Advice on where to do informal post-bacc

[GreenDuck12]

Hey y'all,
After two years of teaching with Teach for America, I've decided to go back to school to take pre-med classes. Based on what I have read, taking classes at a community college is not advisable.For purposes of cost, I'm ruling out formal post-bacc programs in favor of informal post-bacc at a four year public university in Massachusetts. I would like your take on where would be best. My options are:

UMass Amherst

Umass Boston

Umass Lowell

Worcester State University

All of these, once admitted, allow access to pre-med advisors and offer the required classes year round. The biggest difference is the size and prestige of the university and the availability of research. Umass Amherst has the largest research presence, then Umass Boston, and finally Umass Lowell with the smallest. Should I factor in the size of the university when making a decision about where to go? Or should I go for the closest, least expensive option?

A little about me I graduated with a BA in Spanish, Philosophy, and Literature from a public university with a 3.7 GPA, honors in Spanish, and Phi Beta Kappa. sGPA was a 3.5 with 3 graded classes. No research experience besides for seminar classes in Spanish and volunteer experience with local schools, food bank. I also designed a mentor program that was adopted by the university for students from traditionally underrepresented backgrounds. I'm just finishing up a Master of Education degree at a university in New England with a 3.7 GPA.

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[tmn]

If I were you I would choose the cheapest, closest option. The consensus here is that prestige counts for very little.

1) Get good grades
2) Minimize debt
3) Win

 

[GreenDuck12]

If I were you I would choose the cheapest, closest option. The consensus here is that prestige counts for very little.

1) Get good grades
2) Minimize debt
3) Win

Hey tmn,
Thanks for the post. I've also read that prestige isn't incredibly significant but I wasn't sure how that was factored in by state medical programs who may be more familiar with in state programs.

 

[QuentinT88]

Prestige matters more for "prestigious"med schools (Hopkins, Stanford, etc). Otherwise, go where you can minimize debt and get As in the sciences

 

[theseeker4]

Hey tmn,
Thanks for the post. I've also read that prestige isn't incredibly significant but I wasn't sure how that was factored in by state medical programs who may be more familiar with in state programs.

You MIGHT get a sliver of an advantage at one particular medical school if you are going to school X instead of school Y, but it would be nearly impossible to determine if an advantage really exists. You can look at the numbers the med schools publish, about how many students from particular schools apply vs. get in each year, if the med school publishes that data, but any difference seen might be based on other factors, and not actually reflect a bias by the medical school.

These things are pretty minor concerns. How much debt you will be going into at each undergrad school should be your first concern, followed possibly by research if you want to do research, fit, what you like better, etc.

Regarding prestige, if you are not going to a linked, official post-bac program, and you didn't attend a "top" undergrad for your bachelor's degree, I doubt the prestige of the school you do your informal post-bac at will have any influence on your application at all.

 

[QuentinT88]

@theseeker4 lets say the OP did go to a top school for undergrad. Are you implying that if so, then adcoms would factor in the prestige of the post bacc school?

 

[theseeker4]

@theseeker4 lets say the OP did go to a top school for undergrad. Are you implying that if so, then adcoms would factor in the prestige of the post bacc school?

Top medical schools might look at going to a top school for undergrad, but then taking all the pre-reqs for med school later at an "easier" or less prestigious schools, as dodging tough weed-out classes. While most medical schools likely wouldn't care much at all as long as the grades are solid, top schools might not like it much, and at a minimum would probably ask why a student chose that particular school for their pre-reqs.

Please note that this is definitely conjecture on my part, based on third-hand knowledge, so definitely defer to adcoms and the like if they disagree with me.

 

[Gurby]

I just went through making this decision. If you're in MA and anywhere near Boston, I came to the conclusion that the best choice is Harvard Extension. You have UMass Boston on your list, so assume you'd be open to going into the city for classes.

While the Harvard Summer School is very expensive, the Extension School is very affordable: 3 credit class + 1 credit lab = $1250, which is a little more than half of what it would cost to go to UMass Amherst. It's probably cheaper than all of the other options on your list, though living near Boston or commuting in is painful if you drive, or expensive (but very pleasant!) if you take the MBTA.

I think HES is really a no-brainer:
- It's outrageously cheap, costing only a little bit more than what you would pay at a community college.
- You get the Harvard name on your app and the opportunity to get letters from Harvard professors. If you're in the HCP program, you get a composite/committee letter when you apply.
- So far (and I've only taken summer gen chem), the courses are more rigorous and the caliber of students is much high than anything I've experienced before (I went to Northeastern for undergrad). This might be a bad thing if you needed GPA repair, but I think it would benefit someone in your position assuming you can handle the coursework.
- Endless opportunities in Boston to do research, get clinical experience, etc.


Just fwiw, a friend of mine who actually went to UMass Med and was involved with admissions there strongly advised that I go to HES. I'm very pleased with the decision so far.

 

[GreenDuck12]

I just went through making this decision. If you're in MA and anywhere near Boston, I came to the conclusion that the best choice is Harvard Extension. You have UMass Boston on your list, so assume you'd be open to going into the city for classes.

While the Harvard Summer School is very expensive, the Extension School is very affordable: 3 credit class + 1 credit lab = $1250, which is a little more than half of what it would cost to go to UMass Amherst. It's probably cheaper than all of the other options on your list, though living near Boston or commuting in is painful if you drive, or expensive (but very pleasant!) if you take the MBTA.

I think HES is really a no-brainer:
- It's outrageously cheap, costing only a little bit more than what you would pay at a community college.
- You get the Harvard name on your app and the opportunity to get letters from Harvard professors. If you're in the HCP program, you get a composite/committee letter when you apply.
- So far (and I've only taken summer gen chem), the courses are more rigorous and the caliber of students is much high than anything I've experienced before (I went to Northeastern for undergrad). This might be a bad thing if you needed GPA repair, but I think it would benefit someone in your position assuming you can handle the coursework.
- Endless opportunities in Boston to do research, get clinical experience, etc.


Just fwiw, a friend of mine who actually went to UMass Med and was involved with admissions there strongly advised that I go to HES. I'm very pleased with the decision so far.

Hey Gurby,
Thanks for the post! I hadn't looked into the extension school before your post but I'm curious how you are enjoying the structure of it? From what I can tell, based on the website, the classes are one day a week for two or three hours. With this structure do you find yourself learning the material on your own or? Also, what is your background that brought you to HES if you don't mind my asking?

 

[SN12357]

I just went through making this decision. If you're in MA and anywhere near Boston, I came to the conclusion that the best choice is Harvard Extension. You have UMass Boston on your list, so assume you'd be open to going into the city for classes.

While the Harvard Summer School is very expensive, the Extension School is very affordable: 3 credit class + 1 credit lab = $1250, which is a little more than half of what it would cost to go to UMass Amherst. It's probably cheaper than all of the other options on your list, though living near Boston or commuting in is painful if you drive, or expensive (but very pleasant!) if you take the MBTA.

I think HES is really a no-brainer:
- It's outrageously cheap, costing only a little bit more than what you would pay at a community college.
- You get the Harvard name on your app and the opportunity to get letters from Harvard professors. If you're in the HCP program, you get a composite/committee letter when you apply.
- So far (and I've only taken summer gen chem), the courses are more rigorous and the caliber of students is much high than anything I've experienced before (I went to Northeastern for undergrad). This might be a bad thing if you needed GPA repair, but I think it would benefit someone in your position assuming you can handle the coursework.
- Endless opportunities in Boston to do research, get clinical experience, etc.


Just fwiw, a friend of mine who actually went to UMass Med and was involved with admissions there strongly advised that I go to HES. I'm very pleased with the decision so far.

I completely agree with everything said here and Harvard Extension is the unanimous first choice by everyone I knew in Boston doing a post-bacc for anything. Most of us had experience with other options (UMass, northeastern, bunker hill cc) to fill in things that the summer scheduling at Harvard Extension made difficult. There really is no comparison on price or quality.

Be appropriately warned, though, the classes ARE rigorous and if you want easy As go elsewhere.

 

[Gurby]

Hey Gurby,
Thanks for the post! I hadn't looked into the extension school before your post but I'm curious how you are enjoying the structure of it? From what I can tell, based on the website, the classes are one day a week for two or three hours. With this structure do you find yourself learning the material on your own or? Also, what is your background that brought you to HES if you don't mind my asking?

There is an annual thread about the HES program that could give you some insight:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/official-harvard-extension-2014-thread.1048266/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/official-harvard-extension-2013-thread.974016/

I actually just started this program at Harvard Summer School, taking Gen Chem. I've been very impressed with the teaching and structure of the course, but this is an accelerated summer program and not representative of the normal HES. The guy teaching summer chem (Tucci) is the same prof who teaches it at HES during the school year, so I can guarantee you'll have at least one great teacher! Can't speak to the other classes, but I'm sure they are similarly well-taught.

I think the HES schedule should work well for me. I'm taking 2 courses this coming fall/spring. Bio will meet Mon/Wed nights, and Physics will meet on Tuesday night with a lab earlier in the day. This leaves me with Thurs/Fri/Sat to work a clinical job, and all day Sunday for studying.

With science material you really need to put the effort in to learn material on your own no matter how it is set up. There is a lot of math and application of concepts, and you won't do well if you expect to be able to just show up to lectures and then take the test. You'll definitely need to do a lot of self-study and practice problems to master the material.

I was computer science major in undergrad, switched to music, have been playing/teaching/tutoring for a few years. Became an EMT last year with the intention of doing it part time as an extra source of income, but became interested in medicine through that exposure and now I'm hoping to get into med school.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have 15 more pages of practice problems and 2 practice exams to do before our last Gen Chem exam tomorrow!

 

[GreenDuck12]

I completely agree with everything said here and Harvard Extension is the unanimous first choice by everyone I knew in Boston doing a post-bacc for anything. Most of us had experience with other options (UMass, northeastern, bunker hill cc) to fill in things that the summer scheduling at Harvard Extension made difficult. There really is no comparison on price or quality.

Be appropriately warned, though, the classes ARE rigorous and if you want easy As go elsewhere.

Hey SN12357,
Thanks for the post. I'm glad I heard more about the HES program. Out of curiosity what was your experience with the program? What was the size of your classes? Were the professors helpful? Was it possible to get involved with a research lab on campus? Also, how successful were students at matriculating to med schools without an Ivy League undergraduate degree?

Also, what was difficult with the summer scheduling at HES?

I would be thrilled to take classes that are rigorous but I would also be looking for professors that are willing to help students learn the material.

Thanks!

 

[SN12357]

Hey SN12357,
Thanks for the post. I'm glad I heard more about the HES program. Out of curiosity what was your experience with the program? What was the size of your classes? Were the professors helpful? Was it possible to get involved with a research lab on campus? Also, how successful were students at matriculating to med schools without an Ivy League undergraduate degree?

Also, what was difficult with the summer scheduling at HES?

I would be thrilled to take classes that are rigorous but I would also be looking for professors that are willing to help students learn the material.

Thanks!

Lectures are huge but sections are small and frequent and there are many knowledgeable TAs (at least, in the basic science classes) so getting one-on-one help is not difficult. This also makes getting letters straightforward as the TAs contribute their comments to the letters the profs write.

The difficulty with summer scheduling is that technically 'Harvard Extension' doesn't exist during the summer. The administrative machinery is used for 'Harvard Summer School', which is aimed more at undergraduates. It's much more expensive and the classes often meet intensively during the daytime, which is an obvious no-go for those of us who worked full-time. Thus, it was common for people working full time to supplement HES courses with classes from other institutions during the summer.

In terms of getting involved in a research lab on campus, I don't really know. As a post-bacc you need to think more outside the box in terms of what opportunities you pursue. Many people in the HES program worked in research at the Harvard teaching hospitals. They're administratively separate from the university so it's not really 'on campus' or through the HES program, but many research labs and groups do like to hire premeds if you can give them a reasonable commitment (2 years is typical). Harvard University + the teaching hospitals is huge and there are many other schools in the city, obviously, so if you want to be involved in research you should be able to make that happen one way or the other.

I don't know what the success rate is in terms of people without an Ivy undergrad vs. with one, but there are many successful applicants every year. There is some attrition in the basic science courses, though. This kicks in before the application, not after. I think if you make it through the program with good grades you're in a good position. You are also extremely well prepared for the MCAT, something other programs in the city will not do.

Overall I was completely satisfied with my experience at HES.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Lectures are huge but sections are small and frequent and there are many knowledgeable TAs (at least, in the basic science classes) so getting one-on-one help is not difficult. This also makes getting letters straightforward as the TAs contribute their comments to the letters the profs write.

The difficulty with summer scheduling is that technically 'Harvard Extension' doesn't exist during the summer. The administrative machinery is used for 'Harvard Summer School', which is aimed more at undergraduates. It's much more expensive and the classes often meet intensively during the daytime, which is an obvious no-go for those of us who worked full-time. Thus, it was common for people working full time to supplement HES courses with classes from other institutions during the summer.

In terms of getting involved in a research lab on campus, I don't really know. As a post-bacc you need to think more outside the box in terms of what opportunities you pursue. Many people in the HES program worked in research at the Harvard teaching hospitals. They're administratively separate from the university so it's not really 'on campus' or through the HES program, but many research labs and groups do like to hire premeds if you can give them a reasonable commitment (2 years is typical). Harvard University + the teaching hospitals is huge and there are many other schools in the city, obviously, so if you want to be involved in research you should be able to make that happen one way or the other.

I don't know what the success rate is in terms of people without an Ivy undergrad vs. with one, but there are many successful applicants every year. There is some attrition in the basic science courses, though. This kicks in before the application, not after. I think if you make it through the program with good grades you're in a good position. You are also extremely well prepared for the MCAT, something other programs in the city will not do.

Overall I was completely satisfied with my experience at HES.

Hey SN12357,
Thanks for the info; I really appreciate it. I didn't realize there was a post bacc option that allowed for employment as well. What would the course schedule look like for completing the pre med required classes at the HES program? I'm assuming it would be gen chem and physics the first year, orgo and bio the second year, with bio chem and genetics/molecular bio the third year? Are there any classes you would recommend for summer terms at northeaster, umass boston, or bunker hill?

 

[SN12357]

Hey SN12357,
Thanks for the info; I really appreciate it. I didn't realize there was a post bacc option that allowed for employment as well. What would the course schedule look like for completing the pre med required classes at the HES program? I'm assuming it would be gen chem and physics the first year, orgo and bio the second year, with bio chem and genetics/molecular bio the third year? Are there any classes you would recommend for summer terms at northeaster, umass boston, or bunker hill?

The most traditional course through the program used to be basically what you describe: gen chem + physics, orgo + bio, biochem in the glide year. This is possible while working full-time although not pleasant. Some people who didn't work full time and wanted to complete everything as quickly as possible might do gen chem over the summer, then orgo + physics + bio in the year. I wouldn't recommend that path to anyone how doesn't have a reasonable math/science background to begin with. Two lab classes at HES is really the max if you're going to be working full time.

I don't actively recommend taking classes elsewhere unless you have to because you're really taking a dive on quality (and paying the same or more--in the case of northeastern, MUCH more, and it's not justified). However if there is one to take a pass on at HES (at least while I was there) it was bio. I'd try and keep gen chem, orgo, and physics at HES if at all possible. Other candidates for the other schools include psych or socio if you need to knock out some social science requirements. Biochem, IIRC, actually is an evening class at Harvard Summer School so that one is a good candidate too.

With the new MCAT things will be changing so I would advise consulting the HES staff before settling on a schedule and always be flexible. If you're planning on getting sponsorship through them apply as early as possible (don't wait until the year you apply) and make sure you know what requirements they're going to set on you. Your GPA is solid already so you probably will only have a minimum number of classes you have to take at HES.

Overall my advice is to not feel rushed taking classes. Set up your post-bacc in a way that builds your application up in the most effective way possible. Don't feel you need to get everything done as soon as possible; focus on getting it done the best way possible.