Affermative action regarding residency

[gobigorgohome22]

Out of curiosity, is affirmative action taken into account by PD's when they are determining how to rank students?

So for example: do Asian students, on average, need higher step scores to match to similar places like with MCAT? Is there a URM bias similar to med school admission?

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[Anicetus]

Would you hire a URM with a 210 step 1 and no honors over an Asian student with a 255 step 1 and AOA because of background/ethnicity when you entrust the lives of others into their own hands?

 

[Doctor Bob]

Out of curiosity, is affirmative action taken into account by PD's when they are determining how to rank students?

No

So for example: do...

No

 

[AlmostAnMD]

They use it for medical school admissions, I'd be surprised if it doesn't find its way into residency, too....

 

[CR7MedStudent]

I think one has to take into account the patient population being served. For example if the hospital/program is located in an area with a high amount of linguistically isolated patients doesn't the program have a responsibility to have at least some physicians that look like the patients served, speak the language of the patients being served, and understand cultural nuances that cannot be taught in brief medical school cultural competency lectures? Also when it comes to language, even though there is technology and interpreter phones, anyone can admit that a patient would be more comfortable speaking to a physician that spoke the same language as them. I'm against affirmative action but if one student has a step 1 score of a 255 and another student has a 240 but also speaks the same language and is of the same culture of the patients served by that program, I wouldn't be surprised if the student with a 240 got in over the student with a 255. It makes sense to me but I'm only a student.

 

[Mad Jack]

Sometimes individuals of certain communities will be given a pass because they fit the mission of a given residency program, such as one prestigious program I know of that has taken zero DOs ever, aside from a single African American DO. The program was an inner city one, so it is likely that she fit their mission and had cultural ties that would aid in her fulfilling it care of her background.

 

[kappamollie1993]

Well as a patient affirmative action disgusts me and once I learned about it I vowed to never go to a physician that was a URM. Why would I place my care in the hands of someone unqualified to wear the white coat. Good white students get shoved into DO schools and have to deal with DO discrimination and less opportunities to specialize so an afro american can sweat up a spot in MD school. Disgusting. I am glad my fiance did not lose his spot in MD school to a URM.

 

[MedWonk]

Well as a patient affirmative action disgusts me and once I learned about it I vowed to never go to a physician that was a URM. Why would I place my care in the hands of someone unqualified to wear the white coat. Good white students get shoved into DO schools and have to deal with DO discrimination and less opportunities to specialize so an afro american can sweat up a spot in MD school. Disgusting. I am glad my fiance did not lose his spot in MD school to a URM.

Y'know, you were doing pretty well in the other thread, but now you just decided to lay a huge turd with your trolling. I mean, this just smacks of poor effort.

 

[drjay16]

..

 

[CR7MedStudent]

Well as a patient affirmative action disgusts me and once I learned about it I vowed to never go to a physician that was a URM. Why would I place my care in the hands of someone unqualified to wear the white coat. Good white students get shoved into DO schools and have to deal with DO discrimination and less opportunities to specialize so an afro american can sweat up a spot in MD school. Disgusting. I am glad my fiance did not lose his spot in MD school to a URM.

This should win an award for troll of the week.

 

[DokterMom]

There was a study published fairly recently that showed graduating seniors who were URM ranked a larger number of residencies than their ORM colleagues. I interpreted that to mean that they felt less confident in their ability to match, all other things being equal (which they never are).

So I'd take that to meant that there probably isn't - or certainly not much of - a basis in favor of selecting URM residency candidates. The exception would be, of course, for hospitals that served a significant proportion of members of a particular URM community.

 

[witzelsucht]

...The exception would be, of course, for hospitals that served a significant proportion of members of a particular URM community.

Its interesting how if a white dude says 'i'd feel more comfortable with a white man as my doctor' that's like, the worst thing on earth, but if a black woman wants a black woman doctor, that's cool because she needs to understand her diverse life experiences. even if the black lady doctor went to freakin Villanova

 

[Hyde]

I'm against affirmative action but if one student has a step 1 score of a 255 and another student has a 240 but also speaks the same language and is of the same culture of the patients served by that program, I wouldn't be surprised if the student with a 240 got in over the student with a 255. It makes sense to me but I'm only a student.

I don't think AA would be a factor in the scenario you describe - i.e. deciding between 2 students with Step 1 scores of 255 and 240.

 

[CR7MedStudent]

I don't think AA would be a factor in the scenario you describe - i.e. deciding between 2 students with Step 1 scores of 255 and 240.

Yeah I agree, thats the point I was trying to make. Some may see that scenario as AA but it is simply a PD trying to diversify his or her program. In that scenario I was assuming that the scores and the cultural background were the only significant differences. Just because more women are entering certain residencies like urology and orthopaedics and more URMs are entering top residencies does not mean AA is taking place and to say so without having all the data, imo is a disservice to many of these residents.

 

[W19]

Am I in the pre allo forum?

 

[W19]

Well as a patient affirmative action disgusts me and once I learned about it I vowed to never go to a physician that was a URM. Why would I place my care in the hands of someone unqualified to wear the white coat. Good white students get shoved into DO schools and have to deal with DO discrimination and less opportunities to specialize so an afro american can sweat up a spot in MD school. Disgusting. I am glad my fiance did not lose his spot in MD school to a URM.

Lol...

 

[drjay16]

Am I in the pre allo forum?

Feels like it.


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[Hyde]

Just because more women are entering certain residencies like urology and orthopaedics and more URMs are entering top residencies ...

Speaking of data, what's your source of information in that regard?

 

[username456789]

There was a study published fairly recently that showed graduating seniors who were URM ranked a larger number of residencies than their ORM colleagues. I interpreted that to mean that they felt less confident in their ability to match, all other things being equal (which they never are).

So I'd take that to meant that there probably isn't - or certainly not much of - a basis in favor of selecting URM residency candidates. The exception would be, of course, for hospitals that served a significant proportion of members of a particular URM community.

An alternative interpretation is that they may perform more poor in medical school, and thus require such an application strategy to ensure a successful match.

I know you qualified your statement with "all things being equal", but that's a pretty big "if."

/devil's advocate

 

[genelia]

Unqualified? URMs have to take the same boards as everyone else. If your doctor is board certified, how can they be unqualified? Maybe you can define unqualified for everyone.


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Boards are just a minimum competency test. You can still be a pretty lousy doctor and have passed the boards.

 

[drjay16]

Boards are just a minimum competency test. You can still be a pretty lousy doctor and have passed the boards.

You can also have a ****ty doctor that did well on the boards. How does one assess how good a physician is?


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[genelia]

You can also have a ****ty doctor that did well on the boards. How does one assess how good a physician is?


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I'm just saying boards aren't a great way to assess a doctor's capabilities, because you were doing that.

 

[drjay16]

...

 

[CR7MedStudent]

Speaking of data, what's your source of information in that regard?

http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/feb08/cover2.asp
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/09/health/09urol.html?_r=0
https://www.auanet.org/university/abstract_detail.cfm?id=MP15-04&meetingID=14ORL
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ogist-is-usually-a-man-but-maybe-not-for-long
http://www.gastrojournal.org/articl...en&as_sdt=0%2C33&as_vis=1&as_ylo=2005&as_yhi=
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951774/
I really don't get why people get defensive when talking about diversity in medicine. The literature has so much evidence of how it can benefit patients.

 

[pd1112]

There was a study published fairly recently that showed graduating seniors who were URM ranked a larger number of residencies than their ORM colleagues. I interpreted that to mean that they felt less confident in their ability to match, all other things being equal (which they never are).

So I'd take that to meant that there probably isn't - or certainly not much of - a basis in favor of selecting URM residency candidates. The exception would be, of course, for hospitals that served a significant proportion of members of a particular URM community.

My first thought was to interpret this as URM seniors ranked a larger number because they received more interviews.

 

[DokterMom]

An alternative interpretation is that they may perform more poor in medical school, and thus require such an application strategy to ensure a successful match.

I know you qualified your statement with "all things being equal", but that's a pretty big "if."

/devil's advocate

Possible certainly -- And having done some test-prep assistance with a friend who was first generation American and the daughter of non-native speakers, I'd also suggest that standardized tests still discriminate against people who were not raised in well-educated native-English-speaking households. (There's considerable research to back this up.) Meaning that a disproportionate number of URM candidates may well have lower pre-clinical or board scores even though they're equally intelligent and capable.

Not to mention the very valid point that what makes someone a great physician isn't board scores or even intelligence (beyond a certain point) anyway --

 

[DokterMom]

My first thought was to interpret this as URM seniors ranked a larger number because they received more interviews.

Also possible.
Or sent out more applications.

 

[pd1112]

Would you hire a URM with a 210 step 1 and no honors over an Asian student with a 255 step 1 and AOA because of background/ethnicity when you entrust the lives of others into their own hands?

Lolz if patients' lives depended solely on boards and grades, there'd be no applications or interviews, just names and numbers.

 

[Anicetus]

Lolz if patients' lives depended solely on boards and grades, there'd be no applications or interviews, just names and numbers.

Lolz boards and grades are how you GET interviews at more competitive places.

 

[BobbyB]

http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/feb08/cover2.asp
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/09/health/09urol.html?_r=0
https://www.auanet.org/university/abstract_detail.cfm?id=MP15-04&meetingID=14ORL
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ogist-is-usually-a-man-but-maybe-not-for-long
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(09)02034-4/abstract?cc=y=&referrer=https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=minorities+in+medicine&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&as_vis=1&as_ylo=2005&as_yhi=
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951774/
I really don't get why people get defensive when talking about diversity in medicine. The literature has so much evidence of how it can benefit patients.

would it be okay for programs with a white patient population to take white applicants over other races?

 

[pd1112]

Lolz boards and grades are how you GET interviews at more competitive places.

Partially true but if that's your point, say it. Don't try to dramatize it with "entrusting the lives..." blah blah blah.

 

[Wordead]

http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/feb08/cover2.asp
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/09/health/09urol.html?_r=0
https://www.auanet.org/university/abstract_detail.cfm?id=MP15-04&meetingID=14ORL
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ogist-is-usually-a-man-but-maybe-not-for-long
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(09)02034-4/abstract?cc=y=&referrer=https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=minorities+in+medicine&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&as_vis=1&as_ylo=2005&as_yhi=
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2951774/
I really don't get why people get defensive when talking about diversity in medicine. The literature has so much evidence of how it can benefit patients.

You realize most of those examples you listed are men vs women (with mostly specious speculation), and the one URM paper you have listed indicates that URMs do worse on tests and grades but are equal in stupid **** like aseptic technique, informed consent, and surgical fire safety. Just playing devils advocate.

I think it's good to have URMs in all specialties. And to those complaining about how unfair it is, unfortunately residency selection is never going to be 100% merit based and the number of daddy-based and ass kissing-based people who get coveted residency spots are way worse than the URMs.

 

[W19]

You realize most of those examples you listed are men vs women (with mostly specious speculation), and the one URM paper you have listed indicates that URMs do worse on tests and grades but are equal in stupid **** like aseptic technique, informed consent, and surgical fire safety. Just playing devils advocate.

I think it's good to have URMs in all specialties. And to those complaining about how unfair it is, unfortunately residency selection is never going to be 100% merit based and the number of daddy-based and ass kissing-based people who get coveted residency spots are way worse than the URMs.

But but it's easier to bash URM...

 

[Hyde]

I think it's good to have URMs in all specialties. And to those complaining about how unfair it is, unfortunately residency selection is never going to be 100% merit based and the number of daddy-based and ass kissing-based people who get coveted residency spots are way worse than the URMs.

1. why is it good for patients to have URM's in SPECIALTIES who have inferior scores in board exams? There's no definitive verdict that I've read about better health outcomes for patients seeing URM family medicine physicians. Why do you believe it gets any better for patients ( we're not talking med school deans or PD's or gov't bean counters) being seen by specialists who are not the best of the best?

2. Please provide statistics about legacy candidates who have poor UG med school stats and get into highly competitive residencies. Crickets....

 

[Hyde]

But but it's easier to bash URM...

Where are the stats that support your theory?

 

[jakeislove]

Am I in the pre allo forum?

Where do you think they end up?

 

[Wordead]

1. why is it good for patients to have URM's in SPECIALTIES who have inferior scores in board exams? There's no definitive verdict that I've read about better health outcomes for patients seeing URM family medicine physicians. Why do you believe it gets any better for patients ( we're not talking med school deans or PD's or gov't bean counters) being seen by specialists who are not the best of the best?

2. Please provide statistics about legacy candidates who have poor UG med school stats and get into highly competitive residencies. Crickets....

1. Mostly because I have no desire to be around a homogenous group of people all day. No, I dont think it really improves patient care. But having a spanish speaking latina on our team makes rounds a lot faster instead of using the stupid tele-translator and explaining the plan is a lot easier with a physician. Nor do board scores end up selecting the best - plenty of high scoring people didnt match and sometimes that's for the best.

2. Do you need stats to tell that the sky is blue too? I'm in ENT, maybe that tells you something.

 

[Hyde]

1. Mostly because I have no desire to be around a homogenous group of people all day. No, I dont think it really improves patient care. But having a spanish speaking latina on our team makes rounds a lot faster instead of using the stupid tele-translator and explaining the plan is a lot easier with a physician. Nor do board scores end up selecting the best - plenty of high scoring people didnt match and sometimes that's for the best.

2. Do you need stats to tell that the sky is blue too? I'm in ENT, maybe that tells you something.

1. a Spanish speaking Latina on "the team" doesn't need to be an M.D.
2. show me the current legacy stats for residencies - hearsay doesn't cut it for me.
3. really improve? - LOL! - skin color of physicians does not improve patient outcomes, really or otherwise - in fact, some might suggest that it's racist of gov't bean counters and med school career climbers to wrongly infer better health outcomes for URM patients if they get URM physicians who have typically score very poorly in board exams. Patients want the best of the best when their lives hang in the balance.

 

[pd1112]

....the one URM paper you have listed indicates that URMs do worse on tests and grades but are equal in stupid **** like aseptic technique, informed consent, and surgical fire safety. Just playing devils advocate.

sdn lol never change

 

[BobbyB]

1. Mostly because I have no desire to be around a homogenous group of people all day. No, I dont think it really improves patient care. But having a spanish speaking latina on our team makes rounds a lot faster instead of using the stupid tele-translator and explaining the plan is a lot easier with a physician. Nor do board scores end up selecting the best - plenty of high scoring people didnt match and sometimes that's for the best.

2. Do you need stats to tell that the sky is blue too? I'm in ENT, maybe that tells you something.

because whites and asians are all carbon copies of each other right?

same socioeconomic status and same culture right?

Germans, Italians, and Russian people are the same. Same thing with Indians, Chinese, and Filipinos.

 

[Wordead]

1. a Spanish speaking Latina on "the team" doesn't need to be an M.D.
2. show me the current legacy stats for residencies - hearsay doesn't cut it for me.
3. really improve? - LOL! - skin color of physicians does not improve patient outcomes, really or otherwise - in fact, some might suggest that it's racist of gov't bean counters and med school career climbers to wrongly infer better health outcomes for URM patients if they get URM physicians who have typically score very poorly in board exams. Patients want the best of the best when their lives hang in the balance.

1. I dont think you've ever been on the wards to see how much having a non physician translator slows everything down.
2. Then stay blind to how the world, not just medicine, works.
3. Patients can pick whoever they want, there are plenty of white specialists if you want.

because whites and asians are all carbon copies of each other right?

same socioeconomic status and same culture right?

Germans, Italians, and Russian people are the same. Same thing with Indians, Chinese, and Filipinos.

No but I dont think it's a good thing for there to be even fewer blacks/latinos in medicine than there already are. Do note that I'm not in favor of AA to give a % of spots to URMs - I am in favor of having more URMs in medicine, all things equal. I simply dont have a good fair method, but that's not my problem. Do stop with the childish extrapolations.

 

[Hyde]

1. I dont think you've ever been on the wards to see how much having a non physician translator slows everything down.
2. Then stay blind to how the world, not just medicine, works.
3. Patients can pick whoever they want, there are plenty of white specialists if you want.

1. How does a physician with below average cognitive abilities, medical skills speed things up? And yes - shocking as it may be to some ( cover your elitist eyes!) - board exams measure smarts and knowledge.
2. I'm not blind. I'm saying political correctness for career advancement is bad for minority patients who want to be treated by the best of the best specialists. Patients don't give a crap about skin color of their oncologists. Look at PubMed. It's mainly med school careerists and gov't bean counters who do. In fact they twist themselves into pretzels trying to prove - in vain - that better health outcomes for minority patients are proven to be associated with brown, black physician skin color pigmentation.
3. No, URM patients cannot pick whomever they choose. They're often Medicaid patients. They get "appropriate" skin color physicians that politically correct desk jockeys in academia and gov't select for "the URM patients' greater good."
4. I'm not opposed to med school students of any skin pigmentation who earn their acceptance through excellent board scores like MCAT. What I am opposed to is the lie that URM applicants with sub par stats are accepted because of minority patients' greater good. That's nonsense. It's spin for med schools to get gov't grants and for the greater good of careers of desk jockeys in gov't and med school bureaucracy. Let's call a spade a spade.

 

[W19]

1. How does a physician with below average cognitive abilities, medical skills speed things up? And yes - shocking as it may be to some ( cover your elitist eyes!) - board exams measure smarts and knowledge.
2. I'm not blind. I'm saying political correctness for career advancement is bad for minority patients who want to be treated by the best of the best specialists. Patients don't give a crap about skin color of their oncologists. Look at PubMed. It's mainly med school careerists and gov't bean counters who do. In fact they twist themselves into pretzels trying to prove - in vain - that better health outcomes for minority patients are proven to be associated with brown, black physician skin color pigmentation.
3. No, URM patients cannot pick whomever they choose. They're often Medicaid patients. They get "appropriate" skin color physicians that politically correct desk jockeys in academia and gov't select for "the URM patients' greater good."

Practicing medicine should ONLY be about who can recall the Krebs cycle enzymes 🙄...

 

[olivarynucleus]

Some residencies do take into account race and gender. The Ortho PD at our school said they were specifically recruiting minorities. But this is SDN, a bunch of butt hurt Asians will rush into this thread and throw it off a cliff shortly.

 

[royalmedicus]

allow me to ask this stupid question...what are affirmative action, ORM and URM?

 

[NontradCA]

Its interesting how if a white dude says 'i'd feel more comfortable with a white man as my doctor' that's like, the worst thing on earth, but if a black woman wants a black woman doctor, that's cool because she needs to understand her diverse life experiences. even if the black lady doctor went to freakin Villanova

When do black patients say this? Lol.

 

[Hyde]

[QUOTE="olivarynucleus, post: 16719687, member: 701708" a bunch of butt hurt Asians will rush into this thread and throw it off a cliff shortly.[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Highly intelligent and motivated ( often SES fyi) Asians don't have the appropriate skin color pigmentation for competitive residencies and when they express concern, they're written off as being "butt hurt?" Nice.

Giving a leg up (often with a full $ ride) to URM's with sub par stats to get into med school - with the idea ( or so I've been told) that it's all about rural medicine and family medicine - is one thing . But then to find out that AA continues into SPECIALTIES/residency spot holders that have zero to do with FM or RM - is beyond shocking. Where's patients' best interests in all of this? But of course - patients don't matter - it's all about careers.

 

[W19]

I really don't why I had to write anything in this thread even if I told myself I was going to stay away from it... This UMRs debates are really contagious!🙁

 

[Hyde]

I really don't why I had to write anything in this thread even if I told myself I was going to stay away from it... This UMRs debates are really contagious!🙁

You have not written anything in this thread. So you're good.

 

[gobigorgohome22]

Would you hire a URM with a 210 step 1 and no honors over an Asian student with a 255 step 1 and AOA because of background/ethnicity when you entrust the lives of others into their own hands?

Personally, I would not. However, why does this argument not apply to medical school admissions? The only difference is that Medical school admissions is 4 years earlier than residency admission....