Affirmative Action

[ribcrackindoc]

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In order to gain admission to an American medical school, one must have strong academic credentials and perform well on the MCAT.

Of course, this statement does not apply if you're Black. For you, all you have to do is walk into a medical school and say "I be Black." Once this is done, the school will throw money, scholarships, and free tutors at you for 4-7 years (usually 6 or 7 based on how my classmates performed) until you finally pass. Congratulations DOCTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙄

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm

It makes me sick that the average black matriculant is literally 2 SD's below the mean of matriculants nationwide. It makes me sick that RACE is the SINGLE most important criterion for admission.

 

[cdql]

RACE is the SINGLE most important criterion for everything in life. Are you just realizing this for the first time?

Who are the major players in the business world?

Who are the major players on the football fields of the NFL?

Who bears the brunt of the grunt work in the computing industry?

There is racism everywhere you turn. And you can whine til you are blue in the face about it, but it will never change. I find it odd you are so incensed about this though. It's not as if admitting those applicants hurts you directly.

 

[ribcrackindoc]

RACE is the SINGLE most important criterion for everything in life. Are you just realizing this for the first time?

Who are the major players in the business world?

Who are the major players on the football fields of the NFL?

Who bears the brunt of the grunt work in the computing industry?

There is racism everywhere you turn. And you can whine til you are blue in the face about it, but it will never change. I find it odd you are so incensed about this though. It's not as if admitting those applicants hurts you directly.

Hold on there! Football and basketball players are mostly black because they are SUPERIOR athletes, end of story. Written tests prove academic capabilities. No matter how politically incorrect it is, if there are gross discrepencies along racial lines (and there are), that proves intellectual differences.

It doesn't personally hurt me, but here is why I am intense about it: There are a FINITE number of medical school seats. When you fill some of them with *****s, we are depriving qualified people from personal liberty. Every seat we fill with some idiot because he was the right race is preventing a deserving applicant from realizing a personal goal and the American Dream.

 

[ultimateend]

Yikes.

 

[ribcrackindoc]

America is about providing the FREEDOM to PURSUE happiness. It's not about our government or anyone else stepping in and DISTRIBUTING happiness and wealth to those who are too lazy or dumb to realize it for themselves.

 

[Blake]

I think it's time to make a ''Discuss Affirmative Action here'' forum.

 

[cdql]

What's the point? Nothing will ever change.

Is it unfair? Sure

But life is unfair. For those who didn't get in because a minority applicant supposedly "stole" their seat, my advice to them is, "You should have studied harder. If you come from a more advantaged background, your stats should have been that much higher. And because they weren't, you are SOL"

 

[ultimateend]

I don't think having all white doctors treating minorities is good for the country. A lot of the black doctors go on to serve black communities where white doctors mostly do not go. They also give the children a role model.

While I think socioeconomic status should be the main factor that adcoms look at when considering someone that comes from a disadvantaged background, being a minority in itself means that you have most likely dealt with racism and been discriminated against, and hence should receive a boost from affirmative action.

 

[cdql]

I totally agree with the above post.

Medical schools may accept "less qualified" applicants because it adds to the student diversity. It may seem like a stupid, trivial thing just to boast "We have a diverse student body!"

But it does mean something to have doctors of all different kinds of races graduating from your school. Doctors often go back to serve their own communities and I know I would certainly feel more comfortable going to see a doctor of my own race rather than seeing the absolute brainiest doc out there. (OK...for neurosurgery, I'll take the latter 🙂 But for a family doctor, I don't need a genius. I just need someone I'm comfortable with. And no standardized exam can measure that.)

 

[RonaldColeman]

I find it odd you are so incensed about this though. It's not as if admitting those applicants hurts you directly.

I think what really pisses people off about affirmative action is not that people with "lesser" qualifications are admitted (The people who are admitted under affirmative action largely end up at the bottom of the class just like the more qualified, but still borderline, students they are replacing would), it's that: (1)these people refuse to admit that it's affirmative action that got them in and (2)many of these candidates end up in schools that they do not belong in. As a previous poster said, the only reason an African-American with a 24 MCAT is getting into medical school is because he is black. Regarding the second point, it's one thing to let lesser qualified students into a medical school to accomplish the noble goals that proponents of affirmative action often cite; it's another thing to give them substantial preference at the highest ranked medical schools. There was once a study in a journal called Black Education (or something close to that) which reported that if the top 10 medical schools only used academic criteria to admit students, there would only be a total of 2 black students among the 10 schools. Now think about how many african-american students are in 1 of these schools.

 

[cdql]

But medicine is more than simple numbers and as such, admission to a medical school should entail more than just academic criteria. I'm sure that plays into the decision as well.

 

[Gentle]

Hold on there! Football and basketball players are mostly black because they are SUPERIOR athletes, end of story. Written tests prove academic capabilities. No matter how politically incorrect it is, if there are gross discrepencies along racial lines (and there are), that proves intellectual differences.

It doesn't personally hurt me, but here is why I am intense about it: There are a FINITE number of medical school seats. When you fill some of them with *****s, we are depriving qualified people from personal liberty. Every seat we fill with some idiot because he was the right race is preventing a deserving applicant from realizing a personal goal and the American Dream.

You can be as intense as you want, all day long, all night long but I can tell that you are not beyond shallow. Atleast by reading your posted material. "No matter how politically incorrect it is, if there are gross discrepencies along racial lines (and there are), that proves intellectual differences". I do not know how many times people will tell you that what ever scenario you are describing doesn't apply to all minority applicants. Secondly, a discrepancy in scores DOES NOT directly equal intellectual difference. It seems as if you're making an assumption to belong to the "deserving applicant" pool. How come you can't even get your spelling straight?? Have you ever taken into consideration what some of these minority applicants have to go through in order to successfully go through college?? I guess not! You would've have known better not to make such a creepy generalization. He who calls another human being an "idiot" might just be very sorry for themselves when things turn around. Take note "deserving applicant"...! "depriving qualified people from personal liberty" really????hahahaha. No one is depriving you from your liberty...don't be afraid. Maybe you should tell your brothers and sisters who make up >90% of the class to give you some chance.

-Gentle-

 

[RonaldColeman]

But medicine is more than simple numbers and as such, admission to a medical school should entail more than just academic criteria. I'm sure that plays into the decision as well.

I agree that it shouldn't just be about numbers, but do you really believe that other than their skin color black applicants are doing anything more extracurricular-wise than their white and asian counterparts? I bet that the average white and Asian applicant has more extracurriculars than the average minority applicant. Either way, my personal opinion is that limited affirmative action is okay at lower tier medical schools, but the absolute best medical schools should largely consider academic performance.

 

[docjolly]

I think it's time to make a ''Discuss Affirmative Action here'' forum.

👍

Someone should inform a mod about this..

Seriously, like several other polarized issues on SDN, this one has been beaten with the equivalence to that a dead horse..

I certainly agree with the poster who stated that racial injustice is a fact of life. Yet, when it comes to gaining acceptance to medical school, it seems as though the color of my skin (with my subsequent acceptances to medical school) is the only form of racial injustice that matters. What about the racial injustice endured by immigrant workers of color, for instance, who are unable to receive adequate primary care?

It's certainly very easy to have a narrow understanding of the issue, when you're on the receiving end "injustice"...


When I think about arguments posted by the OP, I think of a very close friend of mine that went to Columbia with me. She is an African American female like myself. She was also strong applicant (save her MCAT score). She and I had similar GPAs, extracurricular activities, etc. She had a well-written personal statement, and no personality flaws that would have prevented her from getting an otherwise normal range of interviews/acceptances. Yet, while I applied, was granted several interviews, and received acceptances, she was rejected, completely. I wonder if the "advantage" she had as an African American applicant was working in her favor then?

Just a bit of food for thought..

Oh well, the discussion will continue.

On another note, Blake, how are you doing?

 

[happydays]

There's a reason that despite all the help given to URMs, they remain under-represented. That's why AA can't stop right now.

 

[cdql]

It would depend on the applicant's background. I would say overcoming poverty and a broken family (horrible, horrible generalization I know...but let's just use it for argument's sake) is a lot more impressive than being president of the pre-med society or being a member of the blood drive team. (Let's be honest...most college extracurricular activites are complete bull****. All of it is blatant resume padding. Hell, I know kids who created clubs and did nothing at all just so they could say they were president of so and so)

The medical school is accepting these minority applicants knowing they might not be "as good" as the other applicants because the med school has to serve a community. How would it look to the black community if a school like Harvard didn't produce any black doctors?

What purpose does it serve if a good school is located in a primarily black neighborhood and produces all-white doctors? There's a level of trust that will never be established between the doctors and the patients (again, another horrible generalization but research shows that doctors and patients of the same race typically have a much stronger relationship)

 

[Blake]

👍

Someone should inform a mod about this..

Seriously, like several other polarized issues on SDN, this one has been beaten with the equivalence to that a dead horse..

Oh well, the discussion will continue.

On another note, Blake, how are you doing?

Well, it's exams week, and we haven't had a single test since the beginning of 2006, so my brain is clinically dead. Looks like the human body gets used to 5 hours of sleep each day for a week quite rapidly. 👍 . On a positive note, only haematology exam left 😀

 

[ribcrackindoc]

"Diversity" is a load of crap. If a school had males, females, whites, asians, indians, cubans, mexicans, old people, young people, foreigners, transvestites, and aliens it would be considered to LACK DIVERSITY. This of course is only because blacks were not on the list. So lets redefine "diversity" to mean "plenty of black people around."

"diversity" should not be a goal in itself. Nor should having people of different heights. It doesn't save lives. DOCTOR'S save lives.

Being a "minority" doesn't make one "disadvantaged". Being beated as a child and literally not having books to read as child makes one disadvantaged. What if an Asian kid grew up poor? Nobody is protecting him! Nobody is fighting for him to get a "boost" or free ticket to med school.

Lets redefine "minority" as well. Since there aren't many indians or asians, yet they don't count as "minorities", the definition can't have anything to do with numbers. How about Minority = "people from a race that, on average, cannot compete with the average citizen" Now I want asians and whites and hispanics to get minority status in professional sports!!!!!!!

 

[RonaldColeman]

Have you ever taken into consideration what some of these minority applicants have to go through in order to successfully go through college?? I guess not! You would've have known better not to make such a creepy generalization.
-Gentle-

This can apply to white and asian students as well. If you really think that it's poor ghetto blacks and mexicans who benefit from affirmative action in medical schools, you are wrong. It actually helps your typical assimilated middle to upper class blacks and mexicans--who, by the way, still score lower on standardized exams than white and asian students from families below the poverty line.

 

[cdql]

These conversations always seem to end the same way: with no one agreeing. Not that it matters since medical schools will continue to accept these under represented minorities whether we all agree they should or not.

So I'll leave you with this:

 

[ribcrackindoc]

This can apply to white and asian students as well. If you really think that it's poor ghetto blacks and mexicans who benefit from affirmative action in medical schools, you are wrong. It actually helps your typical assimilated middle to upper class blacks and mexicans--who, by the way, still score lower on standardized exams than white and asian students from families below the poverty line.

That's absolutely correct. There was a study that showed the SAT scores of the different socioeconomic and racial groups. Guess what, blacks from families who earned >100,000/year were outperformed on the SAT by whites and asians who were from families who earned <20,000/year.

 

[GoJoeyMojo]

These conversations always seem to end the same way: with no one agreeing. Not that it matters since medical schools will continue to accept these under represented minorities whether we all agree they should or not.

So I'll leave you with this:

Nice Pic. You'll have to keep that one around for the next time a thread with this topic gets started.

 

[Ghost]

It doesn't personally hurt me, but here is why I am intense about it: There are a FINITE number of medical school seats. When you fill some of them with *****s, we are depriving qualified people from personal liberty. Every seat we fill with some idiot because he was the right race is preventing a deserving applicant from realizing a personal goal and the American Dream.

amen my white brother!! i'm with you. i am sick and tired of this crap!! it's time the white race unites and fights back!!! if they want to take our seats, then i say WE TAKE THEIR SEATS!!! we start sending all of our white brothers and sisters into their underfunded, overcrowded, understaffed elementary, middle, and high schools. screw it, they want to take the white man's right to personal liberty........we will take their right to personal liberty by not giving them the freedom to attend schools in their own neighborhoods. they will be forced to go to our property tax rich suburbian schools.......schools that actually have the money for new books, computers, music and art programs, oh and teachers who care......man, that will get em!! as an added side effect, with our white brothers on their basketball teams, the quality of basketball in inner cities all across the nation will plummet and then...........welcome back larry bird to the NBA!!!! stand up ye pigmentless people and fight for the AMERICAN DREAM!!! i wonder what they dream about...........ahhh, nevermind, not important...........FIGHT FOR THE WHITE AMERICAN DREAM!!!!

p.s. - the revolution will be televised

 

[ribcrackindoc]

amen my white brother!! i'm with you. i am sick and tired of this crap!! it's time the white race unites and fights back!!! if they want to take our seats, then i say WE TAKE THEIR SEATS!!! we start sending all of our white brothers and sisters into their underfunded, overcrowded, understaffed elementary, middle, and high schools. screw it, they want to take the white man's right to personal liberty........we will take their right to personal liberty by not giving them the freedom to attend schools in their own neighborhoods. they will be forced to go to our property tax rich suburbian schools.......schools that actually have the money for new books, computers, music and art programs, oh and teachers who care......man, that will get em!! as an added side effect, with our white brothers on their basketball teams, the quality of basketball in inner cities all across the nation will plummet and then...........welcome back larry bird to the NBA!!!! stand up ye pigmentless people and fight for the AMERICAN DREAM!!! i wonder what they dream about...........ahhh, nevermind, not important...........FIGHT FOR THE WHITE AMERICAN DREAM!!!!

p.s. - the revolution will be televised

That's funny, I enjoy the sarcasm. But a couple points:
1) not that it matters, but I'm not white (not 100%) anyways
2) they aren't "our" seats. the seats don't belong to any race, nor should they.

 

[wuironl]

Why is there so much anger surrounding affirmative action? There are other mechanisms within the admissions machine that grant students with low MCAT scores and/or GPAs admission to medical school such as legacy, monetary donations, non-traditional circumstances/experiences etc. These individuals are never contested as mentally deficient or unworthy. Do you think ADCOM’s come across a black applicant's file and say, “you can skip the test scores, gpa, clinical experience, and research, his skin color is all we need.” Geeze,women have benefited most from affirmative action. The AAMC feels that affirmative action is one way to address past grievances and current ones administered to blacks as a whole. Why not criticize the ADCOMS or the AAMC, no; it’s easier to write an inflammatory thread about blacks as lazy and ignorant. Wow, good job! 👎

 

[want2beadoc]

It makes me sick that the average black matriculant is literally 2 SD's below the mean of matriculants nationwide. It makes me sick that RACE is the SINGLE most important criterion for admission.

Umm I'm counting ~1 SD... For example, matriculants VR MCAT score SD for all is 1.8, mean = 9.7: 9.7 - 1.8 = 7.9 < mean = 8.2 for black. Also the percentage of black matriculants to applicants is 38% while for whites it is 47.3% (it's late I could be way off in my math skills)

 

[fun8stuff]

It would depend on the applicant's background. I would say overcoming poverty and a broken family (horrible, horrible generalization I know...but let's just use it for argument's sake) is a lot more impressive than being president of the pre-med society or being a member of the blood drive team. (Let's be honest...most college extracurricular activites are complete bull****. All of it is blatant resume padding. Hell, I know kids who created clubs and did nothing at all just so they could say they were president of so and so)

The medical school is accepting these minority applicants knowing they might not be "as good" as the other applicants because the med school has to serve a community. How would it look to the black community if a school like Harvard didn't produce any black doctors?

What purpose does it serve if a good school is located in a primarily black neighborhood and produces all-white doctors? There's a level of trust that will never be established between the doctors and the patients (again, another horrible generalization but research shows that doctors and patients of the same race typically have a much stronger relationship)

Not true. Research has not shown this. It turns out, that once these people from poorer backgrounds obtain their dream of being a doc and making $$$, they do not go back to their poor neighborhood that they struggled for so many years to get out of.

Affirmative action is inherently wrong.... why??
1) To give preference to someone based solely on race is wrong? It was wrong in 1800-1960s that blacks did not receive equal treatment, likewise it is wrong that whites do not receive the same treatments as blacks. 2 wrongs do nto make a right.

2) African Americans know that they do not need to work that hard to get into medical school... so why work any harder than a 24 MCAT 30 gpa? Whites have to work their asses off. There is no incentive for blacks to do so. How are things going to get better?

This argument is not about AA for people from socioeconomic disadvantage background. It is about giving preferences to people based solely on race. I am all for people of all races giving a slight advantage depending on their background- but it shoud be taken into consideration under background... and should not necessarily be equivalent to a perfect MCAT score, as being black is.

 

[billclinton]

Why is there so much anger surrounding affirmative action?

Wouldn't you be upset if someone gave preference to a white guy instead of you because you were black?

There are other mechanisms within the admissions machine that grant students with low MCAT scores and/or GPAs admission to medical school such as legacy, monetary donations, non-traditional circumstances/experiences etc.

These might make up 1% of everyone that gets in. A significant majority of african americans would not get in if it weren't for affirmative action. It's not a point of one group being mentally deficient, african americans are just as capable as whites... why do they need this HUGE advantage?

 

[wuironl]

Affirmative action is inherently wrong.... why??
1) To give preference to someone based solely on race is wrong? It was wrong in 1800-1960s that blacks did not receive equal treatment, likewise it is wrong that whites do not receive the same treatments as blacks. 2 wrongs do nto make a right.


You really think white preference magically stopped in the 1960's hahahahaha

Integration takes a long time and I'm sure you can tell by looking at educational integration, professional intergration , and housing that it hasn't come a long way...

 

[wuironl]

Wouldn't you be upset if someone gave preference to a white guy instead of you because you were black?

People give preferences to whites over blacks all the time. There is a whole series of literature on this started in the late 90’s and continuing to be written called white privilege, read Time Wise among other good sources. In fact, the main arguments about white privilege are written by whites not blacks.

These might make up 1% of everyone that gets in. A significant majority of african americans would not get in if it weren't for affirmative action. It's not a point of one group being mentally deficient, african americans are just as capable as whites... why do they need this HUGE advantage?

You say 1 percent, but you cannot substantiate this number with statistics or a source. Others claim that medical school seats are too precious to be given up for reasons other than intellectual potential as measured by gpa and MCAT scores. The fact stands that blacks are not taking seats from qualified white, orange, or green applicants in any type of significant proportion. The number of blacks admitted to medical school has not changed much since the early 1900s, that time when whites had preference... strange how that works

tired, night

 

[RonaldColeman]

amen my white brother!! i'm with you. i am sick and tired of this crap!! it's time the white race unites and fights back!!! if they want to take our seats, then i say WE TAKE THEIR SEATS!!! we start sending all of our white brothers and sisters into their underfunded, overcrowded, understaffed elementary, middle, and high schools. screw it, they want to take the white man's right to personal liberty........we will take their right to personal liberty by not giving them the freedom to attend schools in their own neighborhoods. they will be forced to go to our property tax rich suburbian schools.......schools that actually have the money for new books, computers, music and art programs, oh and teachers who care......man, that will get em!!

You just don't get it. White and Asian students in schools like that ARE scoring higher than blacks and mexicans at property tax rich suburban schools. We have data on average test scores for different races as a function of family income. When you look at the average scores for blacks and mexicans at the highest income brackets and compare those averages to the averages of white and asian students at the lowest income brackets, the poor white and asian kids are scoring higher. These are facts that cannot be debated. When you bring up economic factors to explain test score gaps among races, you are basically admitting your own ignorance about the topic. Among the informed, this is not even considered any more. The focus of the debate now is explaining why poor white and asian kids score higher than rich black and mexican kids.

 

[silas2642]

In order to gain admission to an American medical school, one must have strong academic credentials and perform well on the MCAT.

Of course, this statement does not apply if you're Black. For you, all you have to do is walk into a medical school and say "I be Black." Once this is done, the school will throw money, scholarships, and free tutors at you for 4-7 years (usually 6 or 7 based on how my classmates performed) until you finally pass. Congratulations DOCTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🙄

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm

It makes me sick that the average black matriculant is literally 2 SD's below the mean of matriculants nationwide. It makes me sick that RACE is the SINGLE most important criterion for admission.

Get over it. If you are entering your professional field with this attitude that URMs don't deserve to be here as much as white people who invariably work their asses off to overcome flagrant discrimination of adcoms (who may I add, are mostly white), you're going to be miserable and so is everyone who has to work with you. You're the only one whose future you can even remotely control right now, so focus on becoming the best doctor you can be and stop wasting time and energy being bitter about affirmative action.

Do underqualified URMs get accepted to medical schools? Yes. Do underqualified caucasians get accepted to medical schools? Yes. The danger comes with generalizations; with people you have to take them one at a time. You're going to have the chance to work with some amazing and brilliant physicians who are black, white, asian, latino, etc, and you're going to have to learn how to deal with some idiotic physicians who are black, white, asian, latino, but my point is it's dangerous to make stereotypes and that you have to take people as individuals.

And like a previous poster has already pointed out, there is more to being a qualified applicant than just mcat scores and gpa. What do these numbers predict, really? When's the last time you went to the doctor and asked him his mcat/gpa-- you probably have never done this because these numbers, in the long run, don't predict the kind of physician you are going to be.