Allopathic overrated

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Many patients are so lazy and stupid they don't even take the pills. You're smoking alternative medicine if you think telling them diet, exercise and some fancy honey water is going to motivate them to do anything but keep smoking ciggies, pounding Bud and hitting McD's for the large combo.


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Il Destriero
 
Not trolling just saying for example, exercising more and eating less is a much better cure for diabetes Type II then pushing pills down people's throats.
Some of you lack the ability to spot nuances. I never said modern medicine is bad, in fact I said it is the best innovations in human civilization. All I am saying is we are overusing these methods (Antibiotics problem) and that we get so complex being influenced by these innovative methods that we lack simpler methods.
I would argue that modern medicine is more of "keeping the disease at bay" rather than curing it, obviously this ideology has significant exceptions.
 
BioTic said:
Some of you lack the ability to spot nuances.
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irony3.jpg
 
WedgeDawg said:
Before I write a longer response to you, let me ask you a few questions to clarify your understanding.
I ask these questions seriously and I ask you to answer them seriously so that I might be able to better understand your position here.
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1) Are you a physician, a medical student, or something else? something else
2) Do you understand how T2DM works and why we "give pills" for it? Yes, I believe the method I said could work if practiced and possibly cure it.
3) Do you know how effective "telling patients to change their lifestyle" is and what the outcome of that type of intervention is in the majority of cases? Yes, unfortunately.
4) When you say most diseases, do you really mean "most diseases" literally or do you mean the diseases that are most commonly thought of? I was unclear, so diseases that aren't viral or bacterial, with certain exceptions.
5) Do you know why that surgeon might be "cutting your chest open"? Depends on the problem. One day Joe feels pain, goes into the doctor's office. The doctor finds a problem and gives Joe some pills. The pills are keeping the problem at bay, but not curing Joe. Joe goes back 6 months later and the doctor tells Joe he needs surgery. If the doctor never gave him pills, and maybe offered alternative medicine, one could argue Joe might have never needed the surgery.
6) Do you know why medicine is "practiced a certain way"? I don't understand this question, do you mean why hospitals practice medicine a certain way?
7) Do you really think all cardiovascular disease can really be cured by nutrition and wellness alone? No, and I never said that.

Overall, I understand my frustrations and everyone who replied. Some a bit excessive in their aggressiveness. Nonetheless, this is SDN I knew that was coming. I'm just trying to point out the fact, or just bring up an issue. Never did I once say what we have today is bad, I even said it's the best inventions ever created. All I'm saying is we should be more prone to alternative forms of medicine with respect to certain diseases.

Most of you are right, I am not as knowledge as most of you here, and lack the experience so I should have been more conscious of my post. Some of you made some great points that I wasn't even aware of so I do apologize. However, it amazes me that a man couldn't cure his bronchitis by modern medicine and then uses an ancient remedy and it becomes cured. So I believe whatever it takes to help a person stop suffering is the best medicine, even if it is modern medicine or an ancient remedy. Again, I do apologize for being naive.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
OP, what you're referring to is Naturopathic medicine. I used to have the same ideals as you when I started working in different offices, until I realized that doctors are trying to coach their patients on lifestyle changes every day. The problem is that they simply don't listen. Just the other day I was working with a doc who tried counseling a girl for 20 minutes on diet and exercise to help her lose the 10lbs she wants to by her wedding day, but she bullied him into prescribing some diet pill instead.

Ultimately there are some of the older remedies that do work, and research is being done to help uncover some of the mechanisms to these, but until that is performed all of the evidence for these are anecdotal.

If you want to go into lifestyle counseling there are a bunch of methods, with Naturopathic medicine being one of them, but you'll have to wade through a bunch of crap treatments (see Homeopathy), and stay away from the extreme crowds you see in those types of schools, all for a low return on investment. But in the end you'll find that people are averse to changing their lifestyles in the sake of health, and will always be looking for the quick fix.
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Thanks, I guess both of us were a bit naive.
 
Despite your self-diagnosed cleverness, nothing you're written is new to us actually doing this for a living. Could a majority of my diabetic patients get off medications if they exercised and ate exactly right? Of course. That's a no brainer, and why most guidelines for treatment of diabetes, blood pressure, and cholesterol start out with "lifestyle modifications". Do most patients possess the will power and means to actually do these things? Not even close. Could many of my anxiety patients be fixed with CBT? They absolutely could, but xanax is so much easier - plus, who doesn't like getting legally high?

So thanks for your revelation, but you're a bit late to the party.
 
BioTic said:
2) Do you understand how T2DM works and why we "give pills" for it? Yes, I believe the method I said could work if practiced and possibly cure it.
3) Do you know how effective "telling patients to change their lifestyle" is and what the outcome of that type of intervention is in the majority of cases? Yes, unfortunately.
4) When you say most diseases, do you really mean "most diseases" literally or do you mean the diseases that are most commonly thought of? I was unclear, so diseases that aren't viral or bacterial, with certain exceptions.
5) Do you know why that surgeon might be "cutting your chest open"? Depends on the problem. One day Joe feels pain, goes into the doctor's office. The doctor finds a problem and gives Joe some pills. The pills are keeping the problem at bay, but not curing Joe. Joe goes back 6 months later and the doctor tells Joe he needs surgery. If the doctor never gave him pills, and maybe offered alternative medicine, one could argue Joe might have never needed the surgery.
6) Do you know why medicine is "practiced a certain way"? I don't understand this question, do you mean why hospitals practice medicine a certain way?
7) Do you really think all cardiovascular disease can really be cured by nutrition and wellness alone? No, and I never said that.
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Diet and exceeding is only an arguably feasible option for people with early diabetes who lie in a select range of glucose control before treatment. If you wanna try diet with your patient newly diagnosed with T2DM and an HbA1c less than 7, I think few would bust your balls over it. I can say, coming from a school whose hospital is in a really impoverished area where basically everyone has diabetes, it will almost never work (maybe you have a better shot with people with more resources, but that's not necessarily the classic diabetes pt anyway). Still, a ton of people with diabetes have either had it too long or have it too severe for them to be "cured" by any method. You get beta cell failure and amyloid deposition late in the disease. Even if you lose weight and reverse the resistance element to some extent, the islet cells are not functioning normally.

Unless by "certain exceptions," you mean "a hell of a lot of human disease," you're wrong. People don't get most types of cancer because they are poorly and didn't exercise. People with sickle cell don't get acute chest syndrome because they didn't eat enough quinoa. The patient with borderline personality disorder isn't splitting against his primary team because of his lack of vitamin C.

I don't even understand what you're saying with (5). This is like saying that a surgeon is negligent for fixing a hernia without the patient failing some sort of "medical" treatment. Some things do not go away without surgery and there is no viable medical alternative. To be honest with you, a lot of the "bread and butter" things in surgery are these sorts of problems. What type of medical treatment do you propose as an alternative to a lap-chole? With the specific example of cardiac disease, very few patients are allowed to just slowly kill themselves via CAD without someone giving them a statin.
 
BioTic said:
5) Do you know why that surgeon might be "cutting your chest open"? Depends on the problem. One day Joe feels pain, goes into the doctor's office. The doctor finds a problem and gives Joe some pills. The pills are keeping the problem at bay, but not curing Joe. Joe goes back 6 months later and the doctor tells Joe he needs surgery. If the doctor never gave him pills, and maybe offered alternative medicine, one could argue Joe might have never needed the surgery.
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Depending on Joe's problem, one could do as you suggest (did you have a specific example in mind?). But then when Joe suffers an adverse outcome, I believe one could also be sued for not meeting medical standard of care.
 
Also, I should have clarified I mean to say nutritional related diseases that are a major plague to Americans, as well as becoming an emerging problem in other countries.
IlDestriero said:
Many patients are so lazy and stupid they don't even take the pills.
Click to expand...
I understand you are a doctor and have superior knowledge than me and your patients (for the time being). But, the fact that you said that amazes me, and the fact that no one else brought it up amazes me even more. I don't think calling patients lazy & stupid is justified in any setting except maybe within the confines of your own mind. Or maybe I just expect more from physicians. No offense Doc.
 
This thread reminded me of that Donald Trump quote from "How to Get Rich", in which he offers his opinion on doctors and his vast understanding of "foot injuries":

4ABQbFC.jpg


OP sounds as incredibly ignorant and opinionated as Trump in this case. "No offense," pre-dental.
 
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BioTic said:
Also, I should have clarified I mean to say nutritional related diseases that are a major plague to Americans, as well as becoming an emerging problem in other countries.

I understand you are a doctor and have superior knowledge than me and your patients (for the time being). But, the fact that you said that amazes me, and the fact that no one else brought it up amazes me even more. I don't think calling patients lazy & stupid is justified in any setting except maybe within the confines of your own mind. Or maybe I just expect more from physicians. No offense Doc.
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What do you want from us?
I didn't force feed the burger. I rarely ever prescribe something (even in the ED) without advising,life style change.
People are resistant to change.
People are strapped for cash. Pound for
pound, fresh produce and healthy options are more expensive. Nicotine is addictive.
After years of non compliance we see patients in our office/OR/ed and give the SAME Damn advice, and advocate the SAME Damn changes.
Day 1, sugar 150. Hey phil, easy on the dougnuts
Day 30, sugar 260. Hey phil, easy on the burgers
Day 360, sugar 310. Hey phil, stop it man. Here is metformin.
Day 720, sugar 600, a1c 13%. Damn it phil, stop, here is insulin. And what's that on your foot? And what? Your vision is blurry?
Year 10, one heart attack, two below the knees amputations, diabetic neuropathy later.... "I didn't know this would happen doc"

I mean, what the hell.
And I'm not even a cynical person lol.

This is medicines reality. It would be spectacular if people helped us help them, but they DONT, and if anything,they make it progressively harder to treat them. Don't act like we willingly or knowingly withhold some secret of life.
 
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BioTic said:
Also, I should have clarified I mean to say nutritional related diseases that are a major plague to Americans, as well as becoming an emerging problem in other countries.

I understand you are a doctor and have superior knowledge than me and your patients (for the time being). But, the fact that you said that amazes me, and the fact that no one else brought it up amazes me even more. I don't think calling patients lazy & stupid is justified in any setting except maybe within the confines of your own mind. Or maybe I just expect more from physicians. No offense Doc.
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Look, man, it's just the reality. A lot of patients are unmotivated. A lot of the reasons for this are understandable but they're still unmotivated. Let's call spades spades here.

I go to a city med school and I love working in this environment, but you see a lot of poor patients. When you have trouble buying decent food and your neighborhood is unsafe to run in, the results are predictable. Good public health and city projects can and have paid dividends here but neighborhoods don't change overnight.

I have also met a lot of patients who have no good excuse. They have lots of resources and lots of time but they simply do not prioritize their health. That's their own choice and I'm probably less judgmental than some about this, but these people exist and there's no way around it.
 
BioTic said:
Also, I should have clarified I mean to say nutritional related diseases that are a major plague to Americans, as well as becoming an emerging problem in other countries.

I understand you are a doctor and have superior knowledge than me and your patients (for the time being). But, the fact that you said that amazes me, and the fact that no one else brought it up amazes me even more. I don't think calling patients lazy & stupid is justified in any setting except maybe within the confines of your own mind. Or maybe I just expect more from physicians. No offense Doc.
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You're right. I'll call them motivated and smart from now on for doing less than zero to maintain their health, including even minimal things like taking a med or two a day as directed for their significant medical problems that are slowly, or not so slowly killing them. I'll leave out smoking cessation, nutrition and lifestyle changes, etc. as it is not realistic to even consider this option for most patients. Those suggestions are ignored like background noise in the room, recommendations that they ignore every visit, and every time they get on a scale, and every time they look in a mirror, or go to the store and buy bigger clothes, etc.
The denial and apathy is a significant challenge for many patients. Many smart and motivated patients.


--
Il Destriero
 
smokn said:
Pre-dental's trolling allo boards now? Nice.
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The OP is a pre-dentopath?

Lifestyle modification recommended by physicians is like dentists telling people to floss and brush three times a day after meals...just a lot more difficult to comply with.
 
BioTic said:
I understand you are a doctor and have superior knowledge than me and your patients (for the time being). But, the fact that you said that amazes me, and the fact that no one else brought it up amazes me even more. I don't think calling patients lazy & stupid is justified in any setting except maybe within the confines of your own mind. Or maybe I just expect more from physicians. No offense Doc.
Click to expand...

Sorry about that PC police. What he meant to say was that the patients have "significant barriers to compliance and low health literacy".

Have you ever thought about dropping the pre-dental thing and being a hospital administrator?
 
@IlDestriero taking a pill or two a day? being overweight is not the cause of all medical issues. What are you even saying?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Old_Mil said:
The OP is a pre-dentopath?
Click to expand...

It has now become my goal to start an osteopathic dental school.

"The osteopathic dentist differs from the conventional dentist in that we look at the whole mouth, and not just one tooth and place an emphasis on general dentistry to address the dentist shortage in underserved areas."
 
Ho0v-man said:
It has now become my goal to start an osteopathic dental school.

"The osteopathic dentist differs from the conventional dentist in that we look at the whole mouth, and not just one tooth and place an emphasis on general dentistry to address the dentist shortage in underserved areas."
Click to expand...

We actually touch our patients' gums.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
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Cinematographer said:
This thread reminded me of that Donald Trump quote from "How to Get Rich", in which he offers his opinion on doctors and his vast understanding of "foot injuries":

4ABQbFC.jpg


OP sounds as incredibly ignorant and opinionated as Trump in this case. No offense, pre-dental.
Click to expand...

The fact that grammar this terrible actually got published makes me cringe as much as his social commentary...
 
Op doesn't sound as ignorant as trump!!!! No one is as ignorant as trump!! What are you guys on?

And stop saying "no offense" when you are trying to be offensive!!


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daivimarga said:
Op doesn't sound as ignorant as trump!!!! No one is as ignorant as trump!! What are you guys on?

And stop saying "no offense" when you are trying to be offensive!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Have to disagree with this part right here.
Feeling the Bern?

Politics aside, the man has made himself an empire.

Edit: It's really a shame Carson is so soft spoken, he would be a good leader. Read his books if you haven't. Gifted Hands is great, and I'm only halfway through One Nation, but so far so good there too
 
daivimarga said:
And stop saying "no offense" when you are trying to be offensive!!
Click to expand...
You realize I did that only because the OP did it to the previous poster, right? You should perhaps tell him/her to stop being passive-aggressive; maybe that way his/her posts will stop exuding so much ignorance about allopathic medicine.
 
MD2BE92 said:
Have to disagree with this part right here.
Feeling the Bern?

Politics aside, the man has made himself an empire.

Edit: It's really a shame Carson is so soft spoken, he would be a good leader. Read his books if you haven't. Gifted Hands is great, and I'm only halfway through One Nation, but so far so good there too
Click to expand...
Carson is an idiot. I don't trust anyonewho thinks creationism is a thing. No critical thought.
 
giantswing said:
Carson is an idiot. I don't trust anyonewho thinks creationism is a thing. No critical thought.
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I don't think you should lump all creationists together. I have religious friends who are some of the most open minded people and intelligent people I know. (I'm an agnostic personally) Spirituality is largely a spectrum, there is no black and white, and you shouldn't just pigeonhole someone who is a creationist as "no critical thought." This is something I think most non-believers fail to understand: some of these people are actually very philosophically attuned. Keep in mind as humans we have a relatively limited understanding of the universe. It's foolish to think lean dogmatic in either direction.
 
37Base said:
I don't think you should lump all creationists together. I have religious friends who are some of the most open minded people and intelligent people I know. (I'm an agnostic personally) Spirituality is largely a spectrum, there is no black and white, and you shouldn't just pigeonhole someone who is a creationist as "no critical thought." This is something I think most non-believers fail to understand: some of these people are actually very philosophically attuned. Keep in mind as humans we have a relatively limited understanding of the universe. It's foolish to think lean dogmatic in either direction.
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Scientists, doctors included, who believe in creationism are dumb. Un lumped.
 
Hey now, this very serious and important thread about the flawed premise of Western medicine is getting seriously derailed by politics and religion talk. Let's keep on point: our careers are founded on lies.
 
Cinematographer said:
You realize I did that only because the OP did it to the previous poster, right? You should perhaps tell him/her to stop being passive-aggressive; maybe that way his/her posts will stop exuding so much ignorance about allopathic medicine.
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You realize I only did that because my first post received so much aggression. I said no offense because I meant it & not to be passive-aggressive. Cough* Cynical Cough* Exuding, that's a nice word. Thank You.
 
Im done, I didn't mean to offend anyone or troll anyone. @irJanus You make a great point, and as I said before I do apologize for my ignorance & inexperience. Although, this thread has took a turn for the worst, I still learned a few things. Thank You.
God bless.
 
doyouhaveaflag said:
@BioTic, you're late to the party! We already had that argument here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/creationists-in-med-school.1187947/

(spoiler alert: hilarity ensued, but no one convinced anyone to change their mind)
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I'm not going to read a 5 page+ forum debate on the matter. I have already seen many debates with people who are more qualified to debate this topic. However, where is the evidence?
Goro replied with absolute certainty so it seems as if their has been some newfound evidence that has been revealed within the recent months that I am not aware of...so I ask you where is the evidence?
Edit: I read some of that thread.
Your telling me evolution is the evidence that the universe popped into existence? That's the dumbest thing I heard. I believe in evolution, but evolution is dependent on the universe existing, so how did the universe get created? Where is the evidence?
 
BioTic said:
I'm not going to read a 5 page+ forum debate on the matter. I have already seen many debates with people who are more qualified to debate this topic. However, where is the evidence?
Goro replied with absolute certainty so it seems as if their has been some newfound evidence that has been revealed within the recent months that I am not aware of...so I ask you where is the evidence?
Edit: I read some of that thread.
Your telling me evolution is the evidence that the universe popped into existence? That's the dumbest thing I heard. I believe in evolution, but evolution is dependent on the universe existing, so how did the universe get created? Where is the evidence?
Click to expand...

This isn't really at all on topic for this thread or this forum
 
BioTic said:
Yea I realize, but someone else brought it up.
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There are 200 billion stars in our galaxy alone, with around 8.8 billion habitable earth sized planets...if there is an almighty Creator, he's one busy guy...also doesn't seem like it would make a lot of sense that he would commit 7 days to creating life on one planet and neglect the remaining couple hundred billion that are floating out there...I'll take scientific theory and logic over anecdotal tales in a book any day...but hey, that's just me.

Also, to keep things on topic, so how about that Allopathic medicine, huh?
 
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SSJimmer7 said:
There are 200 billion stars in our galaxy alone with around 8.8 billion habitable earth sized planets...if there is an almighty Creator, he's one busy guy...also doesn't seem like it would make a lot of sense that he would commit 7 days to creating life on one planet and neglect the remaining couple hundred billion that are floating out there...I'll take scientific theory and logic over anecdotal tales in a book any day...but hey, that's just me.

Also, to keep things on topic, so how about that Allopathic medicine, huh?
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Its funny how humans think G-d is comprehensible. If your quoting the bible I too would be in your situation, after all the bible has been edited by men with political motives over the centuries. Also it isn't logical to believe the universe popped into existence.
Im done talking about this since it's off topic.
I love medicine. Thanks for asking. How's medical school?
 
BioTic said:
Your telling me evolution is the evidence that the universe popped into existence? That's the dumbest thing I heard. I believe in evolution, but evolution is dependent on the universe existing, so how did the universe get created? Where is the evidence?
Click to expand...
Haha, pretty sure all I said was that the argument's been had (points relevant to the origin of the universe are in the thread I linked to, even though it's mostly about creationism - I wasn't conflating the two). Why rehash it?

I've never actually opined on the subject on SDN.
 
This thread has gotten pretty weird. Anyway, I don't think being a creationist necessarily rejects science. It's fairly reasonable to believe that God created the universe and the laws of physics that it follows (including the big bang, etc). The hardcore creationists that believe God created all the animals and placed them on the earth are just plain wrong, though.

What were we talking about in this thread again?
 
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