Advice Please!

[MAJ23]

Hi,

I am a long time lurker, but new to the forum...Please move this if this is not the appropriate forum...Anyways, people here seem very knowledgeable about getting into schools and I was looking for some advice...Here are the "basics":
I'm 24, a 6th year senior. I was a pharmacy student who did not do too well...Some classes I got A's, some B's and C's and I got a few D's and a couple F's. I took one semester off and retook a semester of courses only to improve very slightly. I switched out of pharmacy and became a Biology major with a Chemistry and Spanish minor. Overall, my pharmacy average was a C. My other classes have been similarly average. I have an A in Human Physiology, but a D in Anatomy, which I retook, and got an A (but the transcript just shows it as transfer credit). I have an A in Chemistry, but a C in Organic. My grades range from very good, to poor, mostly in pharmacy classes. My non-pharmacy GPA is 3.2 but my overall is 2.55.
I realize this isn't a competitve GPA, as my adviser told me I have no chance of med school (she told me the same my freshman year when I had a 3.5). I have volunteered at 4 hospitals, a nursing home, and have done mentoring since I was in junior high. My most recent volunteering was probably 3-4 years ago, but I am setting up to do some volunteering this summer. I have also shadowed 2 doctors in the past few months. I have signed up for Kaplan MCAT review (may do Princeton Review) for this summer to take the MCAT in August...I plan to do this as well as volunteering for the summer.
If you're still reading this (thank you), I know that I want to go to medical school and become a physician. It's not the money nor the prestige. I have work experience in other fields, but my experience in the health care field and my love of the work makes me want to be a physician. There is nothing I'd rather do for the rest of my life. I speak 3 languages, play the guitar, make professional websites, car audio/video work, and played sports in high school. I have a lot of understanding of both of my cultures. I think that outside of my GPA, I have more than enough qualifications as a medical student...but my GPA just depresses me whenever I think I have the motiviation to go to the next step. I would greatly appreciate advice on what to do next to achieve my goal. Thank you to those who reply and I'm sorry I wrote a book out of it...If you have more questions, please let me know. I want opinions from people I do not know...Thank you.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[TypeA]

I right there with ya...just further down the road age wise. Personally, I would recommend doing a post-bacc. I think anyone would suggest that to you.

Obviously, you know that with a 2.5 (and without a million $$ donation) your chances are nil at this time. That's the key. This moment isn't the end. Do a search and read the Low GPA thread. It will perk you up as well as give you hope and energy for the work you have ahead.

Don't give up if this is what you want. Just realize that you have a heck of a lot more work along your path.

Good luck.

 

[MAJ23]

Thanks for the advice...I have recently learned about post-bacc programs. Their deadlines have mostly passed (April 1st for UConn, etc.). That would have been perfect for my year off...I want to do something more than just work/volunteer in that time...

 

[TypeA]

Thanks for the advice...I have recently learned about post-bacc programs. Their deadlines have mostly passed (April 1st for UConn, etc.). That would have been perfect for my year off...I want to do something more than just work/volunteer in that time...

What about an informal post-bacc? That's the route that I am taking. Deadlines have not passed for that option.

 

[relentless11]

I'm sorry to say that it will be a tough application to sell to the med schools. I think the adcoms will first notice your low overall undergraduate GPA. Both your non-pharmacy, and overall GPAs are below the average. Specifically a 2.55 GPA will automatically rule you out of schools that screen for GPA AND MCAT. For example, UC med schools have a cut off somewhere from 3.0-3.2. High MCAT or not, you may not get a secondary. Additionally, with 6 years of college, that will be a very low GPA based on A LOT of units. You will have a very challenging (not impossible!) time to get it up.

Now the way I read your post is you are a pharmacy major, NOT a pharmacy student. If you are the latter, as in you are in pharmacy school (to earn a PharmD degree), then your classes will be considered as graduate level coursework, and thus weighted less than undergrad courswork. Also if you dropped out of a PharmD program, thats somewhat frowned upon by med schools. But if you were a pharm major (e.g.: BS in Pharm), then your sole concern would be the GPA.

Although commendable, your extracurriculars will NOT make up for a low GPA. Additionally, according to our director of admissions at UC Davis School of Medicine, med schools may only consider EC's completed during college. You will have to call schools up to confirm this.

Your best bet is to do an informal post-bacc to boost your overall GPA to 2.7-3.0. At least at 2.7 you can get into an official post-bacc program improve your GPA. You will also need to get an MCAT above a 30. It will be hard, but not impossible.

To put things into perspective, I had a 2.65 undergrad GPA back in 2003. I did an informal post-bacc and held a GPA of 3.4. This allowed me to apply to post-bacc programs or grad school. I chose grad school because I wanted to stay at my university, and thus I am currently in a PhD program. I'm currently holding a 4.0 graduate GPA , however my undergrad GPA is somewhere around a 2.8 right now with the post-bacc included. Given that I have 2-3 years left in this program, I will continue to take more undergrad courses in hopes of getting it close or at 3.0. With these combined, and other aspects of my application, I, according to our director of admissions, will be in a FAR FAR better place to apply than I was back in 2003-2004.

One last thing, you should also evaluate why your performance was all over the place. In medicine you try to treat the source of the problem rather than the symptoms. Figure out what the source of your poor performance was, and fix it. Otherwise you will just repeat your performance and dig yourself a deeper hole. Good luck!

 

[MAJ23]

Thank you all for the advice...I don't expect to be magically accepted to schools with such a GPA...What are "informal" post-bacc programs? Thanks...

 

[relentless11]

Thank you all for the advice...I don't expect to be magically accepted to schools with such a GPA...What are "informal" post-bacc programs? Thanks...

Standard post-bacc programs actually require you to meet specific criteria. There is usually a minimum GPA (sometimes MCAT) requirement, and some cases there is also some disadvantage and/or under represented minority status requirement. These programs are structured, where they have you taking other courses like application workshops, study skill improvement classes, etc etc. There is probably some GPA requirement to stay in the program too (3.5?), and you have decent registration priority for classes.

Informal post-bacc is essentially a post-bacc program you made yourself, and structure yourself. You just take classes you want, pay for each unit, and are last priority to register. You can do this through "open campus" or "extension" programs at various universities. The benefits include no admissions criteria, you can essentially do the program with no GPA. Also you can go at your own pace. The problems with informal post-baccs through open campus/extension programs include the cost. Its pretty expensive, and I don't think you are eligible for financial aid.

Through UC Davis Extension, I was paying around $500 per class. To do a full-time quarter, I would have had to pay $2000. Far more than a registered undergrad student. But that was my only alternative, since my school would not accept me for a 2nd bachelors, or accept me into their post-bacc program.

Anyway, just call around, and surf the web for programs in your area that let you do a non-degree earning program. If you can get into another bachelor's program that may work too, and you can be eligible for money. On a side note, have you looked into DO programs? Although your current GPA will probably not get you into DO schools, the fact that DO schools replace bad grades with the best grade may benefit you more in the long run.

 

[njbmd]

My non-pharmacy GPA is 3.2 but my overall is 2.55.
I realize this isn't a competitve GPA, as my adviser told me I have no chance of med school (she told me the same my freshman year when I had a 3.5). I have volunteered at 4 hospitals, a nursing home, and have done mentoring since I was in junior high. My most recent volunteering was probably 3-4 years ago, but I am setting up to do some volunteering this summer. I have also shadowed 2 doctors in the past few months. I have signed up for Kaplan MCAT review (may do Princeton Review) for this summer to take the MCAT in August.

Hi there,
Your biggest problem is your undergraduate GPA. You have to figure out why you have done so poorly and correct your problem(s) before you invest any money in more classes. Are you taking on more than you can handle? Are you having problems with study skills? Do you have too many distractions? Do you need help with test-taking skills? In short, you need to do an honest inventory and correct your problems.

Why are you planning on taking two MCAT review courses? Investigate Kaplan and TPR and figure out which one is best for you. These courses are quite expensive and you don't need both.

You do not need anymore volunteering at this point. You need to be working on your academics. Drop the volunteer work and perhaps take a study skills course.

I would strongly advise NOT taking the August MCAT as you have too much damage control to take care of. You are not going to raise a 2.55 by very much (even with all As) and be ready for the August MCAT. You will be wasting your money and you will likely not do very well on this exam as you have clearly not done very well in your undergraduate coursework. I promise you that the MCAT is not an exam to play with or take for practice.

Get your undergraduate GPA under control first. Figure out where your problems lie and correct them. Prepare for the MCAT when you have corrected your undergraduate problems and take the test only when you are ready.

I am a member of an admissions committee of an allopathic medical school. I can promise you that this year, applications were very high and those applications were very impressive. I do not expect that this trend will go down. This means that you get yourself competitive by working out your problems and then put your best foot forward. This is doable but you need to put the cart behind the horse.

Good luck!
njbmd

 

[MAJ23]

Thank you njbmd...I appreciate your feedback as well. I meant that I would take either Princeton Review or Kaplan, not both...I took the practice MCATs they give, and I don't know if it's any indication, but I got a 31 and a 33. What do you think is the best way of raising my GPA?

 

[QofQuimica]

Thank you njbmd...I appreciate your feedback as well. I meant that I would take either Princeton Review or Kaplan, not both...I took the practice MCATs they give, and I don't know if it's any indication, but I got a 31 and a 33. What do you think is the best way of raising my GPA?

If you're willing to consider the DO option, relentless's advice is good. Allopathic schools average all of your grades together, but osteopathic schools will replace your old low grades with the new (hopefully!) higher one. So you can bring your GPA up above a 3.0 much quicker that way.

You said that you did get some As and Bs in your classes. So you obviously are capable of earning As and Bs, even though you didn't always do it. I would recommend that you take a look at the classes that you did very well in, and try to figure out what it was about those classes that allowed you to succeed. Whatever it was that you did "right" in those classes, you want to try to repeat that in your future classes. Similarly, look at the classes that you earned Ds and Fs in, and try to understand what happened that made your grades so poor. Whatever it was that went "wrong," you need to figure out how to avoid repeating that in the future. There could be any number of reasons why a student would do poorly in a class (laziness, interfering personal issues, reading or math weaknesses, missing pre-reqs, overextending him/herself, lack of interest, too much partying, etc.), but it's impossible for anyone to give you specific advice on how to improve until you have a better idea about what the problem was exactly. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Your MCAT test drive scores are significantly higher than average, and that is an encouraging sign. But I have been teaching MCAT for Kaplan since 1997, and I will warn you that even full-length practice tests are not perfect predictors of your actual performance, let alone these test drives. That is, you cannot count on scoring a 33 on the real test just because you did on one of these test drives (which are not full-length MCATs, incidentally). Most people require two to three months of solid preparation before they are ready for the MCAT, and many non-trads take even longer if they've been out of school for a while and need to re-learn their sciences. I'm telling you this not so that you'll be scared of the MCAT, but so that you don't underestimate the amount of preparation required for it or overestimate your current state of readiness, either. There will occasionally be people who will tell you that they scored 35+ without studying much, but they are the exception that proves the rule. Statistically, chances are very good that you will not be one of them. As njbmd said, you do not want to use the real MCAT to find this out for yourself, and then have a mediocre or poor MCAT score on your record to overcome on top of your GPA.

 

[MAJ23]

Thank you everyone...My school's Pre-Med adviser is useless and I have gotten more useful criticism here than from her...From what you are saying, I will probably not take the MCAT in August (Is it true that this is the last written one?). I will try to raise my GPA, but how do you recommend I do so? Should I do it at another school? Should I retake Organic Chem?...Take Anatomy again? When would I apply to schools/take the MCAT? Anymore advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

 

[Saluki]

Thank you everyone...My school's Pre-Med adviser is useless and I have gotten more useful criticism here than from her...From what you are saying, I will probably not take the MCAT in August (Is it true that this is the last written one?). I will try to raise my GPA, but how do you recommend I do so? Should I do it at another school? Should I retake Organic Chem?...Take Anatomy again? When would I apply to schools/take the MCAT? Anymore advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

I think what you're saying about the MCAT is true, but I'm not sure... I would take some upper level biology and chemistry courses and try to really ace those.... I guess I don't really see a reason to switch schools, unless it's a better option financially. If you were to try to switch to an "easier school", that wouldn't look good, and I think the best thing might be to be able to show that it's your attitude has changed, not your environment... If you got a D or F in Organic, I probably would retake it.... I would take the MCAT fairly early in 2007, so that you have time to retake it if it doesn't go incredibly well... I would apply as early as the AACOMAS (I think that's what the thing for osteopathic schools is called) opens.... And I would apply to a bunch of schools...But this is all guess work- I'm a very traditional student... Take my advice with a couple grains of salt.

 

[MAJ23]

Thanks saluki...I got a C in Organic by the way, should I retake?...Anyone else?
(P.S., I know this isn't the Carrib. forum, but do I have a chance at those schools?)

 

[Saluki]

Thanks saluki...I got a C in Organic by the way, should I retake?...Anyone else?
(P.S., I know this isn't the Carrib. forum, but do I have a chance at those schools?)

I wouldn't retake a course I got a C in; I'd focus on proving myself through the upper level courses.... I don't know that much about the Caribbean schools- maybe you could apply to a mix of DO and Caribbean? I'm not really sure which is harder to get into...

 

[QofQuimica]

Thank you everyone...My school's Pre-Med adviser is useless and I have gotten more useful criticism here than from her...From what you are saying, I will probably not take the MCAT in August (Is it true that this is the last written one?). I will try to raise my GPA, but how do you recommend I do so? Should I do it at another school? Should I retake Organic Chem?...Take Anatomy again? When would I apply to schools/take the MCAT? Anymore advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

Yes, that is true. In 2006, you can either take the optional CBT (computer based test) MCAT, or the pen-and-paper test. Starting in 2007, the MCAT will ONLY be offered as a CBT. This will require adjusting test-taking strategy somewhat, but it won't be as hard of a change as many people make it out to be; the pre-dental students have been taking the DAT as a CBT for many years already. Plus, the USMLE exams are also given on a computer, so all of you pre-meds better get used to the idea of taking tests on computers. Since you're going to take a prep course, you will be specifically prepared for the CBT by your course; you can rest assured that both Kaplan and TPR are making plans to deal with the new format of the test.

Take the MCAT after you have studied and when you feel prepared for it. You are already going to be a non-trad, so one or two more years in the whole scheme of things isn't a big deal if it means you have the time to prepare properly. There is no need to rush to take the MCAT in your case, since your GPA is still so low, and it will take you time to bring it back up. Again, do not take any more classes until you figure out why you did poorly before, and how you can avoid doing poorly in the future. If you're going to apply DO, I would start by re-taking the classes you earned Ds and Fs in. If you replace all of your Ds and Fs with As and Bs, your GPA will very quickly rise above a 3.0. If you want to apply MD, it will take you much longer to raise your GPA, and re-taking the classes will not be as helpful as it is for DO since the new grade gets averaged in with the old one. In that case, you may want to take higher-level courses to prove that you can handle the work.

 

[Dr Trek 1]

I haven't read everyone's replies but I can give you some good generic advice for people in your situation:

1. Retake all prereqs so that you have at least a B+/A- in them.
2. Study very, very hard for the MCAT using whatever method works best for you.
3. Continue volunteering.
4. Apply to lots of MD & DO schools. Also apply to foreign MD schools if you could stand that route.
5. Get accepted and become an excellent physician.


This is is a short method but I promise you it will give you a good chance of an acceptance (and a guaranteed acceptance at a foreign med school).

 

[MAJ23]

Thanks for the replies...The problem is that the only classes I got Ds & Fs in are pharmacy classes, which I cannot retake...Thank you all again. I greatly appreciate the advice.

 

[Dr Trek 1]

Thanks for the replies...The problem is that the only classes I got Ds & Fs in are pharmacy classes, which I cannot retake...Thank you all again. I greatly appreciate the advice.

In that case, in addition to everything else, I would take lots of undergrad classes to boost your GPA to at least a 3.0.