Am I being blackmailed? LOR?

[cryhavoc]

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I've been working at a place for a year for experience at great personal sacrifice to myself (time, lots of it). The only perceived benefit I get is a LOR. Recently, the students who work at this place have been told that unless we do extreme hours at this place, those of us that do not will not be given "better recommendations". We've also been told that our other activities, such as volunteering, were getting in the way of us volunteering at this lab.

I basically feel like I am being blackmailed. This was supposed to be my best LOR because I've worked so hard there, and now, unless I work such extreme hours that I can barely study (my grades have been negatively affected), I am being told I'm going to basically get a bad LOR.

Am I trapped?

 

[s5260205]

Is this a lab? Who will be giving you the LOR? Most DO schools require LORs from professors who have taught you in a course and not research supervisor. If you found yourself unable to commit more hours, you should communicate with your supervisor.

 

[cryhavoc]

I know it isn't required but I've been there so long and done very well at my job so I feel, given that I did it for free, not a wage, that I deserve a positive LOR. I already communicated I could no longer operate at the extreme hours and was met with passive aggressive hints that my LOR would be inferior.

I feel like the protagonist in a Charles Dickens novel.

 

[s5260205]

Since the LOR is not required, I would just continue working there at your own pace. Assuming you are applying next cycle, once you get your acceptance (as early as September), you could just quit and don't look back.

 

[AlteredScale]

I know it isn't required but I've been there so long and done very well at my job so I feel, given that I did it for free, not a wage, that I deserve a positive LOR. I already communicated I could no longer operate at the extreme hours and was met with passive aggressive hints that my LOR would be inferior.

I feel like the protagonist in a Charles Dickens novel.

Don't use it. You do not want to risk a poor LOR and the risk here is too high.

A research LOR is unnecessary for DO schools. You can back your research through whatever work you did either through a paper, presentation at a conference, or poster.

On an additional note, can you describe just how extreme these hours are that your PI is requiring for a decent LOR?

 

[IslandStyle808]

Grades >>> LOR. If you really like the work there, then work at your own pace and don't get the LOR. Otherwise if you feel miserable, quit and do something else (I kind of am taking the extreme view here, I know). As mentioned by AlteredSacle, research is not necessary for DO schools vs. volunteering.

 

[cryhavoc]

My grades are more important to me, I don't think she is allowed to give a bad LOR without informing us, as we signed a contract to that effect. I just think I moved mountains this last year and it is going to suck if I get a mediocre one after all the time and effort I put in.

My only questions is, what is a normal amount of time devoted to a a lab per week for a full-time student who volunteers, and has to study for science course?

 

[IncuriousGeorge]

I spend 10 hours/week (many weeks more) for 3 years in undergrad.

 

[cryhavoc]

Okay, she's requiring as much as 18-22 hours a week, even when students have midterm weeks. And it isn't like we're working on our own studies and getting publications, we're unpaid grunts. I occasionally have an 8 hour week, but the 18-22 is more normal.

 

[AlteredScale]

Okay, she's requiring as much as 18-22 hours a week, even when students have midterm weeks. And it isn't like we're working on our own studies and getting publications, we're unpaid grunts. I occasionally have an 8 hour week, but the 18-22 is more normal.

I think you might be overthinking this. A mediocre LOR that is going to say "they worked in my lab and help out, she's good" is not even worth getting.

Since you feel that working in a lab 18-22 hrs a week while in midterms is unreasonable and you already told them this, then your chances of receiving an LOR that is substantial to your application is basically nonexistent with this writer.

We aren't talking about a negative LOR. But a mediocre does absolutely nothing and MAY even hurt you because you can be perceived an applicant who waited to the last minute to ask for LOR's and did not actually establish good rapport with those writers.

But as a reminder again, an LOR from a research mentor is NOT necessary in any means for DO schools unless you are considering a DO/PhD program.

 

[cryhavoc]

I know, but I go to a large school. So I'm not best friends with all my professors. I was hoping for a good LOR from my research and volunteering for what I will assume will be average LOR from science professors.

 

[referee3]

18-22 is standard. I wouldn't want my students there any less. I averaged about 30-35 as an undergrad.

 

[deleted480308]

It's not blackmail, relax

 

[MightBeACylon439]

This doesn't meet the definition of blackmail. It's borderline coercive and sounds slightly manipulative. I'd say it meets the definition of "s$&!ty people doing s$&@ty things."

It's a bad situation, and if I were you I would bite the bullet and gracefully remove myself from it.

 

[petyr_baelish]

That is a huge time commitment. I don't think it's normal. It's volunteer work and like you said, you aren't getting your name on a paper. Let a month go by and come up with a legitimate reason why you have to leave and try to give notice so you can go on positive terms. Then find a place that appreciates you.

 

[UBC2014]

18-22 is standard. I wouldn't want my students there any less. I averaged about 30-35 as an undergrad.

Are you being sarcastic?

That isn't standard.

No one should be doing that much work for free as a unpaid grunt - unless you're getting course credit(towards an honours thesis) or being paid as a research associate.

 

[referee3]

Are you being sarcastic?

That isn't standard.

No one should be doing that much work for free as a unpaid grunt - unless you're getting course credit(towards an honours thesis) or being paid as a research associate.

I was getting credit. Guess that's what I meant. There are not many circumstances as an undergrad when you wouldn't at least be able to get credit for your work.

 

[s5260205]

As others have said, 18-22 hours per week is f**king bull****. No PI should expect their students to commit these hours without publication or payment. I would seriously consider quitting this position if you can find something better, such as a research project.

I should add that I personally know some Master's students who do this kind of bull****, hiring 5 undergraduate students to do all his experiments and even write his papers for him. I haven't heard of any professor doing this however.

 

[Goro]

If volunteer, you are indeed owed a good LOR. BUT, your grades are not worth a LOR. It does seem like you're being blackmailed, and it's time to cut your losses and bail.

teaching moment: grades come first!

I've been working at a place for a year for experience at great personal sacrifice to myself (time, lots of it). The only perceived benefit I get is a LOR. Recently, the students who work at this place have been told that unless we do extreme hours at this place, those of us that do not will not be given "better recommendations". We've also been told that our other activities, such as volunteering, were getting in the way of us volunteering at this lab.

I basically feel like I am being blackmailed. This was supposed to be my best LOR because I've worked so hard there, and now, unless I work such extreme hours that I can barely study (my grades have been negatively affected), I am being told I'm going to basically get a bad LOR.

Am I trapped?

 

[Goro]

This is unreasonable. Complain to her Dep't Chair, and your Dean.

Okay, she's requiring as much as 18-22 hours a week, even when students have midterm weeks. And it isn't like we're working on our own studies and getting publications, we're unpaid grunts. I occasionally have an 8 hour week, but the 18-22 is more normal.

Now it's time to start making friends with them. These are the LORs that will count because they can attest to your diligence and intellect. A PI will just say you were a great technician and had great work ethic.

I know, but I go to a large school. So I'm not best friends with all my professors. I was hoping for a good LOR from my research and volunteering for what I will assume will be average LOR from science professors.

 

[cryhavoc]

Any tips? I was going to email a bunch of my old professors to ask for a meeting so I could ask for LOR's. I'm not sure how to go about finding a time that works for them that also works for me. Is it rude to include my availability in the email?

 

[feeling-dizzy]

You have to stand up to those ppl who are taking advantage of desperate premed for LOR. It is "volunteering" for crying out loud, should not let yourself working like in a sweatshop like that. I would bring the issue to the dean or higher supervisor. You worked hard , and you are owed a good LOR. The only time I "volunteer" at the research lab , my research supervisor/instructor gave me all "A" and a nice LOR too. For DO shadowing, the doctors also are very nice too and gave me the best LOR also. So do not let ppl bully you around; there are lot of research opportunities out there, do not stick to the bad ones.

 

[cryhavoc]

I am applying soon so I don't really have a lot of options. I'm trying to put up with it, get my letter in and then move away so that I can no longer continue to volunteer at the lab.

 

[AlteredScale]

What have you done in this lab? What projects are you working on and what techniques are you using?

 

[IslandStyle808]

I have seen a couple of the posters here mention about taking it to the chair or dean. If you do go this route OP, be prepare to leave the lab. I have never seen one conflict end well for those that went to either a chair or dean. In a worst case scenario, it has even hurt the student and at best may have not done much for them.

 

[UBC2014]

I was getting credit. Guess that's what I meant. There are not many circumstances as an undergrad when you wouldn't at least be able to get credit for your work.

Even then, 30 hours a week is definitely a tough sell - unless you were getting 3-4 courses worth of credits.

 

[moonwake]

I've been working at a place for a year for experience at great personal sacrifice to myself (time, lots of it). The only perceived benefit I get is a LOR. Recently, the students who work at this place have been told that unless we do extreme hours at this place, those of us that do not will not be given "better recommendations". We've also been told that our other activities, such as volunteering, were getting in the way of us volunteering at this lab.

I basically feel like I am being blackmailed. This was supposed to be my best LOR because I've worked so hard there, and now, unless I work such extreme hours that I can barely study (my grades have been negatively affected), I am being told I'm going to basically get a bad LOR.

Am I trapped?

Have you considered being a TA? Even if it's unofficial you could try and offer tutoring if the teacher teaches other classes (like you're in ochem, you teach gen chem or something). You don't always have to do research for LOR. Sometimes you literally can just ask the teach "what do I need to do to get a LOR" and they'll be like clean my house or something random. If you can suck it up and just ask sometimes you'll get lucky.

 

[efle]

Even then, 30 hours a week is definitely a tough sell - unless you were getting 3-4 courses worth of credits.

30 hrs/week isn't outrageous if it's their main (only?) big EC, lots of people do stuff like 12 hr/week sports + 12 hr/week lab + 6 hr/week volunteerism (and some have + part time work from there). Even with a solid other 12-15 credits taking up 40 hrs/week it'd be less than what residents survive !

 

[Vespasian]

My only questions is, what is a normal amount of time devoted to a a lab per week for a full-time student who volunteers, and has to study for science course?

I would say about 9-12 hours max if you're volunteering. I worked in a lab for a year and we had DIS students who would choose how many credit hours the course was worth (1-4 credit hours) and then they'd spend about 2-3 hours in the lab per credit hour. Other students just volunteered hoping for a LOR and worked about 5 hours a week.

I spent about 20-25 hours in the lab a week and ended up with co-authorships (nothing remarkable), presenting at two conferences, getting two great LORs and a ton of awesome cardiovascular physiology training. The fact that I put in those crazy hours extra enabled me to parlay a DIS opportunity into learning some really unique skills. While hard work can certainly open doors (and it sounds like you've been working hard) they might be taking advantage of you.

If it's negatively impacting your grade I would suggest putting the amount of time in that allows you to study more. As others have mentioned your grades are more important than a single LOR or a bit of research experience.

 

[UBC2014]

30 hrs/week isn't outrageous if it's their main (only?) big EC, lots of people do stuff like 12 hr/week sports + 12 hr/week lab + 6 hr/week volunteerism (and some have + part time work from there). Even with a solid other 12-15 credits taking up 40 hrs/week it'd be less than what residents survive !

That's not the point. The point was it being an expectation from the PI.