Affermative action regarding residency

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NontradCA said:
When do black patients say this? Lol.
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I think what @witzelsucht is pointing to is one of the main premise behind affirmative action.

The idea that a certain group of people would be better served by a physician from the same group than of a different group. Which is basically saying that if you're black, you would be better off with a black doctor than a white doctor. That would be perceived by most people as being "ok" for a patient to say. However, if it was the other way around (a white patient asking for a white doctor) most people see that patient as being "racist".
 
Everyone is human which means everyone is subjective which means personal biases come into play when being hired for a job, whether that is ethnic or not is irrelevant.
 
gobigorgohome22 said:
I think what @witzelsucht is pointing to is one of the main premise behind affirmative action.

The idea that a certain group of people would be better served by a physician from the same group than of a different group. Which is basically saying that if you're black, you would be better off with a black doctor than a white doctor. That would be perceived by most people as being "ok" for a patient to say. However, if it was the other way around (a white patient asking for a white doctor) most people see that patient as being "racist".
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Can you read? When do black patients do this? You're making an argument out of something that doesn't exist. Keep riding that losin the country train though.
 
No. This has been talked about a lot before. Top tier academic programs in competitive specialties want: 1) People who will for sure pass the board exam for that specialty. Nothing is more embarrassing for a program than their chiefs failing the boards. This is partially the reason Step 1 is the most important selection factor. Not only is it a standardized metric, but PDs take it as a sign that you're a good test taker and will pass the written boards for their specialty. 2) People who will publish and go into academics. This is why research is so huge for many programs in competitive specialties. 3) Good guys and girls who they can work with for 5 years and won't cause any trouble.

That's probably the reason that URM boosts are not given at the residency level. At the end of the day, I feel like getting residents who are highly likely to finish the program (instead of taking a risk on lower stats applicants) and will publish a ton and hopefully go into academics/make your program look good is seen as more important than potentially diversifying the pool. There are super cool guys and gals of every race so that's not really a swaying factor. I could *maybe* envision community programs taking that into account but the vast majority of academic places in competitive specialties won't. This boost was already given at the medical school level.
 
guys you're posting in a thread about affermative action
is this for real?
 
Wow, funny almost 20yrs after getting into med school this debate still rages...

From my experience 20% of my med school class was "black" ...and by that I mean skin color because that includes US citizen students native from the Caribbean, US, Africa or were multiracial.

Now it is an absolute logical fallacy to think all of the 80% of other students had better scores/grades than the black students, I think we can all agree on that.

The only student who dropped out was Asian and the official word was that he went on to "pursue other dreams", no one even assumed he couldn't cut it academically only that it wasn't his passion....hmmmm. ok. MOST of the students who took a leave of absence for whatever reason (vol or invol) were ORM.

A little know fact is that some of the highest achieving students in med school classes are the African students who for a variety of factors (intelligence, cultural ambition & expectations, parents who were highly educated many of which were physicians).

So basically seeing an URM or ORM and assuming all kinds of inferiority is asinine.

...for the person who made the point that a person can request an URM as a doctor at a clinic that is 100% false, requests for a female doctor are honored when possible but never a racial request.

Being a good doctor is all about loving most of what you do and loving most of the population you serve, it has nothing to do with knowing the Krebs cycle or naming all the bones in the hand (unless youre a hand surgeon of course...lol).

The information you need to master as a specialist will be presented to you via CME/boards/noon conferemce/case conference over, and over, and over and over again and no matter what your test scores were you will learn it. The reason scores are used are to weed out the pool of applicants on paper. When we go to hire a new doctor, nobody ever asks what their test scores were, and often they can work even if they aren't board certified yet.

Ill be happy for you all when you finish residency, your world will be so much more free because you will be judged less on "objective" criteria and will be free to develop other skills that will make you great.

*ok, off my soap box now...lol*
 
Since we are dealing purely in anecdotes here as in the above post , the three people who dropped out of medical school during the first year in my class were all black. Second year, one person dropped out who is black and one Asian person was held back.

No judgment offered here, simply stating facts.
 
W19 said:
Practicing medicine should ONLY be about who can recall the Krebs cycle enzymes 🙄...
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GVQCY.jpg


jw3600 said:
Can we keep the URM bickering to a minimum and answer the important questions? Like what the hell is surgical fire safety?
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Don't use the bovie next to an open oxygen source, point the argon laser away from the nitrous tanks, keep cigarettes away from the surgical field... etc, etc, etc.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Since we are dealing purely in anecdotes here as in the above post , the three people who dropped out of medical school during the first year in my class were all black. Second year, one person dropped out who is black and one Asian person was held back.

No judgment offered here, simply stating facts.
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Ok, any comments about the other points or did just that one stick with you?
 
Hyde said:
And yes - shocking as it may be to some ( cover your elitist eyes!) - board exams measure smarts and knowledge.
.
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Not necessarily true. As an MS4, I have found medical school to be quite unintellectual. It is a poor measure of intellect. And I have gotten questions which require a diagnosis despite a paucity of info. In real life, there is no way I would have made such diagnosis or treatment plan without additional studies. Thankfully I have done well so far in medical school, and I maintain that board exam scores are a very poor measure of what kind of physician you will be.
 
NontradCA said:
Can you read? When do black patients do this? You're making an argument out of something that doesn't exist. Keep riding that losin the country train though.
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I agree, I don't think black patients actually say this ever, or at least not frequently. But I think that administrators and ...you know, whatever you call it, political groups or what-have-you, say that "we need physicians/cops/F500 board members who REFLECT the COMMUNITY." Which is ludicrous, because even if the medical school class is such and such percentage black, it doesn't mean an individual's doctor will be black, particularly when the black kids want to be ortho/derm/gas just as much as everyone else. And if its a black doc, he might have a daddy with a country club membership anyway, so what does it matter?

But the point being that it is OK to say "black/hispanic patients are better suited by someone of their own race. Er...not race but someone with the same 'cultural experience'. But actually race." Saying the profession needs to reflect the community is implicitly saying that. OK spanish-speaking -- that's different, but you see where I'm going. And then there's some rambling pseudo-statistics about black kids more likely to practice medicine in underserved areas, well **** that, if you want underserved areas to have docs, just allow people to sign up for MS with a contract to go where they tell you. Works for the Army, works for any number of corporate "leadership development" programs. Works for top tier law firms (in a way). I'm sure there will be plenty of 26 MCATers who will jump at that, of ALL races. The black 26 MCATers will say no **** that I still have a decent shot of going to StateU MD school and being an opthalmologist if I "crush step 1."

And as far as calling me a "losing our country" guy, let me tell you, if things were the way I want I (white) probably wouldn't have a shot at a lot of opportunities like I do because the Indians and Orientals would have all the spots. And that's ok, because while I am probably as smart as them, I am not as hard working, and don't deserve it as much.
 
witzelsucht said:
And as far as calling me a "losing our country" guy, let me tell you, if things were the way I want I (white) probably wouldn't have a shot at a lot of opportunities like I do because the Indians and Orientals would have all the spots. And that's ok, because while I am probably as smart as them, I am not as hard working, and don't deserve it as much.
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^ cheers to you for taking my tongue and cheek response and showing that you actually fit the description. I don't know how else to reply. Read a Non medical book or something.
 
Cyal said:
Not necessarily true. As an MS4, I have found medical school to be quite unintellectual. It is a poor measure of intellect.
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Maybe you should have applied to the Department of Rocket Science instead?
 
witzelsucht said:
I agree, I don't think black patients actually say this ever, or at least not frequently. But I think that administrators and ...you know, whatever you call it, political groups or what-have-you, say that "we need physicians/cops/F500 board members who REFLECT the COMMUNITY." Which is ludicrous, because even if the medical school class is such and such percentage black, it doesn't mean an individual's doctor will be black, particularly when the black kids want to be ortho/derm/gas just as much as everyone else. And if its a black doc, he might have a daddy with a country club membership anyway, so what does it matter?


And as far as calling me a "losing our country" guy, let me tell you, if things were the way I want I (white) probably wouldn't have a shot at a lot of opportunities like I do because the Indians and Orientals would have all the spots. And that's ok, because while I am probably as smart as them, I am not as hard working, and don't deserve it as much.
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I was kinda with you until that last paragraph...whats an "oriental"?
 
Doctor Bob said:
Don't use the bovie next to an open oxygen source, point the argon laser away from the nitrous tanks, keep cigarettes away from the surgical field... etc, etc, etc.
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So it's really like OR fire safety? Seems strange to call it surgical fire safety. Anyways, cheers.
 
Well I'm a black guy who just finished with the match maybe I can contribute my observations.

In the specialty I applied to, there were a few of us with similar stats and application strategies. Obviously an insignificant sample size but basically this is how it boiled down:

Me: 260+ Step 1, AOA, some clinical honors, average research - Got 6 or 7 "top 20" interviews and matched at my #3 (a top 20ish program)
Asian kid: 260+, Junior AOA, some clinical honors, good research - Got slightly more "top 20" interviews, matched at a top 30ish place to stay in state (maybe 3rd or 4th on his list)
White Guy 1 - 255 Range, AOA, (his other stats were unknown by me) - Less top 20 interviews but Matched at his #1 (a top 20ish program)
White Guy 2 - 250 Range, - Less top 20 interviews Matched at his #1 (a top 20 program)

We all interviewed everywhere in our home state.

Of course no conclusions can be drawn from this incomplete data with many confounders (for example, I couples matched). But I think the take-away is that it certainly didn't feel like being an URM helped me unfairly in the match. Only one program I interviewed with made it clear that they recruited URMs specifically. Another PD told me that being an URM "will help with some places and will hurt with some places," he said some department heads just like to fill up with tall , good-looking white guys.

It seems to me like its a wash. Unless you're a gender applying to a field lacking your gender (or a very, very attractive person). Just kidding on that last part, kind of.
 
Ugen said:
Another PD told me that being an URM "will help with some places and will hurt with some places," he said some department heads just like to fill up with tall , good-looking white guys.

.
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So true, you should see how attending's and preceptors fawn over tall white guy applicants here. Its sickening.
 
cbrons said:
no its easier politically to bash peoplr with connections. Much easier
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And/or imaginary connections or privilege - these days a male being raised in a hetro Asian or Caucasian nuclear family is viewed in some quarters as being "an unfair advantage." Go figure.
 
Ugen said:
he said some department heads just like to fill up with tall , good-looking white guys.
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Weird thing for a PD to say. I assume he didn't have some or any of the characteristics he envied.
Your scores are out standing. Obviously skin color was a wash for you (as it should be imo).
A couple's match was the central ( some might say, impeding) issue.
But it sounds like you and your SO got what you wanted so all's well that end's well.
 
This thread has such a pre-MD mindset. I'm only one program with one example, but you guys put WAY too much stock into the numbers.

We're looking for co-workers, not spreadsheets when we choose residents. The final say is going to be dependent on where you fall on the "good to work with vs total weirdo" spectrum.

Sadly the people going on anti-AA rants aren't the type of people who work well with our high-URM patient populations.
 
WingedOx said:
This thread has such a pre-MD mindset. I'm only one program with one example, but you guys put WAY too much stock into the numbers.

We're looking for co-workers, not spreadsheets when we choose residents. The final say is going to be dependent on where you fall on the "good to work with vs total weirdo" spectrum.

Sadly the people going on anti-AA rants aren't the type of people who work well with our high-URM patient populations.
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does it go both ways?

people obsessed with social justice and the patriarchy wouldn't fit well with high white patient populations
 
DokterMom said:
There was a study published fairly recently that showed graduating seniors who were URM ranked a larger number of residencies than their ORM colleagues. I interpreted that to mean that they felt less confident in their ability to match, all other things being equal (which they never are).

So I'd take that to meant that there probably isn't - or certainly not much of - a basis in favor of selecting URM residency candidates. The exception would be, of course, for hospitals that served a significant proportion of members of a particular URM community.
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When you've had to fight an uphill battle your whole life, it's easy to be insecure in regard to the application process. I mean, when you're used to having to send out 50% more resumes to get a callback in the job market, why would you expect anything less when applying for residency?
 
Hyde said:
1. How does a physician with below average cognitive abilities, medical skills speed things up? And yes - shocking as it may be to some ( cover your elitist eyes!) - board exams measure smarts and knowledge.
2. I'm not blind. I'm saying political correctness for career advancement is bad for minority patients who want to be treated by the best of the best specialists. Patients don't give a crap about skin color of their oncologists. Look at PubMed. It's mainly med school careerists and gov't bean counters who do. In fact they twist themselves into pretzels trying to prove - in vain - that better health outcomes for minority patients are proven to be associated with brown, black physician skin color pigmentation.
3. No, URM patients cannot pick whomever they choose. They're often Medicaid patients. They get "appropriate" skin color physicians that politically correct desk jockeys in academia and gov't select for "the URM patients' greater good."
4. I'm not opposed to med school students of any skin pigmentation who earn their acceptance through excellent board scores like MCAT. What I am opposed to is the lie that URM applicants with sub par stats are accepted because of minority patients' greater good. That's nonsense. It's spin for med schools to get gov't grants and for the greater good of careers of desk jockeys in gov't and med school bureaucracy. Let's call a spade a spade.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22708247

Minority physicians actually serve underserved patients and communities. That's just a fact, that has been established in multiple studies. If you want everyone to get care, the best way to do it is to have a diverse physician workforce. There is also zero data that shows that the MCAT scores of physicians correlate to their later complication rates or other measures of quality physician performance. If you pass the boards and complete a residency, you're good enough to be a physician, period. Higher Step scores don't mean you'll be a better doctor, there's absolutely zero data to back any claim to the contrary (and hell, some of the worst physicians I've personally had in my life were ones that were educated at elite institutions and residencies).
 
Mad Jack said:
(and hell, some of the worst physicians I've personally had in my life were ones that were educated at elite institutions and residencies).
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And the best ones I've encountered went to schools & residencies out of nowhere. (Though I've only seen limited of them, just my personal n=1).
 
Would love to hear yalls criteria on "best" and "worst" doctors....sounds like you guys are equating bedside manner with quality of care. Higher press ganey score = better doctor, right?
 
Mad Jack said:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22708247

Minority physicians actually serve underserved patients and communities. That's just a fact, that has been established in multiple studies. If you want everyone to get care, the best way to do it is to have a diverse physician workforce. There is also zero data that shows that the MCAT scores of physicians correlate to their later complication rates or other measures of quality physician performance. If you pass the boards and complete a residency, you're good enough to be a physician, period. Higher Step scores don't mean you'll be a better doctor, there's absolutely zero data to back any claim to the contrary (and hell, some of the worst physicians I've personally had in my life were ones that were educated at elite institutions and residencies).
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1. I think you are conflating access to physicians with access to quality health care delivery.

2. MCAT scores are important predictors of success at med school.

3. Complication rates are a function of case complexity.

4. Higher Step scores seem to be highly valued by graduate PD's - especially by PD's of competitive, challenging. demanding specialties. But what do PD's know?
 
Hyde said:
1. I think you are conflating access to physicians with access to quality health care delivery.

2. MCAT scores are important predictors of success at med school.

3. Complication rates are a function of case complexity.

4. Higher Step scores seem to be highly valued by graduate PD's - especially by PD's of competitive, challenging. demanding specialties. But what do PD's know?
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Unless you're third year medical school student and up, your whole reality is tainted with tests and being in school. When you start meeting real people who are on drugs, homeless, abused, and are in the process of losing everything, you will realize how much your patients really care about test scores. Your reality is not everyone's reality. And once you really start experiencing the real world, you will understand no one cares about what you think. You will be subjected to playing along to make a living like everyone else. Doesn't matter what you believe my friend, the world is this way for a reason. If AA isn't around, many cities will go through what Baltimore has gone through. That's why there is AA in places like China (Han vs foreigners). Violence is a real thing....
 
Hyde said:
1. I think you are conflating access to physicians with access to quality health care delivery.

2. MCAT scores are important predictors of success at med school.

3. Complication rates are a function of case complexity.

4. Higher Step scores seem to be highly valued by graduate PD's - especially by PD's of competitive, challenging. demanding specialties. But what do PD's know?
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Lots of lol. I wonder how your worldview will change after med school, Mr. "Has not even completed MS1". You seem to overrate your intelligence and talk as if you have even finished residency. Lots of humble pie coming your way.

And lol at #4. Do you know even know what makes a specialty challenging and demanding, Mr. genius?

Anyways, keep rolling high and mighty. You think you have a clue, but you don't.
 
twospadz said:
If AA isn't around, many cities will go through what Baltimore has gone through. That's why there is AA in places like China (Han vs foreigners). Violence is a real thing....
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What do you mean by associating AA and violence?
Are you suggesting that unless there's AA, there would be more violence?
If so, that's a pretty cynical, exceedingly grim outlook to have.
 
Hyde said:
1. I think you are conflating access to physicians with access to quality health care delivery.

2. MCAT scores are important predictors of success at med school.

3. Complication rates are a function of case complexity.

4. Higher Step scores seem to be highly valued by graduate PD's - especially by PD's of competitive, challenging. demanding specialties. But what do PD's know?
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The largest factor affecting population level care is access. MCAT scores are only predictors of success up to a certain point- anyone scoring below a 24 is substantially mire likely to fail, but above that score, the difference in success is marginal. Complication rates for the same complexity of case vary largely between providers, so clearly, complexity is not the only factor at play. Finally, Step scores are used as selection criteria because they predict success on the specialty boards, another set of tests that are very different from actual practice, they simply exist to assess the minimum knowledge and skills required for board certification. Higher first time pass rates result in a higher program rank, but higher ranked programs are not guaranteed to provide higher quality care.
 
Hyde said:
MS1 fyi with multiple acceptances and despite being an ORM.
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MS-1 as in just started, or finished first year and going into second? Not that it matters...

I mean, there's only two to three URM seats per school, it's not like they're a huge factor in the competition. I wouldn't really say "despite" being ORM lol.

Not that any of this affects residency admissions- AA really doesn't much exist, aside from mission-based admits to certain programs.
 
Hyde said:
What do you mean by associating AA and violence?
Are you suggesting that unless there's AA, there would be more violence?
If so, that's a pretty cynical, exceedingly grim outlook to have.
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If you can't see there is a link between inequality and crime/violence that exists in America, you shouldn't be a doctor.
 
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