Affirmative Action in medical schools?

Started by UFMed
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UFMed

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Is there an affirmative action policy in selecting candidates for medical school? In other words, do ADCOMS give preference based on race or ethnicity?
I've been trying to reach a consensus on this, but I haven't been able to find a solid answer. I figured that they would give preference to those who mark (and explain) themselves as under represented in medicine (which I would attribute to socioeconomic status, not just simply race). I am not even 100% sure if all (or some) schools even give preference for UR in medicine.

So, if this is the case, if you happen to be a minority, are you automatically given preference, or is it dependent on whether you feel you are under represented? 😕
 
Is there an affirmative action policy in selecting candidates for medical school? In other words, do ADCOMS give preference based on race or ethnicity?
I've been trying to reach a consensus on this, but I haven't been able to find a solid answer. I figured that they would give preference to those who mark (and explain) themselves as under represented in medicine (which I would attribute to socioeconomic status, not just simply race). I am not even 100% sure if all (or some) schools even give preference for UR in medicine.

So, if this is the case, if you happen to be a minority, are you automatically given preference, or is it dependent on whether you feel you are under represented? 😕
like most things in this process, it depends on the school. Some schools have no affirmative action policy and give no preference. I know Tufts does this, and I've been informed of a few other schools, but i don't remember which because i didn't apply to them. Many do have affirmative action policies. You just mark off on your amcas your race and ethnicity, and they decide what to do with that information. at some schools it makes a big difference, others medium, and some none at all. This type of post, however, often starts a flame war, just to warn you.
 
Ok, so it depends on the school. Is there a centralized website or anything for this sort of stuff?

For all future posters- I am not trying to start any flame war or debate. I am not passing judgement on the policy or whether its right, wrong, needed, or not, etc. I simply would like to find an answer to this.
 
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Medical schools overtly strive to create a diverse class. So yes, URM's are accepted in a way that might be considered "affirmative action"--I've personally seen friends of mine who were URMs get quite a bit more attention than other friends who had much higher stats, similar EC's, etc. And no, it doesn't necessarily reflect anything economically, though I think they strive for diversity there too, falling under that "disadvantaged" label on AMCAS.

I agree there's no sense in discussing whether it's right or wrong, because it is the way it is. And I also know plenty of URMs with damn good stats. But the answer to your question is yes, with some schools placing more emphasis on the importance of diversity than others.
 
but then there is again with the problem of being out of state for many of those schools so bummer again
 
For "other", there is usually a chance to explain this somewhere on your application. Also socioeconomic diversity only comes into play if you check the "Disadvantaged" box on your AMCAS. There are many different criteria for "disadvantaged" status (educational, economical, etc..). I believe there is a link on the AMCAS to explain it.
 
Is there affirmative action in medical school admission? One has to look to further than the previous poster's MDapp to find the answer.
We all know the avg MCAT for matriculants, but I've always wondered what the real avg is for non-minority applicants...
Again, no flame war intended.
 
I have also wondered what the average URM acceptance stats are for each school comparatively, and Im more curious to see the overall acceptance rate of all URM's in a cycle (I'm led to believe its well over the 50% in non-URM applicants). This is just out of curiosity, I dont intend to step on any toes.



On another note, The University of Michigan has gotten itself into some serious legal trouble over the past few years, leading up to the banning of affirmative action in the state of Michigan, with all colleges and universities affected. This was voted on by the people of Michigan into affect this spring. So both UofM and MSU do not engage in racial or gender profiling, but they do acknowledge socio-economically challenged applicants.
 
Im more curious to see the overall acceptance rate of all URM's in a cycle (I'm led to believe its well over the 50% in non-URM applicants). This is just out of curiosity, I dont intend to step on any toes.

I dont remember where i saw this information presented, i'm looking for it right now so that i can back this up with numbers, but that is defiitely false information. URMs generally have an equal if not slightly lower acceptance rate, from the numbers i've seen.
 
It is about half, I retract that part of my previous statement
it was actually less than half-- for women it was about a third in some races. depending on the year, acceptance rates are equal to or lower than whites. This obviously says nothing about the stats of those applicants or acceptees, but answers that one question posed.
 
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Is there affirmative action in medical school admission? One has to look to further than the previous poster's MDapp to find the answer.
We all know the avg MCAT for matriculants, but I've always wondered what the real avg is for non-minority applicants...
Again, no flame war intended.

Really no flame war intended, you basically just insinuated that MsJLewis only benefited because of her race. I mean not that she might have had extenuating circumstances or be socially disadvantaged or anything else. Why do you assume she didn't have more to bring to the table.

Believe what you will but unless you know everything don't say things like that!

Oops was that a flame war, my bad🙄
 
"Underrepresented" is a loaded term used to avoid winding up in front of the Supreme Court. Really the only way to guarantee diversity is to enforce an illegal quota.

The MSAR notes that the Texas schools use ethnicity as a factor in their admissions process. I've been told that it such was handed down from the state gubment.

Kaplan used to publish a book about medical school admissions...

http://www.amazon.com/Newseek-Medic...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197048030&sr=8-1

In there it said something to the effect of "while admissions statistics are lower for URM's, schools benefit from the diversity that they have to offer."

Also, if you look at the MSAR, you can see where some schools have demographics that approximate the national population quite closely. It's thus reasonable to assume that they have different waitlists for different people.

It's really a strange ethical dilemma. On the one hand, a person of a given race may prefer to see a like doctor. On the other, everyone deserves to have the best doctor available.

It is indeed a strange and very touchy issue. This unfortunately is one of the debates that has become so polarized. Many people argue that AA is discrimination against non URMs, and therefore "underrepresented" is just a way to try and avoid the non-discrimination policies of the schools, and therefore an illegal quota as you said. But proponents of AA argue that diversity itself is more important to the educational atmosphere of the school than high test scores etc alone. And they argue that, as the schools are ultimately trying to and have every right to admit students who are best going to contribute to their educational atmosphere, using this logic there is nothing illegal nor wrong about it.

To answer the OP's original question, yes, most medical schools do take diversity very seriously in their admissons, and this leads to what many call AA. Data posted on previous threads do show that the average "stats" for URM students are statistically lower than non-urm students (not acceptance rate, but admission stats). But this is just an average, and in no way shape or form does this make them inferior doctors. I doubt you couldn't find any information about this anywhere on SDN, countless previous threads have debated the effectiveness of AA. Please do a search.

Honestly, regardless of if you are a URM or not, there is really nothing you can do about it either way, just work as hard as you can at your goals.
 
Really no flame war intended, you basically just insinuated that MsJLewis only benefited because of her race. I mean not that she might have had extenuating circumstances or be socially disadvantaged or anything else. Why do you assume she didn't have more to bring to the table.

Believe what you will but unless you know everything don't say things like that!

Oops was that a flame war, my bad🙄

Aww.. thanks Trinitee! I usually just let stuff slide. So used to it by now. Geeze, you make some bad mistakes freshman and sophomore year and suddenly you're unfit to be a physician... harsh crowd.
 
It is indeed a strange and very touchy issue. This unfortunately is one of the debates that has become so polarized. Many people argue that AA is discrimination against non URMs, and therefore "underrepresented" is just a way to try and avoid the non-discrimination policies of the schools, and therefore an illegal quota as you said. But proponents of AA argue that diversity itself is more important to the educational atmosphere of the school than high test scores etc alone. And they argue that, as the schools are ultimately trying to and have every right to admit students who are best going to contribute to their educational atmosphere, using this logic there is nothing illegal nor wrong about it.

To answer the OP's original question, yes, most medical schools do take diversity very seriously in their admissons, and this leads to what many call AA. Data posted on previous threads do show that the average "stats" for URM students are statistically lower than non-urm students (not acceptance rate, but admission stats). But this is just an average, and in no way shape or form does this make them inferior doctors. I doubt you couldn't find any information about this anywhere on SDN, countless previous threads have debated the effectiveness of AA. Please do a search.

Honestly, regardless of if you are a URM or not, there is really nothing you can do about it either way, just work as hard as you can at your goals.

I think that about covers it. I think the discussion can end there.
 
On another note, The University of Michigan has gotten itself into some serious legal trouble over the past few years, leading up to the banning of affirmative action in the state of Michigan, with all colleges and universities affected. This was voted on by the people of Michigan into affect this spring. So both UofM and MSU do not engage in racial or gender profiling, but they do acknowledge socio-economically challenged applicants.
California is the same. Thanks to Ward Connerly and Prop 209, the UC's have some of the lowest URM acceptance and matriculation stats in the country.

But my question is, what makes one applicant more qualified than another? Is it purely numbers as so many SDNers like to believe? Is it EC's? LORs? Personal struggles and triumphs? who knows.

I find it a bit annoying when SDNers try to "size up" an applicant and determine whether or not they are qualified. I trust Adcoms a great deal more than spiteful and bitter SDNers who make judgments based solely off of an MDapps profile.
 
Really no flame war intended, you basically just insinuated that MsJLewis only benefited because of her race.

I did not insinuate she benefited ONLY because of her race. Did she benefit because of her race in regards to medical school admissions? Undoubtedly. Did she suffer from the subtle consequences of being a racial minority in this country in ways that act to keep minorities down? Very likely. AA is meant to correct for those consequences. Does it overcorrect? That's an entirely different debate. On the record (and please refrain from branching off on this), I do not believe an applicant boils down to a set of numbers. Because I believe the quality of care we give our patients is directly related to our ability to relate to them, I am personally very much in favor of AA.
 
Aww.. thanks Trinitee! I usually just let stuff slide. So used to it by now. Geeze, you make some bad mistakes freshman and sophomore year and suddenly you're unfit to be a physician... harsh crowd.

Just to clear things up- I think you will make a fantastic physician. Seriously.
 
Just to clear things up- I think you will make a fantastic physician. Seriously.

Lol.. no harm no foul!

You also forgot to mention that I benefit from being RIDICULOUSLY HOT! Just look at my picture/avatar!! I'm definitely sure some adcoms were coming on to me at some of my interviews..


(Disclaimer: Actually the photo in no way reflects (besides skin tone) the poster of this message and is in fact Eva from America's Next Top Model.... who probably is only a model because of affirmative action.)
 
I'm not even gonna give my input because it will just annoy me.

But +1 for the against-affirmative action crowd 👍
 
Lol.. no harm no foul!


(Disclaimer: Actually the photo in no way reflects (besides skin tone) the poster of this message and is in fact Eva from America's Next Top Model.... who probably is only a model because of affirmative action.)

The top 2 candidates were both black, and tyra is black.. i doubt affirmative action played a role... and plus there are plenty of black models..
 
haha no dont give up humor! it's a good thing

But i think affirmative action is always gonna be controversial. For me I have various reasons for being against (because I think it's truly unfair)...i.e. a minority girl I know getting into UCLA med with i believe lower than a 3.1 gpa cumulative and a 27 MCAT who was not disadvantaged (personally knew her). She got interviews over people I knew with >3.6 and 31+ on MCAT and of course there are numerous factors but to have an interview sent or not all they see is the paperwork...and to be honest her statement I felt was weaker prior to them sending out applications. Then again UCLA sure does know how to pick them (sarcasm)

Also, I really started being ANTI-affirmative action when a friend of mine who was extremely poor (caucasian) needed financial aid and went through a program for people from disadvantaged areas only to find out they asked if he was part african-american, hispanic, or native american. When he replied no, I'm not they said they were sorry and couldn't do anything because he did not qualify. Bull*#&!
 
lol...you were waiting for someone to provoke you and then you just couldn't help yourself could you?
 
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I got accepted to my school in part because there was a shortage of really really really ridiculously good-looking students, and they felt that I filled that gap. I help people feel good about themselves.
 
haha no dont give up humor! it's a good thing

But i think affirmative action is always gonna be controversial. For me I have various reasons for being against (because I think it's truly unfair)...i.e. a minority girl I know getting into UCLA med with i believe lower than a 3.1 gpa cumulative and a 27 MCAT who was not disadvantaged (personally knew her). She got interviews over people I knew with >3.6 and 31+ on MCAT and of course there are numerous factors but to have an interview sent or not all they see is the paperwork...and to be honest her statement I felt was weaker prior to them sending out applications. Then again UCLA sure does know how to pick them (sarcasm)

Also, I really started being ANTI-affirmative action when a friend of mine who was extremely poor (caucasian) needed financial aid and went through a program for people from disadvantaged areas only to find out they asked if he was part african-american, hispanic, or native american. When he replied no, I'm not they said they were sorry and couldn't do anything because he did not qualify. Bull*#&!
That's unfortunate for your poor friend. Really it is.

But UCLA is notorious for not admitting minorities. So maybe your minority friend went through Drew or Haider, or had some compelling story that you never knew about. But trust me, over the last 5 years, I've protested 11 times at UCLA for having astonishingly low minority admission rates and not accurately reflecting the demographics of the city of Los Angeles.
 
That's unfortunate for your poor friend. Really it is.

But UCLA is notorious for not admitting minorities. So maybe your minority friend went through Drew or Haider, or had some compelling story that you never knew about. But trust me, over the last 5 years, I've protested 11 times at UCLA for having astonishingly low minority admission rates and not accurately reflecting the demographics of the city of Los Angeles.

Why do you feel it should reflect demographics? If its truly a holistic process, then arguing that it should reflect demographics doesn't make any sense.

That statement equates to X amount of each race should get in, regardless of all other factors.
 
That's unfortunate for your poor friend. Really it is.

But UCLA is notorious for not admitting minorities. So maybe your minority friend went through Drew or Haider, or had some compelling story that you never knew about. But trust me, over the last 5 years, I've protested 11 times at UCLA for having astonishingly low minority admission rates and not accurately reflecting the demographics of the city of Los Angeles.

Very true. In fact during my UCLA interview I met with another black student there and she said that UCLA med's percentage dropped from 7% (in mid 90's) to 1%. She informed me that she was one of THREE students admitted to the David Geffen School of Medicine. All other URMs are accepted through the Drew/UCLA program. Interesting..
 
That's unfortunate for your poor friend. Really it is.

But UCLA is notorious for not admitting minorities. So maybe your minority friend went through Drew or Haider, or had some compelling story that you never knew about. But trust me, over the last 5 years, I've protested 11 times at UCLA for having astonishingly low minority admission rates and not accurately reflecting the demographics of the city of Los Angeles.

Yeah I was born and raised in LA so I love the diversity and definitely have no problems with it 🙂. But it seems that it happens pretty often and that's why it kind of bothers me because it seems pretty unfair.

And my minority friend had no compelling story...she asked my opinion on her PS (so i saw that) and also she lives at the end of my street (normal neighborhood, not poor by any means but not rich either)


And it bothers me more for situations regarding finances. How is one to control whether he is a minority or majority race? He/she cant...but if you're poor, you're poor. And i think it's great that we have all kinds of grants and programs but when they're one sided alot of times, I'm not a big fan. Especially when my tax dollars fund it 🙁
 
Why do you feel it should reflect demographics? If its truly a holistic process, then arguing that it should reflect demographics doesn't make any sense.
1. I'm talking about their undergrad.
2. It is a public institution established to fill the educational needs of the city of Los Angeles. This purpose is written in The Master Plan, which determines the educational roles of the public universities in California. (The UC system and the CSU system). Over the years, UCLA has grown to be more of a private school than a public instution, and USC has indirectly and informally became the university that serves Los Angeles.
 
1. I'm talking about their undergrad.
2. It is a public institution established to fill the educational needs of the city of Los Angeles. This purpose is written in The Master Plan, which determines the educational roles of the public universities in California. (The UC system and the CSU system). Over the years, UCLA has grown to be more of a private school than a public instution, and USC has indirectly and informally became the university that serves Los Angeles.

If this is true (and i believe you), and you're reffering to undergrad, i withdraw my complaint. :laugh:
 
I dont know...I am from LA, excelled in my academics and sports alike, had leadership roles in tons of clubs. I was rejected from UCLA undergrad with a 4.33 gpa + all this versus a guy who got an 810/2400 on the new SAT and barely passed our HS. Granted he played football and was 300 pounds, but I for some reason believe that colleges should put academics first, and sports second. 🙄 Oh and he's a minority (100%) so that may or may not have helped who knows? Because there's always this thought of an affirmative action cloud affecting admissions, I'd prefer if it was not there so I could give proper credit when it is deserved. Otherwise, who's to say if it was all the applicant's hard work, or some, or mostly affirmative action helping, or a combination. When I apply, it'll be my stats and hard work on paper - not my race (well it will be there but immediately ignored because I am majority).

And btw I do not mean to offend anyone at all and if I did I am sorry and my goal was to simply state that there are some huge flaws with affirmative action 🙂
 
I dont know...I am from LA, excelled in my academics and sports alike, had leadership roles in tons of clubs. I was rejected from UCLA undergrad with a 4.33 gpa + all this versus a guy who got an 810/2400 on the new SAT and barely passed our HS. Granted he played football and was 300 pounds, but I for some reason believe that colleges should put academics first, and sports second. 🙄 Oh and he's a minority (100%) so that may or may not have helped who knows? Because there's always this thought of an affirmative action cloud affecting admissions, I'd prefer if it was not there so I could give proper credit when it is deserved. Otherwise, who's to say if it was all the applicant's hard work, or some, or mostly affirmative action helping, or a combination. When I apply, it'll be my stats and hard work on paper - not my race (well it will be there but immediately ignored because I am majority).

And btw I do not mean to offend anyone at all and if I did I am sorry and my goal was to simply state that there are some huge flaws with affirmative action 🙂
Guess what? I was rejected from UCLA with a 4.79 and a 1470. And I was valedictorian. Where was my affirmative action? That's the reason for the protests at UCLA. There were rejecting statistically qualified minorities for seemingly no reason.
 
Thanks for the input guys! I really don't want this to become a debate or anything. My questions were definitely answered. Thanks again!

Just to to come clean, the only reason I asked is because some racist a-hole told me indirectly that the only reason I got into medical school is because of affirmative action😡 (yes, i'm a minority) He didn't know anything about my stats or application. He just assumed medical schools give acceptances away without considering a person's merit.
So I was just taken aback because I didn't want him to be right... There's nothing I can do, except maybe tell that guy to go **** himself. Thanks though! 🙂
 
Thanks for the input guys! I really don't want this to become a debate or anything. My questions were definitely answered. Thanks again!

Just to to come clean, the only reason I asked is because some racist a-hole told me indirectly that the only reason I got into medical school is because of affirmative action😡 (i'm a minority).
So I was just taken aback because I didn't want him to be right... There's nothing I can do, except maybe tell that guy to go **** himself. Thanks though! 🙂

There is one other thing you can do.. be the excellent physician you were born to be. I find that the sweetest revenge is success.
 
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There is one other thing you can do.. be the excellent physician you were born to be. I find that the sweetest revenge is success.

You're so right. I was just so surprised... I was speechless when he said it. Ah well, life goes on. Thanks for the advice! 🙂
 
Thanks for the input guys! I really don't want this to become a debate or anything. My questions were definitely answered. Thanks again!

Just to to come clean, the only reason I asked is because some racist a-hole told me indirectly that the only reason I got into medical school is because of affirmative action😡 (yes, i'm a minority) He didn't know anything about my stats or application. He just assumed medical schools give acceptances away without considering a person's merit.
So I was just taken aback because I didn't want him to be right... There's nothing I can do, except maybe tell that guy to go **** himself. Thanks though! 🙂
This happens to me almost every day. It also happened when i got into princeton as an undergrad-- i had a 5.12 weighted gpa (14AP courses), 1500 SAT, was already a practicing emt and volunteered with my ambulance for years, built robots for national competitions, etc etc, and i was told "well they had to fill their quota" by schoolmates. People, especially those who wish to be in your position with an acceptance, will look for any reason to put you down because misery loves company. Just remember that you know why you are deserving, and the adcom seems to know, and that's all that really matters. Clearly you rock to have an acceptance this early, so just take that confidence boost and never look back.
 
I have also wondered what the average URM acceptance stats are for each school comparatively, and Im more curious to see the overall acceptance rate of all URM's in a cycle (I'm led to believe its well over the 50% in non-URM applicants). This is just out of curiosity, I dont intend to step on any toes.



On another note, The University of Michigan has gotten itself into some serious legal trouble over the past few years, leading up to the banning of affirmative action in the state of Michigan, with all colleges and universities affected. This was voted on by the people of Michigan into affect this spring. So both UofM and MSU do not engage in racial or gender profiling, but they do acknowledge socio-economically challenged applicants.
That's not the way they told it on interview day...



I'll give my thoughts on the subject. As a preface, I'm farther to the left than any of you, and my problems with affirmative action don't have anything to do w/ bullsh*t about "reverse discrimination".

In my mind, there are three commonly used justifications for AA: to give disadvantaged applicants an even playing field; to provide for "diversity" in the school; and to increase the number of urm physicians. All three have merit in the ideal sense, but only the third is applicable to medical school (because we really do need more minority doctors in this country). However, this rationale doesn't hold up under legal challenge.

Now for the first rationale, that AA is necessary to help out disadvantaged applicants. Of course truly disadvantaged applicants should be given a leg up, but what I can't get past is this thought that keeps spinning around in my head: How can a black female who went to an Ivy league university be considered "disadvantaged"? Why should a rich minority be given preferential admission over a poor white? It doesn't make any sense to me. But, under a race-based admissions policy, the child of a black executive would receive admission over the child of a poor coal miner, all else being equal.

Moreover, AA doesn't really serve to help out the most disadvantaged people: poor minorities, who bear the burden of 400 years of overt racism and discrimination (affluent minorities, on the other hand, are able to escape this. and don't even try to say that just cause you were called the n-word once by some hillbilly that you've been a victim). In fact, a long study of the UC system showed that enrollment rates of poor minorities didn't increase after AA was implemented and that the only group helped was that of affluent minorities, who were able to enroll in more prestigious schools than they otherwise would have been, based on test scores, etc.

Finally, we come to "diversity". My question is: is diversity really a laudable goal for an admissions office that can benefit the education of the school's students? For undergraduate colleges, I believe the answer is yes--because learning from your classmates is an essential part of a well-rounded education. But medical school is professional school and I don't believe that this is applicable, because med students don't spend their time learning from each other, rather they learn science from their classes and textbooks and clinical medicine from attending physicians and residents, as well as patients.

That's why I'm against affirmative action, as it is carried out. I'd be totally in favor of admission based solely on socio-economic status. What we really need is a complete overhaul of society and, failing that, vastly increased investment in early education.