Advice please

[Arovetli]

Non-traditional applicant with a 3.48 Overall and 3.9 Science. Haven't taken MCAT yet but planning to soon.
I have worked 4 years in Fire/EMS then 2 years as a SWAT Medic/Police Officer, followed by a return to full time EMS as a paramedic for the last couple of years. I also volunteered as an EMS instructor for 5 years, and volunteered as a Big Brother for a short while. I have an employee of the year nomination and an official commendation from work. I believe I have strong LOR's from work/volunteering, probably decent, perhaps not stellar, ones from science professors. I didn't go to class much as I worked at least 60 hrs./week. I also did a fair amount of shadowing D.O's.

Now for the bad:
In my earlier years I was very undecided as to career and did poorly academically. I have a liberal arts major and 18 W's on my transcript. I attended 8 undergraduate schools. I completed a post bac which included a couple of retakes but I now have all A's in the science pre-req's.

Thoughts? Is my recent performance enough to overcome negatives? I'm really wanting to attend PCOM-GA as it is close to family. Thanks and Happy New Year.

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[FrkyBgStok]

Cant talk about pcom, but what is the gpa of all the classes you have taken as AACOMAS would see it? That's a big piece of information.

 

[Arovetli]

3.48 overall/3.9 science is my AACOMAS GPA, the total for all courses I have taken. I apologize as my initial post is unclear.

**Edited original post to clear this up**

 

[plumhill]

Your recent performance, and your sGPA, are definitely good. The 18 W's is a little worrisome, but if you can explain your situation then it might be alright. It's hard to really state your chances without an MCAT score though...

 

[Arovetli]

Any advice as to what score would be competitive for my situation?

 

[FrkyBgStok]

28+ will get it. Assuming all your other stuff is good, a 28 should garnish multiple acceptances. 25+ would still be competitive as your science gpa rocks and you cGPA is spot on average, but you lose options. So 28 sounds like a good goal to me.

 

[BottomUpDoc]

ADVICE PLEASE

I am considering applying to a few DO schools at the end of this semester.
If accepted I would not be able to finish my degree.

I am 27 and will have 128 credit hours completed by the end of this semester. I am an engineering technology major with all science courses completed except organic chem (next year). I have a 4.0 GPA for the last two semesters (22 credit hours).
I feel like finishing these engineering courses is a big waste of time. I havent taken the MCAT yet but could take it this summer when I apply.
Do you think admissions would agree that finishing these courses is not necessary?
Instead of continuing to take engineering courses this semester, I could just focus on studying for the MCAT and retaking 2 C's. (stat boosting)

expected cGPA 3.35
expected sGPA 3.83 depending if engineering technology courses are considered science
expected MCAT 28-34
Shadowed across seas in Nov
Volunteer in the ER every week and have about 100 hours.
Teach supplemental instruction for general chemistry.

Q. With theses stats I know i have a good chance with a competed BS but how do they look w/o the completed degree keeping in mind that taking additional engineering technology courses is pointless.

What are my chances?

 

[FrkyBgStok]

it will look like crap. they will require you to finish your degree. my acceptances is conditional on my final transcript with a big bold that says that my degree must be awarded. you aren't going to get in without a degree. finish it. you don't have to finish it before you apply, but you do have to finish it before you matriculate.

and this is called hijacking a thread.

 

[BottomUpDoc]

I agree but I want advice from someone that has experience in this area and with all due disrespect, you have none.

You start new threads and people cry then you post a question on a current thread and people cry. This thread is dead and I didn't want to start another with the exact same topic go back under your bridge.

 

[seap3]

I agree but I want advice from someone that has experience in this area and with all due disrespect, you have none.

Nobody has experience with this. Everyone who reasonably expects to attend medical school plans to have a degree by matriculation. Frky just told it like it is.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I agree but I want advice from someone that has experience in this area and with all due disrespect, you have none.

You start new threads and people cry then you post a question on a current thread and people cry. This thread is dead and I didn't want to start another with the exact same topic go back under your bridge.

No experience? I received 2 acceptances before I withdrew my 6 other interviews both acceptances conditional on completing my degree. And looking through the DO version of the MSAR has basically every school showing that 100% of the students have a bach degree or higher. I am not making it up, it is in the book. So I am not sure what experience I need. Maybe to read. I do have that experience. I am not trying to be a dick I am telling you that so you don't attempt to get in, don't complete your degree and they say eff off and by the time you find all of this out, you are behind the ball for the next season.

But I am sorry. You are a special snowflake.

 

[BottomUpDoc]

I still wouldnt say you have experience in trying to apply w/o the BS.

I agree that it is a long shot but what do I lose by trying?
Would I have to ask for new LOR for the next year?
Is/has that been an issue in the past?

Dont be sorry I appreciate input.

 

[DrWily]

I still wouldnt say you have experience in trying to apply w/o the BS.

Basically, no one HERE will have experience in applying without a BS because it's absurd to think about applying without a Bachelors. SDN is home to the most neurotic pre-meds.

I agree that it is a long shot but what do I lose by trying?

Money, time, and next cycle you will be a "RE-APPLICANT". More on this later

Would I have to ask for new LOR for the next year?

No, but you will be a re-applicant, which means you will probably need another LOR to add to the mix.

Is/has that been an issue in the past?

I don't even

Dont be sorry I appreciate input.

He was making fun of you.


Ok so, bottom line is, you have to finish your degree. Who cares if it's worthless? I major'd in chemistry, and I find it worthless to me. But the fact remains that you need to FINISH it. It shows commitment. What are you going to do 3rd/4th year on rotation that you don't enjoy? Just pack up and say, "this isn't worth my time? I hate OB/GYN because I'm not going to be an OB/GYN so I should just skip it?" ADCOMs look at this kind of sh~t too. So finish the damn degree. Like Frky said, 100% of matriculants have Bachelors degrees. Notice the key word, matriculants. People who are attending medical school. It doesn't say 100% of applicants, but matriculants.

Worst case scenario, you apply and waste a bunch of money and time. The following cycle, you will be a re-applicant and have to PROVE what you've done since being rejected to demonstrate your worthiness for medical school. Schools will specifically ask you what you have done to improve and it's harder to go into the process as a re-applicant than as a first time applicant. That's why I say "ONE AND DONE". Apply when you are the most competitive, and in this case, it means finishing your degree.

p.s. don't try to take any shortcuts in this process. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Do it right and save yourself the headaches.

 

[zoomzoom123]

Why are pre-meds so quick to get butt-hurt?!

 

[willen101383]

Why are pre-meds so quick to get butt-hurt?!

Nobody is getting butt hurt. The fact of the matter is that you NEED a bachelors to matriculate into med school. End of story. You cant just matriculate into med school without a bachelors, they will NOT allow that. Its part of the matriculation requirements at EVERY med school as far as I know.

 

[zoomzoom123]

Nobody is getting butt hurt. The fact of the matter is that you NEED a bachelors to matriculate into med school. End of story. You cant just matriculate into med school without a bachelors, they will NOT allow that. Its part of the matriculation requirements at EVERY med school as far as I know.

Haha, sorry about the confusion. What I meant to ask is "Why is BottomUpDoc getting so butt-hurt by FrkyBgStk's straight-forward response?"

 

[BottomUpDoc]

Nobody is getting butt hurt. The fact of the matter is that you NEED a bachelors to matriculate into med school. End of story. You cant just matriculate into med school without a bachelors, they will NOT allow that. Its part of the matriculation requirements at EVERY med school as far as I know.

"I have a med school classmate that is here without a bachelors degree. If you look in the AMCAS book it will tell you what the percentage in each med school class didn't have a bachelors degree. It is usually only around 2-5% of any one class but it happens. However, to get accepted into med school without a bachelors degree you would probably have to be quite the allstar!!"brianjc

 

[SLC]

"I have a med school classmate that is here without a bachelors degree. If you look in the AMCAS book it will tell you what the percentage in each med school class didn't have a bachelors degree. It is usually only around 2-5% of any one class but it happens. However, to get accepted into med school without a bachelors degree you would probably have to be quite the allstar!!"brianjc

So are you "quite the all-star"? Somehow I doubt it, and even if you were, you'd still be pretty much SOL for getting in without the degree.

Is there some pressing reason you're unwilling to complete your degree? Did you sleep with the dean's wife or something, and figure you've got a finite amount of time before you get caught?

All I can say is that you can forget it, nobody gets in without a 4 year degree at least!

 

[thewilliams1]

 

[DrWily]

I'll probably bet $10 the people in medical school without bachelor's degrees have a PharmD. Some PharmD programs skip the BS altogether and go straight for the PhD. In this case, it is likely to get into medical school without a BS.

Like I said earlier, why even risk the headache? Just finish the degree and then increase your chances from 5% to 70% (generous) with your stats.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I love how the guy posts a quote about being an all-star, sports a 3.35 cGPA and claims he will get his pick of DO schools. This is thread is increasing in value to me.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Seems BottomUpDoc is close to getting a rude awakening. I say let him apply. Some people must learn by experience.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

i have a liberal arts major and 18 w's on my transcript. I attended 8 undergraduate schools.

o_o

 

[Arovetli]

o_o

Thanks for un-hijacking my thread.

Anyways I realize it looks bad, however I am hoping that my postbac performance/clinical experience will be enough to overcome it. Thoughts?

 

[DrWily]

Thanks for un-hijacking my thread.

Anyways I realize it looks bad, however I am hoping that my postbac performance/clinical experience will be enough to overcome it. Thoughts?

it will look bad, but it can be overcome. The thing is that your GPAs look great despite the 18 Ws... this will be a red flag as "GPA Guarding" if you can understand that. However, given your experience and post-bacc work, you will probably get interviews. You can explain the 18 Ws in the interviews.

Good luck.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

it will look bad, but it can be overcome. The thing is that your GPAs look great despite the 18 Ws... this will be a red flag as "GPA Guarding" if you can understand that. However, given your experience and post-bacc work, you will probably get interviews. You can explain the 18 Ws in the interviews.

Good luck.

+1 especially the last sentence. Plan on it. If they don't ask you, cool, but it is generally a red flag so plan on explaining. If you have a good reason, or can come up with one, you should be fine.

 

[TriagePreMed]

I will have to disagree with my friends here. I don't think things will go as smoothly as they think. A standard bachelors is 40 classes (120 units if each class is 3 units). You have 18 W's (basically half a bachelors degree). In addition, you have attended 8 different institutions.

I'm not going to say you can't get an acceptance, but if your file was in my hands, I'd have some heavy reservations before considering admitting you. I'd have to see what was the spread among W's, and if you had multiple W's on a Pre-req or a recommended courses, I'd probably pass on you. One of the rare instances when a high GPA doesn't mean much of anything. Also, if you retook classes where you had F's, D's, and C's, I would become even more suspicious about your ability to succeed because it would mean tons of W's + tons of bad grades. In my eyes, getting an "A" on a retake is, at the least, expected and logical why MD schools would average the grades to a C.

If you have at least 45 continuous units of post-bac without W's and an excellent MCAT performance, I'd give your file a second look.

Please don't take this as an attack, OP. I'm simply sharing a different point of view that may be encountered as you apply.

 

[Arovetli]

I will have to disagree with my friends here. I don't think things will go as smoothly as they think. A standard bachelors is 40 classes (120 units if each class is 3 units). You have 18 W's (basically half a bachelors degree). In addition, you have attended 8 different institutions.

I'm not going to say you can't get an acceptance, but if your file was in my hands, I'd have some heavy reservations before considering admitting you. I'd have to see what was the spread among W's, and if you had multiple W's on a Pre-req or a recommended courses, I'd probably pass on you. One of the rare instances when a high GPA doesn't mean much of anything. Also, if you retook classes where you had F's, D's, and C's, I would become even more suspicious about your ability to succeed because it would mean tons of W's + tons of bad grades. In my eyes, getting an "A" on a retake is, at the least, expected and logical why MD schools would average the grades to a C.

If you have at least 45 continuous units of post-bac without W's and an excellent MCAT performance, I'd give your file a second look.

Please don't take this as an attack, OP. I'm simply sharing a different point of view that may be encountered as you apply.

I appreciate your candor, I know it will be an uphill battle. Thanks to all for the input.

 

[DrWily]

I will have to disagree with my friends here. I don't think things will go as smoothly as they think. A standard bachelors is 40 classes (120 units if each class is 3 units). You have 18 W's (basically half a bachelors degree). In addition, you have attended 8 different institutions.

I'm not going to say you can't get an acceptance, but if your file was in my hands, I'd have some heavy reservations before considering admitting you. I'd have to see what was the spread among W's, and if you had multiple W's on a Pre-req or a recommended courses, I'd probably pass on you. One of the rare instances when a high GPA doesn't mean much of anything. Also, if you retook classes where you had F's, D's, and C's, I would become even more suspicious about your ability to succeed because it would mean tons of W's + tons of bad grades. In my eyes, getting an "A" on a retake is, at the least, expected and logical why MD schools would average the grades to a C.

If you have at least 45 continuous units of post-bac without W's and an excellent MCAT performance, I'd give your file a second look.

Please don't take this as an attack, OP. I'm simply sharing a different point of view that may be encountered as you apply.

I do understand you are just giving another point of view, but this OP has significant extracurriculars including work experience in a medical related field. As per his initial post, it sounds like his 18Ws and 8 different undergrads are from years ago since he is a non-trad with 10+ years of work experience. Given these circumstances, I would think that ADCOMs (being holistic and all, amirite) would overlook the poor educational choices at least enough to get him an interview to ask him WTF he was thinking. But we really cannot assess anything accurately without an MCAT score. Also, I haven't heard that GA-PCOM is particularly tough to get into, but the OP may still have an uphill battle.

 

[GlimmerGlass]

OP, you will want to make sure you get at least an 8 or better in each sub-section on the MCAT b/c PCOM and PCOM-GA are pretty strict on wanting to see these particular sub-scores. Of course try to get the best possible score you can.

I personally know one person who went to medical school without finishing his undergrad. He was getting an engineering degree and did not need to finish before starting med school since his particular med school only required a minimum number of completed hours and pre-reqs. Now this was probably 10 years ago he did this so not sure if things have changed since then but it is worth looking into.

 

[BottomUpDoc]

I love how the guy posts a quote about being an all-star, sports a 3.35 cGPA and claims he will get his pick of DO schools. This is thread is increasing in value to me.

I was under the impression from the underdogs thread that cGPA was not as highly regarded as sGPA.

"The average matriculant (according to the 2009 matriculant data: 26.19 MCAT, 3.35sGPA) will then have their "applicant score" as 46.60, as per the formula: (26.19/2) + (3.35*10) = 46.60" HockeyDr09

 

[DrWily]

I was under the impression from the underdogs thread that cGPA was not as highly regarded as sGPA.

"The average matriculant (according to the 2009 matriculant data: 26.19 MCAT, 3.35sGPA) will then have their "applicant score" as 46.60, as per the formula: (26.19/2) + (3.35*10) = 46.60" HockeyDr09

Yes, but having a 3.35 cGPA does not make you an all-star. Even if sGPA is more highly regarded than cGPA, they still look at cGPA.

Also the new formula is:


cGPA * 10 + sGPA *10 + MCAT = applicant score

93.3 average applicant

95.5 average matriculant

 

[TriagePreMed]

I do understand you are just giving another point of view, but this OP has significant extracurriculars including work experience in a medical related field. As per his initial post, it sounds like his 18Ws and 8 different undergrads are from years ago since he is a non-trad with 10+ years of work experience. Given these circumstances, I would think that ADCOMs (being holistic and all, amirite) would overlook the poor educational choices at least enough to get him an interview to ask him WTF he was thinking. But we really cannot assess anything accurately without an MCAT score. Also, I haven't heard that GA-PCOM is particularly tough to get into, but the OP may still have an uphill battle.

I agree that the OP has many positive things going on for a less than ideal situation, but unless he's taken a sufficient amount of coursework during post-bacc with stellar grades, his academic prowess will be questioned. I don't think there's any amount of work experience that can trump grades.

Lets hope it all works out well for the OP.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I was under the impression from the underdogs thread that cGPA was not as highly regarded as sGPA.

"The average matriculant (according to the 2009 matriculant data: 26.19 MCAT, 3.35sGPA) will then have their "applicant score" as 46.60, as per the formula: (26.19/2) + (3.35*10) = 46.60" HockeyDr09

stop posting in this thread unless it is in response to the OP. you aren't going to get in without a degree. Everyone already told you that and everyone on the forum is laughing at you because you still think it is possible. An academic all star is a 3.95+ cGPA and sGPA with a 38+ MCAT. If you had those numbers and ridiculous ECs than you would have a very very slim chance of going to med school without a degree. I want to emphasize very slim though. So you keep talking about how you are going to do it, we will keep laughing.

But do it in a different thread.

 

[Arovetli]

But do it in a different thread.

This.

Anyways,

Would a strong MCAT offset the W's? Also, I was working way too much, minimum 60hrs./wk, at one point I held 2 full time jobs hitting 100 hr. weeks while attending school. Later at another job I was on call 24/7 and frequently got called in. I have never been able to go to school full time and focus on education as I have had to work. I did fall behind in classes and had to withdraw alot.

Over the last year I took Inorganic Chem 2, Organic 1 and 2, Physics 1 and 2, made an A in each class all while working 60hrs./week. I was hoping working this many hours and excelling in these courses would help offset previous negatives.

Would it be advisable to mention all the W's and explain them in my personal statement?

Thanks guys.

 

[TriagePreMed]

This.

Anyways,

Would a strong MCAT offset the W's? Also, I was working way too much, minimum 60hrs./wk, at one point I held 2 full time jobs hitting 100 hr. weeks while attending school. Later at another job I was on call 24/7 and frequently got called in. I have never been able to go to school full time and focus on education as I have had to work. I did fall behind in classes and had to withdraw alot.

Over the last year I took Inorganic Chem 2, Organic 1 and 2, Physics 1 and 2, made an A in each class all while working 60hrs./week. I was hoping working this many hours and excelling in these courses would help offset previous negatives.

Would it be advisable to mention all the W's and explain them in my personal statement?

Thanks guys.

It might be enough, but if those courses are retake, I would say no. You need new and challenging coursework with A's to show you can handle med school.

No idea on personal statements.

 

[BottomUpDoc]

stop posting in this thread unless it is in response to the OP. you aren't going to get in without a degree. Everyone already told you that and everyone on the forum is laughing at you because you still think it is possible. An academic all star is a 3.95+ cGPA and sGPA with a 38+ MCAT. If you had those numbers and ridiculous ECs than you would have a very very slim chance of going to med school without a degree. I want to emphasize very slim though. So you keep talking about how you are going to do it, we will keep laughing.

But do it in a different thread.

Dont get your panties in a bind. If you get annoyed so easily do you really think being a doctor is a good idea? I stated earlier that I wanted info from someone who had experience in this and you did not. You felt it necessary to tell me how big your balls were then you look up all of my other posts in an attempt to bash me, kinda creepy get a life. Note that I haven't looked up anything about you, a premed w/ control and anger issues isn't that interesting. It must be hard for you when you tell people what to do and they don't listen. Something I learned when shadowing recently is not to make judgments too early but then I accused you of being a troll immediately. Im relieved to see that my initial thoughts seem to be correct.

My quote by brainjc about getting into a med school w/o a bachelors was not to say that I could but rather to correct people (Frkybgstok) that were implying this didn't happen or it is impossible. As many hours as you spend on this site you of course knew this but presented false info anyway. Its apparent that people are so used to battling on this site that they are constantly on the defense. In the future I will explain better.

To avoid thread-jacking I will comment on the OP's situation.
Even though I have no experience in applying with 18 w's I would just do some retakes, study hard for the MCAT, and prepare a response to an interview question about this. Most importantly, do not apply w/o a bachelors degree bc people on SDN will get upset.
Good Luck

 

[TriagePreMed]

... If you get annoyed so easily do you really think being a doctor is a good idea?

...I wanted info from someone who had experience in this and you did not...

... were implying this didn't happen or it is impossible.

We pre-meds love to pretend to know what makes a good physician or not, don't we?

FrkyBgStok actually has experience with your situation. He applied and was told that his acceptance is on the condition that he finished his degree. How is that not relevant? At the least it should show you that the schools he applied to were only interested if he finished his bachelors.

If you feel strongly about applying without intending to finish your undergrad degree, go ahead. You're an iffy candidate (no degree) with average (below average at most reputable and well known osteopathic schools) stats at best. If what you want is for someone without an undergrad degree that went to med school to advise you, by now you've seen nobody steps up to that plate, mostly because these people are rare an in between. Stop hijacking the thread and being a dick for no reason.

 

[JustMeditate]

I stated earlier that I wanted info from someone who had experience in this and you did not.

Pardon me, Mr. Genius, but if you're looking for solid advice on this issue, why on earth are you asking a bunch of strangers on a forum? Stop being lazy, actually call admissions at a few medical schools of interest (don't tell them your real name), and see what they think. I sincerely doubt any medical school you call will say, "Oh, yeah! We totally dig kids without degrees!" But, hey, what do I know, right? I'm just an idiot pre-med, and you know us pre-meds, we don't have any idea how to apply to medical school!

You don't like our advice? Then quit bugging us with your stupid questions and bother someone else. Thanks in advance.

 

[JustMeditate]

P.S. I apologize to everyone else for feeding the troll. I have a weak will.

 

[TriagePreMed]

... feeding the troll. I have a weak will.

Story of my life.

 

[Arovetli]

Story of my life.

LOL. The douchebag who hijacked this thread notwithstanding, I appreciate the feedback. I guess I will just have to see how it turns out.

 

[DrWily]

LOL. The douchebag who hijacked this thread notwithstanding, I appreciate the feedback. I guess I will just have to see how it turns out.

In your case, I would apply as soon as the applications opens up. However, based on the most recent information, you only retook the pre-requisite classes and nothing demonstrating upper level science courses. This will be a red flag as well. If at all possible, I would take some of the higher level classes and get ALL A's to demonstrate your academic prowess. If work interferes with your ability to do so, then its possible you will have to take on a lesser work load.

I will agree with TriagePreMed that in this case, having no higher level science coursework, will reflect poorly even with your extensive work experience. It's not impossible though, as I know of some English majors etc. that have gotten in with only the pre-requisite coursework. This is why I advise you apply anyway. Just understand that you aren't in the best position and these are the issues that will drag your application down.