Thanks for the info
Alliant PsyD SF
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A girl I know in high school went to Alliant and is licensed. She publishes articles regularly and I think she works for Kaiser Permanente (sp?) Yes it is expensive and yes the name may close some doors, but I think it's very likely you can attend Alliant and obtain an apa accredited internship, especially if you are not location bound. The school is very expensive and I have heard the students have to find their own practicum sites, which I imagine would be extremely expensive. If you have the money and are ok with the potential limitations then maybe it's the right choice for you. Just make and informed decision bc there is a reason this topic incites such strong reactions
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It's tough love. You'll have to get used to if you're serious about going to grad school and being a clinician, as people will often not bend over backwards to be nice to you. One of the most important skills to learn is to pay attention to the message being conveyed, not the way it is being delivered, and try to gain something from this. You'll have plenty of instructors, faculty, practicum supervisors, etc. (not to mention patients) who will be blunt, condescending, or otherwise say things manners that you may perceive to be rude or snarky. You need to be resilient and try to understand what is being conveyed instead of focusing on the delivery.
In this case, Erg is telling you that going to a doctoral program of any quality for the cache of the degree and the letters after your name is a terrible idea. Your goals should dictate what degree you pursue, not the other way around. Attending an expensive doctoral program of questionable quality is even more dubious.
You've not really articulated any reasons that a doctoral degree is necessary. The actual, practicing psychologists here (who are tenured faculty, training directors, or successful clinicians) have rebutted those reasons you have articulated.
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An n=1 situation is not a great basis for which to make career decisions.
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I'm not saying that it is. It's definitely not an ideal choice, but I also think it's definitely possible to become a licensed psychologist if OP decided to attend Alliant
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This isn’t the first time this idea has been stated but this was the most recent post, hence why I am quoting it and not because @LadyHalcyon said it. My intent is NOT to be condescending or attack but to respond to that kind of statement.
If someone is choosing to work with the public and provide direct clinical services, then the idea of attending a program because it’s the “right choice” for him/ her regardless of training quality, is IMO, quite frankly, bull****. As mental health providers, whether it is masters or doctoral level, it is our ethical duty to provide the most competent, appropriate care to individuals who are seeking help for a variety of problems. Some of those problems could be “minor” adjustment issues but others can be quite serious if not life-endangering. Suicide, command hallucinations, mania that leads to high risk behaviors, etc etc. It is not ok for clients to be treated by clinicians who are poorly trained and/or incompetent. There are crap doctoral and crap masters programs, and it is very frustrating to get a client whose former clinician did more harm than good. If an applicant has the choice between two programs that train equally well and chooses the more expensive program, good for them! Their money, their life. But if the option is pay for crappy training or choose another path/career, why should “pay for crappy training” even be encouraged? I don’t understand the mindset of “do what’s best for you to work in this field” when many (not all) of the clients/consumers are vulnerable or at a power imbalance. When I go to a doctor because I’m not feeling well, I expect to get a doctor that is trained to address my symptoms, and not herded through training that limits that doctor’s ability to diagnose and treat me. Mental health should be no different.
Just saying you should probably be concerned about where their grads specifically usually end up and investigate what the quality of life would be in that kind of a situation.
Why do you consider the training to be bad quality? I understand that it's expensive but what makes you say that the quality of education is bad? The professors have PhD's from accredited universities. So now you're bashing the faculty and their ability to teach? What makes your training any better than theirs?
Like i said earlier, many work at Kaiser and local hospitals. And how can I go about asking them these questions? Can I just randomly email someone on linkedin that went to Alliant and is working at Kaiser? I would so much rather ask them than random people on here, considering they have been to alliant and are now employed and doing what I hope to one day do.
There's definitely a lot of "tough love" on this forum. With that being said, I just want to walk through what you stated (and forgive me if I have misinterpreted anything). You have a low undergrad GPA due to an original pursuit of pre-med and only recently switching to psychology. You want to be a therapist and have been working in psych-adjacent work for about a semester or so, while simultaneously applying to PsyDs in a very geographically limited region. Psych is, unfortunately, one of those fields that may require movement, sometimes across all stages of your training. You've listed 3 schools, so I'm assuming those are the only three you applied to: PGSP, Wright, and Alliant. Two out of those three did not grant you an interview, but Alliant did. You reported that you have a poor GPA and a limited amount of experience. The majority of people applying to doctoral programs (PsyDs included) have spent years doing research and/or working/volunteering in a relevant setting. Even those coming straight from undergrad have spent multiple years building up their CV to be competitive. I understand the urge to just get right in. However, taking a gap year to grow your CV and make yourself more competitive has the potential of getting you into a better program. Your GPA can be mitigated by a high GRE, great post-bacc experience, etc. Alliant isn't going anywhere (although Argosy was a mainstay in the PsyD field for a bit and we see how that's going). If you take a year and work on your CV and you don't get into PGSP, Wright, or wherever, Alliant will still be there as another school you can apply to. The thing about schools that don't have very strict admission requirements is exactly that. It makes sense to want to just jump right into the next program. However, taking that time and separating yourself from school and really figuring out your goals can be very beneficial for you as a clinician. I took a few years before going back to school, and it was the best thing I could have done. I got more exposure working with populations I am interested in, and I was able to really zero in on what I want to do, which makes planning out practicum placements and ideal internship sites to strive for that much more manageable. Plus, there is something to be said about the added maturity. And trust me, I was fully supporting myself at 18 in an expensive metro area while simultaneously going to school full time, so I was pretty mature as is, but I still significantly matured during my brief stint away from school.
Can you achieve the very specific goals you have at the moment by getting a degree from Alliant? Sure. But, you are also potentially closing a lot of doors. The rest of your life is going to be a long time. A lot of things can change in that time. The more flexible you can be, the better off you will be.
People aren't necessarily trying to dissuade you from getting a PsyD. However, if the choice is PsyD from a program with a relatively sketchy track record or a masters from a more rigorous program, the master's is the better idea. This is especially true given the fact that the goals you have reported to us can be easily accomplished as masters level practitioner. That and the masters does not preclude you from getting a doctorate later on (and can definitely help to mitigate your undergrad GPA). Pursuing a license-eligible masters can get you to your goal faster, and if you decide that you want to go for the doctorate, you still can. And honestly, the average lay-person can't tell you the difference between a masters level counselor, clinical social worker, psychologist, or even psychiatrist. They are all therapists to a significant portion of the population. You're spending the extra time and money in school for very little prestige in the eyes of your clients.
The choice is ultimately yours. However, when a full quarter of the graduates from a PsyD program are not licensed, that is a scary sign. The reason Erg brought up the Lake Wobegone effect is because it's highly likely that all or most of those 114 people who should be license eligible and are not licensed also believed they would not be part of that statistic. That is why people jump on these programs so quickly.
Can you achieve the very specific goals you have at the moment by getting a degree from Alliant? Sure. But, you are also potentially closing a lot of doors. The rest of your life is going to be a long time. A lot of things can change in that time. The more flexible you can be, the better off you will be.
People aren't necessarily trying to dissuade you from getting a PsyD. However, if the choice is PsyD from a program with a relatively sketchy track record or a masters from a more rigorous program, the master's is the better idea. This is especially true given the fact that the goals you have reported to us can be easily accomplished as masters level practitioner. That and the masters does not preclude you from getting a doctorate later on (and can definitely help to mitigate your undergrad GPA). Pursuing a license-eligible masters can get you to your goal faster, and if you decide that you want to go for the doctorate, you still can. And honestly, the average lay-person can't tell you the difference between a masters level counselor, clinical social worker, psychologist, or even psychiatrist. They are all therapists to a significant portion of the population. You're spending the extra time and money in school for very little prestige in the eyes of your clients.
The choice is ultimately yours. However, when a full quarter of the graduates from a PsyD program are not licensed, that is a scary sign. The reason Erg brought up the Lake Wobegone effect is because it's highly likely that all or most of those 114 people who should be license eligible and are not licensed also believed they would not be part of that statistic. That is why people jump on these programs so quickly.
Also just wanted to add the EPPP pass rates. This is the national exam everyone must take to get licensed and the 2017 numbers are out. Only 63.73% of Alliant-SF PsyD grads who sat the exam in 2017 passed. When we use the law of parsimony, the simplest explanation is that the program did not prepare a significant portion of their students to pass the national exam.
If you look at absolutely nothing else (cost, time to completion, etc.), you need to look at this. If someone doesn't pass the EPPP (they have multiple chances but states have specific rules about how many and how often), they cannot be licensed.
https://www.asppb.net/resource/resmgr/eppp_/2017_Doctoral_Report.pdf
If you look at absolutely nothing else (cost, time to completion, etc.), you need to look at this. If someone doesn't pass the EPPP (they have multiple chances but states have specific rules about how many and how often), they cannot be licensed.
https://www.asppb.net/resource/resmgr/eppp_/2017_Doctoral_Report.pdf
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If you wanted to make pancakes, but the baking powder was shoved in the back of the cabinet that you almost forgot it was there until you realized it expired 3 years ago, and the milk was sour, would the pancakes still turn out ok? Probably not, and I wouldn’t want to taste test those bad boys either
If you have 10-15 students in a practicum class that only lasts 75 or 150 minutes, how much time will you really get to discuss each of your clients? When your psychopathology class has 15-30+ students in it (because they accept 40+ each year into the program), how much is a professor going to be able to clarify your questions? Outcomes are often tied to training quality at the Graduate level. Programs with high cohort numbers can have difficulty providing the individual attention needed to ensure competent training.
For interview tips:
1. Know your reasons for applying to clinical psychology and be able to articulate it. “Because everyone in my family has a doctorate, I want a doctorate, and my dad is willing to pay” probably will not be received favorably by faculty. What do you see yourself doing with your degree, and how will that degree help you meet your goals?
2. Where do students do practicum training? Is there an in-house clinic supervised by faculty? Does the program have placement agreements with different training sites? Are there enough sites for all students to get placed? How do students get their placement? Do they seek it out themselves, is there an interview process, etc?
3. How are students evaluated throughout the program? How are advisors determined?
4. Ask current students share they like and what they would change about their program. Pay attention to their answers.
thanks for the info! and for providing some interview tips. Means a lot!!!If you wanted to make pancakes, but the baking powder was shoved in the back of the cabinet that you almost forgot it was there until you realized it expired 3 years ago, and the milk was sour, would the pancakes still turn out ok? Probably not, and I wouldn’t want to taste test those bad boys either
If you have 10-15 students in a practicum class that only lasts 75 or 150 minutes, how much time will you really get to discuss each of your clients? When your psychopathology class has 15-30+ students in it (because they accept 40+ each year into the program), how much is a professor going to be able to clarify your questions? Outcomes are often tied to training quality at the Graduate level. Programs with high cohort numbers can have difficulty providing the individual attention needed to ensure competent training.
For interview tips:
1. Know your reasons for applying to clinical psychology and be able to articulate it. “Because everyone in my family has a doctorate, I want a doctorate, and my dad is willing to pay” probably will not be received favorably by faculty. What do you see yourself doing with your degree, and how will that degree help you meet your goals?
2. Where do students do practicum training? Is there an in-house clinic supervised by faculty? Does the program have placement agreements with different training sites? Are there enough sites for all students to get placed? How do students get their placement? Do they seek it out themselves, is there an interview process, etc?
3. How are students evaluated throughout the program? How are advisors determined?
4. Ask current students share they like and what they would change about their program. Pay attention to their answers.
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You completely misunderstood what I wrote.
Firstly, when I say something is "necessary" I mean it in the most literal terms. You need a degree and license to be a provider of mental health services in the US. You need a doctorate to do neuropsychological assessment, as many of the neuropsychologists here have. So, when I talk about how you haven't articulated a need for a doctorate, I'm saying that you haven't noted any specific goals for which you would need a doctorate.
Secondly, it's not simply that Alliant "is not everyones top pick [sic]," it's that the program provides poor quality training, which is reflected in its outcome statistics. As MAClinician aptly pointed out, these are real people's lives hanging in the balance. The public needs to be protected from poorly trained providers.
Thirdly, no one is doubting or ridiculing your drive to help people. They are telling you the realities of the field and what it is actually like to be a psychologist. It doesn't really matter how much you try to "overcome any adversity" if you don't match to an accredited internship, because you attended a terrible grad program. If you don't match, you are barred from many entire classes of employers (e.g., the VA, AMCs) and this list of employers who require accredited internships grows by the year. Once you're done, you can't change what grad program you attended or what internship you completed.
Let's go step-by-step:
The outcome statistics, which were already discussed at the beginning of this thread. The match rate is 67% and their licensure rate is 74%.
https://p.widencdn.net/lr7izb/2017-SF-PsyD-C26D
This is terrible in the current internship environment. For reference, my grad program has had a 100% match rate for at least the past decade.
Accreditation is an incredibly low bar. It's literally the lowest requirements for a program, not a badge of honor. For these people specifically, getting a tenured faculty job in a clinical program is incredibly difficult, but Alliant SF and similar programs are going to be significantly less competitive than R1s or R2s.
Regardless, it doesn't really matter, because you're not proposing to attend the universities they did.
Well, the "bashing" is based on the outcome statistics. There's evidence that students from their program are unprepared for internship and licensure. Since it's their job to prepare students for internship and licensure, the failures of their students are at least partially their responsibility. Some of the variance in outcomes is surely due to the poor quality control in admissions, but that's kind of their fault as well.
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Alright, now that everything is settled and all are happy, let's go out for pancakes! 
Thanks for the info! i am hearing what you all are saying. Maybe I will use the Alliant interview as practice for future interviews. And hopefully I get an interview from Wright lol
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If only we could get readers/posters to read the “Doctoral applicants please read first” thread before they post
Alright, now that everything is settled and all are happy, let's go out for pancakes!
Lol. I always wondered how people got into arguments so quickly on here. Now i know... 😳
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@pkg1234 , I wanted to say that I really appreciate your willingness to listen and change your views in response to new information being presented: it shows an admirable level of maturity and flexibility that many unfortunately lack, especially when it comes to this particular topic (cognitive dissonance and all), so kudos!
I think it’s easy for applicants to look at the honestly shockingly low admission rates to good quality programs and just go “welp, if I want this, I guess I need to go to one of these other programs, and just hope the odds work out in my favor.” Heck, I did that exact thing myself 10 years ago! But people can make themselves competitive for good quality programs more efficiently than it first appears, as others have advised you. Also, I just want to note that a reputable PsyD program and a balanced PhD program will likely have about the same level of research expectations, and that many students in balanced PhD programs have essentially zero interest in research careers and do fine.
I think it’s easy for applicants to look at the honestly shockingly low admission rates to good quality programs and just go “welp, if I want this, I guess I need to go to one of these other programs, and just hope the odds work out in my favor.” Heck, I did that exact thing myself 10 years ago! But people can make themselves competitive for good quality programs more efficiently than it first appears, as others have advised you. Also, I just want to note that a reputable PsyD program and a balanced PhD program will likely have about the same level of research expectations, and that many students in balanced PhD programs have essentially zero interest in research careers and do fine.
Thanks for this. I totally appreciate everyone's inputs. Just that license plate comment got me a little upset in the moment. I understand where everyone is coming from, and I genuinely do appreciate it. At the end of the day, all of these comments are here to help me and provide me with the most information before I make such a huge, life changing decision. I also appreciate that you were able to get to your point without being condescending. Many people on this thread were extremely helpful. Others had great intentions and not the greatest delivery. Either way, i appreciate you all and the information you provided me with.
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You are assuming the quality of training at Alliant is piss poor. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Their stats aren't amazing but they also aren't abysmal. Maybe I missed a reply, but I have yet to hear concrete examples in this thread from people who attended Alliant or work regularly with graduates from Alliant. In fact, I seem to recall one reply saying they respect one of their colleagues who graduated from Alliant. I know one graduate who seems to be doing well professionally speaking, but I don't interact with her regularly so my observations are from a distance. Maybe the training at Alliant has gone downhill and was better before. In regards to online schools like Capella University I'm 100% on board with what you are saying.
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Just remember that this advice came from someone who is motivated to have you stay in a position where you are not competitive for a reputable PsyD program. Strong training programs have limited spots that they will fill one way or another (i.e. they get paid the same amount either way), whereas predatory programs admit as many people as possible to make the most money. Why would they want you to educate yourself out of their customer base?
Your situation is a perfect example of when getting an MA in psychology makes sense as a next step toward doctoral work. You switched to a psych major too late to build up any research experience or probably forge strong relationships with professors, and your late switch from pre-med means your GPA is too low. A psych MA is a fantastic solution to all of those things and could make you a quite competitive candidate for reputable programs.
Or if you went and got an MSW then you'd have demonstrated your academic chops while also having a path to clinical licensure. You'd be competitive for good doctoral programs, or could choose to just keep practicing if you've ended up in a setting you like.
Whereas if you work another year or two, you'll continue to have a low GPA , no research experience, and no path toward licensed clinical work... which will close all other doors except their program... how convenient.
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Another thing to consider in the doctorate vs MA-practitioner debate:
One mentor explained to me that getting your doctorate means becoming a producer, rather than a consumer, of scientific knowledge. Even if your ultimate goal is clinical work with a PsyD (a practioner-scholar model rather than the PhD's scientist-practioner or clinical-scientist model), it's inherent to this role to be a critical analyst of research data, not just someone who "follows recommended guidelines". So you need to know how to conduct research in order to deliver care with this level of sophistication, even if you're not going to continue producing research.
This is why physicians need to know chemistry; they need to understand why and how treatments work as they do, not just what meds to prescribe for which diagnoses. This is also why psychologists maintain dibs on assessment; you need a comprehensive stats/research background to responsibly draw clinical interpretations from structured data, and other mental health fields don't have that. Even for just diagnosing and treating, there are times when people will refer to a psychologist over an MA-level practitioner, for example for extremely complex or treatment-resistant cases, for the reason that they want that critical, research-informed perspective on a case, when run-of-the-mill, treatment-as-usual methods aren't cutting it.
So, it's fine to not want to do research as your day job.* But it's mandatory to like and appreciate research methods/stats. So I am curious, when you say that you dropped pre-med because the chemistry and bio wasn't your thing, can you see yourself getting enthusiastic about research methods and statistics in the social sciences? If yes, then a doctorate could definitely be for you. But if you are one of those people who are "allergic to research" and just wants to talk to people all day, then maybe an MA practitioner route really is more suitable.
*(Like myself, for example: I have a Ph.D. and worked in clinical research for several years before grad school. LOVE stats and actual research tasks. But, I do not like the administrative realities of having a research career (constantly re-justifying one's existence in the grant-funding rat race), so right now I'm doing just clinical work. But my love of research leaks from my pores in every clinical contact, and I do very different therapy compared to someone without that background.)
One mentor explained to me that getting your doctorate means becoming a producer, rather than a consumer, of scientific knowledge. Even if your ultimate goal is clinical work with a PsyD (a practioner-scholar model rather than the PhD's scientist-practioner or clinical-scientist model), it's inherent to this role to be a critical analyst of research data, not just someone who "follows recommended guidelines". So you need to know how to conduct research in order to deliver care with this level of sophistication, even if you're not going to continue producing research.
This is why physicians need to know chemistry; they need to understand why and how treatments work as they do, not just what meds to prescribe for which diagnoses. This is also why psychologists maintain dibs on assessment; you need a comprehensive stats/research background to responsibly draw clinical interpretations from structured data, and other mental health fields don't have that. Even for just diagnosing and treating, there are times when people will refer to a psychologist over an MA-level practitioner, for example for extremely complex or treatment-resistant cases, for the reason that they want that critical, research-informed perspective on a case, when run-of-the-mill, treatment-as-usual methods aren't cutting it.
So, it's fine to not want to do research as your day job.* But it's mandatory to like and appreciate research methods/stats. So I am curious, when you say that you dropped pre-med because the chemistry and bio wasn't your thing, can you see yourself getting enthusiastic about research methods and statistics in the social sciences? If yes, then a doctorate could definitely be for you. But if you are one of those people who are "allergic to research" and just wants to talk to people all day, then maybe an MA practitioner route really is more suitable.
*(Like myself, for example: I have a Ph.D. and worked in clinical research for several years before grad school. LOVE stats and actual research tasks. But, I do not like the administrative realities of having a research career (constantly re-justifying one's existence in the grant-funding rat race), so right now I'm doing just clinical work. But my love of research leaks from my pores in every clinical contact, and I do very different therapy compared to someone without that background.)
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Did you apply to Palo Alto University? If money isn't an option then and you are in the Bay area then I would suggest there. Not that the program doesn't have many faults (high tuition, large cohort), their apa accredited internship match rate is better than Alliant.
Also, PGSP psyd program has good match rates. Also very expensive. Interestingly, it seems their cohorts aren't as large.
Also, PGSP psyd program has good match rates. Also very expensive. Interestingly, it seems their cohorts aren't as large.
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Actually...
Yeah, OP, if money is actually not a concern, you want to stay in the Bay Area, and you don't want to do the masters route, Palo Alto is VASTLY superior to any Alliant.
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As a point of clarification, I think Palo Alto University actually is PGSP, the latter of which is now known as the PGSP-Stanford Consortium.
Edit: Well, technically, I think PGSP-Stanford is one degree program in PAU, the other (for psychology) being their Ph.D. program. So in that sense, if by referring to both Palo Alto University and PGSP you were differentiating their Ph.D. and Psy.D. programs, my clarification is a bit superfluous.
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I truly do not mean to be condescending (maybe dark humor?), however HONEST self-reflection is key to life, career, and overall health/well-being.
I went through this recently in regard to MY career...and our family's personal financial situation (I am not the best businesses-man or record keeper). Trust me, am equally as blunt to patients (I still do some some direct work/intervention, but not much). And that is......OK. Quality psychotherapy does not require interacting in a stereotypically supportive manner all the time. Truth bombs can also be therapeutic. Moreover, asking for educational/career advice is not therapy/counseling, and one should not expect that psychologists will/should respond as if they are in a psychotherapy session or otherwise within a patient encounter.
Look, "Because I want to/want one" is "vanity." Fashion over Function, if you will. Your vanity is not helpful/healthy for your patients (or for you actually..if you want to be an empiricist regarding healthy personality functioning). You want to help people, and be good at it. Fine. Do it. But this is not a justifiable reason to attend a poor training program in the name of just getting it/getting it done. All your stated goals, so far, can be addressed with a masters degree.
If you were applying to decent programs and showed at least some kind of legitimate interest/motivation for engaging in a clinical science or public health career (despite your reported undergrad performance), we would be having a different conversation.
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Me too, and it really informed my opinion of the school. The few I've met who are okay usually avoid talking about graduate school experiences in social gatherings of psychologists, and end up having to defend their choice of program when people inevitably ask why on earth they went to that school. I have never once heard any of them argue that the reputation is ill-deserved, only that they were able to scrap together decent training despite the program's significant limitations.
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This also counters one posters comments a few comments back. I believe it was @LadyHalcyon.
Several posters on here have careers (or part-time side gigs) doing IME, disability, or insurance work (i.e., Medical Necessity/Quality Assurance/Utilization Review/Population Health Metrics). I am one as well. The prevailing observation is that these people make us money/justify salaries via their poor practice patterns. I don't have any nice way to say it other than that, sorry. Utilization and cost control oversight is needed for any health service delivery system of course, but blatantly poor/substandard practice patterns only reinforce the need/benefit for this service.
No, of course they aren't all from Alliant. But there are many more professional school peeps than not in this group.
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I would have applied, but being that my GPA is not at the 3.0, I knew they would not accept me this year. I have heard really great things about the program, and had I gotten over a 3.0 GPA, it would have been my first choice. I really messed up during my undergrad and now i'm suffering the consequences.
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It seems the Palo alto PhD program is not as competitive as the psyd program. Maybe take a gap year to buff up your CV and apply next year?
Well, I appreciate you coming back to the thread to apologize. At least I believe that's what this was? Although I don't get why you think I have no "legitimate interest/motivation for engaging in a clinical science or public health career" as you stated. There are far more options out there that would earn me prestige if it was all for "vanity" as you call it. I have experience working in the field. Even though is it entry level work, it is extremely rewarding and I want to dedicate my life to working with others and helping them as best as I can. Again, I find myself having to prove to you that I want to become a Psychologist, and I really hate that. I appreciate the info you have given me, but please refrain from making judgments on what my interests are or why I want to pursue becoming a Psychologist. It is quite irritating to have to continuously justify myself and my goals to you.
I might do that depending on how things turn out (aka depending on if I get into Wright) lol
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I think you are making this too personal.
If someone tells me they want to be a mechanical engineer and I ask them what they want to do for a living.... and they tell me they want to do HVAC...I would tell them to go to ITT tech and have a ball. I would not expect that they would take offense to this advice. It's just real, real, son.....
You have indicated a desire for a second-order relevance position/career (this is NOT meant as a denigration or insult) and have taken offense as to how to most efficiently accomplish/purse this. See below....
http://meehl.umn.edu/sites/g/files/pua1696/f/092secondorderrelevance.pdf
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Honestly, I just don't like the way you word things, no matter how real you think it may be, son. Perhaps I am taking it too personally. I'm just giving you my take on it. Like i said, you give some great info, you just have a way of wording what would otherwise be good information in a terrible way (in my opinion). Maybe you can work on being a little kinder and more sensitive when you're giving advice to people who are already under a lot of stress and just want some information from professionals in the field. I'm sure you were in my shoes at one point (probably without the bad grades lol) so I would appreciate if you could think about the way your words may affect others (even if you don't mean to be a jerk). Also, you basically told me that I seem to have no legitimate reason to want to do clinical work. You didn't say for a Psyd, you said clinical work/public health. Does an MA not fall under that category? That is why I found offense in what you said.
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This is the interwebs, not a therapy room. You don't like "the way I word things?!" Your first supervisor may ask you what the **** you were thinking/doing when they watch your tapes. Some of your first patients may try to grope you because they think you are little more than a object. You need to develop some context of what you will be getting into here.
Anyways....I respect the desire to be all that you can be. I do. But, you have to reconcile that with life and reality at some point. Psychology, at the doctoral practice level, is about much much more than doing therapy and helping people. I, frankly, want to see a little more narcissistic drive than that in my doctoral students. Otherwise, I would suggest that that they be terminal MA/MS students.
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Except you know what the difference is? YOU ARE NOT MY BOSS. You are not my teacher, you are not a colleague, and you are not a patient. I really don't have to take your rude bs that you have to say. I don't understand why you keep trying to justify your dingus behavior as "that's the way the field is going to be". This is an online forum, not my job. Maybe you talk to people you work with like this, but you need to control yourself when you're talking to others and stop blaming it on the field. Take ownership of your jaded attitude and stop blaming other factors for your messed up attitude.
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As others have mentioned, this seems to be a common theme; students asking questions and then feeling attacked by the tone and aggressive nature of many responders
Who was taking bets on how many more posts this thread has before the mods lock it?
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I'm sorry, but I don't follow. Of course I'm not your "boss" and of course I am not telling you what to do.
This is an online forum where students are advised by elders in the field (hence the title "Student-Doctor Network") based on the realities of the world and the job market within this field. Nothing more, nothing less. I am thus advising you, based on my experience and expertise within the field.
I am advising you on the degree (and career to a lesser extent) that suits what you have expressed thus far based on your posts/statements--which is that you want to be a therapist with kiddos and adolescents at Kaiser. This does not necessitate a Psy.D (or Ph.D.) from a institution of ill repute that your parents would have to pay 200 Grand for.
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It's quite sad that we come on here asking a question and are then attacked back with that aggressive tone. So much for helping support and foster future doctors. Seems like this place is full of jaded dinguses (well, in this case one in particular) who have nothing nice or encouraging to say to people who are just starting out and looking for advice.
Like i said, I appreciate the advice portion of your posts, but I don't appreciate you throwing your own personal judgments in about how legitimate my interest/motivation for engaging in a clinical science or public health career are in your eyes. You told me that I should pursue a masters instead, and I think that is sound advice. However, I don't get how you can tell me that I should look into the MA, then come and hit me with some bs about how illegitimate you find my interest/motivation for engaging in a clinical science or public health career to be. Why even advise me to get my MA in that case then?
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I apologize, as I think this is a misunderstanding.
By Clinical Science, I mean the following as an example: Clinical Science | UC Psych
If that's not what you want to do, that's fine (not what I want to do either). But that is the ultimate doctorate level performance template for Clinical Psychology.
You have NOT expressed anything close to what this does/is. You have also NOT expressed any interest in a scientist-practitioner career. You have also NOT expressed any interest in psychometric theory, empirically-based treatment methods/methodology, training, teaching, or behavioral health administration/behavioral health business administration. Thus, I, and many others on this SDN thread have advised you to pursue a masters degree so that you can pursue your presumed passion for therapy and intervention work.
By Public Health, I suppose I meant the following: MBA/MPH. Often in addition to a MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
Again, you have consistently indicated a desire for a career and daily routine that does NOT require as much education, nor as money, as what s Psy.D. would cost you/your parents. We have thus aggressively advised you against this choice. For your sake. For the field's sake. For our parents (monetary) sake.
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I don't want to seem ungrateful or unappreciative. I really do appreciate the advice and the fact that you want to help me by making me aware of Alliant and it's downfalls. I'm also sorry if you think I take your words too personally. I am in a really vulnerable place right now, i'm 22 years old, about to graduate, and just confused on how to reach my goals. I understand that life will be hard and I will deal with a lot of adversity in the field. And I will use this time to prepare myself mentally for those challenges. But at this current moment of my life, I am just a little more sensitive to those comments questioning the legitimacy behind my goals. The comments made by respected and established doctors on SDN mean a lot to me, and some of the blunt statements you made just irritated me. I don't want to justify myself. I know what I want, and I will make it happen. And maybe that will happen by me getting my masters first and then re applying. I just have to see how things go. Nonetheless, thanks for the advice and info.
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I just want to say that I am very impressed by your maturity, perspective, and openness. I have long been frustrated by the cynical nastiness in the overall tone on this board, which is why I have so infrequently posted or felt like being here over the years. Most of the time, when people in your position ask the types of questions you have been asking, the ensuing conversation reveals some pretty shocking entitlement on the part of the prospective student, which only serves to justify the cold, mean-spirited comments by the “old guard” around here. This isn’t the case with you, and it really puts the spotlight on the posters who are (willfully?) ignorant of the damage it does to this forum.
You got a lot of good feedback in this thread, and you gave a lot of good feedback too. I hope it is listened to, on all fronts.
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After reading your thoughts and the suggestions of others, my thoughts are:
If you are set on Kaiser and Kaiser only at the doctoral level, that is a narrow path to take that requires a doctorate. If I were you, I’d reflect more on why specifically this sounds like what you want to do. A colleague who used to work at Kaiser shared that Kaiser overworks therapists, forcing them to do tons of half-hour sessions with clients, no time for notes in between, working through breaks, etc. Kaiser has also has a history of trying to punish psychologists/therapists as a group for striking/whistleblowing about the horrendous waitlists to see a therapist in the past. I’m sure treatment of employees varies by area/department and hospital, so I’d strongly urge you to talk to psychologists who currently work at Kaiser or recently left Kaiser to see what the current milieu is like. You might even ask to shadow one for a day if they’d be willing.
As others mentioned, if you're open to it, an MSW or MFT program might give you the experience you want while being enough training/education to stop and practice or go on to apply to doctoral programs with a stronger CV and higher GPA. I specifically pursued a master’s to prepare for a doctorate and beef up my CV, and it worked.
I worked alongside a few folks from Sonoma State’s MFT program and all three were solid therapists at the master’s level.
Point being, you have a lot of options, and don’t have to feel trapped pursuing one path when what you want to do (diagnose/treat mental illness in California) is achievable via 3 separate graduate degrees and a multitude of professional settings. You have some flexibility here.
Good luck!
Edit: 4 degrees are options: MSW, MFT, PsyD, PhD.
If you are set on Kaiser and Kaiser only at the doctoral level, that is a narrow path to take that requires a doctorate. If I were you, I’d reflect more on why specifically this sounds like what you want to do. A colleague who used to work at Kaiser shared that Kaiser overworks therapists, forcing them to do tons of half-hour sessions with clients, no time for notes in between, working through breaks, etc. Kaiser has also has a history of trying to punish psychologists/therapists as a group for striking/whistleblowing about the horrendous waitlists to see a therapist in the past. I’m sure treatment of employees varies by area/department and hospital, so I’d strongly urge you to talk to psychologists who currently work at Kaiser or recently left Kaiser to see what the current milieu is like. You might even ask to shadow one for a day if they’d be willing.
As others mentioned, if you're open to it, an MSW or MFT program might give you the experience you want while being enough training/education to stop and practice or go on to apply to doctoral programs with a stronger CV and higher GPA. I specifically pursued a master’s to prepare for a doctorate and beef up my CV, and it worked.
I worked alongside a few folks from Sonoma State’s MFT program and all three were solid therapists at the master’s level.
Point being, you have a lot of options, and don’t have to feel trapped pursuing one path when what you want to do (diagnose/treat mental illness in California) is achievable via 3 separate graduate degrees and a multitude of professional settings. You have some flexibility here.
Good luck!
Edit: 4 degrees are options: MSW, MFT, PsyD, PhD.
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I will note that I have previously observed this type of behavior from certain senior members of the Psychology forum myself, and I call them out when I can 😉
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http://mitch.web.unc.edu/files/2017/02/MitchGradSchoolAdvice.pdf
This document, from the Doctoral Applicants Please Read First post pinned at the top, goes a bit more into detail of many of the suggestions offered in this post by different posters. There is also a section on what to expect at the interview and interview tips. I highly recommend reading the entire document. It is written by a psychologist who is faculty and boarded.
This document, from the Doctoral Applicants Please Read First post pinned at the top, goes a bit more into detail of many of the suggestions offered in this post by different posters. There is also a section on what to expect at the interview and interview tips. I highly recommend reading the entire document. It is written by a psychologist who is faculty and boarded.
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