Affirmative Action Case and Medical School

[zwander]

What do you guys think about the upcoming Supreme Court case on affirmative action? I know the case revolves undergraduate admissions, but I'm sure any decision would carry into graduation admissions as well. Who knows, maybe those damned diversity essays that suggest writing about race/ethnicity/etc. where I go on to talk about something completely different will be changed.... :/ diversity of IDEAS for the win.

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[Lollygag]

 

[LaughingMan]

Sure I'll bite.

I hope AA is struck down--and this mirrors its way up to med school admissions.
The longer we keep breaking ourselves into these groups--the longer discrimination will remain prevelant.

 

[Barcu]

Sure I'll bite.

I hope AA is struck down--and this mirrors its way up to med school admissions.
The longer we keep breaking ourselves into these groups--the longer discrimination will remain prevelant.

It will probably continue informally if it is struck down. The reason why URMs exist isn't just because of their race. They also tend to have experiences in underserved communities that med schools seek. People seem to think that checking the URM box automatically sends you an interview invite, but that is just not the case.

The problem with SDN is people won't admit that numbers don't mean everything. Why is no one defending all the 4.0/40 applicants who have trouble with interviews? Why don't we yell and scream about how they are being discriminated against? Isn't it about selecting the most qualified people? Or could it be because numbers are only a part of the application? Being a physician has a lot to do with communication, and the race and experiences of the physician matter.

We aren't here to correct society's wrongs by the admissions process. URMs aren't selected because adcoms feel bad about past discrimination. They are trying to select a population of physicians that can best treat the diverse population.

I've been arguing this point long enough, that I don't really feel like having this debate again. So, I'm dropping out of this debate after this one post. If what I am saying does not makes sense to you, please step out of the premed bubble and do some work in underserved areas and try and appreciate the experiences of a diverse patient population.

 

[darkjedi]

Whether or not AA is the most effective system is up in the air, but I don't think there's any question that if it's struck down, it will be potentially devastating for minority representation.

 

[La Presse]

 

[JFK90787]

I think more consideration should be given to socioeconomic status than skin color in school admissions. Or maybe give a more holistic focus to life experiences, IE having parents who are immigrants, being first in a family to attain a bachelor's degree, etc. than strictly relegating diversity to a checkbox for skin color.

I understand that diversity in the student body, including racial diversity, can be a good thing. But I think that minorities from the middle class and up get to reap too man rewards in the current system. A minority who is culturally white adds no more diversity than any other white or Asian person, yet still benefits from URM considerations.

On the other hand, you also need to consider that schools NEED to train physicians who can look like the patient population. This seems like a very tricky and controversial process to navigate, and I do not envy the position of medical school admission committees in having to do this.

 

[Nymphicus]

I think more consideration should be given to socioeconomic status than skin color in school admissions. Or maybe give a more holistic focus to life experiences, IE having parents who are immigrants, being first in a family to attain a bachelor's degree, etc. than strictly relegating diversity to a checkbox for skin color.

I understand that diversity in the student body, including racial diversity, can be a good thing. But I think that minorities from the middle class and up get to reap too man rewards in the current system. A minority who is culturally white adds no more diversity than any other white or Asian person, yet still benefits from URM considerations.

On the other hand, you also need to consider that schools NEED to train physicians who can look like the patient population. This seems like a very tricky process to navigate, and I do not envy the position of medical school admission committees for this process.

Yea, we'd better make sure all those white minorities don't take our spots!

 

[Arbor Vitae]

edit: nvm do no want to go down this rabbit hole

Because you were basically saying you want URMs to act like some stereotype society has of them to actually be considered URM.

 

[Anathema]

I think more consideration should be given to socioeconomic status than skin color in school admissions. Or maybe give a more holistic focus to life experiences, IE having parents who are immigrants, being first in a family to attain a bachelor's degree, etc. than strictly relegating diversity to a checkbox for skin color.

I agree with this part most definitely. I think there are better markers to selectively pick candidates rather than their ethnicity. We're not in the 1950's anymore and we shouldn't set the bar lower or higher for certain people.

 

[PikminOC]

This was an interesting case when a caucasian male did not get into medical school that went to the Supreme Court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_California_v._Bakke

"The trial court found that the special program operated as a racial quota, because minority applicants in that program were rated only against one another, and 16 places in the class were reserved for the clause. Because the Medical School could not satisfy its burden of demonstrating that, absent the special program, Bakke would not have been admitted, the court ordered his admission to the Medical School.[6] Bakke began his studies at the University of California Medical School at Davis in fall of 1978, graduated in 1982, and later served as a resident at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
Since the Supreme Court decided Bakke, California banned the state's use of race as a factor to consider in public schools' admission policies. California's Proposition 209 mandates that "the state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting."[7]

 

[Hemorrage]

AA should be struck down and banned across america. If you want something in life, you have to work for it. Whether your black or your white, you have to study for the MCAT. Now the age old debate saying the richer person can afford a class is stupid because here at SDN we all believe MCAT classes suck. Now if someone says the richer person can afford books, well i say this: how the f*** do you plan to study without books?

Medical school admissions should be about hard work and dedication, whether your white, black, tan, or yellow you have to work hard to maintain a strong GPA and do well on the MCAT. URM's relying on a crutch and the reverse racism of american admissions to get into med school are not only doing themselves an injustice but they are also asking for further animosity from their peers and promoting segregation.

 

[pasiley]

Because you were basically saying you want URMs to act like some stereotype society has of them to actually be considered URM.

You are the perfect example of why the system is broken. You are Hispanic and yet have seen you post some really xenophobic and intolerant statements towards immigrants. Being the same race doesn't equal intention to serve those in need. No offense but you come off as an opportunist and not someone committed to serving low income Hispanics where a large segment of the population is foreign born or the children of immigrants.

 

[RomanTaylor]

Oh boy...this topic comes up at LEAST three times a month.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Lots of angry white people and ORMs in this thread.

 

[SpacemanSpifff]

AA should be struck down and banned across america. If you want something in life, you have to work for it. Whether your black or your white, you have to study for the MCAT. Now the age old debate saying the richer person can afford a class is stupid because here at SDN we all believe MCAT classes suck. Now if someone says the richer person can afford books, well i say this: how the f*** do you plan to study without books?

Medical school admissions should be about hard work and dedication, whether your white, black, tan, or yellow you have to work hard to maintain a strong GPA and do well on the MCAT. URM's relying on a crutch and the reverse racism of american admissions to get into med school are not only doing themselves an injustice but they are also asking for further animosity from their peers and promoting segregation.

My friend, this could be the best $17.86 you ever spend:

http://www.amazon.com/Critical-Race-Theory-Introduction-University/dp/0814721354/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349544066&sr=8-1&keywords=critical+race+theory

 

[Arbor Vitae]

I will refrain from this larger argument but you are the perfect example of why the system is broken. You are Hispanic and yet have seen you post some really xenophobic and intolerant statements towards immigrants. Being the same race doesn't equal intention to serve those in need.

How am I an example of how the system is broken and why do you think I'm Hispanic?

Just because I support recruiting members to serve diverse "US" populations doesn't mean I'm xenophobic and intolerant of immigrants. I just would give preference to the members of the larger, established groups in the US whose communities are essentially neglected by physicians seeking a lifestyle. Being the same race is more likely to live/work in an area where that race dominates.

You are missing Barcu's point up above, which perfectly states the reasoning, yet everyone ignores this.

 

[darkjedi]

AA should be struck down and banned across america. If you want something in life, you have to work for it. Whether your black or your white, you have to study for the MCAT. Now the age old debate saying the richer person can afford a class is stupid because here at SDN we all believe MCAT classes suck. Now if someone says the richer person can afford books, well i say this: how the f*** do you plan to study without books?

Medical school admissions should be about hard work and dedication, whether your white, black, tan, or yellow you have to work hard to maintain a strong GPA and do well on the MCAT. URM's relying on a crutch and the reverse racism of american admissions to get into med school are not only doing themselves an injustice but they are also asking for further animosity from their peers and promoting segregation.

GPA and MCAT is only a tiny portion of what will potentially make a good medical student and future physician. To say that all applicants must be equal in terms of MCAT/GPA in order to not draw the criticism of discrimination is unfair as the application process makes a lot of room for those with lower stats, provided they have strong and rich backgrounds.

AA as a general issue is hard to tackle is there is no clear definition of what is considered discrimination in the decision process. Who's to say that it wasn't a URM's experience in an underserved community that got him selected over a white applicant who's only exposure was in privileged communities? It becomes to difficult to delineate when race is actually taken into account for decisions.

 

[Anathema]

They should just open an all hispanic, all black, all white and all asian med school. They'll be private and people will know that if they're not that race they can't apply. Maybe pass a couple laws here and there.

MEANWHILE, all other schools ban AA and use equal opportunity. Now everyone's happy.

 

[pasiley]

How am I an example of how the system is broken and why do you think I'm Hispanic?

Just because I support recruiting members to serve diverse "US" populations doesn't mean I'm xenophobic and intolerant of immigrants. I just would give preference to the members of the larger, established groups in the US whose communities are essentially neglected by physicians seeking a lifestyle. Being the same race is more likely to live/work in an area where that race dominates.

You are missing Barcu's point up above, which perfectly states the reasoning, yet everyone ignores this.

You claim to be Hispanic and native American. I live in a low income Hispanic neighborhood and many are immigrants. The more established Hispanics who have been here for geneations you speak of that you want to serve aren't anywhere near as underserved. If you want to serve Indian reservations, good for you but you are a ciry guy amd never lived in rural areas. Don't take this wrong but I used to support AA until I came across you and realized how broken the system can be at times.

 

[911 Turbo]

Do under-served areas really care about the skin color of their doctor?

Have there been any studies done on this, with statistics?

 

[911 Turbo]

GPA and MCAT is only a tiny portion of what will potentially make a good medical student and future physician. To say that all applicants must be equal in terms of MCAT/GPA in order to not draw the criticism of discrimination is unfair as the application process makes a lot of room for those with lower stats, provided they have strong and rich backgrounds.

AA as a general issue is hard to tackle is there is no clear definition of what is considered discrimination in the decision process. Who's to say that it wasn't a URM's experience in an underserved community that got him selected over a white applicant who's only exposure was in privileged communities? It becomes to difficult to delineate when race is actually taken into account for decisions.

Aren't GPA and MCAT a good indicator of work ethic and how badly the person wants to become a doctor?

 

[Nuel]

Aren't GPA and MCAT a good indicator of work ethic and how badly the person wants to become a doctor?

GPA is more about work ethic. MCAT is a combination of general intelligence and work ethic. That said, the MCAT is vastly overrated--it's just a very nice weed out test.

 

[darkjedi]

Aren't GPA and MCAT a good indicator of work ethic and how badly the person wants to become a doctor?

Yes, but like I said, only a tiny fraction of what makes someone a good physician. I would argue that passion for medicine is poorly captured by the likes of GPA and MCAT and that these statistics in many ways attract the wrong types of people to medicine. Things like EC's and community work are much better indicators of your passions. Things like compassion are also incredibly difficult to capture in these numbers. Patients would rather deal with a compassionate doctor and someone who they are comfortable with than one who is merely book smart.

 

[911 Turbo]

Yes, but like I said, only a tiny fraction of what makes someone a good physician. I would argue that passion for medicine is poorly captured by the likes of GPA and MCAT and that these statistics in many ways attract the wrong types of people to medicine. Things like EC's and community work are much better indicators of your passions. Things like compassion are also incredibly difficult to capture in these numbers. Patients would rather deal with a compassionate doctor and someone who they are comfortable with than one who is merely book smart.

You are saying people would pick the next (or 3rd, 4th, 5th, 100th) intelligent doctor just because he's the same skin color as you?

 

[Moosepig]

Many are overlooking the fact that many URMs have lower MCATS and GPAs because their parents had to work full time instead of providing their kids the attention and pre-school education needed to fully develop their minds. There are tons of studies on how critical being read to as a child is to scholastic ability.

Okay, so, why didn't those parents have time to read to them? A lot of the time, because they couldn't perform scholastically and so could not pursue cushier jobs. Why couldn't they, the parents, perform scholastically? Because they weren't read to as kids. See the cycle here? Keep tracing it back: It started with America's enslavement of blacks and it's discrimination in providing educational opportunities to all minorities in generations past. Thus we, America, have a responsibility to break the cycle our treachery started.

 

[crzyxballer03]

You are saying people would pick the next (or 3rd, 4th, 5th, 100th) intelligent doctor just because he's the same skin color as you?

I don't think he was talking about race so much as manners/compassion

 

[911 Turbo]

I don't think he was talking about race so much as manners/compassion

Oh...

well what are the reasons why URM communities prefer URM doctors?

 

[Barcu]

I said I wouldn't come back into this, but I just need to say this:

You are saying people would pick the next (or 3rd, 4th, 5th, 100th) intelligent doctor just because he's the same skin color as you?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know it's so hard for many people to believe but IT HAPPENS!!!!!!!!!!!! IT MATTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't care what you personally think about it, it does occur.

Sorry for the caps and exclamation points, but people don't tend to listen and always bring this up....

And besides, how many times do we need to say that GPA/MCAT don't always matter. You can be the 100th most intelligent doctor (or the bottom of your med school class) and still treat 99.9% of the cases you see. Real-life medicine is not House. Yes, sometimes you have to spot the zebra, but in most cases, being the smartest doctor is completely useless.

Being able to communicate with patients is significantly more important. If a patient doesn't trust you and doesn't provide you with the information you need (history is more important than tests by the way) then you can be the smartest person in the world, and you will not be able to treat the patient as well as a physician who is way less intelligent.

There, now I'm done.

 

[Nymphicus]

Do under-served areas really care about the skin color of their doctor?

Have there been any studies done on this, with statistics?

A review study by JHU found patient–physician race and ethnic
concordance were linked with longer patient visits, higher patient satisfaction, and better health care outcomes.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/programs/minority/cooper_raceconcordance_753.pdf

Just look through the primary references for more stats on your questions. It's got a lot of them.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

You claim to be Hispanic and native American. I live in a low income Hispanic neighborhood and many are immigrants. The more established Hispanics who have been here for geneations you speak of that you want to serve aren't anywhere near as underserved. If you want to serve Indian reservations, good for you but you are a ciry guy amd never lived in rural areas. Don't take this wrong but I used to support AA until I came across you and realized how broken the system can be at times.

You actually know nothing about me, so I wouldn't base your core beliefs off of posts on an internet forum. If you actually knew my life story you might think differently. We are all immigrants in this country. Have I met you are something at an interview?

 

[LaughingMan]

It will probably continue informally if it is struck down. The reason why URMs exist isn't just because of their race. They also tend to have experiences in underserved communities that med schools seek. People seem to think that checking the URM box automatically sends you an interview invite, but that is just not the case.

The problem with SDN is people won't admit that numbers don't mean everything. Why is no one defending all the 4.0/40 applicants who have trouble with interviews? Why don't we yell and scream about how they are being discriminated against? Isn't it about selecting the most qualified people? Or could it be because numbers are only a part of the application? Being a physician has a lot to do with communication, and the race and experiences of the physician matter.

We aren't here to correct society's wrongs by the admissions process. URMs aren't selected because adcoms feel bad about past discrimination. They are trying to select a population of physicians that can best treat the diverse population.

I've been arguing this point long enough, that I don't really feel like having this debate again. So, I'm dropping out of this debate after this one post. If what I am saying does not makes sense to you, please step out of the premed bubble and do some work in underserved areas and try and appreciate the experiences of a diverse patient population.

I realize you aren't specifically targetting me--but this post makes many assumptions which lends to it's weakness.

If this situation was reversed in favor of ORMs--there would be serious consequences. The sooner we stop focusing on this race or that race--the sooner we can get behind these stupid classifications.

 

[zwander]

Sometimes I wonder if they still have quotas for the number of interviews they give out to URMs/certain ethnicities. I'm not even sure that would be illegal. But if it was true, might as well be the same thing as reserving a certain number of accepted spots in a class.

Edit: And justifying URM by saying they have more work in underserved communities, why can't they place that information on their application where all the ORM do? Why is there a special checkbox that puts them at the front of the review line?

 

[TheMightySmiter]

I realize you aren't specifically targetting me--but this post makes many assumptions which lends to it's weakness.

If this situation was reversed in favor of ORMs--there would be serious consequences. The sooner we stop focusing on this race or that race--the sooner we can get behind these stupid classifications.

Do people actually believe that repealing AA will eventually make people race-blind?

 

[LaughingMan]

Do people actually believe that repealing AA will eventually make people race-blind?

Negative--this would be the first of many steps.

It could help reduce the fact then when people see African-Americans or Hispanic-Americans in some form of grad/professional school--they instantly think it's because of their race.

 

[zwander]

Do people actually believe that repealing AA will eventually make people race-blind?

Yea, cause the schools will get their asses sued.

And do you actually believe keeping AA will eventually make people race-blind?

 

[MDforMee]

Whether or not AA is the most effective system is up in the air, but I don't think there's any question that if it's struck down, it will be potentially devastating for minority representation.

Minority groups are unequally represented.

Asians are heavily over-represented, blacks and hispanics under-represented.

Whites, middle easterners, etc are pretty much equally represented.

The way to fix this problem isn't with preferential admissions, it's to fix the problem where it starts: high school, parenting, role models, etc.

Why don't we start by making black youth culture uncool?

Or having fewer single parent households?

Making high school more difficult?

I was at the library last night on campus, studying until 11pm (when they close), and the only other people I saw there were asians. Does this mean that they should keep the library doors closed to asians, to give other people a fair shot at getting good grades? That's effectively what affirmative action would do. It's segregation phrased and enacted in a roundabout fashion.

 

[Barcu]

I realize you aren't specifically targetting me--but this post makes many assumptions which lends to it's weakness.

If this situation was reversed in favor of ORMs--there would be serious consequences. The sooner we stop focusing on this race or that race--the sooner we can get behind these stupid classifications.

I'll reiterate, URM classification is not exclusively for the benefit of applicants. It is for PATIENTS.

Is keeping the URM designation one (of the many) factors perpetuating racial discrimination? You could make that argument. However, that's not really the point. Medical school admissions is not trying to make large social changes in how we view race. It is attempting to select the best group of applicants who can fulfill the needs of the patient population, which includes many people who are much more comfortable with doctors of their own race.

Race is around for the long haul. Look at pretty much every study about race, and it will show there is no person who can block out race. We make judgements and react to it about it without even realizing it. Maybe it's better to accept that and work on ways to improve racial integration (like more URM physicians) than try and eliminate classifications (which is impossible).

 

[Arbor Vitae]

I'll reiterate, URM classification is not exclusively for the benefit of applicants. It is for PATIENTS.

Is keeping the URM designation one (of the many) factors perpetuating racial discrimination? You could make that argument. However, that's not really the point. Medical school admissions is not trying to make large social changes in how we view race. It is attempting to select the best group of applicants who can fulfill the needs of the patient population, which includes many people who are much more comfortable with doctors of their own race.

Race is around for the long haul. Look at pretty much every study about race, and it will show there is no person who can block out race. We make judgements and react to it about it without even realizing it. Maybe it's better to accept that and work on ways to improve racial integration (like more URM physicians) than try and eliminate classifications (which is impossible).

People forget only mere decades ago White physicians were still testing the effects of untreated syphilis on African-Americans even though penicillin was widely available. There is a widespread mistrust of physicians of different races, and there are incidents similar to the syphilis studies all over the world which re-enforces this mistrust.

 

[SpacemanSpifff]

Negative--this would be the first of many steps.

It could help reduce the fact then when people see African-Americans or Hispanic-Americans in some form of grad/professional school--they instantly think it's because of their race.

It may be hard to believe, but some don't actually make that jump in their minds.

Also, becoming "race-blind" would not be a positive thing in my mind.

 

[typicalindian]

I could care less about AA, I don't see statistics saying that doctors who get into medical school based on AA status being worse physicians than those who aren't AA, and as long as patients aren't receiving a lower quality of care, does it really matter? However, something I've always wondered is, what if the groups who are considered URM currently were switched with ORM's? Meaning African Americans and Hispanics were put in the position of Asians, and Asians put in the URM position. I think if this happened, many civil rights and activist groups from the African American and Hispanic communities would argue about how racist and unfair that is. So I don't think anyone should get upset with people who think that AA is unfair, because in their eyes all they see is "why are they held to lower standards than I am?" which is a pretty good reason to be upset.

 

[LaughingMan]

I'll reiterate, URM classification is not exclusively for the benefit of applicants. It is for PATIENTS.

Is keeping the URM designation one (of the many) factors perpetuating racial discrimination? You could make that argument. However, that's not really the point. Medical school admissions is not trying to make large social changes in how we view race. It is attempting to select the best group of applicants who can fulfill the needs of the patient population, which includes many people who are much more comfortable with doctors of their own race.

Race is around for the long haul. Look at pretty much every study about race, and it will show there is no person who can block out race. We make judgements and react to it about it without even realizing it. Maybe it's better to accept that and work on ways to improve racial integration (like more URM physicians) than try and eliminate classifications (which is impossible).

The hispanic population that my businesses serve have a strong dislike of African Americans. Adding to that--they STROOOOOOONGLY prefer to do business with other hispanics (most of them are blue collar workers from Mexico). May I discriminate against other groups and selectively hire hispanics for employment to better ease my customers concern? Of course not---I would be deemed a racist and hanged by the end of the week. This also goes the other way, the African Americans that our other businesses serve don't like the hispanics.

I def agree with you that it's for the benefit of the patient population, but they are still discriminating against ORMs at the end of the day. "Hey I'm just as comitted to serving poor URM communities as anyone else." One group is preferably selected because of certain assumptions for that race (they will go back to serve their community and so on). That is my main issue. You are not aware of my political views, but no organization supported by tax dollars should engage in this preferential treatment. If Loma Linda wants to do that--sure A-OK--but not UCLA.

It may be hard to believe, but some don't actually make that jump in their minds.

Also, becoming "race-blind" would not be a positive thing in my mind.

Hmm--you are right there--if you are of that opinion, then AA definitely is a great idea. Also, you are correct, I am aware not all feel this way.


Again friends, I am not saying any of you are wrong or right--these are just my opinions. I in no way shape or form mean offense to any group.

 

[RomanTaylor]

Right.

These discussions, started over and over again ad nauseum are unproductive because it is just pitting those with an embedded advantage against those that do not have it.

With such a lofty, often unobtainable goal where many will strive and few will achieve, those WITHOUT that embedded advantage will ALWAYS cry foul, no matter the reasoning and the perceived good intent.

 

[MiracleforMD]

history is more important than tests by the way

I'm sorry, wut.

 

[zwander]

People forget only mere decades ago White physicians were still testing the effects of untreated syphilis on African-Americans even though penicillin was widely available. There is a widespread mistrust of physicians of different races, and there are incidents similar to the syphilis studies all over the world which re-enforces this mistrust.

Wow did this kid just defend AA by bringing up Tuskegee. And he has an interview at UCLA? LOL What the hell I am doing wrong this cycle...

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Wow did this kid just defend AA by bringing up Tuskegee. And he has an interview at UCLA? LOL What the hell I am doing wrong this cycle...

U mirin?

I'm just making a point that AA in regard to med school admissions is not solely about socioeconomic class, but about patients trusting physicians from a similar demographic as them, which is pretty important for communication and a productive relationship in primary care

 

[collegestud2013]

AA should be struck down and banned across america. If you want something in life, you have to work for it. Whether your black or your white, you have to study for the MCAT. Now the age old debate saying the richer person can afford a class is stupid because here at SDN we all believe MCAT classes suck. Now if someone says the richer person can afford books, well i say this: how the f*** do you plan to study without books?

Medical school admissions should be about hard work and dedication, whether your white, black, tan, or yellow you have to work hard to maintain a strong GPA and do well on the MCAT. URM's relying on a crutch and the reverse racism of american admissions to get into med school are not only doing themselves an injustice but they are also asking for further animosity from their peers and promoting segregation.

Couldn't agree more. AA is just a fancy name for reverse discrimination, and doesn't even come close to achieving any of the goals that it intends. In many cases it ends up benefiting upper-middle class Blacks or Hispanics who never went through any adverse life experiences or have any intention of working with undeserved populations, and certainly don't need any AA boost to be adequately represented, while lower income Asians and Whites are essentially screwed over if they have less-than-stellar stats.

While AA does promote diversity, the diversity comes at a cost, and that cost is lowered academic or EC standards, that will certainly also lower the academic ability of the the student body in a med school. Studies have shown that these URMs with below-average stats who get into med school have been shown to struggle more and drop out at higher rates than average, so the question is if it's worth it to comprise that for more diversity? I don't think it is. At the end of the day, your stats and ECs will make you a better doctor, not the color of your skin.

 

[typicalindian]

I'm just making a point that AA in regard to med school admissions is not solely about socioeconomic class, but about patients trusting physicians from a similar demographic as them, which is pretty important for communication and a productive relationship in primary care

But is it really that simple? Wouldn't people from similar socioeconomic statuses be able to relate to one another more easily? For example, a white doctor who grew up in a poor inner city would probably relate to patients in those kinds of areas better than an African American doctor who grew up in rich, high-class suburbia.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Couldn't agree more. AA is just a fancy name for reverse discrimination, and doesn't even come close to achieving any of the goals that it intends. In many cases it ends up benefiting upper-middle class Blacks or Hispanics who never went through any adverse life experiences or have any intention of working with undeserved populations, and certainly don't need any AA boost to be adequately represented, while lower income Asians and Whites are essentially screwed over if they have less-than-stellar stats.

While AA does promote diversity, the diversity comes at a cost, and that cost is lowered academic or EC standards, that will certainly also lower the academic ability of the the student body in a med school. Studies have shown that these URMs with below-average stats who get into med school have been shown to struggle more and drop out at higher rates than average, so the question is if it's worth it to comprise that for more diversity? I don't think it is. At the end of the day, your stats and ECs will make you a better doctor, not the color of your skin.

Not every URM has below average stats. And they'd only displace someone of another race with below-average stats. Why would they perform any better?

 

[RomanTaylor]

Couldn't agree more. AA is just a fancy name for reverse discrimination, and doesn't even come close to achieving any of the goals that it intends. In many cases it ends up benefiting upper-middle class Blacks or Hispanics who never went through any adverse life experiences or have any intention of working with undeserved populations, and certainly don't need any AA boost to be adequately represented, while lower income Asians and Whites are essentially screwed over if they have less-than-stellar stats.

While AA does promote diversity, the diversity comes at a cost, and that cost is lowered academic or EC standards, that will certainly also lower the academic ability of the the student body in a med school. Studies have shown that these URMs with below-average stats who get into med school have been shown to struggle more and drop out at higher rates than average, so the question is if it's worth it to comprise that for more diversity? I don't think it is. At the end of the day, your stats and ECs will make you a better doctor, not the color of your skin.

I am sure you didn't mean to insinuate that minorities en masse decrease academic quality of the populace as a whole, because that would be mildly insulting.

And I am not wholly convinced that URMs make worse doctors than whites or Asians. Again, that is the insinuation here.

As I said before, it is just an advantage that you will not enjoy, and getting into medical school is hard, therefore you are naturally crying foul and becoming militant about it. But I am willing to bet the farm that you wouldn't have such a problem with it if you were on the receiving end of it.


Addendum: And don't worry your pretty little heads, there are still PLENTY of Whites and Asians that matriculate into medical school on a yearly basis. I do not forsee a shortage of either race in the future.