Advice please

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

samtang

Full Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
I will be a third year this summer and I have been interested in rads for a long time but recently I've been visiting this side of SDN to learn more about rad-onc. To make a long story short, I plan on applying to both specialties. From what I've read in order of importance to get an interview: research >= radonc rotations > letters > boards/grades.... is this correct?

I have the basic science research but I don't think I will have time to do a rotation other than at my home school. Is this sufficient to show genuine interest? I see that most other apps try to get big name letters from doing aways at top places.

Members don't see this ad.
 
I will be a third year this summer and I have been interested in rads for a long time but recently I've been visiting this side of SDN to learn more about rad-onc. To make a long story short, I plan on applying to both specialties. From what I've read in order of importance to get an interview: research >= radonc rotations > letters > boards/grades.... is this correct?

I have the basic science research but I don't think I will have time to do a rotation other than at my home school. Is this sufficient to show genuine interest? I see that most other apps try to get big name letters from doing aways at top places.

I would say in terms of getting interviews: research > quality of med school (home program contacts) > letters (most people have great letters) > grades/boards > away rotations.

Aways help you get letters and increase your chances of matching at a specific program but most people match at places they did not do aways at. Many people don't even get interviews at places they rotated through.

Research is very important for the top 10-20 programs and you need some to be considered at most programs.

The quality of your home program is very important. This is where your letters come from and who makes contacts for you.

Grades/boards are also very important.

In summary, there is no magic formula. Most applicants have great scores, grades, and letters. To compete with the phd's at top programs you need to show some dedication to academia (i.e. research). On top of this the interview is very important and the connections you have in the field. That being said if you are deficient in part of your application another part can make up for it. Luck also plays a role.
 
I will be a third year this summer and I have been interested in rads for a long time but recently I've been visiting this side of SDN to learn more about rad-onc. To make a long story short, I plan on applying to both specialties.

One word of advice: Do NOT plan on applying to both specialties. PDs are absolutely swamped with excellent applications from individuals who are entirely commited to that field. They would likely take a dim view of an applicant who was "on the fence", especially given that the fields are so dramatically different. Concentrate less on the "rad" and more on the "onc" to gain a sense of what radiation oncology is all about.

That said, both fields are excellent, and I welcome anyone who is interested in radiation oncology to explore things further. PM me if you have any questions I can answer for you.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Besides the comments that have been made, Rads and Rad Onc do share some similarities on some levels, but by and large, in my opinion, are vastly different fields. On a global level, you have to decide whether you like to "diagnose" or to "treat" for the rest of your career. I would also advise not to apply to the same fields. Most of the people that I know who have done that did not work out well for them.
 
i dont know if i agree with that. there's nothing wrong with saying that if you dont match in one you might be happy in another. many think of medonc as a career before they learn of radonc. there's nothing wrong with that. but of course pds want to know that you favor radonc as your first choice.
One word of advice: Do NOT plan on applying to both specialties. PDs are absolutely swamped with excellent applications from individuals who are entirely commited to that field. They would likely take a dim view of an applicant who was "on the fence", especially given that the fields are so dramatically different. Concentrate less on the "rad" and more on the "onc" to gain a sense of what radiation oncology is all about.

That said, both fields are excellent, and I welcome anyone who is interested in radiation oncology to explore things further. PM me if you have any questions I can answer for you.
 
i dont know if i agree with that. there's nothing wrong with saying that if you dont match in one you might be happy in another. many think of medonc as a career before they learn of radonc. there's nothing wrong with that. but of course pds want to know that you favor radonc as your first choice.

I understand where you're coming from, Steph. I just took the OP to mean that he/she would place relatively equal weight on the two fields during the application process, something which I think would be both ill advised and difficult to reconcile with PDs in both fields. I count myself as one who thought of med onc before deciding upon rad onc, but I would never have thought to intersperse categorical medicine positions on my rad onc rank list.

I suppose the saving grace for the OP is that he has another 1-1.5 years in clinical medicine to gain exposure to these fields, and decide if one resonates with him. I would agree that having the second place specialty listed as a "safety net" at the end of the rank list would be feasible, if not a little unusual.
 
Besides the comments that have been made, Rads and Rad Onc do share some similarities on some levels, but by and large, in my opinion, are vastly different fields. On a global level, you have to decide whether you like to "diagnose" or to "treat" for the rest of your career. I would also advise not to apply to the same fields. Most of the people that I know who have done that did not work out well for them.

There is also a lot of "treating" of tumors in interventional radiology as well with chemo-embo, RFAs and cryo ablations etc. From what I gather, Rad-onc and IR have a lot of similarities. Both are primarily outpatient and both have strong translational research opportunities. Both use a good amount of imaging. Just my opinion. Anyone care to elaborate on the differences? Also, if I do not disclose and am not asked if rad-onc or rads is my first choice, how can a PD find out?
 
There is also a lot of "treating" of tumors in interventional radiology as well with chemo-embo, RFAs and cryo ablations etc. From what I gather, Rad-onc and IR have a lot of similarities. Both are primarily outpatient and both have strong translational research opportunities. Both use a good amount of imaging. Just my opinion. Anyone care to elaborate on the differences? Also, if I do not disclose and am not asked if rad-onc or rads is my first choice, how can a PD find out?

Yes, I would agree with what you said. I wasn't particularly thinking of IR when I was talking about Rads b4, just diagnostic radiology.
 
i think radonc and ir are very different. more later .
 
There is also a lot of "treating" of tumors in interventional radiology as well with chemo-embo, RFAs and cryo ablations etc. From what I gather, Rad-onc and IR have a lot of similarities. Both are primarily outpatient and both have strong translational research opportunities. Both use a good amount of imaging. Just my opinion. Anyone care to elaborate on the differences? Also, if I do not disclose and am not asked if rad-onc or rads is my first choice, how can a PD find out?

I think the main difference is the focus on oncology in rad onc, as opposed to an image-guided proceduralist focus in IR. I don't want to paint all interventionalists with the same brush (which means I'm going to), but two talks I have recently attended dealt with cryo for breast tumors and RFA for lung tumors respectively. The speakers seemed almost willfully ignorant of basic oncologic principles such as margin status, nodal evaluation, and patterns of microscopic tumor spread, although they showed plenty of nice pictures demonstrating how they can fry/freeze the bejeezus out of a radiographic abnormality. This does not IMO equate to good cancer care.

Oncology should be thought of in a very broad sense, as multi-disciplinary care is by far the best care that can be provided. This means that surg-oncs, rad-oncs, and med-oncs need some degree of education in all three disciplines, so they can speak intelligently to their patients about treatment options which may not be under their particular umbrella. This is a fact which is likely under-appreciated by med students, but don't feel flamed because it's also underappreciated by a lot of residents and attendings who don't take care on cancer patients on a regular basis. IR, to my knowledge, does not currently have a provision in their GME for dedicated oncologic training. If they want true inclusion in multi-disciplinary cancer care, they have to include that in their education.

Let me conclude by saying that IR is a very nice field on it's own merits, and one that should be worthy of your consideration if you like imaging and procedures. And no, PDs would likely be none the wiser if you didn't say anything, unless the rads and rad onc PDs at a particular institution are pals who like to talk a lot about the applicants they meet. Just wanted to point out my take on the differences.
 
basically what gville says is right. as a radiation oncologist you are an ONCOLOGIST. as an IR, you are not. you are a procedure oriented physician who uses image guideance to do the procedures, who may have some oncology cases
 
I think the main difference is the focus on oncology in rad onc, as opposed to an image-guided proceduralist focus in IR. I don't want to paint all interventionalists with the same brush (which means I'm going to), but two talks I have recently attended dealt with cryo for breast tumors and RFA for lung tumors respectively. The speakers seemed almost willfully ignorant of basic oncologic principles such as margin status, nodal evaluation, and patterns of microscopic tumor spread, although they showed plenty of nice pictures demonstrating how they can fry/freeze the bejeezus out of a radiographic abnormality. This does not IMO equate to good cancer care.

Oncology should be thought of in a very broad sense, as multi-disciplinary care is by far the best care that can be provided. This means that surg-oncs, rad-oncs, and med-oncs need some degree of education in all three disciplines, so they can speak intelligently to their patients about treatment options which may not be under their particular umbrella. This is a fact which is likely under-appreciated by med students, but don't feel flamed because it's also underappreciated by a lot of residents and attendings who don't take care on cancer patients on a regular basis. IR, to my knowledge, does not currently have a provision in their GME for dedicated oncologic training. If they want true inclusion in multi-disciplinary cancer care, they have to include that in their education.

Let me conclude by saying that IR is a very nice field on it's own merits, and one that should be worthy of your consideration if you like imaging and procedures. And no, PDs would likely be none the wiser if you didn't say anything, unless the rads and rad onc PDs at a particular institution are pals who like to talk a lot about the applicants they meet. Just wanted to point out my take on the differences.


Thanks for your insight as it is definitely better to learn here than to ask/say something crazy when it counts. I guess only a rotation at my home school will help.
 
at present with IR doing their freeze/fry cancer treatments, how is this regarded by rad oncs in terms of turf and the publc's desire for minimally invasive, quick, no side effect tx?
 
I don't think invasiveness is an issue in radonc..I mean, how much less invasive can a treatment get than invisible and intangible?
 
... Or placing tandems, cylinders, rings, ovoids into the vagina and uterus.

I wouldn't say it is a completely non-invasive field. The treatment itself may be 'non-invasive' but the method of delivery may not be.

And, as a mentor told me - all medical interventions are invasive, from listening to the heart to open heart surgery ... it's a matter of degree. The moment you ask an 'invasive' question to the moment you make an incision, you are 'invading' someone's body.

And as far as the difference between IR and rad-onc ... there are many more differences other than the procedures. A radiation oncologist is an oncologist. You are one of their cancer doctors. You see them at consult (be it prior to the surgery, post-operatively, in lieu of surgery, or palliatively) and you may end up following them for years. At this stage, IR does not have this level of involvement in patient management. They are 'technicians' (not mean to be a negative connotion, just trying to be descriptive) - they intervene with a procedure that someone else may not be able to do - and they move on. A radiation oncologist is a patient's cancer doctor ... it is different, at least currently.

-S

-S
 
Point taken. I guess what I meant to say is that in terms of turf, I think radonc will win the invasiveness battle in cancer care. Radiation is appealing to many pts if they have the choice between surgery or radiation precisely b/c it is less invasive.

True, brachy can be invasive. But another nice thing about radonc is that there is normally a choice there..if a pt doesn't want seeds implanted in their prostate, it's not like the only other option is radical prostatectomy. We can still offer them external beam..or HDR.
 
And as far as the difference between IR and rad-onc ... there are many more differences other than the procedures. A radiation oncologist is an oncologist. You are one of their cancer doctors. You see them at consult (be it prior to the surgery, post-operatively, in lieu of surgery, or palliatively) and you may end up following them for years. At this stage, IR does not have this level of involvement in patient management. They are 'technicians' (not mean to be a negative connotion, just trying to be descriptive) - they intervene with a procedure that someone else may not be able to do - and they move on. A radiation oncologist is a patient's cancer doctor ... it is different, at least currently.

-S

-S

good point
 
Top