Affirmative Action in medical schools?

[FutureAdcom]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Definitely agree--of my acceptances so far, almost everyone tells me to pick Tufts, but i was sort of uncomfortable there. On my interview day, there were 16 white applicants, one asian, and me. I walked through the library for about half an hour, and saw a fairly similar mix. I don't really think i'd be comfortable living like that for four years. I think this was even more enhanced by the fact that i was at howard a few days before, but i would definitely be much more comfortable at howard, which makes the decision much harder.

Maybe you should of went to the library to compare their selection of research materials to the other schools you have visited instead of worrying about what ethnicity the person was reading them. And if I said "There were 16 black applicants and one Hispanic...I don't really think I would be comfortable living like that for four years". I'd be construed as a racist. If white people bother you so much, don't apply to those schools.

 

[aaj117]

Maybe you should of went to the library to compare their selection of research materials to the other schools you have visited instead of worrying about what ethnicity the person was reading them. And if I said "There were 16 black applicants and one Hispanic...I don't really think I would be comfortable living like that for four years". I'd be construed as a racist. If white people bother you so much, don't apply to those schools.

white people don't bother me-- i'm half white-- but i would like a little diversity in my class, and i was saying that i didn't see that at tufts. I didn't know that going there, because i'd never been there before. That's what the interview is for; to learn more about the school. I learned that it is a great school with lots of opportunities, but i may be a little bit uncomfortable there because the class wasn't as diverse as i'd like it to be. If you said that there were sixteen black people and you were the only white person, i could 100% see how that may make you uncomfortable and would not think anything negative about that, actually.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

white people don't bother me-- i'm half white-- but i would like a little diversity in my class, and i was saying that i didn't see that at tufts. I didn't know that going there, because i'd never been there before. That's what the interview is for; to learn more about the school. I learned that it is a great school with lots of opportunities, but i may be a little bit uncomfortable there because the class wasn't as diverse as i'd like it to be. If you said that there were sixteen black people and you were the only white person, i could 100% see how that may make you uncomfortable and would not think anything negative about that, actually.

I think that makes you an exception.

 

[aaj117]

I think that makes you an exception.

Really>? I don't see how someone wouldn't see that. Just like me and wutwinb and UFmed all said, we're not comfortable being the ONLY minority in a class. Why would someone be comfortable being the ONLY white person? It's the exact same situation. When people say they're looking for diversity in a school, i like to be optimistic and think that they really mean diversity; not just a whole bunch of black people, or a whole bunch of latinos, etc. I know i'm a little nieve sometimes, but i don't see how that wouldn't make sense to the majority of people?

 

[wutwinb]

I think that makes you an exception.

a white person being uncomfortable in a room entirely full of black people? Thinking that is "negative" isn't a word I would use either. It's not like they are uncomfortable because they don't like black people, it's just because they are not used to that cultural environment (and not used to being a minority).

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

a white person being uncomfortable in a room entirely full of black people? Thinking that is "negative" isn't a word I would use either. It's not like they are uncomfortable because they don't like black people, it's just because they are not used to that cultural environment (and not used to being a minority).

I guess i see how you can take it that way. But I was talking w/regard to thats his name before that posted he would be called a racist for similar thinking. Let me say it as follows:

I interviewed at Stewart Medical, but i decided not to go there. At the interview, i was the only white guy, there was one other asian, and the rest were blacks. Walking around the school, I felt it was largely dominated by black students, there weren't enough white people around. Thought Stewart is a really good medical school, i ultimately will not be going there because there are too many black people, it makes me feel uncomfortable.


If that doesn't*sound bigoted, then nothing does. This was not meant to mock the previous posters w/regards to their decision not to attend Tufts, BUT I feel it illustrates how it can clearly be seen as racially biased, and how a white person with similar feelings would be called a racist.

 

[aaj117]

I guess i see how you can take it that way. But I was talking w/regard to thats his name before that posted he would be called a racist for similar thinking. Let me say it as follows:

I interviewed at Stewart Medical, but i decided not to go there. At the interview, i was the only white guy, there was one other asian, and the rest were blacks. Walking around the school, I felt it was largely dominated by black students, there weren't enough white people around. Thought Stewart is a really good medical school, i ultimately will not be going there because there are too many black people, it makes me feel uncomfortable.


If that doesn't*sound bigoted, then nothing does. This was not meant to mock the previous posters w/regards to their decision not to attend Tufts, BUT I feel it illustrates how it can clearly be seen as racially biased, and how a white person with similar feelings would be called a racist.

I still don't see how that would sound bigoted, no one LOVES being a minority somewhere. The white people that i know who applied to howard didn't do so because they thought it would be a nice change to be in the minority, they did so because of the mission there. Everyone knows it's uncomfortable being the only person in a particular situation.

 

[aaj117]

I stand by my previous statement about looking for DIVERSITY in a medical school. I want a good mix. I want students from lots of other countries, with lots of different religions, socioeconomic backgrounds, sexual orientations, gender identities, languages spoken,skin colors, and outside interestes, because i actually do plan to learn from my peers.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

I stand by my previous statement about looking for DIVERSITY in a medical school. I want a good mix. I want students from lots of other countries, with lots of different religions, socioeconomic backgrounds, sexual orientations, gender identities, languages spoken,skin colors, and outside interestes, because i actually do plan to learn from my peers.

I believe you, but stand by my view that you are an exception to not feeling a white person as described above would be seen as a racist or bigot.

 

[aaj117]

I believe you, but stand by my view that you are an exception to not feeling a white person as described above would be seen as a racist or bigot.

I just don't think that's true. And since the only other minority who answered agreed with me, i feel like that's evidence. I think white people are sort of conditioned to think that, because they have to sometimes be overly self-conscious of coming off bigoted when they don't mean to; i think it's just another social construct that's kinda hard to fully understand how someone else might think about it.

 

[FutureAdcom]

I still don't see how that would sound bigoted, no one LOVES being a minority somewhere. The white people that i know who applied to howard didn't do so because they thought it would be a nice change to be in the minority, they did so because of the mission there. Everyone knows it's uncomfortable being the only person in a particular situation.

As I can only speak for myself, when I research a school, I tend to look at the schools tuition, residency match statistics, technology, USMLE pass rates, student housing, etc. etc. While diversity is an added bonus, it will not be the sole factor in my decision to attend an institution or not. Everyone has different preferences, as we can see here.

 

[RandomBlackManX]

I believe you, but stand by my view that you are an exception to not feeling a white person as described above would be seen as a racist or bigot.

I disagree with you. If said person of one race started insulting the other majority race etc, then you would be construed as racist or a bigot. There is a stark difference in saying "I am not comfortable in this situation because I am the minority" in contrast to "I am not comfortable in this situation because black people are _______ (insert insult here)".

 

[phoenix0610]

Just to sort of add on...if you've never experienced being the minority, or feeling like you're standing out and isolated...then you may not understand...but most people wouldn't wish that on their worse enemy. So it's perfectly acceptable for someone to not want to experience that--that's the bottom line.

 

[FutureAdcom]

Just to sort of add on...if you've never experienced being the minority, or feeling like you're standing out and isolated...then you may not understand...but most people wouldn't wish that on their worse enemy. So it's perfectly acceptable for someone to not want to experience that--that's the bottom line.

I have and currently am.And experience what? A culture other than their own? People speak of wanting diversity, but what they are really saying is that they want more people around like themselves. Bottom line^2

 

[RandomBlackManX]

I have and currently am.And experience what? A culture other than their own? People speak of wanting diversity, but what they are really saying is that they want more people around like themselves. Bottom line^2

Are you insinuating that being a minority among a large majority is diversity? If so, your "Bottom line^2" is logically flawed.

www.m-w.com
diversity

One entry found.

Main Entry: di·ver·si·ty Pronunciation: \d&#601;-&#712;v&#601;r-s&#601;-t&#275;, d&#299;-\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural di·ver·si·ties Date: 14th century 1: the condition of being diverse : variety; especially : the inclusion of diverse people (as people of different races or cultures) in a group or organization <programs intended to promote diversity in schools>2: an instance of being diverse <a diversity of opinion>
Please explain? Wouldn't diversity necessitate that small amount of people who resemble each other be a part of a vast group of people who are different from them and everyone else? I mean, how can one argue that a horribly lopsided distribution (ie one of me and a lot of the same thing) be diverse?

 

[FutureAdcom]

Are you insinuating that being a minority among a large majority is diversity? If so, your &quot;Bottom line^2&quot; is logically flawed.

www.m-w.com
diversity

One entry found.

Main Entry: di·ver·si·ty Pronunciation: \d&#601;-&#712;v&#601;r-s&#601;-t&#275;, d&#299;-\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural di·ver·si·ties Date: 14th century 1: the condition of being diverse : variety; especially : the inclusion of diverse people (as people of different races or cultures) in a group or organization <programs intended to promote diversity in schools>2: an instance of being diverse <a diversity of opinion>
Please explain? Wouldn't diversity necessitate that small amount of people who resemble each other be a part of a vast group of people who are different from them and everyone else? I mean, how can one argue that a horribly lopsided distribution (ie one of me and a lot of the same thing) be diverse?

No, I was not. I was trying to state an observation that when most people speak of wanting diversity, they speak of wanting more people around who are like themselves.How you got a &quot;minority amongst a majority&quot; out of my prior post I can't begin to guess.
I am officially done with this weirdness, but do not want to leave without saying that I would be proud to attend any institution with ANY of you; an honor and privilege it would be to be part of the solution and not part of the problem. Best wishes to all of you.

 

[167649]

I just think its a waste to debate AA here. I started this thread just to see if anyone had information on whether medical schools (not undergrad or other programs (jobs, gov, promotions, etc)) practiced AA. I am not passing judgement on it because I don't think anyone is going to have an untainted/objective opinion.

When you opened a thread about AA, regardless of your intentions, you opened a pandora's box my friend.

 

[drizzt3117]

UFMed,

You be interested in knowing that AMCAS does not consider Cuban-Americans a URM group. IIRC, only Puerto Rican and Mexicans are URM among Hispanics.

 

[UFMed]

I just don't think that's true. And since the only other minority who answered agreed with me, i feel like that's evidence. I think white people are sort of conditioned to think that, because they have to sometimes be overly self-conscious of coming off bigoted when they don't mean to; i think it's just another social construct that's kinda hard to fully understand how someone else might think about it.

Jeeze why is everyone jumping the gun on you aaj117 accusing you of racism? 😡
I don't think we meant that we did not choose Tufts because of "white" people- it's just that a school with a "melting pot" population seems more appealing.
Diversity is definitely a huge factor in choosing not only my school but where I live as well. It can influence many things in my life; who'll go to church with me, who I might date, who I can practice my language or traditions with. It's no wonder a lot of my friends had similar backgrounds- our families were practically identical and so we were raised with similar values & lessons. I simply think its surprising to people that many of us are actually looking for a diverse class. Many people don't give it a second thought because they'll be good either way. But for me, I want to be able to learn from all cultures and become the embodiment of what America is supposed to be. Diversity does not mean "a couple of blacks, asians and latinos...yeah we have diversity." No, it means that there is a noticeable variety in the ideas, cultures, and races that provide students with different perspectives. I am not arguing that this has to be forced- I am just saying it is a factor when I am choosing a place to work and play.
I don't think it's racist that aaj117 or I didn't feel "at home" at Tufts. I went to a big ol' Floridian undergrad school- there was def. a lot of diversity. Everyone got along great and I had such a great experience having friends that were Muslim, Jewish, Gay, Black, Korean, Chinese, Mexican, Puerto Rican and Cuban (yes, there is a difference in cultures)- I simply want it all over again.
Think of how much better of a doctor you'd be if your classmates could fill you in on how their cultures are different? You'd be ready for anyone.
It's not racist...to want more races represented in your school! It's not like I said "Oh my god...there's a bunch of caucasians here!?!? I could never go here." It was more like "Man...whose going to come to Spanish Mass with me?"
I mean, I couldn't imagine going to a school where no one else would be able to show the "white" kids how to dance salsa (get ready UF! 😛)

 

[UFMed]

UFMed,

You be interested in knowing that AMCAS does not consider Cuban-Americans a URM group. IIRC, only Puerto Rican and Mexicans are URM among Hispanics.

Yeah, I've heard that before. Thanks for the update. I also just found out that the State of Florida doesn't use AA in college enrollment. Either way, I've never said I think AA is right or wrong because it has a lot of ins &outs, pros & cons. The issue is too complicated for my left-brained-premed-mind to work out.

But, that doesn't change the fact that I want diversity in the classroom.

 

[UFMed]

When you opened a thread about AA, regardless of your intentions, you opened a pandora's box my friend.

Yeah man, I never intended this to happen. I especially do not want a race war to break out because I simply wanted to know what the AAMC's position was on AA, or for any future med students to now look at their classmates with disdain. Can't we all just get along?!

 

[drizzt3117]

The other thing that no one else has mentioned is that it's entirely possible that adcoms have a general idea of how they want the class to break down demographically, and URM and ORM students may not be competing against each other at all. This may have something to do w/ the situation flahless was protesting.

 

[phoenix0610]

Jeeze why is everyone jumping the gun on you aaj117 accusing you of racism? 😡
I don't think we meant that we did not choose Tufts because of "white" people- it's just that a school with a "melting pot" population seems more appealing.

👍 that way no one is left out and there is no one group "in power"

 

[coldweatherblue]

wow, I never really think about this stuff but it is interesting. On one hand it is important for patients to feel comfortable and well-taken care of by their health-care provider. I can see how having a primary-care physician with the same ethnic background as yourself would make you feel comfortable and more willing to go to your doctor for important health issues. So in this case it is responsible for Med Schools to encourage URMs to become doctors.

On the other hand, those average numbers from UCLA outline a pretty big discrepancy! 3.30 BCMP gpa for URM versus 3.65 for non-URM and 28 MCAT versus 32 MCAT is a pretty big gap. It's great as long as the student has the necessary reasoning ability and is willing to work hard and put the time in to become a good doctor. 👍

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

Just to sort of add on...if you've never experienced being the minority, or feeling like you're standing out and isolated...then you may not understand...but most people wouldn't wish that on their worse enemy. So it's perfectly acceptable for someone to not want to experience that--that's the bottom line.

Umm, please don't*be so presumptuous. I was the only one of my cultural and religious type in high school; and maintain the minority status in college. I've taken much ridiculous criticism and stereotyping b/c of it [who ever heard of a poor white Jew from the middle of nowhere. For some reason, ppl. think its okay to insult and ignore religious values more so than its okay to be openly biased against a skin color]. I stand by my opinions before. By no means to you have to agree with me.

 

[UFMed]

Umm, please don't*be so presumptuous. I was the only one of my cultural and religious type in high school; and maintain the minority status in college. I've taken much ridiculous criticism and stereotyping b/c of it [who ever heard of a poor white Jew from the middle of nowhere. For some reason, ppl. think its okay to insult and ignore religious values more so than its okay to be openly biased against a skin color]. I stand by my opinions before. By no means to you have to agree with me.

Shalom! I think you would've benefited from a more diverse school. This way you wouldn't have been the only Jew in your high school and would've explored your own cultural identity further. So you kind of feel our drift about being the only anything. I definitely agree- diversity comes in many different forms- the more the better.

 

[flaahless]

Really? I've never encountered anyone with even a modicum of intelligence (which I assume is required to get into college, not to mention med school) who believes blacks are unintelligent savages who spend all their time doing drugs and shooting each other.

James Watson

 

[flaahless]

As I can only speak for myself, when I research a school, I tend to look at the schools tuition, residency match statistics, technology, USMLE pass rates, student housing, etc. etc. While diversity is an added bonus, it will not be the sole factor in my decision to attend an institution or not. Everyone has different preferences, as we can see here.

Being the only minority is definitely a justifiable concern. When I interviewed at UCSD, my interviewer specifically asked me. "How would you like and handle being the only black male at UCSD-SOM? What about in La Jolla?"

 

[flaahless]

wow, I never really think about this stuff but it is interesting. On one hand it is important for patients to feel comfortable and well-taken care of by their health-care provider. I can see how having a primary-care physician with the same ethnic background as yourself would make you feel comfortable and more willing to go to your doctor for important health issues. So in this case it is responsible for Med Schools to encourage URMs to become doctors.

On the other hand, those average numbers from UCLA outline a pretty big discrepancy! 3.30 BCMP gpa for URM versus 3.65 for non-URM and 28 MCAT versus 32 MCAT is a pretty big gap. It's great as long as the student has the necessary reasoning ability and is willing to work hard and put the time in to become a good doctor. 👍

Is that just UCLA, or is it also UCLA-Drew and UCR/UCLA Haider?

 

[wutwinb]

James Watson

nice example 👍

 

[UFMed]

Ol'Watson...he had a good run... burned out

 

[batman1983]

Is there an affirmative action policy in selecting candidates for medical school? In other words, do ADCOMS give preference based on race or ethnicity?
I've been trying to reach a consensus on this, but I haven't been able to find a solid answer. I figured that they would give preference to those who mark (and explain) themselves as under represented in medicine (which I would attribute to socioeconomic status, not just simply race). I am not even 100% sure if all (or some) schools even give preference for UR in medicine.

So, if this is the case, if you happen to be a minority, are you automatically given preference, or is it dependent on whether you feel you are under represented? 😕

Well duh.....Im thinking whole purpose of this post was just to start some debate/arguement

 

[batman1983]

Really no flame war intended, you basically just insinuated that MsJLewis only benefited because of her race. I mean not that she might have had extenuating circumstances or be socially disadvantaged or anything else. Why do you assume she didn't have more to bring to the table.

Believe what you will but unless you know everything don't say things like that!

Oops was that a flame war, my bad🙄

Well yeh........Also, I dont think schools put as much preference on socioeconomic/economically disadvantaged status as they do on race. I know lots of ppl that are economically disadvantaged with great stats that are unable to get in to medical school, but URMs with low stats that get into top tier schools. Its just the way it is.....

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

Shalom! I think you would've benefited from a more diverse school. This way you wouldn't have been the only Jew in your high school and would've explored your own cultural identity further. So you kind of feel our drift about being the only anything. I definitely agree- diversity comes in many different forms- the more the better.

Yeah I do. I guess it is easier to restate my point as such (and this was the only point i was trying to make): I understand where your and aaj's decision come from w/regards to Tufts not being culturally diverse enough. I simply feel that often a double standard is applied w/regards to a white person and a black person reaching the same decision. Now [like I said] I DO BELIEVE YOU guys w/regards to not seeing a white person making the same decision as racially biased; But i still feel this is a minority viewpoint. Thinking about it, however, I think (as aaj I believe mentioned) that whites are moire critical of another white person's choice along these lines, and it is a factor of social conditioning.

On a different note, though in the same direction; I would not choose or not choose a school based on the diversity and/or # of Jewish people, I don't feel it is the best reason to make such an academic decision. However I concede that the reasons you guys have stated [desiring greater diversification] are valid/legit - I just don't place the same value on them that you do.

 

[phoenix0610]

Umm, please don't*be so presumptuous. I was the only one of my cultural and religious type in high school; and maintain the minority status in college. I've taken much ridiculous criticism and stereotyping b/c of it [who ever heard of a poor white Jew from the middle of nowhere. For some reason, ppl. think its okay to insult and ignore religious values more so than its okay to be openly biased against a skin color]. I stand by my opinions before. By no means to you have to agree with me.

I said if..you're right, I don't know you from Adam--I was throwing out an hypothetical to explain the views of the other posters. And it's wrong to allienate anyone, to make anyone feel less than for whatever reason, and I'm sorry you've had to experience that. One way (just one) to some what alleviate that is to have a diverse environment, which goes back to the heart of the argument--why would you want to be somewhere where everyone is the same--like you or unlike you?

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

I said if..you're right, I don't know you from Adam--I was throwing out an hypothetical to explain the views of the other posters. And it's wrong to allienate anyone, to make anyone feel less than for whatever reason, and I'm sorry you've had to experience that. One way (just one) to some what alleviate that is to have a diverse environment, which goes back to the heart of the argument--why would you want to be somewhere where everyone is the same--like you or unlike you?

[thinking about it more....will repost in the morning]

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

On a different note; I would really like people's opinion on the sentiment below. I am not a close minded individual, yet I feel I have made a good point here, and want to know what others think.

Many people who check of the little "Caucasian" box never owned a slave in their entire family history. Millions of immigrants from Russia, Poland , heck, all of Europe have come to this country (esp. oh I dunno, around Hitler's time) and have been economically disadvantaged for generations, and have no "debt to society"; kind of thing that could justify URM admission over any of them. It is a reverse discrimination system - being white*, regardless of origin, disqualifies you from certain aid available strictly to non-whites. If i put any URM in place of white* [above], it would NOT be okay. I don't agree with this.

If you do disagree, I want to hear why (really; I never claimed to be right all the time), but don't turn this personal.

 

[flaahless]

On a different note; I would really like people's opinion on the sentiment below. I am not a close minded individual, yet I feel I have made a good point here, and want to know what others think.

I agree with placing more value on socioeconomical disadvantages than "race." That's why I am for affirmative action as a system to help disadvantaged and oppressed groups. However, since the most vocal proponents of affirmative action have historically been African Americans, affirmative action is typically associated with African Americans, even though the group that has benefitted the most has been caucasian women.

There are plenty of disadvantaged and oppressed groups in America. I know in CA there is a constant change in which ethnicities are considered socioeconomically disadvantaged, and Asian Pacific Islanders, Hmong and Cambodians are heavily considered.

So my answer to your post is to be more vocal; protest and lobby for change.

 

[UFMed]

Well duh.....Im thinking whole purpose of this post was just to start some debate/arguement

Not at all batman, you should read my other posts. I did not mean to start an argument, why the heck would I want to do that? As a minority I wouldn't want people to tell me how much I don't deserve to be in medicine. In fact the only reason I started this thread is because some guy told me I didn't belong in medical school because the only reason I got in was because of AA. Don't be so cynical batman... 😳


Plus, the States of Florida, Michigan (and I am thinking California) and other schools, do not use race as a factor for admission.

 

[drizzt3117]

Sure they dont... They might not have official quotas, but they certainly are looking to have a ethnically diverse class.

 

[flaahless]

^^ Since the passage of prop 209, California does NOT use affirmative action. This is written in state legislature.

"(a) The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting."

further down...

"f) For the purposes of this section, "state" shall include, but not necessarily be limited to, the state itself, any city, county, city and county, public university system, including the University of California, community college district, school district, special district, or any other political subdivision or governmental instrumentality of or within the state."

Wikipedia prop 209

 

[Mister Pie]

It is illegal for UC to use race as a sole factor in admissions but they are allowed to consider it as part of the overall package. Same thing with Michigan and other schools. They aren't allowed to add points for minorities like they used to but they can still factor it in qualitatively.

There are a lot of things about AA that I don't think are necessarily fair but I don't think I'll go into that right now. I think that a system based on socioeconomic factors during upbringing would probably be more equitable.

 

[littlealex]

Not all schools do it. However, many do. I do think disadvantaged students should be given some more careful consideration of their applications to see how much the lack of opportunities had affected their performance. It should not all be a numbers game.

That is not to say that students should get into a school despite subpar performance just because the color of their skin though. As I'm sure the affirmative action students already do, they must demonstrate their talents in other ways. A diamond in the rough should be discovered, but that does not mean we should treat every stone as a diamond.

As for California schools, race often appears to help because it is accompanied by the candidate's fluency in Spanish. As for that, it is just supply and demands. We do need more Spanish speaking doctors, so I don't see what's wrong with California schools given people who are fluent in Spanish, or just Hispanics in general (because they're more likely to work in a Hispanic community) some extra consideration. Supply and demand.

 

[UFMed]

Sure they dont... They might not have official quotas, but they certainly are looking to have a ethnically diverse class.

If its not an official quota, then I don't see why people would argue about it? If the school's are going for a diverse class, then race is the equivalent of some other cool characteristic, like being a gifted pianist or a vegetarian.

I do agree with the supply/demand perspective. In Florida there are pockets in the community where a standard caucasian would never think of working... yet someone from that neighborhood may in fact plan on going back and helping the ol'home.

And plus, I roll my eyes every time I hear someone say "They didn't accept the guy with the 35, but the girl with the 30!!! Oh, and she happened to be a minority, therefore it must've been because of her race." That simply can't be true. There are many factors being considered in these applications... it is not all about MCAT & GPA. There is no evidence of discrimination when a school is accepting the students with a lower GPA &/or MCAT. It is not definitive proof, and you gunners have to realize that there is more to the study and practice of medicine than how well you scored in MCAT/GPA. This is why we have Letters of recommendation, Personal Statements, Different Majors, Different Life Experiences, Different Activities, Secondary Applications, and of course, Interviews.

Wise words from a Chair of an ADCOM during an interview: "All of you here today obviously did well enough to be invited for an interview. So don't stress and doubt yourself. Just know... we prefer to accept someone we feel... we can go out and have a beer with."

It would have to be my guess that the ADCOMS really do look at applications holistically and decide how well this person will excel in their program, and adhere to their school's mission.

From the looks of it, if AA is not being practiced but a strive for Diversity, then no one is really getting harmed here- only the applicants that don't have anything interesting other than a good score on the Bio section of the MCAT. The rule of thumb is (and always has been) "stick out" from the other applicants, and this can be done in many ways. But some people can help this more than others.

 

[Mister Pie]

With all due respect, I think it is difficult to argue that minority status does not play positively in one's chances of admission. How else can one explain why the URM students have lower statistics on average? If race wasn't playing a factor at all, shouldn't the average statistics be about the same? I think that it is difficult to say that minority races are consistently having better LORs, ECs, etc. to compensate.

Anyways, not trying to disrespect anyone on this thread. Getting into medical school for anyone here is the culmination of years of hard work and anyone who gets in deserves major props.

 

[drizzt3117]

Well I think there are two some different things going on here. First of all, flaahless is absolutely right in saying that there is no overt affirmative action going on in California schools anymore, which is certainly a good development for Asian students as prior to the passing of 209 there was a cap on the number of Asian students that could be admitted to each UC. That's another issue altogether that I'm not going to get into. As far as race in admissions in UCs, it is considered as a factor (and an important one) but certainly isn't the sole basis for an admit/deny decision.

I have a friend that is a director of admissions at one of the UCs and he said that in their particular case, they have a pretty good idea of how they want their classes broken down demographically (although of course this will vary from year to year depending on the dynamics of the specific applicant pool, but is more similar than you think) and they usually know what percentage of the final class is going to be from URM and non-URM groups. In this way, essentially URM candidates are competing against each other, and not against the pool as a whole.

While I'm not sure other medical schools use a similar system, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case. This is a good thing and a bad thing for URM students IMO.

Flaahless pointed out on the last page that he thought UCLA wasn't taking enough URM students for their undergrad and that certainly could be true. I'm not sure undergrad institutions are building their class in the same way exactly, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if they were. Even if they can't use a hard quota (such as exactly 10%) they can say that they're going to want 10% of the class to be URM for the purposes of diversity. It's just semantics really. As I said, this can be good and bad. It can be good if the URM applicant pool has fewer applicants that year and all qualified applicants can be accepted while it can be bad if it's larger and qualified applicants are turned away.

Regarding non-URM students and their view on this situation, it's my contention that they shouldn't be upset about URM students receiving admission with lower stats because they aren't competing against each other directly for all intents and purposes.

BTW, the above is my opinion on what is actually happening in admissions and I am not stating my opinion either for or against the above policy. I've made a number of posts about what I think should happen in admissions (i.e. socioeconomic status should be the most important factor, with commitment to serve URM in communities a secondary factor) but the fact remains that medical schools remain committed to diversity, which I think is a good thing, but I think they're going about it in the wrong way.

 

[flaahless]

With all due respect, I think it is difficult to argue that minority status does not play positively in one's chances of admission. How else can one explain why the URM students have lower statistics on average? If race wasn't playing a factor at all, shouldn't the average statistics be about the same? I think that it is difficult to say that minority races are consistently having better LORs, ECs, etc. to compensate.

Anyways, not trying to disrespect anyone on this thread. Getting into medical school for anyone here is the culmination of years of hard work and anyone who gets in deserves major props.

The HBCUs have lower stats in general and skew the data.

 

[flaahless]

I have a friend that is a director of admissions at one of the UCs and he said that in their particular case, they have a pretty good idea of how they want their classes broken down demographically (although of course this will vary from year to year depending on the dynamics of the specific applicant pool, but is more similar than you think) and they usually know what percentage of the final class is going to be from URM and non-URM groups. In this way, essentially URM candidates are competing against each other, and not against the pool as a whole.

UCSD-SOM chooses their class in a similar fashion. They have an idea of how they want their class to be. They want X number of students interested in research, x number interested in academic medicine, x number interested in clinical practice, x number interested in health care policy, x number who will serve internationally, locally... high stats vs. low stats etc. So essentially, everyone is competing against each other for a particular position.

 

[drizzt3117]

Ultimately, I think the take-home message should be that people should just do their best and let fate determines what happens. It's very likely that they are going to compared by medical schools against people similar to themselves in any case, so it's very unlikely that race will really affect each person's chances to get into school. No one chooses what ethnicity they are born with, and all you can do is your best.

As far as these pre-med AA arguments, they're going to come up every few weeks no matter what, it's just the nature of the process. That said, I'll state the following for posterity.

To non-URM students:

Yes, URM students are going to get in that have lower stats than you. It probably won't affect your particular admissions circumstances anyways, b/c those students are likely competing for a different place in the class, but if you want to be jealous of someone else for being born a URM, go ahead. Medical schools want to build diversity into their classes and one of their goals is to help underserved populations. Most of those populations are made up of the ethnicities designated as URM. Complaining about URMs getting preferential treatment isn't accomplishing anything. If you want to be part of the solution instead of being part of the problem, contribute to helping underserved populations get health care or education.

To URM students:

You have nothing to apologize for. No one can choose what ethnicity they are born with. That said, denying that race can play a role in admissions is being myopic. Certainly it's not the only reason you're being admitted, regardless of what others are saying, and you should be proud of what you've accomplished. Everyone wants to succeed on their own merits, not because of their ethnicity, gender, or whatever, but as I said before, it's not like you chose to be a URM. Your ethnicity is part of you and you should be proud of it.

 

[flaahless]

Ehh.. The REAL take home message:

To SDNers:

If you have not thoroughly read an applicant's PS, secondary essays, LORs, seen them interview etc. then you have absolutely no idea why a school would be interested in them. To undermine someone's accomplishments based on the conjecture of affirmative action is foolish and disrespectful. Sure AA may be used in some cases, but not all. Schools want to enroll the best students possible and we should trust their decisions in who they pick, after all, they have years of experience doing this and understand what makes one student more qualified than the other. Unfortunately, many of you fail to realize that a high GPA and high MCAT do not equal higher qualifications. With that said, focus on your application and do what you can to make yourself the most well-rounded and compelling applicant possible.

Quote from UC Irvine adcom: "A student who can name all of the enzymes in the kreb cycle is smart, but a student who understands the social effects of the crack epidemic is useful."