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Did you mean plausible/probable?
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People like this are people like myself and NecrotizingFascitis. I got a 2.0 my first 2 years, decided to go pre-med and got a 3.7 afterwards. I also got a 37 on the old MCAT (Roughly 95 percentile). We both proved in college that we could do the work. I also went to UCLA so that 3.7 in upper level classes was more impressive.
The OP finished undergrad. There is a difference. I still put the chance at one in 2000.
I just realized the irony that this crap is coming from @Jalby, the guy with a 15 year old grudge against Georgetown for telling him they could easily fill their seats without him...
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I also wrote the official guide to applying to medical school and the official guide to studying for the MCAT. I'm trying to figure out exactly what my experience with Georgetown has to do with the advice I am giving to someone who has finished college with a 3.14 GPA. I'm sorry you can't figure out the difference between "Crap" and giving a person who finished college with a 3.14 GPA accurate advice on if he can get into medical school.
You are giving terribly inaccurate "advice". Plenty of people have posted here who didn't do well in college and then later addressed the problem and got accepted to medical school. The very existence of SMP programs undermines your entire argument.
And, AGAIN, no one is telling OP to put in an application with a 3.14 GPA and nothing else. Everyone is telling them to take more classes or get another degree to address the GPA and THEN apply. What about that are you not getting?
THE OP is in a post-bac and has yet to take o-chem and biochem. Add in a few additional upper level science courses as a post-bac, maybe a SMP (not a fan but this is a case where an "audition" for medical school might be a good idea) and the OP could be the one in eight to is admitted despite a crappy record as an undergrad who was not pre-med at the time. I think that is where the holistic review comes in; many applicants did what they needed to do to graduate expecting that they were going to go into a corporate or government position where grades don't matter very much, if at all, only to discover late in the game that they want to go on to professional school.
I was in the same boat. When I went back to college I was UNDER A 2.0
Who cares what some school ranks you. Medical schools will rank you according to their own preference they wont care much about an undergrads ranking.
Get as many A's between you and those bad grades as possible and ace ur MCAT. And don't commit crimes
My advice that he doesn't bother considering medicine is accurate for 95% of people who have FINISHED college with a 3.14 GPA. Every one of you give examples of how you did bad in the first two years and then kicked ass IN college and got a great MCAT to get in. The OP cannot prove he can compete IN college and most graduate schools have EXTREMELY inflated grades. They are not weighted anywhere near the finished college grades.
Could he go to a SMP course, get great grades and get in?? Possibly. But the vast majority of people who go to a SMP program and have a 3.14 GPA end up getting equivalent grades in the SMP program.
So I'll state it again, the OP is better off focusing on doing something better with his life rather than spending years and a ton of money hoping he is the one in 2,000 who defies the odds.
Could he go to a SMP course, get great grades and get in?? Possibly. But the vast majority of people who go to a SMP program and have a 3.14 GPA end up getting equivalent grades in the SMP program.
So I'll state it again, the OP is better off focusing on doing something better with his life rather than spending years and a ton of money hoping he is the one in 2,000 who defies the odds.
BTW, the reason schools have SMP programs exist is because they are fund raisers for the school. The only ones I know of that is usefull is Boston University and Georgetown. You guys know my feelings on GT. It costs $50,000 per year at GT. This is a huge money maker for them to basically allow people to sit in the med school classes.
This is actual data. You can see from the Teal line what someone who has a 3.1 GPA would do based on the percentile of GPA. I have no reason to believe that someone who is 27 percentile GPA at a school could outperform a smarter cohort of people who are applying to medical school. And, his consistant 3.14 GPA would be competing against the people who got a 2.3 at the start of college and then proved later on in school that they can handle the classwork by getting a 3.7 GPA. So he would actually be below the teal line.
So is it possible?? Yes. Should he waste $100k and 2-3 years of his life trying to get himself a shot above 10% of getting into medical school?? No.
So is it possible?? Yes. Should he waste $100k and 2-3 years of his life trying to get himself a shot above 10% of getting into medical school?? No.
Harsh, but I would also look at other careers. PA is an awesome career that will net you six figures and a ton of flexibility. Everyone here is stuck on being a doctor, but it takes a long time. Even if you were qualified at some point, you may want to do something other than study/do residency for the next ten years. Give it some thought at least.
Meh. I got in with a lower gpa to a solid mid tier this year. (90th+ percentile MCAT)I haven't read the whole thread, but it's definitely possible. However, unlikely without a lot of grade repair, stellar ecs and lors. I didn't do an smp, just a diy upper division unit post bacc.
Clearly I'm over simplifying it, and trust me it was NOT easy, but my point is if you really want to be a physician, you will be. You just need to put in the work to address your past. And be able to write and speak eloquently.
Clearly I'm over simplifying it, and trust me it was NOT easy, but my point is if you really want to be a physician, you will be. You just need to put in the work to address your past. And be able to write and speak eloquently.
I think that's way too harsh. OP can get into med school, but it'll take him much longer than his or her peers. OP will have to kill the mcat and also take some post bac courses or do a Masters program to show the adcoms that he/she can handle the rigors of med school.
My first semester GPA was a 2.7 and my cgpa when I graduated was a 3.2. I got my masters degree and got a 3.8 GPA, then I took the new mcat and scored 514. I received 4 MD II. If OP thinks it's worth it and really commits then I think that he/she will pull it off. But it might take 2 to 4 years to build a good app that demonstrates maturity before OP should apply.
Latter group here. OP, don't listen to folks like jalby. If you really want this, you'll make it happen. It won't be easy and it won't be quick. But it'll happen.
I really don't understand why jalby seems to have made it their personal mission to crush dreams. So insane to tell someone to "give up on medicine" based on their own narrow perspective/ beliefs. But meh, some people really need a win and unfortunately it might come in the form of putting others down on an anonymous forum...
I had the same GPA as you because I screwed around my freshman/soph year..failed a bunch of classes, stopped showing up (didn't even think to drop), etc. I eventually graduated and 5 years later decided I wanted to be a doctor. Went back to school to complete pre-reqs and re-take a couple F's in 101 level classes. Finished my DIY post bacc with a 3.9. Unfortunately, my MD gpa was still crap and MD schools apparently could not overlook the fact my mess up was over 10 years ago and I was a changed student now. F it.
My DO gpa was pretty respectable at a 3.5. I also had an MCAT that was average for lower tier MD schools and above average for DO.
Long story short, I got zero love from MD, but had multiple acceptances from DO. If I were you, I'd apply MD (MCAT dependent here) and DO, with the understanding that unless you absolutely crush the MCAT you're facing an uphill battle with MD. Either way, you can still absolutely be a doctor.
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Countless studies have shown there is no correlation between undergraduate GPA and board scores/passing rates.
Where are you getting this information? Or are you just making wild assumptions?
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deleted738762
More like easy if the bottom quartile is a B. Or the students are top tier.
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deleted738762
@Jalby is making sense from a realistic point of view. However, he did not consider that OP can retake his courses and apply to DO schools with a reinvented oh I don't know 3.6 GPA. It might take a few years, but certainly doable.
OP: Risk it for the biscuit brother. If you really want it.
OP: Risk it for the biscuit brother. If you really want it.
This is the thing I hate about SDN. The entire concept that if you believe, you can achieve is totally not true. If it was, 100% of the people who apply would become doctors instead of the 37% acceptance rate (thats what it was in my day). But what actually happens is 63% of the people who really wants to be a physician do not become one. Shouldn't we be realistic and tell the bottom 20% of the people applying that, no, you actually cannot be a physician and you should consider other options?
Wait. You need proof that being able to succeed in taking test in undergrad would correlate with being able to take test in medical school?? Like there is some magic difference in the tests that uses a different part of the brain so that someone can be bad in college but good in med school??? I do love the outrage in the question tho....
There is no consistency in grades in colleges. A 3.8 GPA from one school does not equal a 3.8 GPA from another school. Some places give all As, while some have strict scores. That is the only reason that you have much much high correlation with MCAT scores to Board pass rates than GPA. Nothing else. But someone who is 27 percentile from XXX college is totally going to be equivalent to someone who is 27 percentile from another school.
Nope. Because if I'd listened to pretentious, anonymous"advice" like this, I would have definitely believed it impossible for me. When in reality, the couple of extra years it took me to be an acceptable candidate for an MD school fostered resilience and exposed me to experiences that will ultimately only enhance my abilities as a physician.
Frankly, it's impossible for very few people. Anyone who wants it enough, can put in the blood, sweat and tears to get an MD or DO acceptance. Please don't ever join an adcom. Your perspective is too narrow and jaded to be in charge of such an important process
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LoveBeingHuman:)
Just because someone's performance is poor, doesn't mean their potential is poor. Things happen, life gets in the way, motivation doesn't kick in yet, and people perform poorly. Doesn't mean they can't do better.
You are talking about the rare rare exception of the rule, not what actually is accurate. Grades and test scores at one level always correlates with abilities at the next level with rare exceptions.
I'm not that anonymous. I've been on this board for 15 years now. And it's only pretentious because you don't like it.
I got access to the grades of my class at USC. We had 8 people who failed out or who decided med school was to hard by the end of the second year. Of the 168 people in the medical school class, these 8 people were all within the lowest 15 people when I sorted by GPA*10+MCAT.
Impossible for very few people?? 37% acceptance rate from the top people applying in colleges. Yes, it is impossible for MOST people to become doctors. And I've been on many different adcom positions and I currently have veto power over hires with the people I am working with now. People should consider listening to my "Pretentious" advice. There is a very very good chance that you would have actually made more money if you had been a phycisians assistant rather than becoming a doctor, even with you "Succeeding"
USC is pretty infamous for taking the youngins. So you're right. Taking someone with such a low gpa or mcat who hasn't done significant grade repair and/or some real soul searching about whether medicine is for them given their low performances, is pretty idiotic. And entirely on the school. Those students WILL have a harder time. Which is why no one is telling op they're competitive today. Other than that, you seem really angry and invested in that so uh, I'm out. Peace.
Its really kind of idiotic to think everyone wants to be a physician to "make more money."
If you bothered to use some critical thinking skills, you'd realize you're really judgmental and make a **** ton of assumptions. Guess what? I *currently* make more money than a PA. Money isn't why I'm in this. But knowing that's where your head's at makes your bitterness super understandable. Good luck with life, bud.
Curious though, even if the people who can't cut it in med school are the low end of the stats spectrum, how many on the low end of accepted end up going on to do well?
Without an MCAT, who's to say a person is/isn't capable. I know practically you're right - most people sitting at a 3.1 lack either the necessary motivation or ability to get into/succeed in med school. But I think there are a lot of students out there who came back from low GPAs to make fine med students/doctors.
That's not at all what we were talking about. We were talking about whether or not a particular class (or major) would lend itself to better performance in medical school. The studies indicate your pre-medical school background does not have an impact. I don't know how you interpreted that as anything else.
Second, the MCAT is considered not at all or only weakly correlated with board scores in MOST studies on the topic. See the study below for one such example. I believe you are quite misinformed about several aspects of undergrad education and how they relate to medical school (and beyond) success. Maybe get yourself up to speed before dishing out sub-par advice to others. Just a suggestion.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5059149/
Look at the study you posted. This is a survey of 81 students and the MCAT got a P value of .066, just above the cut off of being significant. Do the same study with 120 people and it would show that it correlates. So this study DOES NOT show that MCAT is not at all correlated or weakly correlated. All it does show is that if you did good on the clinical tests and UWorld than your MCAT would be better. It actually lends evidence to the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Now, why don't you go research the question before claiming someones advice is "Sub-par." Saying "the MCAT is considered not at all or only weakly correlated with board scores" is one of the most sub-par things I have ever seen on here.
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Here is a prospective study of 340 students, not a questionaire of 81. They had only factual data and not remembrances. MCAT, a multiple choice test testing your knowledge, was correlated with success on step 1, another multiple choice test that tests your knowldge. I'm shocked that this concept is even up for debate.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25850120
S
Sardinia
@Jalby I believe that SMP programs are mutually beneficial arrangements.
The medical school makes additional income per student and the students are able to lock down and determine whether they have the merit to succeed within the pace of a medical program. The students who commit to an SMP exchange an upfront cost instead of dealing with countless cycles of tentative rejection cycles and opportunity cost by attempting to pursue medicine which may ultimately be a dead end for them.
The medical school makes additional income per student and the students are able to lock down and determine whether they have the merit to succeed within the pace of a medical program. The students who commit to an SMP exchange an upfront cost instead of dealing with countless cycles of tentative rejection cycles and opportunity cost by attempting to pursue medicine which may ultimately be a dead end for them.
Did you even read the study you just posted? The person you're arguing with said "the MCAT is considered not at all or only weakly correlated with board scores." He/she allowed for the possibility of a weak correlation. The study you posted shows that "MCAT scores were weakly associated with Step 2 clinical knowledge scores, and Step 3 scores. MCAT scores were weakly to moderately associated with Step 1 scores. MCAT scores were not significantly associated with Step 2 clinical skills Integrated Clinical Encounter and Communication and Interpersonal Skills subscores."
The person you're arguing with claimed that the MCAT is either weakly or not at all associated with Step scores. You posted research demonstrating that the MCAT is weakly or not at all associated with most Step scores (with the possible exception of Step 1 which is either weakly or moderately associated), essentially proving his/her point while simultaneously basically calling him/her an idiot.
Relax. You're not as right about this as you think you are. Try to find some middle ground, because you're making some good points but your position is a bit too extreme.
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Sardinia
I don't understand why people are raising such an uproar over Jalby's comments.
Based on the responses I've seen in this thread, it seems like certain posters are taking his comments personally. Anecdotes and personal stories are levied against his comments making it seem like people are projecting themselves as if they were the OP. I think that ultimately this thread has been more about personal ideology than about the OP's circumstances. Adcoms have put conditional statements in what factors would swing their mind.
Overall I think this thread is fascinating. I've stated this before, but I think that people should rely on their own decision making when it comes to evaluating what the best decision is for them. And if they don't know, then they need to do more research because of the onus for their life decisions is completely on their shoulders. Many pre-meds are too eager to encourage post-bac options and running a full gamut of extracurricular activities without making an evaluation of the person in question. It's funny that @Jalby is perhaps the only one who has bothered to make a descriptive evaluation of the opening poster while everyone else has found a reason to segue into divergent topics or relate it to a personal anecdote.
If anything, I think Jalby has contributed the most towards improving the circumstances of the OP because he's actually made a definitive assessment and defended it. If I was the OP, I would thoroughly examine his points and consider how to counter them if you were in an interview. I think that this thread will lead itself to false positives when it comes to personal narrative. Not many people who have pursued a long medical path will come out and admit that it was all a failure and now they are stuck working an undesirable job under undesirable circumstances for the rest of their life. In fact, a majority of pre-meds on this site probably feel like pariahs and believe that becoming a physician will be an end to all of that. It's that strong conviction perhaps which pushes them to continue through a cycle of admissions.
Just remember, don't go to the Caribbean.
Based on the responses I've seen in this thread, it seems like certain posters are taking his comments personally. Anecdotes and personal stories are levied against his comments making it seem like people are projecting themselves as if they were the OP. I think that ultimately this thread has been more about personal ideology than about the OP's circumstances. Adcoms have put conditional statements in what factors would swing their mind.
Overall I think this thread is fascinating. I've stated this before, but I think that people should rely on their own decision making when it comes to evaluating what the best decision is for them. And if they don't know, then they need to do more research because of the onus for their life decisions is completely on their shoulders. Many pre-meds are too eager to encourage post-bac options and running a full gamut of extracurricular activities without making an evaluation of the person in question. It's funny that @Jalby is perhaps the only one who has bothered to make a descriptive evaluation of the opening poster while everyone else has found a reason to segue into divergent topics or relate it to a personal anecdote.
If anything, I think Jalby has contributed the most towards improving the circumstances of the OP because he's actually made a definitive assessment and defended it. If I was the OP, I would thoroughly examine his points and consider how to counter them if you were in an interview. I think that this thread will lead itself to false positives when it comes to personal narrative. Not many people who have pursued a long medical path will come out and admit that it was all a failure and now they are stuck working an undesirable job under undesirable circumstances for the rest of their life. In fact, a majority of pre-meds on this site probably feel like pariahs and believe that becoming a physician will be an end to all of that. It's that strong conviction perhaps which pushes them to continue through a cycle of admissions.
Just remember, don't go to the Caribbean.
Oook.. or don't take the suggestion. we're done here.
