Am I considered a competitive candidate?

[SuctionPlease123]

Hello,

I took my second DAT this early December, and the change of my scores are as follows (1st -> 2nd): Bio: 16 -> 18, Gen chem: 23 -> 20, Ochem: 20 -> 19, RC: 18 -> 17, QR: 18 -> 19, PAT: 16 -> 18, TS: 19 -> 19, AA: 19 -> 19. I don't know if I did better on my second one or not because my TS and AA were the same. I really hated how I scored lower on gen chem and RC this time. Sure I improved on PAT, QR and Bio, but I'm not sure if schools would think that it's around the same and not an improvement. I graduated as a biochem major in 2016, but I decided to take some more courses until 2017 for my backup plan (medical technology). I went to a community college before transferring to a 4-year-univeristy. My overall GPA at the community college was 3.95 or 3.91. I got 1 B for an English class (it was only 6 months after I moved to the US) and the rest were A, which included gen chem 101&102, bio 101&102, calc 1&2, physics 101, and English 101&102. I didn't do as well in the 4-year-uni, hence my overall GPA in the end was only about 3.61 or 3.65 and my science GPA was around 3.5. I got A for physics 102 and ochem 1&2. What hurt me were physical chemistry 2, biochem 2, medical microbiology. I got C in all of them and D for med micro, so I had to retake med micro after i graduated for my backup plan and ended up with a C. I have around 100 hours of shadowing hours, 200+ hours of volunteering at the hospital, some volunteering hours at an assisted living place, and around 2 years of biochem research at my uni. I'm planning to do some more shadowing.

I plan on applying for the schools in 2020 for the 2021 cycle. Do you guys think I have a chance to get accepted into a dental school? Am I a competitive candidate? My first three choices are USC, WesternU and Touro dental schools.

Thank you.

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[Bigjt1420]

Why is USC your first choice? Your first, second, and third choices should be the cheapest Dental schools in the country.

That said, you have a chance, yeah. Your GPA could be higher but it's certainly not low. That's a huge bummer that you didn't do better on your DAT. I know they say the national average is an 18, but as dental schools get more and more competitive, I feel that the new average is closer to a 19, so you're 1 among many in that category. Apply early, cast a broad net at CHEAP schools (again, do you want to go to USC for $500K+ after interest or a different school for $300K+ interest for the same exact degree), and good luck

 

[ag1003]

It seems that your DAT breakdown is more consistent now than before; 19 is a good score and it’s certainly better to have gone down a couple points in GC if it means you no longer have those 16’s. One issue maybe be that although your GPA is still good, you didn’t have an upward trend, and some schools including touro do take those things into consideration. The best thing you can do now is use your time wisely by boosting your resume- get those shadowing hours in and take a couple post bacc classes if you can ace them. I’m sure you’ll do great, you seem to be very well rounded!!

 

[SuctionPlease123]

Why is USC your first choice? Your first, second, and third choices should be the cheapest Dental schools in the country.

That said, you have a chance, yeah. Your GPA could be higher but it's certainly not low. That's a huge bummer that you didn't do better on your DAT. I know they say the national average is an 18, but as dental schools get more and more competitive, I feel that the new average is closer to a 19, so you're 1 among many in that category. Apply early, cast a broad net at CHEAP schools (again, do you want to go to USC for $500K+ after interest or a different school for $300K+ interest for the same exact degree), and good luck

Thank you, Bigjt. I picked USC because I live only like 30 minutes away more or less, so I was thinking that I could save some expenses on room and board. I would make UCLA my first choice, but my DAT score and GPA are not suited for it. I will look more into out of state cheaper schools that are within my grasp with my stats for sure.

 

[artist2022]

As much as it will suck to hear this, I don't think you are a very competitive candidate at the moment. While your extracurriculars make you well-rounded, your academic stats are not up to par, and academic stats are just two things:
1) DAT - While you didn't do poorly your second time around, you didn't really improve much either. Your AA and TS both stayed exactly the same. 19 is about the average of all test takers, whereas 21 is about the average of those that matriculate into dental school. So, based on DAT alone, you're below average and not very competitive.
2) GPA - You did better at the CC than you did at the 4 year university, and you don't have an upward trend. This would be concerning for dental schools I feel like, because there are quite a few schools that don't accept CC units, and then yet others who don't look favorably upon them because of the notion that CCs are easier than 4 year universities. Your GPA was nearly perfect at the CC, and then looks like it plummeted down when you transferred, which might look like you can't handle a rigorous curriculum.

Your overall GPAs aren't that bad, but just keep the above in mind because this is what schools may think when they look at your academic record. Also, in your GPA calculations, did you include the D that you retook? Because AADSAS does not do grade replacement, so both the D and the C will count -- keep this in mind too.

What sucks is that while your GPAs aren't that bad, your DAT score currently doesn't showcase you as someone who can survive dental school. Dental schools use the DAT as an equalizer, since it's standardized and everyone has to take it, because GPAs aren't that reliable (easy schools vs. harder schools, weird trends, etc). And like I said before, the 19 is below average. While people do get in with 19's, it's not very common and those applicants get into crazy, expensive private schools that aren't as picky on stats, and then they're stuck paying off that debt for the rest of their life.

Going forward, I'd take your DAT for a third time and really improve as much as you possibly can. Get your AA and TS above a 21. I think improving your DAT is a shorter and "easier" way of proving to dental schools you are capable of surviving dental school, rather than trying to have an upward trend in your GPA by doing a post-bacc or a Masters.

I think if you apply early next cycle, to schools that are OOS friendly and are within your range of stats, you may have a chance, but I'd retake your DAT to give yourself the best possible chance. Good luck

 

[flossy_p]

you will most likely go through 2 (or 2+) application cycles and will be successful on your second (or subsequent) try.

don't worry there are plenty of ppl who get in with 19 DAT (even lower scores too) but adcoms saw something that those applicants were able to contribute to the class/fit their school or whatever.

so essentially, depends on a lot of factors, but you are not out of the running. Otherwise, up your scores so you have a higher chance and won't have to go through 2+ cycles lol

you'll start to realize that as adcom, after a certain point, all those numbers will start to blend and overlap (along with extracurriculars) and then they'll begin to eliminate based on whatever deficiencies they find/can point out (stats being the first thing they use to eliminate bc dental school--let alone any professional school--is NOT a ballpark) within the remaining potential candidates to arrive at whatever best overall applicant that is left to admit (aka survival of fittest + tons of other factors taken into account + interview (to figure out if you aren't a crazy LOL!).

not doing well in your pre-req / upper-div recommended class prior to admission (usu. a lower gpa) just means that they'll want you to re-take those classes and ACE them before matriculating so that there's a higher chance you won't fail those classes that go at 3x the speed when you do attend d. school (aka you can survive and graduate).
So, lower gpa = you'll need to take these classes before admission until they can see and feel that you are able to survive their curriculum.

These ppl have been doing it many years and they know how their own school works and which applicant is the most qualified to chose from according to what their school needs/wants. But honestly, most ppl applying for these programs are pretty qualified candidates and most all have the will and determination to be dentists, so YMMV.

as long as you don't quit this arduous and long journey, then you will get in eventually. You'll just have to go through more time and $$$ compared to others who "played the game" right the first time.

 

[SuctionPlease123]

It seems that your DAT breakdown is more consistent now than before; 19 is a good score and it’s certainly better to have gone down a couple points in GC if it means you no longer have those 16’s. One issue maybe be that although your GPA is still good, you didn’t have an upward trend, and some schools including touro do take those things into consideration. The best thing you can do now is use your time wisely by boosting your resume- get those shadowing hours in and take a couple post bacc classes if you can ace them. I’m sure you’ll do great, you seem to be very well rounded!!

Thank you for your feedback, Ag. That's true that some schools like to see upward trend. But sometimes or most of the times rather, the materials at the universities get harder and not easier as we progress. This doesn't even consider the way the teachers teach and/or the way they test you. I might sound bitter on this part, but I'm not kidding that this physical chemistry professor of mine legit read power points word by word for this very abstract course, and there were only 2 exams (midterm and final) and an exam only consists of 3 questions. 1 question wrong, that's already 66.67. I'm not sure if the dental schools ever consider or think about that.

 

[SuctionPlease123]

As much as it will suck to hear this, I don't think you are a very competitive candidate at the moment. While your extracurriculars make you well-rounded, your academic stats are not up to par, and academic stats are just two things:
1) DAT - While you didn't do poorly your second time around, you didn't really improve much either. Your AA and TS both stayed exactly the same. 19 is about the average of all test takers, whereas 21 is about the average of those that matriculate into dental school. So, based on DAT alone, you're below average and not very competitive.
2) GPA - You did better at the CC than you did at the 4 year university, and you don't have an upward trend. This would be concerning for dental schools I feel like, because there are quite a few schools that don't accept CC units, and then yet others who don't look favorably upon them because of the notion that CCs are easier than 4 year universities. Your GPA was nearly perfect at the CC, and then looks like it plummeted down when you transferred, which might look like you can't handle a rigorous curriculum.

Your overall GPAs aren't that bad, but just keep the above in mind because this is what schools may think when they look at your academic record. Also, in your GPA calculations, did you include the D that you retook? Because AADSAS does not do grade replacement, so both the D and the C will count -- keep this in mind too.

What sucks is that while your GPAs aren't that bad, your DAT score currently doesn't showcase you as someone who can survive dental school. Dental schools use the DAT as an equalizer, since it's standardized and everyone has to take it, because GPAs aren't that reliable (easy schools vs. harder schools, weird trends, etc). And like I said before, the 19 is below average. While people do get in with 19's, it's not very common and those applicants get into crazy, expensive private schools that aren't as picky on stats, and then they're stuck paying off that debt for the rest of their life.

Going forward, I'd take your DAT for a third time and really improve as much as you possibly can. Get your AA and TS above a 21. I think improving your DAT is a shorter and "easier" way of proving to dental schools you are capable of surviving dental school, rather than trying to have an upward trend in your GPA by doing a post-bacc or a Masters.

I think if you apply early next cycle, to schools that are OOS friendly and are within your range of stats, you may have a chance, but I'd retake your DAT to give yourself the best possible chance. Good luck

Thank you for the honest feedback, Mod. Artist. It hurt to hear or read about the truth, but I definitely understand what you were trying to tell me. Better score, higher chance of getting in. I will definitely consider retaking for a third time.

Furthermore, sure, a few schools or even people think that CC curriculum are "easier", but I went to CC simply because I wanted to save money and did not have the money to go straight into 4-year-uni. I did not know anything about FAFSA either.
Regarding my downward trend, biochemistry is probably or most likely the hardest major at my school at least in the science department (excluding engineering) to thrive in. Some of my classmates switched to bio major and could graduate with higher GPA than if they were to stay as a biochem major. Bio major at my uni did not require second semester biochem, and did not need to take physical chemistry with a professor that would just read power point word by word for a very abstract course and expecting people to do well on his tests that only have 3 questions per test (midterm and final only). Basically 1 question wrong on midterm and 1 on final, you get a C-. I also messed up on my biochem 2 class on my final... I had a solid B, then I misread 2 big questions on the final and got exactly the most point questions wrong. These are 4 unit courses each; it tanked my GPA.

I know I was basically at "fault" for picking biochem as my major and/or doing bad on some of the classes, but I'm not sure if dental schools even think or consider that some majors are harder, maybe a lot harder to get or maintain 3.8-3.9 GPA on while doing research at the same time during the last two years of the program. While we are on this subject, do you think I should mention this to schools about why I went a little bit down hill in my last year or so?

 

[artist2022]

Furthermore, sure, a few schools or even people think that CC curriculum are "easier", but I went to CC simply because I wanted to save money and did not have the money to go straight into 4-year-uni.

Yeah I understand you might've had your reasons, but that's what most graduate schools think, that CCs are easier than 4 year universities.

but I'm not sure if dental schools even think or consider that some majors are harder

They do consider this. They look at your DAT scores. Dental schools don't know if one school was harder than another, or if one major was harder than another. What if person X went to school X where they got As on every single course and ended up with a 3.9+ GPA, and person Y went to school Y where every class was so insanely difficult that they only ended up with a 3.2 GPA, trying their very best? Or let's compare person A who was a history major and only took the prereqs and had a high sGPA, as compared to person B, a biomedical engineering major who took the prereqs AND other hard science engineering courses and had a low sGPA? How would schools know which candidate was stronger? The DAT. That's why I said it was an equalizer - it's standardized, and evvvvvvvvveryone has to take it. GPAs and their trends only tell you so much, and that's why schools hold the DAT in pretty high regard.

While we are on this subject, do you think I should mention this to schools about why I went a little bit down hill in my last year or so?

Usually schools have a section on their supplemental applications where you can describe things like this. Or, you can mention it in your PS and how you plan to work forward from it, **as long as you don't come off as making excuses**. That's the most important thing. You have to own it and show that you can move forward from it and that you can handle the rigorous courseload that comes with dental school, because it is not easy by any means, and schools want to know you can and will survive it.

 

[SuctionPlease123]

you will most likely go through 2 (or 2+) application cycles and will be successful on your second (or subsequent) try.

don't worry there are plenty of ppl who get in with 19 DAT (even lower scores too) but adcoms saw something that those applicants were able to contribute to the class/fit their school or whatever.

so essentially, depends on a lot of factors, but you are not out of the running. Otherwise, up your scores so you have a higher chance and won't have to go through 2+ cycles lol

you'll start to realize that as adcom, after a certain point, all those numbers will start to blend and overlap (along with extracurriculars) and then they'll begin to eliminate based on whatever deficiencies they find/can point out (stats being the first thing they use to eliminate bc dental school--let alone any professional school--is NOT a ballpark) within the remaining potential candidates to arrive at whatever best overall applicant that is left to admit (aka survival of fittest + tons of other factors taken into account + interview (to figure out if you aren't a crazy LOL!).

not doing well in your pre-req / upper-div recommended class prior to admission (usu. a lower gpa) just means that they'll want you to re-take those classes and ACE them before matriculating so that there's a higher chance you won't fail those classes that go at 3x the speed when you do attend d. school (aka you can survive and graduate).
So, lower gpa = you'll need to take these classes before admission until they can see and feel that you are able to survive their curriculum.

These ppl have been doing it many years and they know how their own school works and which applicant is the most qualified to chose from according to what their school needs/wants. But honestly, most ppl applying for these programs are pretty qualified candidates and most all have the will and determination to be dentists, so YMMV.

as long as you don't quit this arduous and long journey, then you will get in eventually. You'll just have to go through more time and $$$ compared to others who "played the game" right the first time.

Thank you, Chocopiezzz, for your feedback. I'm definitely going to get more shadowing and volunteering hours in, and I might consider retaking the DAT.

I'm not crazy if I'm planning to cook meth and make $$$ so I don't have to take loans for dental school (if I get accepted), right? I'm sorry, too much Breaking Bad hahaha...

 

[SuctionPlease123]

Yeah I understand you might've had your reasons, but that's what most graduate schools think, that CCs are easier than 4 year universities.

They do consider this. They look at your DAT scores. Dental schools don't know if one school was harder than another, or if one major was harder than another. What if person X went to school X where they got As on every single course and ended up with a 3.9+ GPA, and person Y went to school Y where every class was so insanely difficult that they only ended up with a 3.2 GPA, trying their very best? Or let's compare person A who was a history major and only took the prereqs and had a high sGPA, as compared to person B, a biomedical engineering major who took the prereqs AND other hard science engineering courses and had a low sGPA? How would schools know which candidate was stronger? The DAT. That's why I said it was an equalizer - it's standardized, and evvvvvvvvveryone has to take it. GPAs and their trends only tell you so much, and that's why schools hold the DAT in pretty high regard.

Usually schools have a section on their supplemental applications where you can describe things like this. Or, you can mention it in your PS and how you plan to work forward from it, **as long as you don't come off as making excuses**. That's the most important thing. You have to own it and show that you can move forward from it and that you can handle the rigorous courseload that comes with dental school, because it is not easy by any means, and schools want to know you can and will survive it.

Got it, Mod. Artist. Thanks again for your feedback and advice.