advice?

[psychobabbler]

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Hi Everyone,

I recently stumbled across this site while looking into general info for medical school and with good timing because I am having a bit of a dilemna. I hope ya'll don't mind as I've posted something similar elsewhere but havent gotten a response so I'd appreciate it if you guys had any feedback.

I will be starting a doctoral program in clinical psychology this fall. I was very happy to have made it into a fully funded research program right out of my undergraduate program. I've always wanted to be a researcher of mental health issues, so clinical psychology was the natural choice for me. And truthfully, I had never previously considered medical school as an avenue to meet my career goals. However (and I wont go into too much detail here), I have been wondering if a medical education might better suit my needs and research aims in the field of mental health.

Has anyone else been in this position where they were in a doctoral program for psychology and decided to go med school/psychiatry instead? If so, how did you broach this with your mentor? Is a student of clinical psychology looked down on for med school admissions?

If I seriously want to pursue this, I have quite a lot of work to do over the next couple of years. I never took any hard science classes in college- so I'd need to take all 8 or so of the prereqs. Although I was strong in the sciences in high school, I realize that was years ago and college level science is a different ball game! Truthfully, I may not even be equipped for this. But I figure I'll never know if I don't try.

So I plan on riding a year out in my graduate program and then, if I still feel strongly about it, meeting with the premed advisor at my graduate school and start taking the prereqs within the next year.

I am worried that I would be ostrasized in my graduate program- like they wasted an acceptance on me or something. If that is the case, that will be very hard for me to deal with. Is it better to be up front and tell them or to leave them in the dark?

Anyway, any advice from you guys would be much appreciated. Feel free to private message me too. Thanks again!

 

[Psyclops]

I've always wanted to be a researcher of mental health issues, so clinical psychology was the natural choice for me. And truthfully, I had never previously considered medical school as an avenue to meet my career goals. However (and I wont go into too much detail here), I have been wondering if a medical education might better suit my needs and research aims in the field of mental health.

If that truly is hte case, and you fell pretty sure, then I wouldn't worry about the MD. When it comes to research the MD isn't going to be a huge advantage, especially considering the debt. I work for a large behavioral genetics lab, that does large clinical trials for drugs, among other things. The PI was educated as a PhD in clinical psychology.

Naturaly alot of variables enter into these kinds of decisions, but I don't think you need to get the MD. Especially not to the exclusion of a research oriented degree.

You may PM me if you want more infor.

 

[PublicHealth]

If that truly is hte case, and you fell pretty sure, then I wouldn't worry about the MD. When it comes to research the MD isn't going to be a huge advantage, especially considering the debt. I work for a large behavioral genetics lab, that does large clinical trials for drugs, among other things. The PI was educated as a PhD in clinical psychology.

Naturaly alot of variables enter into these kinds of decisions, but I don't think you need to get the MD. Especially not to the exclusion of a research oriented degree.

You may PM me if you want more infor.

Right, but what about pay? Isn't it much more for psychiatrists in pharma? What does your PI make?

PhD + MD may be the way to go (albeit long way).

 

[PublicHealth]

Finances is not a simple answer between psychiatry and psychology. Take a clinical neuropsychology route vs psychiatry as an example.

Potentially a neuropsychologists trained in a good, well funded program may have no debt. The average income for neuropsychology is about ~$100,000 a year.

An MD may easily have $100,000 in debt. For psychiatry, the average income is about $150,000. Throw on high malpractice insurance costs and the debt load and that's not so appealing.

Good point. Forensic neuropsychology pays especially well. But do neuropsychologists fresh out of post-doc make $100K/year? No. Those average figures are for neuropsychologists who have been in practice for variable number of years. Median salary for neuropsychologists licensed for 1-5 years was $63.5K/year (Sweet et al., 2003). In contrast, a psychiatrist fresh out of residency will easily secure a job paying a minimum of $150-180K/year ($173K/year according to the BLS: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm#earnings, especially in private practice. I'm not sure what effect, if any, the new CPT codes will have on neuropsychologists' professional income. Is Jerry working on the next survey? I heard it was in the pipeline.

 

[Anasazi23]

Hi Everyone,

I recently stumbled across this site while looking into general info for medical school and with good timing because I am having a bit of a dilemna. I hope ya'll don't mind as I've posted something similar elsewhere but havent gotten a response so I'd appreciate it if you guys had any feedback.

I will be starting a doctoral program in clinical psychology this fall. I was very happy to have made it into a fully funded research program right out of my undergraduate program. I've always wanted to be a researcher of mental health issues, so clinical psychology was the natural choice for me. And truthfully, I had never previously considered medical school as an avenue to meet my career goals. However (and I wont go into too much detail here), I have been wondering if a medical education might better suit my needs and research aims in the field of mental health.

I was in a similar boat that you were in...though I discovered that I wanted med school after one year of graduate school in psychology. I also was not interested in medical school while in undergrad. As far as what might better 'suit your needs and research aims;: it depends on what you want to do. It's that simple. If you want to be purely a lab rat, the truth is that you can go either route. Since you're in psychology grad school already, you might want to stick with that. You'll likely be paid a lot less, but you'll be doing what you want either way.

Has anyone else been in this position where they were in a doctoral program for psychology and decided to go med school/psychiatry instead? If so, how did you broach this with your mentor? Is a student of clinical psychology looked down on for med school admissions?

I honesly didn't give a damn what my mentor thought. Though I must say that they were reluctant to let me go - as they would likely be for you too. A student of psychology is not looked down up on med school. For me, it helped, since I was interested in psychiatry.

If I seriously want to pursue this, I have quite a lot of work to do over the next couple of years. I never took any hard science classes in college- so I'd need to take all 8 or so of the prereqs. Although I was strong in the sciences in high school, I realize that was years ago and college level science is a different ball game! Truthfully, I may not even be equipped for this. But I figure I'll never know if I don't try.

Yes, you do have a lot of work to do. And, the classes are hard. More than likely much much harder than undergrad psychology courses. You'll be competing with rabid pre-meds who demand A's, so you'll have to fight them for it. It is do-able.

So I plan on riding a year out in my graduate program and then, if I still feel strongly about it, meeting with the premed advisor at my graduate school and start taking the prereqs within the next year.

Sounds like a plan.

I am worried that I would be ostrasized in my graduate program- like they wasted an acceptance on me or something. If that is the case, that will be very hard for me to deal with. Is it better to be up front and tell them or to leave them in the dark?

They will proabably be very annoyed at best, and pissed at worst. They may even refuse to write you a good letter. You did waste a grad school spot, and depending on the nature of the directors there, they may not be happy about it. Too bad. It's your life.


I remember this story from when I was in grad school. For our outside rotations, we had to 'interview' at local places to see how we fit in with their sites. I went to the VA, where this notorious neuropsychologist was the director. He grilled me on the interview very hard, because he admittedly was very good at picking up people's motivations and interests. He wrote a bunch of words on the blackboard in his office...words like "lateralization," "executive functioning," "memory," "attention," and a few others.

He then asked me to pick out the word that most interested me. I wasn't quite sure what he meant, and I took a look, then chose "lateralization," mostly because I had done some reading on it recently. He became more hostile, telling me that he "knew" that I was more of a harder-science type person, and that perhaps psychology wasn't for me. He then began asking me whether or not I wanted to go to medical school, which I had been thinking strongly about at that point. I was honest with him, and told him I was. This made him more hostile still, and he told me that I'd hate it there (at his hospital), and that I should leave his office.

I received a phone call a week later from him, where he (*shockingly*) told me that he didn't want me in his VA rotation, and that I should go to med school if I think it's so wonderful. I told him what I thought of him at that point, and dropped the bomb on my grad school the next day. They were understandably upset, but ultimately understood my situation. I was the subject of a lot of rumors and talk for a while, but received support from unlikely sources, telling me that I'd be much happier as a physician rather than as a psychologist.

The point is that it can be done, has been done here a couple of times on SDN before, there are former psychologists, and those taking pre-meds like you intend to do. You wouldn't be the first, and certainly won't be the last.

Like I said, however, if you're primary interest is social science and psychological research, and have no interest in the medical model or full aspects of treatment, you might already be in the right place.

 

[Psyclops]

Right, but what about pay? Isn't it much more for psychiatrists in pharma? What does your PI make?

PhD + MD may be the way to go (albeit long way).

I'd say our PI here makes around 200k. I will have to qualify that by saying that they are a full professor (in thier mid 40's) and their salary is contigent upon them bringing in the grant money to support not only themsleves but our whole lab.

Who is Jerry?

 

[Anasazi23]

Good point. Forensic neuropsychology pays especially well. But do neuropsychologists fresh out of post-doc make $100K/year? No. Those average figures are for neuropsychologists who have been in practice for variable number of years. Median salary for neuropsychologists licensed for 1-5 years was $63.5K/year (Sweet et al., 2003). In contrast, a psychiatrist fresh out of residency will easily secure a job paying a minimum of $150-180K/year ($173K/year according to the BLS: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm#earnings, especially in private practice. I'm not sure what effect, if any, the new CPT codes will have on neuropsychologists' professional income. Is Jerry working on the next survey? I heard it was in the pipeline.

This is true. Virtually no psychologist makes 100k out of the box. Often, it takes years. The threat of having to move for whatever personal reason often sets them back again.

Psychiatrists make well over 100k, and as PH points out, 173k less than two years in practice. That salary is virutally guaranteed no matter where you move. Though it will likely be lower in saturated cities.

The vast majority of psychologists are not neuropsychologists.

 

[Anasazi23]

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

In the largest specialties, the middle half of psychologists earned between $41,850 and $71,880 in 2004. The lowest-paid 10 percent earned less than $32,280. The highest-paid 10 percent earned more than $92,250.
Earnings vary greatly. Earnings of successful, self-employed psychologists can be much higher.

More:

Median annual earnings of wage and salary clinical, counseling, and school psychologists in May 2004 were $54,950. The middle 50 percent earned between $41,850 and $71,880. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $32,280, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $92,250. Median annual earnings in the industries employing the largest numbers of clinical, counseling, and school psychologists in May 2004 were:

Offices of other health practitioners $64,460
Elementary and secondary schools 58,360
Outpatient care centers 46,850
Individual and family services 42,640

Median annual earnings of wage and salary industrial-organizational psychologists in May 2004 were $71,400. The middle 50 percent earned between $56,880 and $93,210. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $45,620, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $125,560.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos056.htm#earnings

 

[PublicHealth]

I'd say our PI here makes around 200k. I will have to qualify that by saying that they are a full professor (in thier mid 40's) and their salary is contigent upon them bringing in the grant money to support not only themsleves but our whole lab.

Who is Jerry?

Jerry Sweet, PhD. A neuropsychologist who conducts salary surveys. http://www.enh.org/healthandwellness/clinicalservices/mentalhealth/clinical/default.aspx?id=429

 

[PublicHealth]

I remember this story from when I was in grad school. For our outside rotations, we had to 'interview' at local places to see how we fit in with their sites. I went to the VA, where this notorious neuropsychologist was the director. He grilled me on the interview very hard, because he admittedly was very good at picking up people's motivations and interests. He wrote a bunch of words on the blackboard in his office...words like "lateralization," "executive functioning," "memory," "attention," and a few others.

He then asked me to pick out the word that most interested me. I wasn't quite sure what he meant, and I took a look, then chose "lateralization," mostly because I had done some reading on it recently. He became more hostile, telling me that he "knew" that I was more of a harder-science type person, and that perhaps psychology wasn't for me. He then began asking me whether or not I wanted to go to medical school, which I had been thinking strongly about at that point. I was honest with him, and told him I was. This made him more hostile still, and he told me that I'd hate it there (at his hospital), and that I should leave his office.

I received a phone call a week later from him, where he (*shockingly*) told me that he didn't want me in his VA rotation, and that I should go to med school if I think it's so wonderful. I told him what I thought of him at that point, and dropped the bomb on my grad school the next day. They were understandably upset, but ultimately understood my situation. I was the subject of a lot of rumors and talk for a while, but received support from unlikely sources, telling me that I'd be much happier as a physician rather than as a psychologist.

Who was this schmuck!?

 

[Psyclops]

A couple of things to note, those stats include school and counseling psychologists. They generally make less.

Second, the way you characterize psychologists as "the vast majority are not neuropsyhologists", makes it sound as if there is some sort of lottery to see who gets to be a neuropsychologist. Many don't ahve an interest in becoming one.

Although neuropsychologists do make much more than average.

Psychobabbler seems to be interested in research in which case those stats don't really apply, how much did the Psychiatry PDs make that Poety had looked up 140?

 

[Psyclops]

Who was this schmuck!?

Sounds like a gifted schmuck, he sniffed sazi out.

 

[psychobabbler]

thanks all. this has been very helpful.

Anasazi, did you decide to complete your masters before leaving the program or did you just leave once you were accepted into a medical school? Also, did you already take your prereqs in undergrad or did you do them while in graduate school?

 

[psychobabbler]

I for one, am not all that interested in neuropsych.

And its not really about the salary for me (though of course it plays a part)

But for me, its more about credibility in researching what I want to research. I am thinking psychiatry broadens the scope of what I can do.

 

[Psyclops]

It's also not a problem for MD psychiatrists.

Well, that's assuming we aren't talking about the drug company funded research. 🙄

 

[Anasazi23]

Who was this schmuck!?

I wish I could tell you his name.


I still remember it viscerally.

Overall though, he was right. I have to hand it to him.

 

[sdn1977]

If that truly is hte case, and you fell pretty sure, then I wouldn't worry about the MD. When it comes to research the MD isn't going to be a huge advantage, especially considering the debt. I work for a large behavioral genetics lab, that does large clinical trials for drugs, among other things. The PI was educated as a PhD in clinical psychology.

Naturaly alot of variables enter into these kinds of decisions, but I don't think you need to get the MD. Especially not to the exclusion of a research oriented degree.

You may PM me if you want more infor.

Actually...this depends on the phase of cinical trial the drug is in. Phase IV trials must have an MD as an investigator at all sites that are using the drug. The PI doesn't have to be an MD, but there must be an MD listed as investigator. Additionally, P&T committees require the study to have an MD listed, but that is only for studies which are conducted within the confines of a hospital.

 

[Anasazi23]

A couple of things to note, those stats include school and counseling psychologists. They generally make less.

Second, the way you characterize psychologists as "the vast majority are not neuropsyhologists", makes it sound as if there is some sort of lottery to see who gets to be a neuropsychologist. Many don't ahve an interest in becoming one.

Although neuropsychologists do make much more than average.

Psychobabbler seems to be interested in research in which case those stats don't really apply, how much did the Psychiatry PDs make that Poety had looked up 140?

Yes, you're right. The comment I made was simply that most PhD students are not ultimately going to become neuropsychologists. Then again, to take your analogy further, there is a sort of matching system for neuropsych internships/postdocs...so in some ways, it is sort of lottery based. But, as Jon Snow will point out (to his chagrin), any psychologist can perform neuropsych tests and bill for them.

 

[Anasazi23]

Sounds like a gifted schmuck, he sniffed sazi out.

Indeed he did.

Then again, I was pretty overt with my emotions back then....not having that completely developed frontal lobe & all. I had a tendency to wear my emotions on my sleeve, and had a bit of a temper. There are still remnants of that left, to my misfortune.

 

[Anasazi23]

thanks all. this has been very helpful.

Anasazi, did you decide to complete your masters before leaving the program or did you just leave once you were accepted into a medical school? Also, did you already take your prereqs in undergrad or did you do them while in graduate school?

Individual programs will and will not give you a Master's upon completion of your second year depending where you are. Some have a comp exam and will award an M.A. or M.S. Others won't. You'll have to check with your institution.

I left just after two years. I quit grad school and took a so-called post-bac pre-med route to med school. In other words, I had to take all my pre-reqs from scratch. Bio, physics, chemistry, organic, calc, etc.

 

[PublicHealth]

But for me, its more about credibility in researching what I want to research.

What do you want to research? I, for one, can tell you that there is VERY little time to do research, not to mention write papers, as a medical student. I was accepted to PhD programs in clinical psychology and opted for medical school. I can tell you that I miss doing research, writing papers, etc, but hope to resume it during residency and as an academic psychiatrist. Time will tell.

I recently met someone who was in my shoes a few years ago. She got into clinical PhD programs and medical school, and opted for clinical psychology because she was passionate about developing a research program in autism. Graduate school will give her more time to focus on developing her research interests, publishing some papers, establishing a reputation in the field, and ultimately securing an academic job. As Sazi stated, it really depends on what you want to do.

Also, I know of neuropsychologists who work in pharma and make a killing as consultants. Also know a neuropsychologist who does psychiatric epidemiology. If you're trained well in research methods, you can apply your skills to practically any research area in mental health. PhD will provide you with much better research training than medical school. No one will dispute that. The degrees are different by nature. PhD is the highest academic degree that you can get. Research carefully and decide.

 

[Psyclops]

Actually...this depends on the phase of cinical trial the drug is in. Phase IV trials must have an MD as an investigator at all sites that are using the drug. The PI doesn't have to be an MD, but there must be an MD listed as investigator. Additionally, P&T committees require the study to have an MD listed, but that is only for studies which are conducted within the confines of a hospital.

Yes, I was trying to point out that the only getting the PhD is really no limitation in terms of the type of research you can perform. There is quite a bit of colaboration that goes on at the RO-1 level. And, if you can think it up, you will have plenty of people willing to work on it with you, more than you would ideally want in fact. The only limiting factor is your imagination and drive.

Ahhh...so young and idealistic......

 

[Doc Samson]

Finances is not a simple answer between psychiatry and psychology. Take a clinical neuropsychology route vs psychiatry as an example.

Potentially a neuropsychologists trained in a good, well funded program may have no debt. The average income for neuropsychology is about ~$100,000 a year.

An MD may easily have $100,000 in debt. For psychiatry, the average income is about $150,000. Throw on high malpractice insurance costs and the debt load and that's not so appealing.

Malpractice insurance for psychiatrists is not at all expensive, in the region of 4K a year. If reimbursement is the deciding factor (though it sounds like it's not), MD offers more opportunity since you can build a practice of mid-level practitioners with yourself as the supervising medical director and really rake in the $$$.

 

[50960]

Hey sazi, yes that guy got it right with you, but under totally false pretenses. I read my horoscope today, and it said, " next week will be an important week for you...make the right decision". Next week is my big 2nd interview........science, NO; on the money, YES! 😀

 

[fiatslug]

Yes, you do have a lot of work to do. And, the classes are hard. More than likely much much harder than undergrad psychology courses. You'll be competing with rabid pre-meds who demand A's, so you'll have to fight them for it. It is do-able.

TRUE DAT.

I also went the pre-med route after graduate school (in Poetry, mind you--I was even further away from science!). It is a long, long freakin road: for financial reasons, I did all my pre-reqs at a community college (about $20-$50K cheaper than a formal post-bacc pre-med program, but I think the fact that it was a community college did leave a stigma... still, I got into a UC), while working 2 and sometimes 3 jobs (teaching, waiting tables). I couldn't go to school full time so it took a LONG time to get all the prereqs done, and then the MCAT, blah blah blah (I'm having flashbacks as I type--waiter nightmares, anyone?).

Be prepared for a lot of intellectual disillusionment: your life becomes about mastery of multiple choice tests, content (to a large extent, IMHO) be damned. I've often said medical school was the most anti-intellectual experience of my life. Life becomes tunneled: just get past Orgo, just get past physics, just get past the MCAT, just get past AMCAS, just get past biochem, just get past physio, just get past pharm, just get past 3rd year, just get past the sub-I...

I went in thinking I'd do ER; not sure how difficult it would be to pay attention to the afferent & efferent arterioles of the glomerulus if I'd known all along I wanted to do psych! Let's just say the process of getting from re-taking high school algebra to residency involved a lot of breath-holding, angst and dark nights of the soul: it's a long, long process of delayed gratification. And accruing interest. 😡

Still (and I've really only started to feel this way in the past year or so), I have to say I'm now glad I did it. Psych is a sweet gig, well-paid, and an exploding fountain of glorious humanity 😍 compared to virtually all the rest of medicine! Esp as a resident.

I'm always curious to know how many non-traditional premeds actually stick with it and get through all the doors--20%? more? less? It's grueling...

 

[Psyclops]

Hey sazi, yes that guy got it right with you, but under totally false pretenses. I read my horoscope today, and it said, " next week will be an important week for you...make the right decision". Next week is my big 2nd interview........science, NO; on the money, YES! 😀

Maybe science is NO, but sorcery.....YES!

 

[Psyclops]

Then again, to take your analogy further, there is a sort of matching system for neuropsych internships/postdocs...so in some ways, it is sort of lottery based.

And based on the ammount of available spots, getting into PhD schools certainly can feel like it is lottery based, is that the same for med school?

 

[PublicHealth]

And based on the ammount of available spots, getting into PhD schools certainly can feel like it is lottery based, is that the same for med school?

They're different animals. In my experience, I found clinical PhD programs to be more concerned with "fit" between applicant and advisor, research experience, and letters of recommendation than GPA and GRE scores. I imagine that EVERYONE having a 3.9 GPA and 1400+ GRE score is why.

Medical school admissions is more concerned with science GPA, MCAT scores, and clinical experience. Interviews also give you an opportunity to "sell yourself" and demonstrate how well you might "fit" with the program (diversity is a bestseller). Research helps, but is not a primary factor, though it was discussed at length in two of my interviews.

PhD admissions certainly felt more like a lottery to me.

 

[psychobabbler]

I would plan to take most of the prereqs at the university that I will be attending graduate school. I might plan to go home for a summer or two to do my externship. If I chose to take some prereqs at a community college near my house, would these still "count"? Would I still be competetive, assuming that I did well in the classes and on the MCAT?

 

[edieb]

They're different animals. In my experience, I found clinical PhD programs to be more concerned with "fit" between applicant and advisor, research experience, and letters of recommendation than GPA and GRE scores. I imagine that EVERYONE having a 3.9 GPA and 1400+ GRE score is why.

Medical school admissions is more concerned with science GPA, MCAT scores, and clinical experience. Interviews also give you an opportunity to "sell yourself" and demonstrate how well you might "fit" with the program (diversity is a bestseller). Research helps, but is not a primary factor, though it was discussed at length in two of my interviews.

PhD admissions certainly felt more like a lottery to me.

The admissions process for a PhD in clinical psychology is, to a limited extent, like a lottery because it depends on your "fit" with a particular professor. However, to make it through to this lottery phase, you have to make the first cut (i.e., you need to have high enough GRE scores) Obtaining these high scores is very hard --just look at GREs and GPAs from a Gaussian bell curve perspective (i.e., most people do not score that high). Be reminded that the majority of persons applying to PhD programs in clincial psych are rejected (< 90 percent) as they are very selective. It is harder to get into a PhD program in clinical psych than to get into an Ivy League school as an undergraduate student.

Also, the Bureau of Labor Statistics information on psychologist earnings is incorrect. They fail to exclude Master's level practitioners when computing the earnings.

 

[fiatslug]

I would plan to take most of the prereqs at the university that I will be attending graduate school. I might plan to go home for a summer or two to do my externship. If I chose to take some prereqs at a community college near my house, would these still "count"? Would I still be competetive, assuming that I did well in the classes and on the MCAT?

They'd definitely "count"--I did a year of g chem, orgo, physics, bio, and a semester of calculus & stats at a community college. Admissions committees are often snooty, however, and will be more impressed with the same courses from a 4 year college. Still it worked for me, and saved me big $$!

 

[Psyclops]

Be reminded that the majority of persons applying to PhD programs in clincial psych are rejected (< 90 percent) as they are very selective.

Ed means > 90% are not offered admission.

 

[whopper]

Forgive me if I address something already mentioned.

Medschool at least for me was hell. If you goto medschool you will spend several years doing stuff that has very little if anything to do with psychiatry or psychology.

About 10% of the medical curriculum is behaviorally based.

Another thing is psychiatry for better or worse is becoming so psychopharmacologically based that its forgetting the psycological component. This can be good or bad for you. If you have psychological training, that will aid you and you will have an edge over several other psychiatrists who do not have psychological academic training. It can be bad because several programs do not emphasize the psychological component and this may frustrate you in your training.

All in all, my advice is medschool should not be viewed as a temporary hardship. If you look at it like that it will hurt you. 4 years is too long a time to simply think of it as temporary as you go through a curriculum that ignores what your main interest is for a long time. I went through several failed relationships and lost touch with a lot of friends because of medschool.

Also, do not switch professions simply because of the money. Money is important but you also have to like your job. If you hate it, after a few months you wake up hating going to work and then you'll end up hating your life. Nothing is worth that if the alternative job still paid you enough to live a comfortable lifestyle.

 

[PublicHealth]

Forgive me if I address something already mentioned.

Medschool at least for me was hell. If you goto medschool you will spend several years doing stuff that has very little if anything to do with psychiatry or psychology.

About 10% of the medical curriculum is behaviorally based.

Another thing is psychiatry for better or worse is becoming so psychopharmacologically based that its forgetting the psycological component. This can be good or bad for you. If you have psychological training, that will aid you and you will have an edge over several other psychiatrists who do not have psychological academic training. It can be bad because several programs do not emphasize the psychological component and this may frustrate you in your training.

All in all, my advice is medschool should not be viewed as a temporary hardship. If you look at it like that it will hurt you. 4 years is too long a time to simply think of it as temporary as you go through a curriculum that ignores what your main interest is for a long time. I went through several failed relationships and lost touch with a lot of friends because of medschool.

Also, do not switch professions simply because of the money. Money is important but you also have to like your job. If you hate it, after a few months you wake up hating going to work and then you'll end up hating your life. Nothing is worth that if the alternative job still paid you enough to live a comfortable lifestyle.

You could also do a PhD in clinical psychology and an MS in clinical psychopharmacology, and then move to a state where psychologists prescribe (so far, it's only NM and LA). By the time you're done training, there will likely be many more states and a more streamlined reimbursement system. As whopper pointed out, you'll get a solid foundation in psychological assessment and treatment, and psychopharmacology will simply be another "tool" in your therapeutic toolbox. Prescribing will be done in consultation with your patients' primary care physician. If you go to a funded PhD program, you will likely not spend more than $10K completing an MS in psychopharmacology. And you'll spend 100% of your time studying/researching/teaching/treating psychology and psychological problems. You'll also pick up some solid research skills. Something to consider.

 

[edieb]

thanks

 

[psychobabbler]

You could also do a PhD in clinical psychology and an MS in clinical psychopharmacology, and then move to a state where psychologists prescribe (so far, it's only NM and LA). By the time you're done training, there will likely be many more states and a more streamlined reimbursement system. As whopper pointed out, you'll get a solid foundation in psychological assessment and treatment, and psychopharmacology will simply be another "tool" in your therapeutic toolbox. Prescribing will be done in consultation with your patients' primary care physician. If you go to a funded PhD program, you will likely not spend more than $10K completing an MS in psychopharmacology. And you'll spend 100% of your time studying/researching/teaching/treating psychology and psychological problems. You'll also pick up some solid research skills. Something to consider.

I'm already in a fully funded Phd program- and it is my plan to complete doctoral program because I want that calibre of research training. In the meantime, I plan to quiety take my prereqs and prepare for the MCAT. After internship- I would ideally want to enter an MD program.

And I have no interest in pursuing pure clinical work- rather clinical research- therefore, the prescription privledges that could potentially be obtained via and MS in psychopharm wouldn't really meet my needs. It's the medical model grounding in pharmacology that I want. Clearly, comparing the MS in psychopharm and the MD are like comparing apples and oranges. And I'm not saying one is better or worse, but just that (in my mind) the one meets the needs of the clinical researcher better. Just my thoughts.

 

[PublicHealth]

I'm already in a fully funded Phd program- and it is my plan to complete doctoral program because I want that calibre of research training. In the meantime, I plan to quiety take my prereqs and prepare for the MCAT. After internship- I would ideally want to enter an MD program.

And I have no interest in pursuing pure clinical work- rather clinical research- therefore, the prescription privledges that could potentially be obtained via and MS in psychopharm wouldn't really meet my needs. It's the medical model grounding in pharmacology that I want. Clearly, comparing the MS in psychopharm and the MD are like comparing apples and oranges. And I'm not saying one is better or worse, but just that (in my mind) the one meets the needs of the clinical researcher better. Just my thoughts.

What kind of research do you want to do?

Also, pharmacology is a small fraction of medical school, which is in and of itself a grueling experience. If you want pharmacology training for research purposes, why not get an MS in pharmacology or related discipline (not MS in clinical psychopharm)? Someone with "no interest in clinical work" will be doing a lot of clinical work in medical school -- 2 years of sometimes 80+ hour weeks, and 3-7 years postgraduate residency to be exact. The whole point of medical school is to train physicians, not researchers (MD/PhD notwithstanding).

 

[Psyclops]

I think the OP wanted to go into research, which, I would have to say I think the PhD would be better suited for that. Wouldn't a MD have to get additional research training afterwards?

 

[Anasazi23]

I think the OP wanted to go into research, which, I would have to say I think the PhD would be better suited for that. Wouldn't a MD have to get additional research training afterwards?

It's sort of an interesting question.

The majority of MD researchers I know did no additional training. For some reason, they're given a pass, and are allowed to begin research and are simply expected to know what they are doing. Most will do a large portion of their electives in research, conducting clinical trials, working in labs with subjects, etc. I think when it comes to the nitty-gritty of how to design the trial arms, and crunch the numbers, they have people called in to specifically do that portion. The MD researcher seems responsible for coming up with the clinical question, often based on their practice experience or already existing research findings, and manage the project.

 

[PublicHealth]

It's sort of an interesting question.

The majority of MD researchers I know did no additional training. For some reason, they're given a pass, and are allowed to begin research and are simply expected to know what they are doing. Most will do a large portion of their electives in research, conducting clinical trials, working in labs with subjects, etc. I think when it comes to the nitty-gritty of how to design the trial arms, and crunch the numbers, they have people called in to specifically do that portion. The MD researcher seems responsible for coming up with the clinical question, often based on their practice experience or already existing research findings, and manage the project.

This has been my experience as well. The "people called in" are usually PhD-level scientists, including clinical psychologists, epidemiologists, biostatisticians, etc. Still, academic psychiatrists tend to develop research questions, study design, and related efforts, often in collaboration with senior researchers. A friend of mine fresh out of residency is an assistant professor of psychiatry and this has been his experience (50% clinical, 50% research). He's currently writing a grant. It takes a while to establish somewhat of a reputation in a certain area, but many have done it.

 

[Psyclops]

The two previous posts are consistent with the research I have seen conducted at the departement of Psychiatry for which I work at an Ivy League med school. I will say our PI is a PHD in clinincal psychology, they are a professor of psychiatry here. In addition, there is usually an MD who is on the "team", naturally since we do many drug studies, although they are absent from almost all meetings and almost never get contacted. Usually for side effects etc. There are a couple of biostatisticians, who work full time on our projects. So here, even the PhD acts in much the same way you describe the MDs above.

 

[psychobabbler]

psyclops, I've seen it both ways- Many PIs in my area are MDs and psychologists work as part of the team and vice versa.

Public health- you might find this interesting: A colleague of mine going to medical school this fall told me that many programs are now requiring their MD students to do a thesis in the fourth year. So, while its not the focus, they are trying to pave the way for mds to take on a research career if they decide it suits them.

But, for the most part, I'm sure you are right- most people go clinical- however, that is true both in med school and in clinical psychology.

Since I envision myself primarily in a research career, I think it would be valuable for me to get the research training as a Phd and pursue the MD afterwards. While the masters in pharm is not a bad idea, its training in the model that comes along with the med school that I am seeking. I don't know that you can bottle that into a masters program?

 

[PublicHealth]

The two previous posts are consistent with the research I have seen conducted at the departement of Psychiatry for which I work at an Ivy League med school. I will say our PI is a PHD in clinincal psychology, they are a professor of psychiatry here. In addition, there is usually an MD who is on the "team", naturally since we do many drug studies, although they are absent from almost all meetings and almost never get contacted. Usually for side effects etc. There are a couple of biostatisticians, who work full time on our projects. So here, even the PhD acts in much the same way you describe the MDs above.

Stanford?

 

[psychobabbler]

i wish i had thought about MD/PhD earlier- the benefits of a med school education seriously never dawned on me until after i was already accepted to a doctoral program in psych...
Also, I'm not sure if there is an MD/PhD program in existance that combines clinical psychology with med school. Someone mentioned UChicago might? Not sure if thats true though.

 

[Psyclops]

Stanford?

Oposite coast, plus they aren't par of the IL. 🙂

 

[Psyclops]

While the masters in pharm is not a bad idea, its training in the model that comes along with the med school that I am seeking. I don't know that you can bottle that into a masters program?

Talk about an inadvertantly loaded question.

 

[PublicHealth]

Talk about an inadvertantly loaded question.

Good catch.

 

[PublicHealth]

Oposite coast, plus they aren't par of the IL. 🙂

Oh. OK.

 

[psychobabbler]

Talk about an inadvertantly loaded question.

is it that a loaded question?

 

[psychobabbler]

what about a combined program like at Stony Brook- I know it has a fantastic clinical psych program and a combined MD/PhD program. By default, are you "allowed" to combine the two?