Advising URM's

[sewcurious]

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I don't think most white people assume they know what it feels like to be a minority, or at least I don't. I think everyone should consider how their wording affects others, regardless of their ethnicity. The way you worded your statement makes it sound like white people should put more thought into their statements, while other races don't need to be as careful; which I don't agree with (but perhaps I am reading it wrong). If we want things to truly be equal we can't give a pass to some and not to others.

Your first statement is incorrect, they do, which is why throughout these threads people feel it is their place to comment on URM status having never experience or had intimiate contact with it. I admire that you are not a part of that group, but it is the exception not the rule.

Everyone should definitely be considerate of others (and I have had significant conversations about biases within minority communities as well), but in the case or issues of race I do feel that (however inappropriate) minorities have earned some indignation and responses to any racism (slight or great, if such distinctions even exist) should be considered in view of the history. In the same way I consider most white people's opinions in the context of the culture in which they are raised, and need to respond to a lifetime of conditioning to racial prejudice that in no way reflects on whether they are a "good" or "bad" person.

Additionally until other racial groups start sticking up for minorites in larger numbers (http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/07/racism.study/index.html), our responses to a dominant majority (that consistently views us as ignorant) need to be louder and more direct to be heard, as has been clearly shown through the many people I have seem URM-bashing in these threads despite evidence of their ignorance and bias.

 

[Morsetlis]

Hypersensitivity: When you use ad hominem attacks and name-call people in private whispers to defend your point of view.

 

[sewcurious]

Hypersensitivity: When you use ad hominem attacks and name-call people in private whispers to defend your point of view.

No need for private whispers. I have sent you PMs asking you to defend your prejudice in the face of facts I have provided, which you have refused and laughed at. If you would like to do so here in a public forum I'm up for it, but you have refused this before as well.

I do believe that presenting biased opinions and being unwilling to change (as you refused my open invitation to a friendly discussion of different opinions) in the face of evidence is is "pathetic" and "ignorant" and shows only your fear. That is the extent of the so-called name calling that you find offensive though you can't realize that the constant generalizations you make are offensive to URMs.

Did I leave anything out?

 

[chman]

Your first statement is incorrect, they do, which is why throughout these threads people feel it is their place to comment on URM status having never experience or had intimiate contact with it. I admire that you are not a part of that group, but it is the exception not the rule.

Everyone should definitely be considerate of others (and I have had significant conversations about biases within minority communities as well), but in the case or issues of race I do feel that (however inappropriate) minorities have earned some indignation and responses to any racism (slight or great, if such distinctions even exist) should be considered in view of the history. In the same way I consider most white people's opinions in the context of the culture in which they are raised, and need to respond to a lifetime of conditioning to racial prejudice that in no way reflects on whether they are a "good" or "bad" person.

Additionally until other racial groups start sticking up for minorites in larger numbers (http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/07/racism.study/index.html), our responses to a dominant majority (that consistently views us as ignorant) need to be louder and more direct to be heard, as has been clearly shown through the many people I have seem URM-bashing in these threads despite evidence of their ignorance and bias.

It seems to me that you do the very thing that you are preaching against. You lump white people into a category, assume you know their point of view, put a label on "them," and call it a day.

Anyways, I would love to have a face to face conversation with you about this, but until then I will just say that we most likely have the same goal but different ways of approaching it.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

No need for private whispers. I have sent you PMs asking you to defend your prejudice in the face of facts I have provided, which you have refused and laughed at. If you would like to do so here in a public forum I'm up for it, but you have refused this before as well.

I do believe that presenting biased opinions and being unwilling to change (as you refused my open invitation to a friendly discussion of different opinions) in the face of evidence is is "pathetic" and "ignorant" and shows only your fear. That is the extent of the so-called name calling that you find offensive though you can't realize that the constant generalizations you make are offensive to URMs.

Did I leave anything out?

I wouldn't lump all white people together so much. Keep in mind that people like arabs/persians/some asians are categorized as "white" and they've gone through some of the same crap as URMs have. The reason they don't get included in the URM category is because they aren't underrepresented. URM status has more to do with SES/representation than it does with "injustices done to them by whites."

 

[sewcurious]

I wouldn't lump all white people together so much. Keep in mind that people like arabs/persians/some asians are categorized as "white" and they've gone through some of the same crap as URMs have. The reason they don't get included in the URM category is because they aren't underrepresented. URM status has more to do with SES/representation than it does with "injustices done to them by whites."

You are absolutely right and I apologize, but my opinions are backed by what i have seen and experienced elsewhere in my life as well as social psychology, sociology, and history. I have been raised, gone to school with and been friends with mainly white people my entire life. I have watched television controlled by a white media, and lived in a country controlled by a white government, so yes I feel that makes me more able to comment on white America than the (majority) of white people on black America.

The prejudicial opinions of white people towards minorities are confirmed in many studies as well as by simply looking truthfully at the state of America today. Please look at my blogs.

I am by no means a radical that envisions an overthrow. I just want a realistic look at who we are and what we do to our own citizens.

Racial distinctions are arbitrary. They will be relevant until there is real equality amongst them.

 

[sewcurious]

I wouldn't lump all white people together so much. Keep in mind that people like arabs/persians/some asians are categorized as "white" and they've gone through some of the same crap as URMs have.

I am definitely aware of that, and I hope you know to which group my comments are directed.

[QUOTE/]The reason they don't get included in the URM category is because they aren't underrepresented. URM status has more to do with SES/representation than it does with "injustices done to them by whites."[/QUOTE]

I believe this is a common misconception. The under-represented part is a result of a history of injustices in this country, if not the designation would be unneccessary.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

You are absolutely right and I apologize, but my opinions are backed by what i have seen and experienced elsewhere in my life as well as social psychology, sociology, and history. I have been raised, gone to school with and been friends with mainly white people my entire life. I have watched television controlled by a white media, and lived in a country controlled by a white government, so yes I feel that makes me more able to comment on white America than the (majority) of white people on black America.

The prejudicial opinions of white people towards minorities are confirmed in many studies as well as by simply looking truthfully at the state of America today. Please look at my blogs.

I am by no means a radical that envisions an overthrow. I just want a realistic look at who we are and what we do to our own citizens.

Racial distinctions are arbitrary. They will be relevant until there is real equality amongst them.

The only reason I brought that up was because I think (maybe this is just in california) the problem of racism has expanded beyond just whites, to the point where even other minorities hate other minorities, and in a country where white people are gradually losing the majority that seems to be more of an issue. For example, I'm guessing you've heard about what happened in UCSD over the past several weeks? UCSD, like most UCs, has a very large asian population, and it seemed odd to me that the asian population there would take the side of the anti-minority people.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I believe this is a common misconception. The under-represented part is a result of a history of injustices in this country, if not the designation would be unneccessary.

I don't think it's as much of a history of injustices as it is to what effect does injustices had based on the backgrounds of those people. For example, like I said, the idea of racial inequality had the greater effect on Hispanics than Arabs because Arabs who came here often received support from back home (same goes for Persians). Hispanics on the other hand really didn't have anything back home in regards to support because the racial inequalities they suffered here followed them back home (imperialism left a much bigger mess of Latin american than it did the middle east). African Americans suffered the most because not only did they not have a support system (slavery made sure of that) they also suffered some of the worst of the colonialism/imperialism era, and did so well into the 1970s.

 

[sewcurious]

The only reason I brought that up was because I think (maybe this is just in california) the problem of racism has expanded beyond just whites, to the point where even other minorities hate other minorities and in a country where white people are gradually losing the majority that seems to be more of an issue. For example, I'm guessing you've heard about what happened in UCSD over the past several weeks? UCSD, like most UCs, has a very large asian population, and it seemed odd to me that the asian population there would take the side of the anti-minority people.

I am from CA as well, and I think you need to recognize that the issues are not disconnected. The histroy of the country is the newest minrity hating the next to newest, but this is always a result of the dominant society restricting the movement of both groups, who then have to fight with each other for the scraps (similar to how white slave owners created a wedge between black slaves and poor landless whites despite the fact that the two were being exploited by the same group).

The phenomenon you describe is not surprising. Asians are not a not a URM, though they are minorities that have distinctly different histories in this country that give them a different perspective.

 

[sewcurious]

I don't think it's as much of a history of injustices as it is to what effect does injustices had based on the backgrounds of those people. For example, like I said, the idea of racial inequality had the greater effect on Hispanics than Arabs because Arabs who came here often received support from back home (same goes for Persians). Hispanics on the other hand really didn't have anything back home in regards to support because the racial inequalities they suffered here followed them back home (imperialism left a much bigger mess of Latin american than it did the middle east). African Americans suffered the most because not only did they not have a support system (slavery made sure of that) they also suffered some of the worst of the colonialism/imperialism era, and did so well into the 1970s.

I agree, definitely both.

 

[mipp0]

You either totally misunderstood my post or are trying to construct one hell of a straw man. Either way, no good can come of this. Just note that I never said that all Americans are hypersensitive to every issue and that we're not talking about someone using racial slurs.

No, I assure you I didn't misunderstand and I hate straw men : )

My point was not the racial slurs but the context.

Anyway, I wasn't seeking to damn you. Just offering some food for thought 's all. The guy above me on the other hand...

 

[mipp0]

The only reason I brought that up was because I think (maybe this is just in california) the problem of racism has expanded beyond just whites, to the point where even other minorities hate other minorities, and in a country where white people are gradually losing the majority that seems to be more of an issue. For example, I'm guessing you've heard about what happened in UCSD over the past several weeks? UCSD, like most UCs, has a very large asian population, and it seemed odd to me that the asian population there would take the side of the anti-minority people.

RIDICULOUS. Man such foolishness.

How did the Asian American students at UCSD side with the "anti-minority"?

Your claims are grounded on nothing at all. The crimes at UCSD were perpetrated by a few rotten apples at UCSD, and you feel it's your self-righteous duty to damn everyone on campus? Talk about hypocrisy. You take the "moral high ground" to talk about racial inequalities and such, then make a sweeping generalization on another group of people.

Even more foolish, you brand all "white" students as anti-minority by virtue of what? Their being...not a minority?

Believe it or not, the compton cookout was started by a black person unaffiliated with the campus and *****s OFF CAMPUS.

The noose at UCSD...yeah, perpetrated by a minority student.

Please get informed before feeling all high and mighty. I generally wouldn't care (actually I would regardless), except many of my friends go to that school, and they don't deserve to be judged by you.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

RIDICULOUS. Man such foolishness.

How did the Asian American students at UCSD side with the "anti-minority"?

Your claims are grounded on nothing at all. The crimes at UCSD were perpetrated by a few rotten apples at UCSD, and you feel it's your self-righteous duty to damn everyone on campus? Talk about hypocrisy. You take the "moral high ground" to talk about racial inequalities and such, then make a sweeping generalization on another group of people.

Even more foolish, you brand all "white" students as anti-minority by virtue of what? Their being...not a minority?

Believe it or not, the compton cookout was started by a black person unaffiliated with the campus and *****s OFF CAMPUS.

The noose at UCSD...yeah, perpetrated by a minority student.

Please get informed before feeling all high and mighty. I generally wouldn't care (actually I would regardless), except many of my friends go to that school, and they don't deserve to be judged by you.

First of all, calm down.

1. The one thing I definitely didn't say was that all white people are racist, rather I said the exact opposite, that you should avoid making such a generalization because racism exists between other groups as well, including minorities, and that the term "white" encompasses a whole crap load of people.

2. I don't care who started it, rather it matters who took which side over the conversation of admitting more URMs to UCSD. Yes, I do know the noose was done by minority students who thought the situation was ridiculous, the noose wasn't the point.

3. I didn't say all Asians took the sides of the anti-minority students, but a lot did. I am surprised just by the fact that ANY of them would, seeing as how they were a minority. I brought this up not because I was even talking about Asians or saying anything about either Asians or UCSD, but rather that racism can exist between groups which both suffered from racism, and whether or not this kind of racism is the result of racism farther back in their own history. For example a lot of middle easterners/Asians don't get along well with African Americans or Hispanics simply because it became part of their culture when colonialism/imperialism brought those ideas to those regions during the 19th/early 20th century.

 

[Morsetlis]

I went to UCSD, which is why this is doubly hilarious.

 

[mipp0]

I agree, definitely both.

It's also important to realize that the oppressed can easily become the oppressors. Racism is multi-directional. I could give you my own personal anecdotes (being attacked by Hispanic and black students by virtue of being Asian American, being threatened with death at gunpoint by a Hispanic person), but I'll give you these links instead:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/h..._students_under_attack_at_S__Phila__High.html

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...dents-to-Meet-in-Private-Monday-79162377.html

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/Whitewash_in_South_Philly.html

Funny how this never hit CNN? Ask yourself, if these students were black, would it make the headlines? Absolutely.

Both the principal (who stepped down recently) and the superintendent (both black) refuse the acknowledge the gravity and racial dimension of the attack.

There is a clear double standard, don't you think?

URM are victims, but so are ORM and white students. The world is never as simple as we'd like to believe it is. I know you're very passionate about this sew, and you can get defensive and a bit condescending in your responses to others (I'm the same, I'm working on it), but it's always important to be balanced and fair in how you judge people (not to say you haven't been, but some things you have said shed light on your perspective don't you think?).

Anyway, guys, please give these articles a looksy.

 

[mipp0]

UCSD, like most UCs, has a very large asian population, and it seemed odd to me that the asian population there would take the side of the anti-minority people.

Lol, oh really? Then what did you mean by this? I'm very calm, I just think your hypocrisy is amusing and should be commented on. How are most Asians anti-minority? In what context? Just because they are against admitting more minority students for the SAKE of admitting more minority students? URM students segregate themselves from the student body as much as any other group.

Having grown up in LA, I have experienced the WORST RACISM of my life from my black neighbors. My friends were attacked for being Asians in a predominantly black and Hispanic neighborhood. My cousin nearly died from a bat to the face. Imperialism? Sure, people make and probably are affected by a history of racial stereotypes. Lived Experiences? Yes, our lived experiences influence our perspective as well.

This is NOT to say I think URM students are less qualified, more racist, etc. My point is that all ethnic groups (yes all) can be racist and victimize another group, minority or majority.

 

[Morsetlis]

The Man, of course.

And by the Man I mean Dr. Seuss, what with his KKK hood and all.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Lol, oh really? Then what did you mean by this? I'm very calm, I just think your hypocrisy is amusing and should be commented on.

The anti-minority? What are you talking about?

Maybe I forgot to include the word "some". But that doesn't really change my point (I'm assuming you read the entire thing I posted in reply). I go to a UC too so I know what I'm talking about, it did spread to other schools as well. It doesn't really take much effort to see what I meant by anti-minority. A lot of asians who talk about the topic say that URMs should not get an advantage in admission to UCSD because asians work harder. I think they're missing the point, that asians have not dealt with nearly as much crap as many other URMs have. I've also met many asians (especially elderly ones) who don't get along well with blacks/hispanics. Does this mean they're racist? No. Does this mean more asians hold this view than other races? No. It was just an example I used because it applies more to us as Californians. Rather I think this is kind of an interesting effect that racism toward asians had on asians. There's nothing hypocritical about my statement, I'm middle eastern and I also included them in my statement, so I am in no way making a generalization about any race, nor am I taking the higher ground based on my own race.

 

[Morsetlis]

I've also met many asians (especially elderly ones) who don't get along well with blacks/hispanics.

Lol so true. Actually, I think they're scared of Middle Easterners too, but for totally different reasons ;p

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Lol so true. Actually, I think they're scared of Middle Easterners too, but for totally different reasons ;p

I've always found that hilarious. That people like afghans hate Chinese people and Chinese people hate afghans when they're like basically from the same region. Maybe that's more of a religion thing though.

 

[sewcurious]

It's also important to realize that the oppressed can easily become the oppressors. Racism is multi-directional. I could give you my own personal anecdotes (being attacked by Hispanic and black students by virtue of being Asian American, being threatened with death at gunpoint by a Hispanic person), but I'll give you these links instead:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/h..._students_under_attack_at_S__Phila__High.html

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...dents-to-Meet-in-Private-Monday-79162377.html

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/Whitewash_in_South_Philly.html

Funny how this never hit CNN? Ask yourself, if these students were black, would it make the headlines? Absolutely.

Both the principal (who stepped down recently) and the superintendent (both black) refuse the acknowledge the gravity and racial dimension of the attack.

There is a clear double standard, don't you think?

URM are victims, but so are ORM and white students. The world is never as simple as we'd like to believe it is. I know you're very passionate about this sew, and you can get defensive and a bit condescending in your responses to others (I'm the same, I'm working on it), but it's always important to be balanced and fair in how you judge people (not to say you haven't been, but some things you have said shed light on your perspective don't you think?).

Anyway, guys, please give these articles a looksy.

I don't think I have ever said that it was uni-directional. Like I have said before minorities have their own prejudices. I do not think there is a double standard at all, tons of atrocities against people of all races get ignored because the media chooses to focus on one issue or another. I do agree that the plight of Asian-Americans, relative to other groups, is currently not focused on enough, but I don't think that makes all racial discrimination against the other groups irrelevant.

Those individual incidents are atrocious and undeserved, however, they don't change the fact that in general SES follows exactly the biases of whites against minorities (as I posted earlier), which are expressed throughout these threads and go uncontested. ANd that, as the beginning of this thread was about, that does not make minorities hypersensitive.

I have also said before that I have my own biases, however in this country they are assumed and the majority (Caucasian) view is generally presented as the "norm". My point is that it itself constitutes a bias as well.

I will continue to express my opinion, but like you I will work on the condescention as it is not productive. I would appreciate if people making comments on URMs would do the same.

 

[298609]

sewcurious, i think the reason it appears that many non-minorities appear to think they know what it is like to be a minority is because they claim to know what it is like to be discriminated against which is distinctively different from being a minority. they are not mutually inclusive, and thus confusion occurs when people believe that they are. the experience of a minority has more layers to it than simply being discriminated against, which is where this confusion originally arises.

 

[mipp0]

Maybe I forgot to include the word "some". But that doesn't really change my point (I'm assuming you read the entire thing I posted in reply). I go to a UC too so I know what I'm talking about, it did spread to other schools as well. It doesn't really take much effort to see what I meant by anti-minority. A lot of asians who talk about the topic say that URMs should not get an advantage in admission to UCSD because asians work harder. I think they're missing the point, that asians have not dealt with nearly as much crap as many other URMs have. I've also met many asians (especially elderly ones) who don't get along well with blacks/hispanics. Does this mean they're racist? No. Does this mean more asians hold this view than other races? No. It was just an example I used because it applies more to us as Californians. Rather I think this is kind of an interesting effect that racism toward asians had on asians. There's nothing hypocritical about my statement, I'm middle eastern and I also included them in my statement, so I am in no way making a generalization about any race, nor am I taking the higher ground based on my own race.

Your post shows the problem in your thinking.

You are generalizing people's lived experiences. My life is less "crap" by virtue of my being Asian American? How naive. I grew up in poverty and was attacked for being Asian in a predominantly black and Hispanic neighborhood. I've had guns pulled on me and my family threatened. My cousin's head was smashed open with a bat by another Hispanic student for no reason at all. BTW, I grew up without a dad.

One of my best friends is white and grew up in a single home in a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood. He was beaten up and picked on every day.

So who's the anti-minority? Oh that's right, you shouldn't generalize and should make some effort to understand the context and perspective...

I don't want your pity. But I want you to wise up and realize hard times and racism can affect all people, not just URM. Their lives aren't harder than ORM/"white" lives by default.

The admissions process should NOT be so race focused (or give preference to alumni or athletes). It should be based on a socioeconomic basis, among other criteria.

 

[sewcurious]

sewcurious, i think the reason it appears that many non-minorities appear to think they know what it is like to be a minority is because they claim to know what it is like to be discriminated against which is distinctively different from being a minority. they are not mutually inclusive, and thus confusion occurs when people believe that they are. the experience of a minority has more layers to it than simply being discriminated against, which is where this confusion originally arises.

Good point. And I think our govt, schools, and hstroy books do us a great disservice by not explaining that or how the porblems today are connected to issues of the past.

It's sad that I have to do this in every thread: I do not hate white people or any non-URMs, far from it. I think everyone has something unique to contribute but when people are marginalized (and it is a widely accepted condition) we all lose.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Your post shows the problem in your thinking.

You are generalizing people's lived experiences. My life is less "crap" by virtue of my being Asian American? How naive. I grew up in poverty and was attacked for being Asian in a predominantly black and Hispanic neighborhood. I've had guns pulled on me and my family threatened. My cousin's head was smashed open with a bat by another Hispanic student for no reason at all. BTW, I grew up without a dad.

One of my best friends is white and grew up in a single home in a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood. He was beaten up and picked on every day.

So who's the anti-minority? Oh that's right, you shouldn't generalize and should make some effort to understand the context and perspective...

I don't want your pity. But I want you to wise up and realize hard times and racism can affect all people, not just URM. Their lives aren't harder than ORM/"white" lives by default.

The admissions process should NOT be so race focused (or give preference to alumni or athletes). It should be based on a socioeconomic basis, among other criteria.

You still don't seem to understand by point. You're actually agreeing with it but for some reason you refuse to see that, maybe because you were offended by my original point (if you were, sorry). You prove what I was saying, that minorities are often prejudiced against other minorities and that is often a bigger problem than whites being prejudiced against minorities. The reason URM status at Med schools is race focused is because SES has a big correlation with race (are there exceptions? of course) but it's a lot easier for the schools than having to look up w-2 forms, etc like financial aid does. Also, keep in mind that the goal of medical schools isn't so much to provide equal opportunity to people of all races in their pursuit of becoming a doctor as it is to provide equal access to physicians for the population. This is why, unlike grad schools, they need to take into account race as well, not just income. They need to train a certain number of hispanic doctors simply because too many hispanics are going without medical care, etc.

P.S by crap I didn't mean individuals, but rather the race as a whole, since that is what contributes to the correlation between race and SES anyways.

 

[mipp0]

I don't think I have ever said that it was uni-directional. Like I have said before minorities have their own prejudices. I do not think there is a double standard at all, tons of atrocities against people of all races get ignored because the media chooses to focus on one issue or another. I do agree that the plight of Asian-Americans, relative to other groups, is currently not focused on enough, but I don't think that makes all racial discrimination against the other groups irrelevant.

Those individual incidents are atrocious and undeserved, however, they don't change the fact that in general SES follows exactly the biases of whites against minorities (as I posted earlier), which are expressed throughout these threads and go uncontested. ANd that, as the beginning of this thread was about, that does not make minorities hypersensitive.

I have also said before that I have my own biases, however in this country they are assumed and the majority (Caucasian) view is generally presented as the "norm". My point is that it itself constitutes a bias as well.

I will continue to express my opinion, but like you I will work on the condescention as it is not productive. I would appreciate if people making comments on URMs would do the same.

We can agree to disagree, but I do believe there is some double standard.
50 Asian students boycott after 30 Asian students are assaulted by predominantly black students (the violence encouraged to some degree by the staff) and no news?

Racial discrimination against any/all groups is relevant and should be treated equally, which is not happening. Regarding the hypersensitivity comment, we both agree (I was the first to comment on it).

Sigh*, race...such a contentious topic : )

 

[mipp0]

You still don't seem to understand by point. You're actually agreeing it but for some reason to refuse to see that, maybe because you were offended by my original point (if you were, sorry). You prove what I was saying, that minorities are often prejudiced against other minorities and that is often a bigger problem than whites being prejudiced against minorities. The reason URM status at Med schools is race focused is because SES has a big correlation with race (are there exceptions? of course) but it's a lot easier for the schools than having to look up w-2 forms, etc like financial aid does. Also, keep in mind that the goal of medical schools isn't so much to provide equal opportunity to people of all races in their pursuit of becoming a doctor as it is to provide equal access to physicians for the population. This is why, unlike grad schools, they need to take into account race as well, not just income. They need to train a certain number of hispanic doctors simply because too many hispanics are going without medical care, etc.

No I clearly understand your point...you stated it multiple times. No, I don't agree with you.

Less Hispanic doctors does not necessarily equate to less access to health care by Hispanics. That is fallacious logic.

What you said:
"Also, keep in mind that the goal of medical schools isn't so much to provide equal opportunity to people of all races in their pursuit of becoming a doctor as it is to provide equal access to physicians for the population."

A very telling comment indeed...

 

[sewcurious]

You prove what I was saying, that minorities are often prejudiced against other minorities and that is often a bigger problem than whites being prejudiced against minorities.

I'm not sure how you can make that assumption? How exactly do you decide on the worse prejudice?

THe prejudice of whites, being the groups with the most SES power in the country has the potential to have larger effects of entire groups of people; their social mobility, health, housing, education etc. All racism is awful but to assume minority on minority crime is somehow a separate phenomenon (as I addressed earlier) is to continue with the segregation of the socila issues in this country that are all very interconnected.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

No I clearly understand your point...you stated it multiple times. No, I don't agree with you.

Less Hispanic doctors does not necessarily equate to less access to health care by Hispanics. That is fallacious logic.

What you said:
"Also, keep in mind that the goal of medical schools isn't so much to provide equal opportunity to people of all races in their pursuit of becoming a doctor as it is to provide equal access to physicians for the population."

A very telling comment indeed...

My point is that racism between minorities exists, is a problem, and is in some ways the byproduct of previous racism suffered by those respective minorities. You don't agree with that?

No, it's not. Believe it or not med schools are not out to discriminate against Asians and whites, rather they need to fulfill the requirements that the state/federal government set for them. This isn't like engineering school where as long as the product is produced everyone is happy. Why do you think so many california schools cite knowing "spanish" as something that's really important. In communities where many people don't speak English having a hispanic doctor is of great help to the community.

And yes, it is a telling comment, but it's TRUE. Why do you think they call it UNDERREPRESENTED instead of DISADVANTAGED.

 

[sewcurious]

No I clearly understand your point...you stated it multiple times. No, I don't agree with you.

Less Hispanic doctors does not necessarily equate to less access to health care by Hispanics. That is fallacious logic.

What you said:
"Also, keep in mind that the goal of medical schools isn't so much to provide equal opportunity to people of all races in their pursuit of becoming a doctor as it is to provide equal access to physicians for the population."

A very telling comment indeed...

Actually that is exactly correct. LizzyM has comment on this multiple times, it is the reason given for needing to increase URM #s in med school. That is the exact reasoning that they give.

http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/statusofnewdefinition.pdf
"URM" has been a key concept in AAMC goal-setting and tracking and also has played a role in establishing eligibility for certain AAMC programs and those of some member institutions and affiliated organizations. Since 1969, the AAMC had articulated a goal of "population parity" for including various racial and ethnic groups in the profession of medicine. Efforts to achieve that goal include the decade-long campaign "Project 3000 by 2000," which sought to reach a level of 3,000 URM students entering medical school by the year 2000...the AAMC views the educational benefits of diversity as including its contributions to improving both the cultural competence of the physicians our schools educate and improving access to care for underserved populations."

 

[chman]

OK guys. Lets just calm down. Look to the cookie. The best contemporary view of race relations that I have seen.

[YOUTUBE]IlLPAIrmqvE[/YOUTUBE]

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I'm not sure how you can make that assumption? How exactly do you decide on the worse prejudice?

THe prejudice of whites, being the groups with the most SES power in the country has the potential to have larger effects of entire groups of people; their social mobility, health, housing, education etc. All racism is awful but to assume minority on minority crime is somehow a separate phenomenon (as I addressed earlier) is to continue with the segregation of the socila issues in this country that are all very interconnected.

It's a bigger problem in California and campuses mainly because minorities outnumber whites in those regions. It's also a bigger problem because if blacks hate hispanics, hispanics hate blacks, and asians hate hispanics who hate them in return it reduces the chance of social mobility far more than if it was just simply whites who hated minorities and all minorities got along. Not only that, but like you said earlier, it promotes the idea that, especially in the youth, there is something fundamentally wrong with being a minority, after all if white people start seeing that even minorities hate each other, why shouldn't they? For example, when African Americans exhibit racism towards Hispanics, it weakens their point for racial equality because it makes it seem as if they themselves don't believe in it.

But as for the interconnectedness? Of course I agree with you there. I guess the better way of stating it instead of using the word "bigger" would have been that the first priority for minorities is to make sure that this minority on minority racism begins to disappear.

 

[mipp0]

I'm not sure how you can make that assumption? How exactly do you decide on the worse prejudice?

THe prejudice of whites, being the groups with the most SES power in the country has the potential to have larger effects of entire groups of people; their social mobility, health, housing, education etc. All racism is awful but to assume minority on minority crime is somehow a separate phenomenon (as I addressed earlier) is to continue with the segregation of the socila issues in this country that are all very interconnected.

It's also very important to acknowledge choice. Despite a person's circumstance, no one forces them to do something. Their circumstances may compel them to do desperate things, but the approach, the direction, the volition, all in the control of the actor.

So if Asian Americans come to black neighborhoods, for example, how they (black community) respond is up to them. Their response can be empowering (banding together, tearing down stereotypes, community involvement) or counter-productive (violence, etc.). You can't attribute all social problems to purely history. Our circumstances are heavily influenced by the past, but we still have power over the present (or at least power to shape/change it--as seen with Obama's election).

 

[sewcurious]

It's a bigger problem in California and campuses mainly because minorities outnumber whites in those regions. It's also a bigger problem because if blacks hate hispanics, hispanics hate blacks, and asians hate hispanics who hate them in return it reduces the chance of social mobility far more than if it was just simply whites who hated minorities and all minorities got along. Not only that, but like you said earlier, it promotes the idea that, especially in the youth, that there is something fundamentally wrong with being a minority, after all if white people start seeing that even minorities hate each other, why shouldn't they? For example, when African Americans exhibit racism towards Hispanics, it weakens their point for racial equality because it makes it seem as if they themselves don't believe in it.

I'm confused as to why you think minorities somehow need to prove the deserve equality to whites. It is an incredibly insulting idea and shows the depth of the issues of racial bias. We deserve equality because we are humans just like you do, nothing else. Embarassing that I need to state that but how can you not see how prejudicial that is; as if equality is something for whites to hand out to minirites when they act correctly.

I am trying no to be condescending here but that is just soooooo upsetting and hurtful and indicative of the whole problem in this country.

And, once again, they are not separate issues. Minorities internalize prejudice of other groups as well as their own, a prejudice propagated by the dominant majority in this country.

 

[mipp0]

Actually that is exactly correct. LizzyM has comment on this multiple times, it is the reason given for needing to increase URM #s in med school. That is the exact reasoning that they give.

http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/statusofnewdefinition.pdf
"URM" has been a key concept in AAMC goal-setting and tracking and also has played a role in establishing eligibility for certain AAMC programs and those of some member institutions and affiliated organizations. Since 1969, the AAMC had articulated a goal of "population parity" for including various racial and ethnic groups in the profession of medicine. Efforts to achieve that goal include the decade-long campaign "Project 3000 by 2000," which sought to reach a level of 3,000 URM students entering medical school by the year 2000...the AAMC views the educational benefits of diversity as including its contributions to improving both the cultural competence of the physicians our schools educate and improving access to care for underserved populations."

Perhaps you aren't aware of the segregation on your campus? Just increasing diversity isn't enough. Common sense and your own experiences should make that obvious.

If you accept someone purely to increase diversity, it will create animosity with the other students who didn't have such an advantage. And what you wrote and what you bolded don't necessarily mean the same thing...I hope you can see that.....I SERIOUSLY HOPE YOU DO.

 

[Morsetlis]

None of these racial campaigners even know what their real point is. They think that tipping the scale makes it balanced. Well, no, it makes it an unbalanced scale, just on the other side.

This reminds me of the class forums in WoW. But deathknights are overpowered! Nerf rocks, buff scissors, paper is fine 🙂

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I'm confused as to why you think minorities somehow need to prove the deserve equality to whites. It is an incredibly insulting idea and shows the depth of the issues of racial bias. We deserve equality because we are humans just like you do, nothing else. Embarassing that I need to state that but how can you not see how prejudicial that is; as if equality is something for whites to hand out to minirites when they act correctly.

I am trying no to be condescending here but that is just soooooo upsetting and hurtful and indicative of the whole problem in this country.

And, once again, they are not separate issues. Minorities internalize prejudice of other groups as well as their own, a prejudice propagated by the dominant majority in this country.

I don't think that they do? I'm sorry if it came off that way (but I'm curious what made you think that). Do you not agree that it would seriously help increase social mobility for minorities if their interests weren't as separated as they are now? In a country where the minority is slowly becoming the majority, this is something that really needs to be addressed.

 

[mipp0]

None of these racial campaigners even know what their real point is. They think that tipping the scale makes it balanced. Well, no, it makes it an unbalanced scale, just on the other side.

This reminds me of the class forums in WoW. But deathknights are overpowered! Nerf rocks, buff scissors, paper is fine 🙂

Congratulations, you contributed nothing at all. Sorry, my one condescending post...

We actually do know what we're talking about, so please, take the time to read and use your reasoning abilities.

 

[sewcurious]

It's also very important to acknowledge choice. Despite a person's circumstance, no one forces them to do something. Their circumstances may compel them to do desperate things, but the approach, the direction, the volition, all in the control of the actor.

So if Asian Americans come to black neighborhoods, for example, how they (black community) respond is up to them. Their response can be empowering (banding together, tearing down stereotypes, community involvement) or counter-productive (violence, etc.). You can't attribute all social problems to purely history. Our circumstances are heavily influenced by the past, but we still have power over the present (or at least power to shape/change it--as seen with Obama's election).

That is where our opinions differ. And I believe that we can leave it at that. I believe that those people were just as scared as you, and while their response was not correct I think that 200 years of discrimination can affect the reaction of an entire culture to other races so that they protect what they (incorrectly) feel is a threat to their livelihood in an inappropriate way.

I also think that Obama is a good example of what you are Talking about. He is son of an African immigrant (without a family history tied up in slavery) who was raised by a white family (a fact that was emphasized throughout his campaign to assure people he was not going to only be pro-black)

 

[Morsetlis]

Congratulations, you contributed nothing at all. Sorry, my one condescending post...

We actually do know what we're talking about, so please, take the time to read and use your reasoning abilities.

Oh dear god no. That would be a waste of time, trying to reason on a message board. Poking at people is a lot more fun.

Besides, if you were at a dog fight, would you try to "contribute" or would you egg them on?

 

[sewcurious]

I don't think that they do? I'm sorry if it came off that way (but I'm curious what made you think that).

"For example, when African Americans exhibit racism towards Hispanics, it weakens their point for racial equality because it makes it seem as if they themselves don't believe in it."

This is what made me think that. The group we are "making our point" to is white America, and there should be no need to argue for it, it is deserved as a human right. Whites have never had to prove they believe in racial equality to gain their status.

Do you not agree that it would seriously help increase social mobility for minorities if their interests weren't as separated as they are now?

Minorities are not one group. And yes I disagree in that, once again, this is not separate from the issues of racial prejudice of the dominant white powers.

In a country where the minority is slowly becoming the majority, this is something that really needs to be addressed.

They ARE NOT separate issues. And the SES power of this country will remain in the hands of whites no matter who tips the scales. They don't have it because they are the majority, they have it because of a istroy of institutionalized inequalities against other groups, which will remain no matter what the census percentages are.

 

[298609]

OK guys. Lets just calm down. Look to the cookie. The best contemporary view of race relations that I have seen.

[YOUTUBE]IlLPAIrmqvE[/YOUTUBE]

AGREEEDDDDDD and might i just say, i have seen every seinfeld (probably about 10 times each episode) and i never noticed the part where he air-toasts his cookie with the black guy across the bakery.


look to the cookie, wise words to live by.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

"For example, when African Americans exhibit racism towards Hispanics, it weakens their point for racial equality because it makes it seem as if they themselves don't believe in it."

This is what made me think that. The group we are "making our point" to is white America, and there should be no need to argue for it, it is deserved as a human right. Whites have never had to prove they believe in racial equality to gain their status.


Minorities are not one group. And yes I disagree in that, once again, this is not separate from the issues of racial prejudice of the dominant white powers.


They ARE NOT separate issues. And the SES power of this country will remain in the hands of whites no matter who tips the scales. They don't have it because they are the majority, they have it because of a istroy of institutionalized inequalities against other groups, which will remain no matter what the census percentages are.

In a perfect world there would be no reason to argue for it, it would just happen, but this is far from a perfect world.

I never said it was a separate issue, I think it's a part of the issue that doesn't receive enough attention.

 

[sewcurious]

Perhaps you aren't aware of the segregation on your campus? Just increasing diversity isn't enough. Common sense and your own experiences should make that obvious.

If you accept someone purely to increase diversity, it will create animosity with the other students who didn't have such an advantage. And what you wrote and what you bolded don't necessarily mean the same thing...I hope you can see that.....I SERIOUSLY HOPE YOU DO.

Just so you know I consider this statement incredibly condescending. I made a mistake and bolded the entire sentence because it was relevant the second half of which supported my statement (the correctly bolded version below)

the AAMC views the educational benefits of diversity as including its contributions to improving both the cultural competence of the physicians our schools educate and improving access to care for underserved populations."

, and showed yours to be inccorrect:

Less Hispanic doctors does not necessarily equate to less access to health care by Hispanics. That is fallacious logic.

The AAMC has compiled research and decided that it is true.

 

[sewcurious]

In a perfect world there would be no reason to argue for it, it would just happen, but this is far from a perfect world.

I never said it was a separate issue, I think it's a part of the issue that doesn't receive enough attention.

And I said the racism of the dominant culture is internalized by the other groups. So getting rid of it amongst minorities (while def. necessary) would not do anything to improve their social mobility and would not be possible without the other first. They are not impeding each other overall as much as the those who have SES power.

 

[sewcurious]

Perhaps you aren't aware of the segregation on your campus? Just increasing diversity isn't enough. Common sense and your own experiences should make that obvious.

If you accept someone purely to increase diversity, it will create animosity with the other students who didn't have such an advantage. And what you wrote and what you bolded don't necessarily mean the same thing...I hope you can see that.....I SERIOUSLY HOPE YOU DO.

And about you assertion about segregation. I do recognize it and do not see it as "natural" but imposed by the racial inequality maintained in this country and the illusion of a non-arbitrary definition of race.

AS you said earlier: "It's also very important to acknowledge choice. Despite a person's circumstance, no one forces them to do something. Their circumstances may compel them to do desperate things, but the approach, the direction, the volition, all in the control of the actor."

So poeple who are in school with URMs can choose to assume they go in based on purely URM status and then choose to have animosity. They can just as easily choose to not assume that their stats makes them a better medical school applicant (or even that their stats are better than whatever URM they are deciding doesn't deserve to be there) and get to know the person.

 

[mipp0]

That is where our opinions differ. And I believe that we can leave it at that. I believe that those people were just as scared as you, and while their response was not correct I think that 200 years of discrimination can affect the reaction of an entire culture to other races so that they protect what they (incorrectly) feel is a threat to their livelihood in an inappropriate way.

I also think that Obama is a good example of what you are Talking about. He is son of an African immigrant (without a family history tied up in slavery) who was raised by a white family (a fact that was emphasized throughout his campaign to assure people he was not going to only be pro-black)

Culture is dynamic Sew, and we are not slaves to it. Our actions are our own, and we need to take responsibility for them; otherwise, we are always the victims, and we never take responsibility for our actions. Even president Obama made this clear in his speeches directed to blacks.

But I'm glad we were civil with each other.

 

[mipp0]

Just so you know I consider this statement incredibly condescending. I made a mistake and bolded the entire sentence because it was relevant the second half of which supported my statement (the correctly bolded version below)



, and showed yours to be inccorrect:



The AAMC has compiled research and decided that it is true.

I think you've misunderstood my point. I meant that the AAMC's goal does not automatically equate to unequal opportunity, because that would stigmatize all minority matriculants based on AAMC data.

AAMC data does not show me to be incorrect. Again, we have to look at choice. And compounding factors. For example, class and race. There was a very lengthy thread rationalizing this, so if you are interested, I would encourage you to find it.

 

[sewcurious]

Culture is dynamic Sew, and we are not slaves to it. Our actions are our own, and we need to take responsibility for them; otherwise, we are always the victims, and we never take responsibility for our actions. Even president Obama made this clear in his speeches directed to blacks.

But I'm glad we were civil with each other.

As I said before, agree to disagree.