All things considered.....

[PersianMeow]

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Hello folks! I've reconsidered going back to school to pursue a career in medicine. My sister, who is an older nontraditional student, and just entered her second year of medical school reignited a long forgotten desire of mine to pursue medicine.

What I'm looking for is some insight from those who've been grinding though their adult responsibilities while pursuing a second career in medicine. I'd also love to get feedback about my "odds" of being considered outside of a MCAT score because we all know the emphasis placed upon that score.

A brief summary of my academic background. I did poorly my first few years of college. I was in pursuit of a strong social life and less of an academic one. It resulted in some deficiencies in my transcripts. However, I ended up with an undergrad gpa of 3.05 and roughly 2.9 in the sciences. I ended up getting two masters. One in public health and a second in social work. My GPA ended up as a 3.65. I worked two jobs all the way though graduate school (80 hour weeks were the norm unfortunately). I currently work as a clinical social worker in a level 1 trauma hospital, own a private practice and a start-up company doing nothing health related (growing gourmet mushrooms and micro greens) I've done some public policy research and been a board member for a few nonprofits. Basically what I'm getting at is I have a wealth of experience I don't want to belabor here

My understanding is that I would need to take the science classes because how long ago it was. What options should I consider moving forward? I know there are some schools that give individuals higher marks if they come from disadvantaged backgrounds I had many disadvantages growing up (single parent home, one parent is immigrant but died by suicide, poverty, ect) and hope my lived experiences would count for something somewhere.

Thank you for your time and please excuse any grammar. It's 2am, my minds wandering, and this was typed up on my phone! Here is a fun fact - my first post here was ten years ago. It's fun to reflect on!

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Hello folks! I've reconsidered going back to school to pursue a career in medicine. My sister, who is an older nontraditional student, and just entered her second year of medical school reignited a long forgotten desire of mine to pursue medicine.

What I'm looking for is some insight from those who've been grinding though their adult responsibilities while pursuing a second career in medicine. I'd also love to get feedback about my "odds" of being considered outside of a MCAT score because we all know the emphasis placed upon that score.

A brief summary of my academic background. I did poorly my first few years of college. I was in pursuit of a strong social life and less of an academic one. It resulted in some deficiencies in my transcripts. However, I ended up with an undergrad gpa of 3.05 and roughly 2.9 in the sciences. I ended up getting two masters. One in public health and a second in social work. My GPA ended up as a 3.65. I worked two jobs all the way though graduate school (80 hour weeks were the norm unfortunately). I currently work as a clinical social worker in a level 1 trauma hospital, own a private practice and a start-up company doing nothing health related (growing gourmet mushrooms and micro greens) I've done some public policy research and been a board member for a few nonprofits. Basically what I'm getting at is I have a wealth of experience I don't want to belabor here

My understanding is that I would need to take the science classes because how long ago it was. What options should I consider moving forward? I know there are some schools that give individuals higher marks if they come from disadvantaged backgrounds I had many disadvantages growing up (single parent home, one parent is immigrant but died by suicide, poverty, ect) and hope my lived experiences would count for something somewhere.

Thank you for your time and please excuse any grammar. It's 2am, my minds wandering, and this was typed up on my phone! Here is a fact my first post here was ten years ago. It's fun to reflect on!

You and I started hanging around SDN almost in the same timeframe! I didn't make my account until I was almost done with my postbac, but I was a semi-regular lurker here starting in about 2009. Took me over 10 years to go from my traditional UG to medical school, and the path was convoluted, but I made it. You can make it too.

I'll address some of the main points in your post and ask a few questions of my own:

- So you screwed around academically as a young traditional college student and earned some bad grades a very long time ago, and now you're stuck with a low uGPA/sGPA. Tale as old as time. You can rebound from this with some academic repair, as adcoms understand that 2022 you is not the same as early-2010s you. You will be allowed to reinvent yourself.

- You said you need to retake some science classes, and you might, but can you share with me what medical school prerequisites you've taken and which ones you still have left to take? That will help us identify your best options going forward.

- Generally speaking, some schools have an expiration date on prereqs, but many don't. I got into several schools with certain prerequisites (English, social science) that were over 10 years old when I applied.

- Every single school I know will preferentially consider students who grew up with significant adversity/disadvantages. The applications directly ask whether you grew up low SES, first generation, or URM ("underrrepresented in medicine" cultural background). For other things that don't have a neat checkbox, you will be able to explain your circumstances in your personal statement and secondaries. The writing aspect of the application is very important for all applicants, but I'd say even more so for nontraditionals who have had a nonlinear path to medical school. You might start jotting down some thoughts/ideas/reflections about your journey now, and this can help you form your personal statement later on.

- How are your ECs coming along?

 

[PersianMeow]

You and I started hanging around SDN almost in the same timeframe! I didn't make my account until I was almost done with my postbac, but I was a semi-regular lurker here starting in about 2009. Took me over 10 years to go from my traditional UG to medical school, and the path was convoluted, but I made it. You can make it too.

I'll address some of the main points in your post and ask a few questions of my own:

- So you screwed around academically as a young traditional college student and earned some bad grades a very long time ago, and now you're stuck with a low uGPA/sGPA. Tale as old as time. You can rebound from this with some academic repair, as adcoms understand that 2022 you is not the same as early-2010s you. You will be allowed to reinvent yourself.

- You said you need to retake some science classes, and you might, but can you share with me what medical school prerequisites you've taken and which ones you still have left to take? That will help us identify your best options going forward.

- Generally speaking, some schools have an expiration date on prereqs, but many don't. I got into several schools with certain prerequisites (English, social science) that were over 10 years old when I applied.

- Every single school I know will preferentially consider students who grew up with significant adversity/disadvantages. The applications directly ask whether you grew up low SES, first generation, or URM ("underrrepresented in medicine" cultural background). For other things that don't have a neat checkbox, you will be able to explain your circumstances in your personal statement and secondaries. The writing aspect of the application is very important for all applicants, but I'd say even more so for nontraditionals who have had a nonlinear path to medical school. You might start jotting down some thoughts/ideas/reflections about your journey now, and this can help you form your personal statement later on.

- How are your ECs coming along?

Welcome to the decade club!

Let me answer your question regarding my coursework. I took biololgy, chemistry, and have graduate level coursework in epidemiology, biostatistics, and some UG related sciences (geology, computer science, and advanced mathematics). I did well (A's) in chemistry, C's in bio, and A/B's in the other coursework. I imagine my best course forward would be to complete the bio (again) and physics series + biochem. I imagine this would take me 1.5 years.

So this is a silly question but what are ECs?

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Welcome to the decade club!

Let me answer your question regarding my coursework. I took biololgy, chemistry, and have graduate level coursework in epidemiology, biostatistics, and some UG related sciences (geology, computer science, and advanced mathematics). I did well (A's) in chemistry, C's in bio, and A/B's in the other coursework. I imagine my best course forward would be to complete the bio (again) and physics series + biochem. I imagine this would take me 1.5 years.

So this is a silly question but what are ECs?

I think it makes sense to repeat bio as well at this point, it might just be easier to have the refresher even if hasn't technically expired.

If by chemistry you mean you have 1 year organic chemistry + lab and 1 year general chemistry + lab, then that's covered (and good grades, too). Then all that's outstanding is retaking your year of bio + lab, a year of physics + lab and biochem, as you're already aware.

I recommend purchasing a subscription to the Medical School Admissions Requirements database ASAP and getting a sense of what prerequisites are required for schools in your state/region. If your state/target schools require something random (e.g., some schools additionally require microbio, A&P, or calculus), it would be really helpful to know that upfront.

The graduate coursework is nice and will add interest to your application, but it isn't as heavily weighed in the application process as the prerequisite undergraduate coursework.

If you are able to earn a 4.0 (or as close to it as possible) in your outstanding prerequisites, this will go a very long way to repairing your sGPA and bumping up your uGPA. 1.5 years of coursework should be enough to demonstrate academic reinvention, assuming you earn strong MCAT score.

ECs = extracurriculars! Work, volunteering, hobbies, research, clinical experiences. Your work/professional experiences are going to be hugely beneficial to your application, and your mushroom company is actually a really interesting hook, but admissions committees still need to see other "standard" ECs for an application: physician shadowing, non-clinical volunteering/community service, and clinical experience.

If you haven't shadowed yet, I think it makes sense to do that first thing before enrolling in coursework. I always recommend shadowing a primary care physician for at least a week, as a majority of medical students end up matching into a primary care specialty. After seeing primary care in action, you can add on other specialties (e.g., psychiatry, surgery) if you want to see more facets of medicine.

 

[PersianMeow]

I think it makes sense to repeat bio as well at this point, it might just be easier to have the refresher even if hasn't technically expired.

If by chemistry you mean you have 1 year organic chemistry + lab and 1 year general chemistry + lab, then that's covered (and good grades, too). Then all that's outstanding is retaking your year of bio + lab, a year of physics + lab and biochem, as you're already aware.

I recommend purchasing a subscription to the Medical School Admissions Requirements database ASAP and getting a sense of what prerequisites are required for schools in your state/region. If your state/target schools require something random (e.g., some schools additionally require microbio, A&P, or calculus), it would be really helpful to know that upfront.

The graduate coursework is nice and will add interest to your application, but it isn't as heavily weighed in the application process as the prerequisite undergraduate coursework.

If you are able to earn a 4.0 (or as close to it as possible) in your outstanding prerequisites, this will go a very long way to repairing your sGPA and bumping up your uGPA. 1.5 years of coursework should be enough to demonstrate academic reinvention, assuming you earn strong MCAT score.

ECs = extracurriculars! Work, volunteering, hobbies, research, clinical experiences. Your work/professional experiences are going to be hugely beneficial to your application, and your mushroom company is actually a really interesting hook, but admissions committees still need to see other "standard" ECs for an application: physician shadowing, non-clinical volunteering/community service, and clinical experience.

If you haven't shadowed yet, I think it makes sense to do that first thing before enrolling in coursework. I always recommend shadowing a primary care physician for at least a week, as a majority of medical students end up matching into a primary care specialty. After seeing primary care in action, you can add on other specialties (e.g., psychiatry, surgery) if you want to see more facets of medicine.

Thanks for clarifying - I figured that's what EC meant but was not 100% sure. I feel solid about my EC & work history. Honestly, I don't even sweat over that piece. I am not sure I said it in my original post but I have a decade of volunteer experience. I do it because it's part of my own personal ethos. I know this sounds silly but I plan on only applying to schools that offer free, discounted, or are inexpensive (comparably) since I am older and do not want to be burdened with more debt. Getting my two master degrees were expensive. I worked full time while going to school full time and still feel poor LOL! If the ROI is not there re: medical school I can continue to help the community in other ways.

I'm not sure if I need to shadow TBH since I've worked in partnership with clinicians in various settings (OP, IP, Residential etc). Fortunately I have a good relationship with those I've worked with so if I needed to I could lean in and ask.

I was going to ask you - where are you in your programming? Also, congratualtions! It's hard work to shift gears and go to school again as an older student!

 

[SpoiledMilk]

There are boxes that need to be checked for all prospective medstudents. Shadowing is one of them. Don't discount that. Ask one or two of the clinicians you worked with (preferably primary care as Janet indicated) and get in 25-50 hours.

 

[PersianMeow]

There are boxes that need to be checked for all prospective medstudents. Shadowing is one of them. Don't discount that. Ask one or two of the clinicians you worked with (preferably primary care as Janet indicated) and get in 25-50 hours.

I feel pretty fortunate to have the access I do. I fundamentally struggle with these type of arbitrary check boxes. I recall during my MPH we looked at system issues that impacted the scarcity of physicians. To make a long and complex idea brief, one of the conclusions drawn was to protect a specific class (wages, access, prestige, etc). I imagine there are many intelligent and qualified individuals who would attend medical school if they were born into different circumstances. Anyways I digress, thank you for your feedback.

 

[SpoiledMilk]

Shadowing a physician is not an arbitrary type of check box. Medschools want applicants to understand what a doctor goes through in a typical day and whether you are willing to do it for the rest of your career. We want you to succeed and having down one of the elements of a medschool application will ensure you are one step closer to getting an offer.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Thanks for clarifying - I figured that's what EC meant but was not 100% sure. I feel solid about my EC & work history. Honestly, I don't even sweat over that piece. I am not sure I said it in my original post but I have a decade of volunteer experience. I do it because it's part of my own personal ethos. I know this sounds silly but I plan on only applying to schools that offer free, discounted, or are inexpensive (comparably) since I am older and do not want to be burdened with more debt. Getting my two master degrees were expensive. I worked full time while going to school full time and still feel poor LOL! If the ROI is not there re: medical school I can continue to help the community in other ways.

I'm not sure if I need to shadow TBH since I've worked in partnership with clinicians in various settings (OP, IP, Residential etc). Fortunately I have a good relationship with those I've worked with so if I needed to I could lean in and ask.

I was going to ask you - where are you in your programming? Also, congratualtions! It's hard work to shift gears and go to school again as an older student!

Great news about the community service, and that opens you up to a lot of the social justice focused/Jesuit programs where matriculants sometimes have hundreds if not thousands of hours in this category. I also expect you will be able to write beautifully about these experiences as well; it's usually apparent when someone deeply cares about their service and participates in it for its own sake.

Shadowing, as @DV-T said, is essentially required, no exceptions, unless you're doing something like scribing where you literally follow a physician around all day every day as your job. The rationale for this is that adcoms want to know that applicants have been exposed to the practice of medicine outside of their own healthcare or workplace. Whether it's true or not in your case, the assumption is that the side of medicine physicians show their patients and colleagues is not the same side of medicine that they show other doctors/medical students/prospective med students. Admissions committees need to be certain you've seen "behind the curtain" and they rely on your shadowing experiences to prove this.

The other problem with skipping any of the "checkboxes" is that it can result in your application being autoscreened out of consideration. While most medical schools state that they have holistic admissions policies, this is true only to a point. Many programs also get over 100 applicants per seat, and the admissions offices have to find a way to cull the herd. If you need to whittle down your 15,000 applications to a more manageable number, the easiest way to do that is by screening out applicants based on GPA/MCAT and whether they've fulfilled all the basic requirements of a medical school application. You don't want to be in a situation where a computer or low-level clerical employee decides your fate for you.

In other words, it's best just to play the game and jump through their hoops the best you can, as this maximizes your chance for an interview invitation.

As for me, I am halfway done! Time has flown by. While my clinical rotations officially start later this year, I've actually been regularly participating in "baby clinical" activities since I got Pfizered about year ago. I am excited to transition into the hospital/clinic full time.

I am not going to lie, it was a bit of a learning curve going back for my postbac after being out of school for ten years. Just when I had gotten the hang of my postbac work, I had to start medical school and develop a whole new learning strategy. The first few months of medical school were a little rocky at points. But the good news is that the preclinical (i.e., classroom learning) phase of my medical education actually got much easier over time, if you can believe that. My confidence took several hits along the way, but my percentages keep improving, so I think that's proof that I'm adjusting. Even if you hit rough patches, you will adjust too.

 

[PersianMeow]

I respectfully disagree. I would say, as with most licensed professionals, shadowing is not truly reflective of the work. To propose it has anything to due with longevity in the field is a stretch. It is a poor screening criteria for qualified candidates and there are numourous reasons why, some listed above. If I recall corrently there was a study published within the past 6 months about the rate of physicians leaving the field at four times the rate they once did. People change, policy change, the responsibility always shifts (often to the physician). and the systems they work in change. These play a larger role and if I had the bandwidth to do it today I would explore this topic further. Point being it is arbitrary because not everyone has access or ability to shadow. It's self selecting based off multiple factors I listed above and has been extensively researched.

 

[PersianMeow]

Great news about the community service, and that opens you up to a lot of the social justice focused/Jesuit programs where matriculants sometimes have hundreds if not thousands of hours in this category. I also expect you will be able to write beautifully about these experiences as well; it's usually apparent when someone deeply cares about their service and participates in it for its own sake.

Shadowing, as @DV-T said, is essentially required, no exceptions, unless you're doing something like scribing where you literally follow a physician around all day every day as your job. The rationale for this is that adcoms want to know that applicants have been exposed to the practice of medicine outside of their own healthcare or workplace. Whether it's true or not in your case, the assumption is that the side of medicine physicians show their patients and colleagues is not the same side of medicine that they show other doctors/medical students/prospective med students. Admissions committees need to be certain you've seen "behind the curtain" and they rely on your shadowing experiences to prove this.

The other problem with skipping any of the "checkboxes" is that it can result in your application being autoscreened out of consideration. While most medical schools state that they have holistic admissions policies, this is true only to a point. Many programs also get over 100 applicants per seat, and the admissions offices have to find a way to cull the herd. If you need to whittle down your 15,000 applications to a more manageable number, the easiest way to do that is by screening out applicants based on GPA/MCAT and whether they've fulfilled all the basic requirements of a medical school application. You don't want to be in a situation where a computer or low-level clerical employee decides your fate for you.

In other words, it's best just to play the game and jump through their hoops the best you can, as this maximizes your chance for an interview invitation.

As for me, I am halfway done! Time has flown by. While my clinical rotations officially start later this year, I've actually been regularly participating in "baby clinical" activities since I got Pfizered about year ago. I am excited to transition into the hospital/clinic full time.

I am not going to lie, it was a bit of a learning curve going back for my postbac after being out of school for ten years. Just when I had gotten the hang of my postbac work, I had to start medical school and develop a whole new learning strategy. The first few months of medical school were a little rocky at points. But the good news is that the preclinical (i.e., classroom learning) phase of my medical education actually got much easier over time, if you can believe that. My confidence took several hits along the way, but my percentages keep improving, so I think that's proof that I'm adjusting. Even if you hit rough patches, you will adjust too.

Thank you for sharing all of that. I think a lot of those pieces (shadowing, volunteering, etc), although I have it, can be really discriminatory practices. Some would say that it keeps the "white castle" up in the sky. I will circle back around later with some of the older and recent high quality research I've read about this/similar topics. It's not an issue for me fortunately. It's my strong sense of justice and desire to let the evidence lead me to my conclusions. There is that old saying, "repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth" which I think holds true about shadowing in regards specifically to admissions and longevity.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Thank you for sharing all of that. I think a lot of those pieces (shadowing, volunteering, etc), although I have it, can be really discriminatory practices. Some would say that it keeps the "white castle" up in the sky. I will circle back around later with some of the older and recent high quality research I've read about this/similar topics. It's not an issue for me fortunately. It's my strong sense of justice and desire to let the evidence lead me to my conclusions. There is that old saying, "repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth" which I think holds true about shadowing in regards specifically to admissions and longevity.

I mostly agree with you, but not about the shadowing. A reasonable person could argue that shadowing may not be a particularly useful activity if the quality of the experience is poor, but it's probably the EC that's most accessible to low SES applicants. Shadowing requires a very small amount of time/effort in the grand scheme of things. Clinical experience is somewhat accessible, too, since it's often paid work. But community service/volunteering is another animal, and I have a lot of empathy for students who state they are not in a position to perform unpaid labor/community service. It doesn't change the essentially mandatory nature of community service, but my heart goes out to low-SES premeds who struggle to get in these hours.

But really, it's the MCAT that keeps otherwise talented low-SES applicants out of medical school. The MCAT is typically the biggest hurdle for any applicant, and that barrier can be even higher for low income premeds.

Wealthier undergraduate institutions often have entire departments dedicated to premed advising and some even offer in-house MCAT prep; the random state commuter school where I did my postbac had no such resources. All premeds at my postbac school had to figure out everything on their own, and I unfortunately saw many make some pretty catastrophic MCAT preparation errors (e.g., not knowing the importance of practice tests, using outdated materials that were not appropriate for the new version of the MCAT, not learning the basic test taking "strategy" that they teach you in a formal prep course). As you're probably aware, an entire cottage industry has sprung up around third-party MCAT preparation. Kaplan, UWorld, etc. are truly excellent resources that really help you improve your scores, providing you have hundreds or thousands of dollars to access these materials.

Anyway, sorry to derail your thread with this side discussion. It's an interesting and necessary conversation, to be sure. And sadly, my observation is that medical school is actually getting more and more inaccessible to disadvantaged students as time goes on; they simply get crowded out by all the premeds who can afford to play the game at a very high level. The AAMC claim they're working on increasing low SES representation, but frankly, I don't see it.

 

[orthoPA81]

I’m an older non-trad medical student and former PA. I shared your frustration with shadowing hour requirements for application. I literally had zero hours of shadowing when I applied but had 7+ years of direct patient care experience as a physician assistant. I spoke with a couple programs (MD) regarding their shadowing requirement and they would not budge. No amount of rational justification would change their requirements.

I ended up applying to a DO program and they accepted me without ever asking for shadowing hours. I had no preference of MD vs DO so it was an easy choice for me.

If you refuse to get shadowing hours you will likely be limited in your options.

 

[PersianMeow]

I mostly agree with you, but not about the shadowing. A reasonable person could argue that shadowing may not be a particularly useful activity if the quality of the experience is poor, but it's probably the EC that's most accessible to low SES applicants. Shadowing requires a very small amount of time/effort in the grand scheme of things. Clinical experience is somewhat accessible, too, since it's often paid work. But community service/volunteering is another animal, and I have a lot of empathy for students who state they are not in a position to perform unpaid labor/community service. It doesn't change the essentially mandatory nature of community service, but my heart goes out to low-SES premeds who struggle to get in these hours.

But really, it's the MCAT that keeps otherwise talented low-SES applicants out of medical school. The MCAT is typically the biggest hurdle for any applicant, and that barrier can be even higher for low income premeds.

Wealthier undergraduate institutions often have entire departments dedicated to premed advising and some even offer in-house MCAT prep; the random state commuter school where I did my postbac had no such resources. All premeds at my postbac school had to figure out everything on their own, and I unfortunately saw many make some pretty catastrophic MCAT preparation errors (e.g., not knowing the importance of practice tests, using outdated materials that were not appropriate for the new version of the MCAT, not learning the basic test taking "strategy" that they teach you in a formal prep course). As you're probably aware, an entire cottage industry has sprung up around third-party MCAT preparation. Kaplan, UWorld, etc. are truly excellent resources that really help you improve your scores, providing you have hundreds or thousands of dollars to access these materials.

Anyway, sorry to derail your thread with this side discussion. It's an interesting and necessary conversation, to be sure. And sadly, my observation is that medical school is actually getting more and more inaccessible to disadvantaged students as time goes on; they simply get crowded out by all the premeds who can afford to play the game at a very high level. The AAMC claim they're working on increasing low SES representation, but frankly, I don't see it.

You are spot on and I believe we share the same sentiment. It may be something worth proposing as a research topic since there is little evidence supporting current practices outside of the standard scores and even then we know how that is greatly impacted by SES. In an ideal world there would be free study materials or at least low costs ones for students. We saddle so much debt and responsibility on most licensed individuals that it's a form of indentured servitude. I think one challenge having a MPH/MSW background is I tend to be outspoken LOL!!!

If you have time are interested in more reading (I know you are probably swamped but hey why not!) this is what I have found so far. I do find it strange that a profession held in high esteem because the layperson believes they follow the best evidence/practices to ensure quality physicians come out tends to lack strong evidence in some of their own decision making! Don't get me wrong there are still great physicians that come out of medical school here but when we compare health outcomes to OCED date it makes less and less sense why we have our system in place not.

Physician shadowing: a review of the literature and proposal for guidelines - PubMed

The few shadowing programs described in the literature were heterogeneous and often involved other activities. Further research is warranted; objective outcomes measures would be useful. The authors propose developing guidelines and introducing a code of conduct for premedical students, to...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Anyways, I am excited to hear more about your journey as it takes place and thanks for taking the time to respond and have a meaningful discourse with me!

 

[PersianMeow]

I’m an older non-trad medical student and former PA. I shared your frustration with shadowing hour requirements for application. I literally had zero hours of shadowing when I applied but had 7+ years of direct patient care experience as a physician assistant. I spoke with a couple programs (MD) regarding their shadowing requirement and they would not budge. No amount of rational justification would change their requirements.

I ended up applying to a DO program and they accepted me without ever asking for shadowing hours. I had no preference of MD vs DO so it was an easy choice for me.

If you refuse to get shadowing hours you will likely be limited in your options.

If I commit I would do whatever is required but still call out the poor practice. However, some of the best physicians I know are DOs and I would not be disspointed if I got into a DO school/. Congrats on getting into the school. If you are still attending I hope it's going well!

 

[Sn00pygrrl]

I’m an older non-trad medical student and former PA. I shared your frustration with shadowing hour requirements for application. I literally had zero hours of shadowing when I applied but had 7+ years of direct patient care experience as a physician assistant. I spoke with a couple programs (MD) regarding their shadowing requirement and they would not budge. No amount of rational justification would change their requirements.

I ended up applying to a DO program and they accepted me without ever asking for shadowing hours. I had no preference of MD vs DO so it was an easy choice for me.

If you refuse to get shadowing hours you will likely be limited in your options.

Completely agree. I'm an NP with 8 years of experience in a unique role where I both consult for physicians and share patient visits with them. There is literally nothing I will get out of shadowing that I don't already know about the "day to day life of a physician," but since I have to check the box, I'm going to try to get a few days of shadowing with an interesting primary care model in my health system since it's directly relevant to my future career interests. But I agree that those of us who have extensive (i.e. >10,000 hours) direct patient care experience working side by side with docs, trainees, other members of the team) the idea that I would have no idea what a physician did all day without shadowing is a bit absurd.