Affirmative Action Case and Medical School

[Hemorrage]

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Wow... 🙂 At least you are honest about how you feel. I'll give you that.

Just out of curiousity how do you figure it is the URM's own fault they are under represented. I would love to hear your thought process on this...Fair warning though...if you decide to answer this question, think carefully about your answer ...because my intention is to give you a very long rope to pull and then hog tie you with it and roast you over a fire.

BTW...you realize that you, in those two posts, expilictly stated why programs like AA and its derivatives are necessary right?

take your rope and shove it up your ass, i'm not turning this into a flame war.

this thread is so full of the typical human condition when it comes to an argument. One side (the one being aligned with the criticized topic) tirelessly attacks the criticizers but hardly offers any real constructive argument other than "you are wrong because i think you are". I'm not saying the Anti-AA proponents such as myself are perfect either, however, at least i am straightforward with my judgement and offer logical reasoning to backup my thought process. If a Pro-AA individual can logically tell me how state-sponsored discrimination (at a state tax funded medical school) is in any way fair, please tell me. Otherwise stay out of it.

 

[RomanTaylor]

And RROUUNNDDDing the corner into page 6....

 

[Thego2guy]

I said I wouldn't come back into this, but I just need to say this:



YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know it's so hard for many people to believe but IT HAPPENS!!!!!!!!!!!! IT MATTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't care what you personally think about it, it does occur.

Sorry for the caps and exclamation points, but people don't tend to listen and always bring this up....

And besides, how many times do we need to say that GPA/MCAT don't always matter. You can be the 100th most intelligent doctor (or the bottom of your med school class) and still treat 99.9% of the cases you see. Real-life medicine is not House. Yes, sometimes you have to spot the zebra, but in most cases, being the smartest doctor is completely useless.

Being able to communicate with patients is significantly more important. If a patient doesn't trust you and doesn't provide you with the information you need (history is more important than tests by the way) then you can be the smartest person in the world, and you will not be able to treat the patient as well as a physician who is way less intelligent.
There, now I'm done.

YES!!!!!!!! X1000000000000000000000
👍👍👍👍👍 yes yes yes!! Living in NYC, seeing and working in these illiterate, poor, and ignorant neighborhoods, I attest to this 100%. Whether I am in Brooklyn, Manhattan, or Queens...medicine or social work, or cablevision services, this ignorant mistrust and disrespect is rampant across this city and across all fields of service. Anecdotal or not, it doesn't matter because that is the reality...at least in this city.

 

[LaughingMan]

And RROUUNNDDDing the corner into page 6....

??

This has no contribution whatsoever to this thread?

 

[commserver]

If you look at Stuyvenson, Bronx Science High or UCB, you may conclude that affirmative action protects whites as well. You list yourself as caucasian.

You forgot Hunter College HS.

The schools that you mentioned all very high concentrations of Asian Americans.

I hear that UCLA and UCB have in recent years have up to 50% Asians. This has gotten higher as California has begun to accept students more on there records. Fewer Hispanic and African Americans are getting accepted.

If you look at SAT statistics you will see that Asian Americans consistently score as well if not better than Whites do.

The Whites have reason to feel threatened.

 

[Freesia88]

take your rope and shove it up your ass, i'm not turning this into a flame war.

This thread is so full of the typical human condition when it comes to an argument. One side (the one being aligned with the criticized topic) tirelessly attacks the criticizers but hardly offers any real constructive argument other than "you are wrong because i think you are". I'm not saying the anti-aa proponents such as myself are perfect either, however, at least i am straightforward with my judgement and offer logical reasoning to backup my thought process. If a pro-aa individual can logically tell me how state-sponsored discrimination (at a state tax funded medical school) is in any way fair, please tell me. Otherwise stay out of it.

 

[45408]

The Whites have reason to feel threatened.

Less than 50% of babies born in the US last year were white, non-Hispanic.

http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/17/census-2011-data-confirm-trend-of-population-diversity/

 

[RomanTaylor]

??

This has no contribution whatsoever to this thread?

Read a few pages back, I've said my piece.

The previous post was to express my exasperation in that this conversation is STILL going on. Six pages, and the real root of the issue has be hit on again and again and again, that any further debate is moot.

How many threads will be devoted to this?! How many bloody pages are going to be filled this time with people saying the same thing over and over again, ad nauseum?

It's getting ridiculous. It really is. But you want another contribution? Alright, here you go:

1) Most premeds are neurotic, especially the ones that spend a lot of time on here.

2) The premeds that are not considered URMs that are taking up the sword against AA are only worried about one thing: You are worried about someone you consider not worthy of your coveted medical school seat taking what you obviously deserve and they don't.

3) You are not worried about "social justice" or "racial equality" or "reversed racism." This is strictly selfish and based ONLY on you and your dreams of medical school matriculation.

4) This has gone on far enough.


The moment you stop lying to yourself...we can move on to more productive things. Because THIS wheel is only spinning on rollers, and it's not going anywhere.

 

[LaughingMan]

Read a few pages back, I've said my piece.

The previous post was to express my exasperation in that this conversation is STILL going on. Six pages, and the real root of the issue has be hit on again and again and again, that any further debate is moot.

How many threads will be devoted to this?! How many bloody pages are going to be filled this time with people saying the same thing over and over again, ad nauseum?

It's getting ridiculous. It really is. But you want another contribution? Alright, here you go:

1) Most premeds are neurotic, especially the ones that spend a lot of time on here.

2) The premeds that are not considered URMs that are taking up the sword against AA are only worried about one thing: You are worried about someone you consider not worthy of your coveted medical school seat taking what you obviously deserve and they don't.

3) You are not worried about "social justice" or "racial equality" or "reversed racism." This is strictly selfish and based ONLY on you and your dreams of medical school matriculation.

4) This has gone on far enough.


The moment you stop lying to yourself...we can move on to more productive things. Because THIS wheel is only spinning on rollers, and it's not going anywhere.

If this is your opinion of those who dislike AA--then I feel it's best we should not discuss this matter further.

 

[commserver]

How do you break the cycle? I see that that many students come from schools that aren't teaching anything. Too many students go to college from HS that shouldn't be in college in the 1st place. They are just the victims of education system that has failed them and society.

There is no easy solution to this. Yet I am a firm believer that everything starts at the home. Too many parents don't really care about their children's education. They don't want to spend the money to further their education. Too much emphasis is placed on athletics not on the the 3 Rs.

I was willing to make sacrifices to give my child the best opportunities. The child is in 4th year at Williams College and preparing to apply to medical school for MD/PHD. I believe that my sacrifices are worth it.

The same can't be said about other parents. Too many complain about not being able to afford getting prep help. Yet they are able to get flashy clothes and jewelry. It is a matter of priorities.

 

[RomanTaylor]

If this is your opinion of those who dislike AA--then I feel it's best we should not discuss this matter further.

Yes. Perhaps.

 

[TipToad]

For anybody claiming state-sponsored discrimination, here's another applicable comic.

 

[La Presse]

For anybody claiming state-sponsored discrimination, here's another applicable comic.

🙄

 

[TipToad]

On a more serious note.

Without any "tireless attacks" on the criticizers, here's my logic for supporting AA/URM/diversity in medical schools. The best applicants get accepted. The best white applicants, the best asians applicants, the best black applicants, and the best hispanic applicant. LizzyM has said this before: be the best applicant from your pool, and you will get accepted.

I've had many resources growing up that other people did not have. Many of my friends have had these same resources. My friends who are URM did not, yet they have achieved the same things I have. In my mind, they've achieved more just because they started on a lower playing field.

What is unfair? It's unfair that some students have to go through more sh** just to play catch up with the rest of us. And when they succeed, we choose to berate them for being unqualified. In fact, URM students are not taking up many seats in medical schools at all. If you look at the statistics from any school, you will see that few students are actually URM. Many URM students end up in schools that work to actively recruit only URM candidates. Chances are, if you get rejected from a school, it's not because a black kid took your seat.

You may read all those statistics charts as I initially did and come to the conclusion that being URM means your chances of becoming a doctor are very high. In fact, that's false. Being born URM means that your chance of becoming a doctor is actually very very low. Any URM student who gets that far and deserves to get accepted should get accepted. Medical school isn't all about numbers. If it was, everybody with less than a 31 would get rejected.

 

[MiracleforMD]

For anybody claiming state-sponsored discrimination, here's another applicable comic.

There is some truth to this comic, but it is not so black and white.

 

[Barcu]

take your rope and shove it up your ass, i'm not turning this into a flame war.

this thread is so full of the typical human condition when it comes to an argument. One side (the one being aligned with the criticized topic) tirelessly attacks the criticizers but hardly offers any real constructive argument other than "you are wrong because i think you are". I'm not saying the Anti-AA proponents such as myself are perfect either, however, at least i am straightforward with my judgement and offer logical reasoning to backup my thought process. If a Pro-AA individual can logically tell me how state-sponsored discrimination (at a state tax funded medical school) is in any way fair, please tell me. Otherwise stay out of it.

Both sides have their flamers, but if you couldn't pull out any logical arguments out of the previous six pages (which included plenty personal anecdotes and TWO scientific studies) then I suggest you go back and refresh. You are free to disagree, but I'm a bit annoyed you can't see ANY logic behind my arguments as well as some of the other pro-URM posters.

I think personal insults are a dumb way to debate too, so don't take it too personally 👍

 

[Barcu]

On a more serious note.

Without any "tireless attacks" on the criticizers, here's my logic for supporting AA/URM/diversity in medical schools. The best applicants get accepted. The best white applicants, the best asians applicants, the best black applicants, and the best hispanic applicant. LizzyM has said this before: be the best applicant from your pool, and you will get accepted.

I've had many resources growing up that other people did not have. Many of my friends have had these same resources. My friends who are URM did not, yet they have achieved the same things I have. In my mind, they've achieved more just because they started on a lower playing field.

What is unfair? It's unfair that some students have to go through more sh** just to play catch up with the rest of us. And when they succeed, we choose to berate them for being unqualified. In fact, URM students are not taking up many seats in medical schools at all. If you look at the statistics from any school, you will see that few students are actually URM. Many URM students end up in schools that work to actively recruit only URM candidates. Chances are, if you get rejected from a school, it's not because a black kid took your seat.

You may read all those statistics charts as I initially did and come to the conclusion that being URM means your chances of becoming a doctor are very high. In fact, that's false. Being born URM means that your chance of becoming a doctor is actually very very low. Any URM student who gets that far and deserves to get accepted should get accepted. Medical school isn't all about numbers. If it was, everybody with less than a 31 would get rejected.

Please also don't forget about the benefits patients receive. After all, that is why we go to med school...right?

 

[TipToad]

Please also don't forget about the benefits patients receive. After all, that is why we go to med school...right?

Of course. That is a big part of URM. But that point was debated tireless to no avail for the past 5 pages so I didn't really feel like elaborating further.

 

[Barcu]

Of course. That is a big part of URM. But that point was debated tireless to no avail for the past 5 pages so I didn't really feel like elaborating further.

Touche. However, I think that is the bigger selling point, which actually distinguishes URM from just AA.

 

[Freesia88]

Both sides have their flamers, but if you couldn't pull out any logical arguments out of the previous six pages (which included plenty personal anecdotes and TWO scientific studies) then I suggest you go back and refresh. You are free to disagree, but I'm a bit annoyed you can't see ANY logic behind my arguments as well as some of the other pro-URM posters.

I think personal insults are a dumb way to debate too, so don't take it too personally 👍

Please also don't forget about the benefits patients receive. After all, that is why we go to med school...right?

What I was actually hoping he/she would do - since none of the arguments which so far have been forwarded for AA type programs in the countless threads on the topic seem to make any kind of sense to him/her, and since he/she obviously has access to insights that the rest of us do not - was to take a look at the factors that put Native Americans, African Americans and Hispanic Americans in the situation they are in and tell me how any of those factors was entirely their fault, such that they do not deserve some consideration.

Then I was going to (politely of course) find the cracks and assumptions and prejudices and ignorance which was bound to be in there, given the sheer stupidity, entitlement and selfishness of his statements, and lay them at his/her feet.

Ironically, I didn't even have to do anything, he brought the rope and did it all himself.

Who cares about patients? 😉

 

[LaughingMan]

First time I'm actually fulfilling my SDN username.

Governments role in this has yet to be addressed. The inclusion of a racially-charged picture did nothing but add to the flaming.

Mandating your morality is preposterus. If you feel URMs have a tougher time (which they do), then you can do as you please to help them be the best they can be--but do not use the state to enforce this.

 

[kpcrew]

Why do you keep posting those stupid "comics" that aren't accurate, original or funny?

 

[Barcu]

First time I'm actually fulfilling my SDN username.

Governments role in this has yet to be addressed. The inclusion of a racially-charged picture did nothing but add to the flaming.

Mandating your morality is preposterus. If you feel URMs have a tougher time (which they do), then you can do as you please to help them be the best they can be--but do not use the state to enforce this.

I actually did respond to you, but you must have missed it in the long stream of posts.

I believe that the state has an interest in promoting patient diversity because it is the biggest consumer of healthcare, and the uninsured and government-insured patients are disproportionately made up of minorities (which the government ends up paying for). There are benefits for individual patients and society as a whole (better healthcare overall) if the patient population matches the physician population.

Plus, state med schools tend to produce many primary care physicians (see the US News Rankings for primary care, plus they are cheaper so a student may be more likely to choose primary care). Primary care is where URMs are needed most.

Private schools, on the other hand, have very little incentive to promote diversity.

I believe that we have a very different view on the role of government, so I don't expect you to agree.

My support of the URM designation is not "moral." From personal experience, as well as from studies I have read, physician diversity leads to better health outcomes. This benefits us all through a healthier population, which I guess is a good thing morally but also saves us all money and helps society overall. I'm not trying to legislate morality. I'm using all the factors available (again, there are many factors) to select the best physicians to treat the population.

 

[Freesia88]

First time I'm actually fulfilling my SDN username.

Governments role in this has yet to be addressed. The inclusion of a racially-charged picture did nothing but add to the flaming.

Mandating your morality is preposterus. If you feel URMs have a tougher time (which they do), then you can do as you please to help them be the best they can be--but do not use the state to enforce this.

Laws enforced (sometimes to the point of death) by the government did not do anything to contribute to the current state of affairs for African Americans, Native Americans and Hispanics did they?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I haven't heard of any laws passed recently in Asian American dominant states which enabled police officers to demand proof of legal residence from any one who "looks like an illegral immigrant."

I could cite laws which for hundreds of years were deliberately designed to keep Blacks and Native Americans out of the mainstream... but that would be over stating my point.

The collective application of laws such as these is what has in the past put these minroity groups on the disadvantage...the fear that drove these laws in the first place and the mistrust on both sides spawned by these laws was not removed when the laws were overturned and that is what continues to contribute to the underrepresentation and marginalization of these racial groups in so many areas.

Without government intervention, the situation is going to get much much worse. If the current medical climate is anything to go by, asian and white doctors are not clamoring to go work in underserved/poor areas which just so happen to be populated mostly by Native American/Hispanic and black people. So why get all upset when action is taken to make sure that these people are not left behind? You want a solution? Get your degree and go do the job.

But then it is their fault they are in that mess to begin with and it is not anyone's business what becomes of them right?

 

[LaughingMan]

I actually did respond to you, but you must have missed it in the long stream of posts.

I believe that the state has an interest in promoting patient diversity because it is the biggest consumer of healthcare, and the uninsured and government-insured patients are disproportionately made up of minorities (which the government ends up paying for). There are benefits for individual patients and society as a whole (better healthcare overall) if the patient population matches the physician population.

Plus, state med schools tend to produce many primary care physicians (see the US News Rankings for primary care, plus they are cheaper so a student may be more likely to choose primary care). Primary care is where URMs are needed most.

Private schools, on the other hand, have very little incentive to promote diversity.

I believe that we have a very different view on the role of government, so I don't expect you to agree.

My support of the URM designation is not "moral." From personal experience, as well as from studies I have read, physician diversity leads to better health outcomes. This benefits us all through a healthier population, which I guess is a good thing morally but also saves us all money and helps society overall. I'm not trying to legislate morality. I'm using all the factors available (again, there are many factors) to select the best physicians to treat the population.

Interesting answer overall. I think I understand your arguement. Thank You.

Why do you keep posting those stupid "comics" that aren't accurate, original or funny?

+1

 

[LaughingMan]

Laws enforced (sometimes to the point of death) by the government did not do anything to contribute to the current state of affairs for African Americans, Native Americans and Hispanics did they?

You are correct they did--and it is unfortunate--but it is in the past. Asians also faced this discrimination might I add.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I haven't heard of any laws passed recently in Asian American dominant states which enabled police officers to demand proof of legal residence from any one who "looks like an illegral immigrant."

The laws on immigration are not the focus of the discussion. Don't know why you brought this up.

I could cite laws which for hundreds of years were deliberately designed to keep Blacks and Native Americans out of the mainstream... but that would be over stating my point.

The collective application of laws such as these is what has in the past put these minroity groups on the disadvantage...the fear that drove these laws in the first place and the mistrust on both sides spawned by these laws was not removed when the laws were overturned and that is what continues to contribute to the underrepresentation and marginalization of these racial groups in so many areas.

Without government intervention, the situation is going to get much much worse

1st Paragraph - I agree
2nd Paragraph - Interesting--could you elaborate?
3rd Paragraph - Perhaps it will. This is unknown.

 

[Freesia88]

1. You are correct they did--and it is unfortunate--but it is in the past. Asians also faced this discrimination might I add.



2. The laws on immigration are not the focus of the discussion. Don't know why you brought this up.




1st Paragraph - I agree
2nd Paragraph - Interesting--could you elaborate?
3rd Paragraph - Perhaps it will. This is unknown.

1. It is in the past you say? Let me ask you this. If the Jews after the holocaust had not received and did not continue to receive the backing of the United States do you think Israel would be the powerhouse it is today? We should have told them " The Holocaust and the psychological devastation it caused is in the past. Get over it." Do us all a favor would you, bring in information about the kinds of discrimination faced by Asian Americans and how they rose to the challenge (without government sponsored programs to ensure their opportunitiesof course...)

2. But it is all connected don't you see? How is a hispanic child supposed to get any kind of confidence in his place in the country and acquire any kind of sense of value of himself if he grows up seeing people of his race being targetted for their race? I am black and from another country but I bet you if I was in one of those states where such laws are in effect the chances of me getting stopped and asked to proove me legal residency are slim.


*** Addressing the paragraphs next.

 

[La Presse]

1 It is in the past you say? Let me ask you this. If the Jews after the holocaust had not received and did not continue to receive the backing of the United States do you think Israel would be the powerhouse it is today? We should have told them " The Holocaust and the psychological devastation it caused is in the past. get over it."

2. But it is all connected don't you see? How is a hispanic child supposed to get any kind of confidence in his place in the country and acquire any kind of sense of value of himself if he grows up seeing people of his race being targetted for their race? I am black and from another country but I bet you if I was in one of those states where such laws are in effect the chances of me getting stopped and asked to proove me legal residency are slim.


*** Addressing the paragraphs next.

O lawd! Those are very relevant examples. Now, to all you butt frustrated premeds, apply that to the sole purpose of AA.

 

[Freesia88]

1st Paragraph - I agree
2nd Paragraph - Interesting--could you elaborate?
3rd Paragraph - Perhaps it will. This is unknown.

.


Edit : I actually see what you meant now... sorry.

1. 🙂

2. Why were laws such as those which alienated and marginalized minorities, including Asians put into effect? Fear. Plain and simple. What did those laws give rise to? events and actions which only went further to ingrain this fear on both sides and spawn deep mistrust. Removing the law did not remove any of this fear and mistrust. Saying that colored and white could use the same bathrooms, attend the same schools and work the same jobs did not mean white people welcomed colored with open arms into their system.. Without programs like AA and its derivatives, minorities would likely be even more behind in all areas than they are now. Asian Americans have, in a shorter time, gotten to their feet. Good for them. To turn around and start pointing accusatory fingers especially when the depth of their margnalization does not even come close to what say Native Americans faced is just... there are no words. And why do I not see more animosity towards programs for Native Americans? Why are African Americans and Hispanics the ones with the target on their back? The issues that AA type programs are trying to address are bigger than one groups sense of what they deserve. Asian Americans are hard workers. I actually have a lot of respect for them. The issue at hand here is getting care to people who need it and sorry, if you are not going to step up to the plate, don't throw a hissy fir when some one is brought in to do the job.

3. Unknown, and none your business as long as you get into medical school right? Your right to be a doctor is bigger than the needs of the patients you puport to serve.

 

[MiracleforMD]

1. It is in the past you say? Let me ask you this. If the Jews after the holocaust had not received and did not continue to receive the backing of the United States do you think Israel would be the powerhouse it is today? We should have told them " The Holocaust and the psychological devastation it caused is in the past. Get over it." Do us all a favor would you, bring in information about the kinds of discrimination faced by Asian Americans and how they rose to the challenge (without government sponsored programs to ensure their opportunitiesof course...)

2. But it is all connected don't you see? How is a hispanic child supposed to get any kind of confidence in his place in the country and acquire any kind of sense of value of himself if he grows up seeing people of his race being targetted for their race? I am black and from another country but I bet you if I was in one of those states where such laws are in effect the chances of me getting stopped and asked to proove me legal residency are slim.


*** Addressing the paragraphs next.

You realize that the US involvement in WWII was more due to threat of the Nazi regime and Japanese aggression at Pearl Harbor and they were more or less unaware of the Holocaust right?

 

[Freesia88]

How do you break the cycle? I see that that many students come from schools that aren't teaching anything. Too many students go to college from HS that shouldn't be in college in the 1st place. They are just the victims of education system that has failed them and society.

There is no easy solution to this. Yet I am a firm believer that everything starts at the home. Too many parents don't really care about their children's education. They don't want to spend the money to further their education. Too much emphasis is placed on athletics not on the the 3 Rs.

I was willing to make sacrifices to give my child the best opportunities. The child is in 4th year at Williams College and preparing to apply to medical school for MD/PHD. I believe that my sacrifices are worth it.

The same can't be said about other parents. Too many complain about not being able to afford getting prep help. Yet they are able to get flashy clothes and jewelry. It is a matter of priorities.

You make very valid points. I will assume that African Americans are who you have in mind becasue I see nothing in your statements that apply relevantly to Native Americans or Hispanics.

Think about it...when discriminatory policies were in place towards African Americans what were the two areas where they could still excel in in spite of segregation and all that? Music and Sports. Think about the 1900's to the 1970's. How many well known Black scholars came out of that period? How many well known Athletes? How many well known Entertainers? Are you shocked then that these are the two areas where they seem to de best in?

Ofcourse education was not emphasized and mostly continues not to be. For the last couple hundred years educating blacks was a crime. They were continually told by their "betters" that they were dumb, and education was not for them. A black person could be a super star singer but black kids could not get into good schools or even universities. What did you expect to come out of that? A community of people hungering and thirsting for academic knowledge?

 

[Silo004]

You realize that the US involvement in WWII was more due to threat of the Nazi regime and Japanese aggression at Pearl Harbor and they were more or less unaware of the Holocaust right?

Just a point of clarification

Roosevelt was fairly aware, but he didn't do anything.

 

[Freesia88]

You realize that the US involvement in WWII was more due to threat of the Nazi regime and Japanese aggression at Pearl Harbor and they were more or less unaware of the Holocaust right?

Oooh but after that? Who was the State of Israels biggest champion? Do you have any idea how much money and resources the US poured and continues to pour into supporting Israel? How many agreements between the two countries exist to keep Israel afloat?

Take away US support and Israel would probably not last a decade.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Its completely unfair that black and latino students can take spots that should go to hardworking and, frankly, more intelligent applicants with better backgrounds.

The only exception I can really see being justified is for LGBT students.

:spits out drink:, lol, I'd love to go head to head with you in class on a test

 

[kpcrew]

1. It is in the past you say? Let me ask you this. If the Jews after the holocaust had not received and did not continue to receive the backing of the United States do you think Israel would be the powerhouse it is today? We should have told them " The Holocaust and the psychological devastation it caused is in the past. Get over it." Do us all a favor would you, bring in information about the kinds of discrimination faced by Asian Americans and how they rose to the challenge (without government sponsored programs to ensure their opportunitiesof course...)

2. But it is all connected don't you see? How is a hispanic child supposed to get any kind of confidence in his place in the country and acquire any kind of sense of value of himself if he grows up seeing people of his race being targetted for their race? I am black and from another country but I bet you if I was in one of those states where such laws are in effect the chances of me getting stopped and asked to proove me legal residency are slim.


*** Addressing the paragraphs next.

Jews were hated because of their success which can be attributed to their emphasis on education. They didn't earn 1/5 of the Nobel Prizes awarded thus far by sitting on their asses and begging for government handouts. Israel as a state might have been overwhelmed in the Six Day War if it weren't for American military assistance but individuals would probably have continued to do well. And there have been plenty of cases of discrimination against Asians like the Chinese Exclusion Act and the internment camps without even looking at what was done in Asia. These events were unpleasant but they're largely irrelevant for people living in the present.

 

[MiracleforMD]

Oooh but after that? Who was the State of Israels biggest champion? Do you have any idea how much money and resources the US poured and continues to pour into supporting Israel? How many agreements between the two countries exist to keep Israel afloat?

Take away US support and Israel would probably not last a decade.

Agree with the hypothesis. Do not agree with the underlying motive. It was less about support for a persecuted group and more about having a ally in a hostile area. And in terms of modern day support, NO ONE wants Israel to be attacked or feel threatened because they are an intense group and have a more powerful nuclear arsenal than the US. It is a lose-lose for everyone if they start hitting the button.

Just a point of clarification

Roosevelt was fairly aware, but he didn't do anything.

Yeah, I think he was somewhat aware, just not to the true extent (read: attempted eradication of an ethnic group)

 

[Freesia88]

Jews were hated because of their success which can be attributed to their emphasis on education. They didn't earn 1/5 of the Nobel Prizes awarded thus far by sitting on their asses and begging for government handouts. Israel as a state might have been overwhelmed in the Six Day War if it weren't for American military assistance but individuals would probably have continued to do well. And there have been plenty of cases of discrimination against Asians like the Chinese Exclusion Act and the internment camps without even looking at what was done in Asia. These events were unpleasant but they're largely irrelevant for people living in the present.

You forget that the whole idea of the State of Israel came into existence after WW2. Jews were successful before that, but after the havoc Hitler caused I doubt Jews would have been able to rally and become the force they are now if the US had not supported them every step of the way with massive grants and other resources including assisting them with setting up a country of their own.

And what removed those discriminatory laws and ensured that Asian Americans could enter the schools of their choice and be on par with everybody else? What actions carried out by the government made it possible that schools could not refuse to admit chinese american kids becasue they looked and talked different? What opened the doors of opportunity which you have taken advantage of so well? Sure as **** wasn't your higher intelligence, sir. It's funny how easy you forget that once upon a time, Asian Americans benefitted from AA and its derivatives.

So by your logic a person who suffered deep psychological trauma in the past underwent something unpleasant which should be largely irrelevant to them in the present....interesting.

Agree with the hypothesis. Do not agree with the underlying motive. It was less about support for a persecuted group and more about having a ally in a hostile area. And in terms of modern day support, NO ONE wants Israel to be attacked or feel threatened because they are an intense group and have a more powerful nuclear arsenal than the US. It is a lose-lose for everyone if they start hitting the button.



Yeah, I think he was somewhat aware, just not to the true extent (read: attempted eradication of an ethnic group)

Let us go with your "ally in a hostile area" analogy for a bit. Are you saying that it is better to leave hundreds of thousands of blacks, hispanics and native americans (hostile area...and with good reason) without care than to have a program which at least tries to provide them with people who would meet those care needs (ally) ?

 

[MiracleforMD]

Let us go with your "ally in a hostile area" analogy for a bit. Are you saying that it is better to leave hundreds of thousands of blacks, hispanics and native americans (hostile area...and with good reason) without care than to have a program which at least tries to provide them with people who would meet those care needs (ally) ?

I have not been and will never be participating in a AA/URM debate on SDN.

 

[Freesia88]

I have not been and will never be participating in a AA/URM debate on SDN.

You're better off for it, trust me.🙂

 

[Hemorrage]

What I was actually hoping he/she would do - since none of the arguments which so far have been forwarded for AA type programs in the countless threads on the topic seem to make any kind of sense to him/her, and since he/she obviously has access to insights that the rest of us do not - was to take a look at the factors that put Native Americans, African Americans and Hispanic Americans in the situation they are in and tell me how any of those factors was entirely their fault, such that they do not deserve some consideration.

Then I was going to (politely of course) find the cracks and assumptions and prejudices and ignorance which was bound to be in there, given the sheer stupidity, entitlement and selfishness of his statements, and lay them at his/her feet.

Ironically, I didn't even have to do anything, he brought the rope and did it all himself.

Who cares about patients? 😉

You have done nothing except be a nuisance on this thread, aside from criticizing anti-AA supporters, you haven't brought any viable argument to the table. So until you do that i suggest you stay out of this. The point that i was trying to make involves the following: why should state funded medical schools get to practice AA tactics in admissions if the funding they receive is from the government? Everyone pays taxes, and if you wanted to get even more tactical, lower socioeconomic families end up paying much less (after tax refunds, etc) than higher income families do. These schools RUN on the government money, and if they are willing to discriminate based on whether your asian or white then we aren't any better off today than we were before the civil rights movement. Remember, MLK didn't want equality only for african americans but also people of every color, race and ethnicity.

For all the Pro-AA Haters that are URM, please just shut up unless your going to contribute a reasonable argument because your going to benefit regardless of what we say on SDN. And finally, YES, most of us that are anti-AA are doing it for ourselves, not for the benefit of the patient population. Why is that so "evil"? You would think if one works hard, achieves good grades, gets a good MCAT score, shadows, volunteers, etc that they deserve an EQUAL opportunity.

 

[Barcu]

For all the Pro-AA Haters that are URM, please just shut up unless your going to contribute a reasonable argument because your going to benefit regardless of what we say on SDN. And finally, YES, most of us that are anti-AA are doing it for ourselves, not for the benefit of the patient population. Why is that so "evil"? You would think if one works hard, achieves good grades, gets a good MCAT score, shadows, volunteers, etc that they deserve an EQUAL opportunity.

I am not URM, so I will comment.

I don't think there is anything "evil" about what you are saying. I just think there is an inability to understand how these issues actually affect the practice of medicine. To be interested in maximizing your own chances is fine. But maximize your own chances by improving your application. Coming on and criticizing URMs and claiming to be a superior candidate (mostly just because of better scores-again, these don't matter as much as you think) is what is drawing these "evil" comments.

Everyone also tends to overestimate how much URM designation actually affects them. Of all the factors you have to worry about in med admissions, URMs are not what you should be worrying about. If you have a good gpa/MCAT, good essays and LORs, and good ECs, you have zero reason to worry about URMs. Good candidates are not being squeezed out by URMs.

I'm not going to rehash the arguments because I have talked about them at length, but I have outlined why the URM designation is good for physicians, patients, and society at large (and why the government should be involved). If you want to talk about those, fine. Just please stop saying that no logical arguments are being presented and refusing to respond to the ones that are out there. Whether you agree or not with them, I tend to find my arguments logical. 😀

 

[La Presse]

You have done nothing except be a nuisance on this thread, aside from criticizing anti-AA supporters, you haven't brought any viable argument to the table. So until you do that i suggest you stay out of this. The point that i was trying to make involves the following: why should state funded medical schools get to practice AA tactics in admissions if the funding they receive is from the government? Everyone pays taxes, and if you wanted to get even more tactical, lower socioeconomic families end up paying much less (after tax refunds, etc) than higher income families do. These schools RUN on the government money, and if they are willing to discriminate based on whether your asian or white then we aren't any better off today than we were before the civil rights movement. Remember, MLK didn't want equality only for african americans but also people of every color, race and ethnicity.

For all the Pro-AA Haters that are URM, please just shut up unless your going to contribute a reasonable argument because your going to benefit regardless of what we say on SDN. And finally, YES, most of us that are anti-AA are doing it for ourselves, not for the benefit of the patient population. Why is that so "evil"? You would think if one works hard, achieves good grades, gets a good MCAT score, shadows, volunteers, etc that they deserve an EQUAL opportunity.

You make this seem like this is some massive injustice. URMs are taking all of the medical school spots. How many URMs are usually in a typically medical school class? Not many. The number decreases as one moves further up the United States (i.e. generally).

What about the so-called URMs that get into Harvard or Yale or UWash or those that contend for MSTP spots. Think about that for a sec. Do they apply with subpar numbers. Hell no. Use some common sense.

 

[deleted329605]

So the argument for AA seems to be - its ok to be racist cause it doesn't affect too many medical school spots. First, i think AA is enacted at the interview level, so there is a bottle neck there. Secondly, if RUM doesn't affect that many spots, why is it even worth havin?

And just for clarification, because pretty much everyone supporting AA seems to be missing this point, i think most people against AA dislike its current state. We aren't calling for its complete eradication, just changing the parameters by which people get that help.

So really, most people who do receive help will be minorities bc if you look at the stats they are the most socioeconomically disadvantaged. But this will also bar some minorities who family backgrounds needs no affirming. O and it would also allow other races to reap the benefits. And finally, i think it is completely ridiculous people can claim advantages like AA without providing any documentation. Srsly, this point really should be changed.

 

[La Presse]

So the argument for AA seems to be - its ok to be racist cause it doesn't affect too many medical school spots. First, i think AA is enacted at the interview level, so there is a bottle neck there. Secondly, if RUM doesn't affect that many spots, why is it even worth havin?

And just for clarification, because pretty much everyone supporting AA seems to be missing this point, i think most people against AA dislike its current state. We aren't calling for its complete eradication, just changing the parameters by which people get that help.

So really, most people who do receive help will be minorities bc if you look at the stats they are the most socioeconomically disadvantaged. But this will also bar some minorities who family backgrounds needs no affirming. O and it would also allow other races to reap the benefits. And finally, i think it is completely ridiculous people can claim advantages like AA without providing any documentation. Srsly, this point really should be changed.

Yeah...and that whole contention of "mild egalitarianism" is not working for you either.

 

[Freesia88]

You have done nothing except be a nuisance on this thread, aside from criticizing anti-AA supporters, you haven't brought any viable argument to the table. So until you do that i suggest you stay out of this. The point that i was trying to make involves the following: why should state funded medical schools get to practice AA tactics in admissions if the funding they receive is from the government? Everyone pays taxes, and if you wanted to get even more tactical, lower socioeconomic families end up paying much less (after tax refunds, etc) than higher income families do. These schools RUN on the government money, and if they are willing to discriminate based on whether your asian or white then we aren't any better off today than we were before the civil rights movement. Remember, MLK didn't want equality only for african americans but also people of every color, race and ethnicity.

For all the Pro-AA Haters that are URM, please just shut up unless your going to contribute a reasonable argument because your going to benefit regardless of what we say on SDN. And finally, YES, most of us that are anti-AA are doing it for ourselves, not for the benefit of the patient population. Why is that so "evil"? You would think if one works hard, achieves good grades, gets a good MCAT score, shadows, volunteers, etc that they deserve an EQUAL opportunity.

😀

Wanna go over and compare your posts to mine and see who has brought more "viable arguments" to the table?

 

[Freesia88]

So the argument for AA seems to be - its ok to be racist cause it doesn't affect too many medical school spots. First, i think AA is enacted at the interview level, so there is a bottle neck there. Secondly, if RUM doesn't affect that many spots, why is it even worth havin?

And just for clarification, because pretty much everyone supporting AA seems to be missing this point, i think most people against AA dislike its current state. We aren't calling for its complete eradication, just changing the parameters by which people get that help.

So really, most people who do receive help will be minorities bc if you look at the stats they are the most socioeconomically disadvantaged. But this will also bar some minorities who family backgrounds needs no affirming. O and it would also allow other races to reap the benefits. And finally, i think it is completely ridiculous people can claim advantages like AA without providing any documentation. Srsly, this point really should be changed.

Now we are talking. The implementation is where the trouble is. Finding ways to make sure that opportunity is created at the most basic levels so that URM students can be as prepared for higher education as their ORM peers is a task I will undertake any day. Do not take away the opportunity because it is not being used by the right people and it is being abused by the wrong people.

 

[scrubs421]

I NEVER get involved in these discussions but you have to call out BS when you see it.

Jews after WWII, NOBODY wanted....the US, England, and even when Jews returned to their previous homes in Europe their possessions were not returned to them.

You realize the reason for the creation of Jewish universities was because Jews could not get academic positions in the US both pre/post-WWII? (because of continued discrimination)

You also realize they were DISCRIMINATED against post-WWII in holding various positions (e.g. Jewish pilots, who even served in the US airforce, could not get jobs with airline companies post WWII).

The support for Israel has been and continues to be a long fought battle. It was NOT something the US just "jumped on board with to lift up the Jewish people".

To say Jews were just "lifted up and accepted with grants by the US which has allowed them to succeed" is beyond ridiculous and a flat out lie.

And did you really just infer (in one of your other posts) that Jews won so many nobel prizes and succeeded because of "hand outs" that helped them post-WWII?

The success of the Jewish people can be and may only attributed to a sense of community, responsibility, and continuos desire to better oneself against all odds. Most of all, to contribute something back to the world.

I have not been following this thread and I do not know your stance on frankly anything but this was so ridiculous it needed to be addressed.

If anyone is interested in the Noble prizes Jews have won previously it may be found here:

http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

In fact, even before WWII, if you knew your history, why COLLEGE admissions is the way it is because of Jewish success (trying to keep Jews out of education) (from Harvard and others):

http://www.theintellectualdevotional.com/blog/2010/01/26/harvards-jewish-problem-in-the-1920s/

You forget that the whole idea of the State of Israel came into existence after WW2. Jews were successful before that, but after the havoc Hitler caused I doubt Jews would have been able to rally and become the force they are now if the US had not supported them every step of the way with massive grants and other resources including assisting them with setting up a country of their own.

And what removed those discriminatory laws and ensured that Asian Americans could enter the schools of their choice and be on par with everybody else? What actions carried out by the government made it possible that schools could not refuse to admit chinese american kids becasue they looked and talked different? What opened the doors of opportunity which you have taken advantage of so well? Sure as **** wasn't your higher intelligence, sir. It's funny how easy you forget that once upon a time, Asian Americans benefitted from AA and its derivatives.

So by your logic a person who suffered deep psychological trauma in the past underwent something unpleasant which should be largely irrelevant to them in the present....interesting.




Let us go with your "ally in a hostile area" analogy for a bit. Are you saying that it is better to leave hundreds of thousands of blacks, hispanics and native americans (hostile area...and with good reason) without care than to have a program which at least tries to provide them with people who would meet those care needs (ally) ?

 

[Barcu]

So the argument for AA seems to be - its ok to be racist cause it doesn't affect too many medical school spots. First, i think AA is enacted at the interview level, so there is a bottle neck there. Secondly, if RUM doesn't affect that many spots, why is it even worth havin?

Is that really the only argument you could pull out?

And just for clarification, because pretty much everyone supporting AA seems to be missing this point, i think most people against AA dislike its current state. We aren't calling for its complete eradication, just changing the parameters by which people get that help.

So really, most people who do receive help will be minorities bc if you look at the stats they are the most socioeconomically disadvantaged. But this will also bar some minorities who family backgrounds needs no affirming. O and it would also allow other races to reap the benefits. And finally, i think it is completely ridiculous people can claim advantages like AA without providing any documentation. Srsly, this point really should be changed.

No. Several people have clearly stated that they feel that URM is racial discrimination and should be abolished.

I'm ok with questions about how much it should be weighted. But again, that's not what the bulk of this conversation has been about. Honestly, since none of us are adcoms, we don't know how much it is being weighted, so we can't comment. Does it sometimes help out people who don't need the help? Sure. But that doesn't mean the whole system needs to be torn down. URM designation is one of many factors. As I said, many URMs also have great ECs and other positive points on their application. In these cases, the URM designation is very beneficial.

 

[deleted329605]

Now we are talking. The implementation is where the trouble is. Finding ways to make sure that opportunity is created at the most basic levels so that URM students can be as prepared for higher education as their ORM peers is a task I will undertake any day. Do not take away the opportunity because it is not being used by the right people and it is being abused by the wrong people.

Definitely creating opportunity for young people in all communities is important. And obviously someone whose parents make 6 figures and another person whose family lives on food stamps can't be expected to have the same extent of opportunities. But to assume this line between different backgrounds is drawn rigidly along race is indeed racist (AA). And racism (AA) leads to contempt which leads to more racism.

Really, debating the merits of AA is not at all what the supreme court will do. They are just going to see if a system like AA is illegal and against the constitution. Unfortunately, I don't think we have many practicing constitutional lawyers on SDN. However, I think in terms of merits, it is close minded to say that there is no necessity to have any form of AA. But I think it is just as extreme to define people receiving those benefits along such a superficial line as skin color. Give benefits based on a set of more specific parameters instead of such a mundane one as skin color. Can we who proclaim ourselves to be modern finally break with that tradition?

 

[Alpha A]

You are also deluding yourself if you think your experience is representative of all URMs.

Sorry for the delayed response here, but I just wanted to say this:

You're absolutely right.

In fact, that was the entire point of my post...or at least the point I was trying to make; I apologize if it came off any other way. What I was attempting to convey is that no one here (or anywhere, for that matter) can speak for all URMs. Even lumping those different races together into one class of person is just plain stupid.

No, my experiences with healthcare and medicine are not representative of all URMs, but neither are the ideas expressed in that survey...so using it as a defense for AA, trying to generalize about the desires of an entire community (which is, in reality, many, many different ones lumped together) is just plain foolish.

Not all black people are poor; not all white people are rich; not all Latinos are illegal immigrants...those are the kind of blanket statements that we, as a modern, educated nation, should be trying to do away with, not support.