Am I actually up for O-4?

[JamesL]

I am 1 year out of my FM residency. Medical school was 4 years and residency was the standard 3 years including internship. I direct commissioned as an O-3 in 2019 in the ARNG. This weekend I received notification from my G1 that I was being considered for promotion to O-4. Since I have been drilling only for a few months, and I have not yet even been to DCC or BOLC this seems... premature to say the least. Is this even possible or is this an error somewhere? My company commander is encouraging me to go through the process but everyone else I've talked to seems a bit perplexed about the process. Anyone have a similar experience?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted480308]

I would be surprised that you can promote without bolc as you aren’t aoc qualified yet

 

[haujun]

It looks are you are being considered for below the zone 04. I think military is giving a credit for 4 years of service.

 

[militaryPHYS]

The fact that I, as a an O4, have no idea what a qualified O3 physician’s chances are of promotion due to the fact that they are in a different service and I have no idea what BOLC or AOC means shows exactly how non-HRO the DOD really is and how much we are wasting our time and resources on things that won’t benefit our warfighter or their family’s medical benefit.

 

[backrow]

The fact that I, as a an O4, have no idea what a qualified O3 physician’s chances are of promotion due to the fact that they are in a different service and I have no idea what BOLC or AOC means shows exactly how non-HRO the DOD really is and how much we are wasting our time and resources on things that won’t benefit our warfighter or their family’s medical benefit.

Or you could consider that the Army has a completely different mission than the Navy and that perchance they have unique aspects that change what they need in an officer.

Standardization of everything is not what an HRO is or should be.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[Cooperd0g]

The fact that I, as a an O4, have no idea what a qualified O3 physician’s chances are of promotion due to the fact that they are in a different service and I have no idea what BOLC or AOC means shows exactly how non-HRO the DOD really is and how much we are wasting our time and resources on things that won’t benefit our warfighter or their family’s medical benefit.

The fact that you, as an O4, have no idea what BOLC is, despite it being a MAJOR training program for another service, highlights how inexperienced you are with the military as a whole.

Separately, if you want to talk about HRO, then at a minimum it might be worth your time to read up on what it is so you don't just throw the term around like an independent business consultant using meaningless buzzwords.

 

[JamesL]

Thanks all for the input! Gives me enough questions to start running this up the chain to figure out what is going on. Thanks!

 

[deleted480308]

Thanks all for the input! Gives me enough questions to start running this up the chain to figure out what is going on. Thanks!

https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/r135_155.pdf

2-15 and table 2-2 seems to say you need bolc to promote to O4, who knows what the promotion gods will do

 

[armytrainingsir]

When I was promoted to MAJ, waaaay back when....
4 years in grade as an 03 was your BZ look
5 years in grade was your zone look
6 years in grade was your AZ look.

This is your BZ look, but you aren't qualified to be promoted due to missing PME per AR135 as mentioned by sb247.
(no BOLC, no Oak leaf).

That said, your chances of a BZ promotion having done nothing in the military are pretty much zero anyway, so don't sweat it.

The thing to do, however, is use your BZ look as a trial run to make sure your ORB is up to date and your DA photo is correct. And make dang sure you get BOLC done within the next year so you are gtg when in the zone.
Dropping the ball during your BZ look is okay. You don't want to screw up your promotion when you are in the zone.

 

[JamesL]

The thing to do, however, is use your BZ look as a trial run to make sure your ORB is up to date and your DA photo is correct. And make dang sure you get BOLC done within the next year so you are gtg when in the zone.
Dropping the ball during your BZ look is okay. You don't want to screw up your promotion when you are in the zone.

Thanks! This is my plan - learning who I need to contact and the word salad of IPERMS, AMHRR, HRC, etc has been very illuminating. My ORB is a mess - actually lists me in the wrong branch.

 

[militaryPHYS]

The fact that you, as an O4, have no idea what BOLC is, despite it being a MAJOR training program for another service, highlights how inexperienced you are with the military as a whole.

Separately, if you want to talk about HRO, then at a minimum it might be worth your time to read up on what it is so you don't just throw the term around like an independent business consultant using meaningless buzzwords.

Quick to jump on the assuming personal jabs. Our understanding of the breadth of the military system is completely dependent on our assignments. I might know what something is but do I understand it enough to apply it to someone’s situation for leadership/mentoring purposes? Not until I truly understand it and as a physician my time should have been spent teaching that freshly graduated army resident how to practice medicine.

We are doing something wrong if I as an O4 Navy orthopedic surgeon can’t go to an Army hospital and easily integrate in to the clinical and administrative pathway. It increases preoccupation with BS tasks to get ourselves credentialed, paid, promoted, etc. and distracts us from warm turnovers, consistent leadership, consistent clinical structure, etc. That equals risk for catastrophic failure and patient harm.

It’s hard enough to accomplish those BS tasks at a Navy hospital, let alone a different services hospital.

 

[armytrainingsir]

Thanks! This is my plan - learning who I need to contact and the word salad of IPERMS, AMHRR, HRC, etc has been very illuminating. My ORB is a mess - actually lists me in the wrong branch.

Yup. A huge part of being in the Reserves the first few years is finding who both able to help you and is willing to help you.

Find someone in your unit that is in the zone and someone that was just promoted. They can guide you locally. Multiple mentors are a good thing.

The ORB mess can really take some work to get it all straightened out. Fortunately, it will be easy to help you since you haven't done anything yet, so it should be mostly blank!

 

[Perrotfish]

That said, your chances of a BZ promotion having done nothing in the military are pretty much zero anyway, so don't sweat it.

One of our attendings who had previously sat on the selection board gave a promotion lecture for the residents. She told us that, at least in the Navy, the authorized BZ promote rate for O4 was (I think) 7%. She said that in the year when she was there that they had more below zone promotions to give out than there were completed files. Literally anyone who had submitted a photo that year got a BZ promote and they still had a few to give away to random blank files. She did the lecture every year to make sure that everyone in our residency class had a completed file for the BZ look.

There was also a physician in my command who, as far as I can tell, received a BZ promote during her deferred civilian residency, despite not submitting anything to her file and not having spent any time on active duty since ODS. Not prior service. There may be something I don't know about her credentials but I think she was just one of the lucky ones.

Of course I submitted everything and got promoted in zone anyway, but just an FYI that its worth trying for.

 

[militaryPHYS]

One of our attendings who had previously sat on the selection board gave a promotion lecture for the residents. She told us that, at least in the Navy, the authorized BZ promote rate for O4 was (I think) 7%. She said that in the year when she was there that they had more below zone promotions to give out than there were completed files. Literally anyone who had submitted a photo that year got a BZ promote and they still had a few to give away to random blank files. She did the lecture every year to make sure that everyone in our residency class had a completed file for the BZ look.

There was also a physician in my command who, as far as I can tell, received a BZ promote during her deferred civilian residency, despite not submitting anything to her file and not having spent any time on active duty since ODS. Not prior service. There may be something I don't know about her credentials but I think she was just one of the lucky ones.

Of course I submitted everything and got promoted in zone anyway, but just an FYI that its worth trying for.

I’ve heard similar numbers. BZ 04 for Navy in recent years between 3 and 7%. In 2017 myself and a couple USUHS classmates selected BZ with not much more than our college, med school and photos on our files. @Perrotfish is right. Have as much in your record as possible because you never know.

 

[backrow]

I’ve heard similar numbers. BZ 04 for Navy in recent years between 3 and 7%. In 2017 myself and a couple USUHS classmates selected BZ with not much more than our college, med school and photos on our files. @Perrotfish is right. Have as much in your record as possible because you never know.

For Navy (sorry OP I’m continuing a little bit off-topic here) it drives me a little crazy that the vast majority (all from what I know personally) of people who get BZ to O4 are in residency. The reason for this is they are breaking out in a peer group unlike their peers who are serving as GMOs who are showing up at the boards with 1 of 1 FitReps.

I understand why it happens with the current FitRep system, but my personal opinion is that it should be the GMOs who are out there deploying and supporting the warfighter on the ground that are getting more of the early looks.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[militaryPHYS]

For Navy (sorry OP I’m continuing a little bit off-topic here) it drives me a little crazy that the vast majority (all from what I know personally) of people who get BZ to O4 are in residency. The reason for this is they are breaking out in a peer group unlike their peers who are serving as GMOs who are showing up at the boards with 1 of 1 FitReps.

I understand why it happens with the current FitRep system, but my personal opinion is that it should be the GMOs who are out there deploying and supporting the warfighter on the ground that are getting more of the early looks.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

I agree, but I honestly don’t think there is any break out at all. It really just seems dependent on whether you had your officer photo taken. Anecdotally, I was only one within group of USUHS classmates who was in residency. Other 2 were in the fleet.

Regardless it is not a good system. Goes back to my original point. Physicians are physicians. We should all be grouped and graded on same criteria regardless of service branch or specialty.

 

[pgg]

On second thought, I'll just leave this one alone.

 

[d2305]

If one has a pulse LCDR is guaranteed.

 

[JamesL]

So mystery solved - spoke to my recruiter today, and it appears there was an error in my Time in Grade (3 instead of 7). They are fixing the issue and I will not be up for promotion yet. Will still be working on my ORB though!

 

[Roberie]

So mystery solved - spoke to my recruiter today, and it appears there was an error in my Time in Grade (3 instead of 7). They are fixing the issue and I will not be up for promotion yet. Will still be working on my ORB though!

wah wuh.

 

[backrow]

I agree, but I honestly don’t think there is any break out at all.

There actually is a breakout, I’ve sat on enough resident FitRep tiering boards to see it in action. If you’re a LT in training and able to get EPs you certainly increase your chance of BZ promotion.

It really just seems dependent on whether you had your officer photo taken.

.

This is incorrect, and bad gouge. I know plenty of folks with officer photos who did not get picked up BZ, myself included.

Anecdotally, I was only one within group of USUHS classmates who was in residency. Other 2 were in the fleet.

That’s good to hear and I can change my “N” of zero of folks in the fleet who got picked up BZ. Those folks didn’t have masters degrees or prior service that would put them ahead, correct?





Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[armytrainingsir]

No doubt, he 'could' get BZ.
And for his sake, I would be more than happy to be proven wrong.


That said, when I have looked at reserve promotions lists in the past (granted, mostly 05 and 06 lists), I googled some of the BZ selected folks, and they all had 'something' going for them. Definitely more than a DA photo.

 

[militaryPHYS]

There actually is a breakout, I’ve sat on enough resident FitRep tiering boards to see it in action. If you’re a LT in training and able to get EPs you certainly increase your chance of BZ promotion.

LT's in the fleet can get EP's too. My first EP as an O3 in training was PGY-4 year. One would expect even the average of average LT's at any command to get an EP by then. I know some get screwed by having crappy leadership and/or tough R/S, so that sucks. Real trouble would be is if they went fleet but already returned back to training and then dropped to left once back in residency.

So yes. Having an EP on your PSR is likely a requirement and "breakout" but most have this by 3 years at any command. So lineal number priority #1, Having EP #2 and having OSR up to date #3. What I am saying though is that I THINK that if your OSR is not up to date and there is no photo, even if you have an EP you are not getting selected. Also, if you are far enough down on lineal list and enough people met all 3 criteria to hit BZ quota for that year it doesn't matter how awesome your record is.

Caveat, I obviously have not sat on an O4 promotion board nor spoken about this directly with anyone who has.

Guidance for LT's doesn't change: Have your OSR up to date and get your photo taken! You never know

 

[SirGecko]

Those folks didn’t have masters degrees or prior service that would put them ahead, correct?

A masters or prior service would just increase your lineal number so it’s not really getting promoted BZ, you just come into zone earlier.

For what it’s worth anyone I know of people that got promoted below zone for O4 both in and out of residency and there doesn’t seem to be a lot of rhyme or reason to it. (but it’s definitely not just having a picture on file) I think you are correct about having more people to be ranked against at the hospital. I know my billet was geographically 1 of 1 I think I was ranked against only like 4 other GMOs in my region and that’s a decently large breakout compared to some places. So yeah you may have a few years of EP fitreps but they count less when it’s against a smaller peer group. I agree that if they are going to promote anyone below zone (I would probably argue it’s not really necessary) for O4 it should probably be the people that are actually out in the fleet. Not sure how much that is

Talking to people in the AirForce it seems they basically auto promotes all the way to O5/O6 for med corps. Seems to work fine for them.

 

[backrow]

A masters or prior service would just increase your lineal number so it’s not really getting promoted BZ, you just come into zone earlier.
.

Yep, that’s why I wanted to confirm that wasn’t the case. Sometimes we don’t know our own colleagues’ history and think they are getting promoted BZ when in reality they had some sort of time credit.

All in all, I agree with many: have your record updated, including a photo in your current rank. Don’t plan on getting BZ, but if you do then it’s most likely going to be a good thing.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[TheEarDoc]

Not the way for med service corps. I know pretty much BZ doesn't happen unless you have tons of other stuff going for you. I will be done with DCC, BOLC phase I and II and probably done with phase I of CCC and will probably still get a pass on BZ to 0-4.

Glad the poster got this figured out!