Am I crazy?

[Momzy]

Hi everybody!

I'm new here and this is my first post but I'm just gonna go ahead and crash right in. I don't suppose anybody needs any formal niceties, right?

Anyway, I'm a nontraditional student: 27, married mom of two three-year-olds, started college in 2009 and then my life exploded and I R.U.I.N.E.D. my GPA because of undiagnosed physical/mental health issues (that I now have under control). I managed to pull off what my school calls an Academic Fresh Start. Basically, all my F's and otherwise non-passing grades have been deleted as of last year so I have taken a few classes since then and done really well so far but my GPA is still 2.88 (should go up by August as I'm in summer classes but not by much).

I came back to school last year in summer as a Japanese major, had to sit out the fall semester due to financial aid issues, and paid my way through spring semester as a Japanese and Spanish double major with a minor in Linguistics. I decided to drop Spanish and Linguistics and add Biology with a concentration in Genetics and Biotechnology. I want to do an MSTP after graduating.

Right now, I have basically all of my gen ed requirements fulfilled but I have no science classes yet. My advisor tried to suggest that a bio major will make me graduate "late" and suggested I take bio/chem minors instead but those don't cover much at my school and I personally want to take all the classes in the bio major so I am pursuing that. She doesn't like that so much so she asked me to make a spreadsheet mapping out all my classes until graduation. So I did.

I took 18 hours this past spring (two levels simultaneously of Japanese, a Japanese culture class, intermediate Spanish, beginner German and linguistic anthropology) and I got 3 A's and 3 B's without ever needing to study because I'm a language nerd-sponge I guess?

Anyway, the schedule I have come up with thus far is pretty packed. I'M personally really freaking excited about all these classes but I've had one med student and one former business major suggest spreading the classes out and just staying in school longer instead.

So I wanted to share my schedule here, see if anybody else has done it like me, if you possibly died a little or a lot, etc etc. I should maybe mention that my little family will be living with my in-laws for the foreseeable future so I won't have to worry much about extra stressors like rent (I have some bills but eh, that's life) and utilities.

Should I cut back?

If not (or even, I guess, if so) when should I take the MCAT? If I wanted to matriculate into a program the semester after graduating undergrad (summer 2020 according to my plan), I would have to apply this time next year, wouldn't I?

Anyway, thanks for reading and looking:

FALL 18
BIOL 1110/1111 - General Biology
CHEM 1110/1111 - General Chemistry
MATH 1730 - Pre-Cal
JAPN 2020 - Intermediate Japanese II
JAPN 3010 - Advanced Japanese I
18 HRS

SPRING 19
MATH 1910 - Calculus
BIOL 1120/1121 - General Bio 2
CHEM 1120/1121 - General Chem 2
JAPN 3020 - Advanced Japanese II
JAPN 3015 - Business Japanese I
18 HRS

SUMMER 19
BIOL 3250/3251- Genetics
BIOL 2230/2231 - Microbiology
CHEM 3010/3011 - Organic Chemistry
HUM 2610 - Foreign Lit in Translation
15 HRS

FALL 19
JAPN 3030 - Advanced III
BIOL 1000 - Intro to Bio Major
BIOL 3500 - Evolution
BIOL 4110/4111 - General Physiology
JAPN 4010 - Japanese Topics in Language and Culture
JAPN 4040 - Advanced Japanese Context I
17 HRS

SPRING 20
JAPN 3035 - Business Japanese II
BIOL 4210/4211 - Cell and Molecular Biology
BIOL 4460/4461 - Human Genetics
BIOL 4350/4351 - Biometry
JAPN 4020 - Modern Japanese Lit
17 HRS

SUMMER 20
BIOL 4550 - Biotechnology
BIOL 4450 - Molecular Genetics
BIOL 4200 - Senior Seminar
BIOL 3400/3401 - General Ecology
12 HRS​

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[esob]

Don't say super nontraditional if you are under 40. I can't read any further until you fix that

 

[Momzy]

Don't say super nontraditional if you are under 40. I can't read any further until you fix that

Fixed! That actually makes me feel way better. Sometimes with my classmates I feel like Steve Buscemi with the "How do you do, fellow kids?"

 

[esob]

Fixed! That actually makes me feel way better. Sometimes with my classmates I feel like Steve Buscemi with the "How do you do, fellow kids?"

haha, ok, so, 1st things first:

- The academic fresh start at your institution won't help you for med school. There is only one true academic fresh start program and that is in Tx and it is only for courses that are more than 10 years old AND it only applies to Texas public schools. TLDR: you are stuck with all of your failing grades.

- The adage is, reinvention is a marathon, not a sprint. You will be better off spreading your plan out so that you can ace all of your classes and taking plenty of time to prep for the MCAT. If that adds 1 - 2 years to your plan, that may be your only chance at med school. Prepping for the MCAT is a full-time job for 3 months and filling out applications is a full-time job for another couple of months. You will need to have both completed by early summer a full 12 months before you would actually graduate.

 

[Dullhead]

Fixed! That actually makes me feel way better. Sometimes with my classmates I feel like Steve Buscemi with the "How do you do, fellow kids?"

I'm another super non-trad like @esob and agree that age 27 does not qualify for "super". Does feeling like Buscemi actually hold you back from meaningful interactions with your classmates? Do you feel like this lack of interaction is holding you back? If yes, reply here and I will post my experiences.

 

[popopopop]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see physics, ochem2, or even biochem? If you want to do all the language classes, I would spread this out longer. How will you fit volunteering/shadowing or other extracurriculars?

 

[BobbyKoch]

you'll need as many As as possible, definitely take that into consideration. business Japanese may not be a priority.

you would benefit from taking biochem prior to the mcat and its required by many schools. plus, it's fascinating. best of luck!

 

[sunshinefl]

Okay so there’s a lot going on here. To start, don’t do the biology as a major. Add it as a minor if anything. But even that isn’t necessary. You can (probably, unless your school has weird policies or bars access) take med school pre-reqs along side your major. Because right now you have classes that are: some are useless for medical school, some could be helpful but aren’t being looked for by medical schools, some are recommended, and only some are required. Even then as the last poster said you are missing some staple pre-reqs like physics 1, physics 2, orgo 2, And biochemistry. Also, you haven’t taken any science yet and don’t realize how hard multiple sciences with their labs can be simultaneously. Right now your plan and course outline needs to be re-worked for sure.

 

[sunshinefl]

Oh and as another poster said, your school may do its own fresh start for their GPA calculations, but medical school admissions doesn’t forgive or forget old grades. (Outside of the Texas fresh start which is for Texas residents from Texas schools with a 10 year gap.)

 

[rdyotz]

I agree with what everyone else has said:

1) Spread it out. You are still young compared to those starting med school in their 50s.

2) You are not used to science classes & labs yet, so I will give you some of my experiences. I had labs that required 15 minutes a week outside of lab, and I have had some that require 5 hours a week outside of class writing reports and studying. These labs were more difficult than lecture, and I would spend more time on then labs than I would for lecture stuff.

3) Drop the double major, it will not give you a leg up in admissions, and will require you to take way more additional classes that aren't helpful (except to raise GPA, which at this point, depending on how many credits you have taken, probably won't move too much with each class).

4) All your old grades will still count in admissions (unless you are from Texas applying to Texas schools and your grades are over 10 years old).

5) You will need physics I & 2, organic chem 2 (some schools allow you to replace with biochemestry), and biochemistry. You may also need other pre-requisite classes depending on each individual school you apply to.

6) You need to get more As. You said you got 3 As and 3 Bs without studying, which is unacceptable to raising your GPA. If you would have studied, then you could have gotten straight As. You better learn how to start studying as med school will throw you into the fire.

7) Hopefully your spouse and kids are on board with this long process, as not having their full support makes this a much harder process.

8) I am not sure if calculus is part of your Japanese major, if not I wouldn't take it (often a big time commitment for many students) and do a statistics class instead. Many med schools have dropped the calculus pre-req (not all though), and many have added statistics as a pre-req or highly recommended course.

9) Looking at your schedule, you will not be able to matriculate in 2020. You really should take each of the MCAT 'required' classes (BIO I&2, OCHEM I&2, GCHM I&2, PHYSICS I&2, BIOCHEM) before taking such an important test. In order to matriculate in 2020, you will need to take the MCAT in early summer 2019 to apply by July 2019. Some adcoms say the application should be considered a full time job for 3 months. Which, means you would not have much time to take classes, take care of kids, apply, etc. Your schedule would not even allow sufficient time to study for the MCAT, sure some people only study a couple weeks, but the average is about 3 months, and some going as high as 6 months.

10) Figure out where your GPA is with all included Fs, somewhere there is an AMCAS GPA Calculator which will help with this.

 

[Momzy]

- The academic fresh start at your institution won't help you for med school. There is only one true academic fresh start program and that is in Tx and it is only for courses that are more than 10 years old AND it only applies to Texas public schools. TLDR: you are stuck with all of your failing grades.

Dang. So, I've seen some schools talking about looking at applications holistically and liking upward trends in grades. My issues previously were undiagnosed and of course untreated mental/physical health issues couple with extenuating circumstances (totaled my car one semester, was kicked out of my home another and had to move, etc. on top of already being unstable healthwise). Would you think that, even with my GPA being absolutely awful prior to getting my health sorted out, I might still be able to get into a program?

I'm another super non-trad like @esob Does feeling like Buscemi actually hold you back from meaningful interactions with your classmates? Do you feel like this lack of interaction is holding you back? If yes, reply here and I will post my experiences.

No, it doesn't hold me back but I'd still be interested in hearing about your experiences regardless!

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see physics, ochem2, or even biochem? If you want to do all the language classes, I would spread this out longer. How will you fit volunteering/shadowing or other extracurriculars?

Yeah, it seems there isn't a major at my school that incorporates physics, adequate bio and chem all together. After reading through a lot of comments here saying the same thing about those missing classes, I'm going through and trying to put together a major/minor combination that satisfies all of those. What I'm seeing online is that a lot of schools are moving away from "requirements" and just having "recommendations", which is helpful I suppose but also makes it kind of more difficult I would think because people, like me, would see that it's not a requirement so we wouldn't take it and perhaps it may be detrimental to our MCAT scores ultimately. But I'll look into how I can get those classes. Financial aid policies just changed this year to where financial aid is only applicable to classes required in your major/minor, so if I want to take extra classes outside of a major/minor, it will be completely out of pocket. As far as volunteering, shadowing/extracurriculars, I will find the time. I can set my schedules for school to be Monday/Wednesday/Friday or Tuesday/Thursday and then I'm free all the other days. I'm currently looking up shadowing and lab opportunities! I know I will be insanely busy, but as of right now, I aim to handle it. Of course, I can adjust my school schedule as I go. Coming here and getting all of this feedback is incredibly helpful!

you'll need as many As as possible, definitely take that into consideration. business Japanese may not be a priority.

you would benefit from taking biochem prior to the mcat and its required by many schools. plus, it's fascinating. best of luck!

Business Japanese is just part of my Japanese major. And thank you! I'm realizing how much of an issue there is with my class schedule lacking things like biochem and am trying to figure out how I can fill that in. Thank you for the well wishes!

...don’t do the biology as a major. Add it as a minor if anything. But even that isn’t necessary. You can (probably, unless your school has weird policies or bars access) take med school pre-reqs along side your major.

I think my school might be one of those weird ones but I'll look into that as an option! It would be much easier to do that than what I'm looking at doing now. I'm a little sad that I would be missing out on a lot of classes I was looking forward to. I could just sign up for the classes anyways but financial aid policies just changed so that financial aid only applies to classes listed as requirements in our majors/minors so anything outside of that would be completely out of pocket. But I will look into more options and see what I can make work!

------------------

Thank you all for all the comments! It's a lot to take in but brought up a lot of excellent points for me to look at, especially about orgo 2, physics and biochem. As I've said to a few, I'm noticing that a lot of schools are moving away from "requirements" and listing things as "recommendations" and some schools take applicants that had no science in their degrees aside from gen ed requirements which blows my mind because of how big of a deal everybody makes these classes out to be for the MCAT. But yes, I'll look more into what my school options are as far as taking those science and math classes. I want to take all of the classes as I think they all sound fantastic.

As far as the comments about my GPA, does anybody know how med schools view extenuating circumstances/health issues? To give a brief background of my previous issues:

I dealt with undiagnosed/untreated physical and mental health issues (depression, generalized anxiety disorder, was recently misdiagnosed with borderline personality disorder but am having a re-evaluation with a neuropsych to assess for autism as it makes the most sense and my daughter was diagnosed on the spectrum last year as well) on top of basically being homeless several times, with no car (I totaled mine, then my subsequent cars continued to die), no home of my own, and constant drama surrounding me because of the places that I had to live in to survive. It all took its toll on my education and I can't get rid of that apparently unless I live in Texas, which I don't. I started college in 2009 and things kept going wrong until I finally stopped trying to go to school in 2013, got my life together and finally went back in spring 2017. I had to sit out the fall because of financial aid issues, paid my way through this past spring and now am finishing up summer classes.

And yes, that is the very, very brief summary. I've seen that some schools say they take a holistic approach and look at the applicant as a whole rather than just by their grades and that they like upward trends, which I have, but I'm just wondering how much they can look past.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Schools will look at your story, but if you are coming in with a cumulative GPA of 2.5, your application won’t have a chance to be explained as people won’t give a look. If you are applying with a 3.1 and an awesome MCAT score, they might look harder and then see good things and may reward you for better grades later. But as stated, all those Fs will be weighed in your GPA so unless you do a massive reinvention, you aren’t going to meet the minimum cutoffs.

Unfortunately there are way more applicants than spots so schools don’t need to even look at every app.

 

[rdyotz]

Many schools, even the ones that say they are completely holistic, have minimum GPA auto-screens at 3.0, meaning if you have less than that, you will be rejected without a human ever seeing your story.

If you have concerns over financial aid, you can always claim a second degree, only do the classes you need, then drop the 2nd degree. Although, most people that go this route have already completed an initial degree, and are just doing pre-reqs or GPA improvement. I am not sure how it works with 2 concurrent degree programs.

 

[Momzy]

Aha, I have found a solution. Make Japanese my minor, so I will only have 4 more Japanese classes left instead of 9 (two of which I am taking this Fall). I can then take inorganic chem I/II, organic chem I/II, physics I/II, and biochem all covered by my school's pre-med program. My school's website is not very neatly organized so I completely missed that information but I found it after looking a little harder after all the comments from you all. That should help at least some. As for my GPA... I'm just going to have to figure it out.

 

[esob]

Just be prepared for a long Journey. If you really want it, it can be done, but it will not be easy. If you make it though, you will probably be a better physician for having been on both sides of the tracks.

 

[Goro]

Hi everybody!

I'm new here and this is my first post but I'm just gonna go ahead and crash right in. I don't suppose anybody needs any formal niceties, right?

Anyway, I'm a nontraditional student: 27, married mom of two three-year-olds, started college in 2009 and then my life exploded and I R.U.I.N.E.D. my GPA because of undiagnosed physical/mental health issues (that I now have under control). I managed to pull off what my school calls an Academic Fresh Start. Basically, all my F's and otherwise non-passing grades have been deleted as of last year so I have taken a few classes since then and done really well so far but my GPA is still 2.88 (should go up by August as I'm in summer classes but not by much).

I came back to school last year in summer as a Japanese major, had to sit out the fall semester due to financial aid issues, and paid my way through spring semester as a Japanese and Spanish double major with a minor in Linguistics. I decided to drop Spanish and Linguistics and add Biology with a concentration in Genetics and Biotechnology. I want to do an MSTP after graduating.

Right now, I have basically all of my gen ed requirements fulfilled but I have no science classes yet. My advisor tried to suggest that a bio major will make me graduate "late" and suggested I take bio/chem minors instead but those don't cover much at my school and I personally want to take all the classes in the bio major so I am pursuing that. She doesn't like that so much so she asked me to make a spreadsheet mapping out all my classes until graduation. So I did.

I took 18 hours this past spring (two levels simultaneously of Japanese, a Japanese culture class, intermediate Spanish, beginner German and linguistic anthropology) and I got 3 A's and 3 B's without ever needing to study because I'm a language nerd-sponge I guess?

Anyway, the schedule I have come up with thus far is pretty packed. I'M personally really freaking excited about all these classes but I've had one med student and one former business major suggest spreading the classes out and just staying in school longer instead.

So I wanted to share my schedule here, see if anybody else has done it like me, if you possibly died a little or a lot, etc etc. I should maybe mention that my little family will be living with my in-laws for the foreseeable future so I won't have to worry much about extra stressors like rent (I have some bills but eh, that's life) and utilities.

Should I cut back?

If not (or even, I guess, if so) when should I take the MCAT? If I wanted to matriculate into a program the semester after graduating undergrad (summer 2020 according to my plan), I would have to apply this time next year, wouldn't I?

Anyway, thanks for reading and looking:

FALL 18
BIOL 1110/1111 - General Biology
CHEM 1110/1111 - General Chemistry
MATH 1730 - Pre-Cal
JAPN 2020 - Intermediate Japanese II
JAPN 3010 - Advanced Japanese I
18 HRS

SPRING 19
MATH 1910 - Calculus
BIOL 1120/1121 - General Bio 2
CHEM 1120/1121 - General Chem 2
JAPN 3020 - Advanced Japanese II
JAPN 3015 - Business Japanese I
18 HRS

SUMMER 19
BIOL 3250/3251- Genetics
BIOL 2230/2231 - Microbiology
CHEM 3010/3011 - Organic Chemistry
HUM 2610 - Foreign Lit in Translation
15 HRS

FALL 19
JAPN 3030 - Advanced III
BIOL 1000 - Intro to Bio Major
BIOL 3500 - Evolution
BIOL 4110/4111 - General Physiology
JAPN 4010 - Japanese Topics in Language and Culture
JAPN 4040 - Advanced Japanese Context I
17 HRS

SPRING 20
JAPN 3035 - Business Japanese II
BIOL 4210/4211 - Cell and Molecular Biology
BIOL 4460/4461 - Human Genetics
BIOL 4350/4351 - Biometry
JAPN 4020 - Modern Japanese Lit
17 HRS

SUMMER 20
BIOL 4550 - Biotechnology
BIOL 4450 - Molecular Genetics
BIOL 4200 - Senior Seminar
BIOL 3400/3401 - General Ecology
12 HRS​

Go read my post on reinvention, and everything written in this forum by the wise @DrMidlife

 

[Momzy]

Just be prepared for a long Journey. If you really want it, it can be done, but it will not be easy. If you make it though, you will probably be a better physician for having been on both sides of the tracks.

I'm preparing myself for sure. My proposed schedule up above is immediately unraveling and that's alright. A friend of mine suggested a paid internship to me for next summer studying cancer biology in a lab and that sounds freaking fascinating so I may take that summer off completely or, if I can fit any classes in, try to do fewer classes and internship on top (assuming I get into the program). I'm going to spread my classes out a little more to give myself more room for shadowing and volunteering like others have suggested and just try to chill a little bit since the goal is to, y'know, do more school after finishing school. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon so I guess I should just buckle in for the ride.

Go read my post on reinvention, and everything written in this forum by the wise @DrMidlife

Awesome, thank you! I found your post on reinvention but nothing specifically from @DrMidlife? [[EDIT: Ah, I think what you meant was DrMidlife's comments in your reinvention forum. Got it.]] Also, a few questions:

1. In your post, it says to retake failed classes: does that apply to classes not pertaining to my major? I have 39.01 credit hours of F's (I was really sick and stubborn) mostly in art classes that have absolutely zero to do with my major or gen eds.

2. I've been told my a med student friend that me keeping my Japanese major would make me stand out in an applicant pool. Would it be worth keeping my Japanese as a major alongside biology and pre-med classes, or could I make it my minor and still stand out possibly?

3. At 61 attempted hours and a 2.844 GPA so far (NOT including all my F's and my state's apparently meaningless academic fresh start), if I were to manage to get, maybe, a 3.5 GPA and an MCAT score of 513+, would you say there are any schools I possibly could NOT get into? I ask because I'm local to Vanderbilt and am absolutely in love with the school as it's very personally involved in my life. Of course I want to work hard and do my best and accept the best opportunity I can get, but I don't want to delude myself.

4. Is it harder to get into an MSTP MD/PhD program than just MD? Because I really want to do the MSTP MD/PhD.

 

[rdyotz]

I'm preparing myself for sure. My proposed schedule up above is immediately unraveling and that's alright. A friend of mine suggested a paid internship to me for next summer studying cancer biology in a lab and that sounds freaking fascinating so I may take that summer off completely or, if I can fit any classes in, try to do fewer classes and internship on top (assuming I get into the program). I'm going to spread my classes out a little more to give myself more room for shadowing and volunteering like others have suggested and just try to chill a little bit since the goal is to, y'know, do more school after finishing school. I'm not going anywhere anytime soon so I guess I should just buckle in for the ride.



Awesome, thank you! I found your post on reinvention but nothing specifically from @DrMidlife? [[EDIT: Ah, I think what you meant was DrMidlife's comments in your reinvention forum. Got it.]] Also, a few questions:

1. In your post, it says to retake failed classes: does that apply to classes not pertaining to my major? I have 39.01 credit hours of F's (I was really sick and stubborn) mostly in art classes that have absolutely zero to do with my major or gen eds.

2. I've been told my a med student friend that me keeping my Japanese major would make me stand out in an applicant pool. Would it be worth keeping my Japanese as a major alongside biology and pre-med classes, or could I make it my minor and still stand out possibly?

3. At 61 attempted hours and a 2.844 GPA so far (NOT including all my F's and my state's apparently meaningless academic fresh start), if I were to manage to get, maybe, a 3.5 GPA and an MCAT score of 513+, would you say there are any schools I possibly could NOT get into? I ask because I'm local to Vanderbilt and am absolutely in love with the school as it's very personally involved in my life. Of course I want to work hard and do my best and accept the best opportunity I can get, but I don't want to delude myself.

4. Is it harder to get into an MSTP MD/PhD program than just MD? Because I really want to do the MSTP MD/PhD.

Your GPA, including Fs, is around 1.73. In order to bring that up to a 3.0 would take an additional ~125 credits of As. To get to a 3.5 it would take ~350 credits of straight As. Vanderbilt's latest class had a GPA range of 3.1-4.0, with an MCAT range of 70-100th percentile (70th is around 506 I believe). I currently do not have MSAR access, so I can not tell you what their 10th percentile stats are. I would say if you get to a 3.0 with straight As (125 credits worth) that would be enough to let any school know that you are a different person now and dedicated. However, that is 4 more years of undergrad, which will take a long time. You might be better off looking at SMPs and DO schools that typically reward reinvention more.

Combined MD/PhD programs are far more competitive that just MD programs.

 

[Goro]

1. In your post, it says to retake failed classes: does that apply to classes not pertaining to my major? I have 39.01 credit hours of F's (I was really sick and stubborn) mostly in art classes that have absolutely zero to do with my major or gen eds.

No, only science classes.


2. I've been told my a med student friend that me keeping my Japanese major would make me stand out in an applicant pool. Would it be worth keeping my Japanese as a major alongside biology and pre-med classes, or could I make it my minor and still stand out possibly?

We don't care about your major or minor, only that you do well.


3. At 61 attempted hours and a 2.844 GPA so far (NOT including all my F's and my state's apparently meaningless academic fresh start), if I were to manage to get, maybe, a 3.5 GPA and an MCAT score of 513+, would you say there are any schools I possibly could NOT get into? I ask because I'm local to Vanderbilt and am absolutely in love with the school as it's very personally involved in my life. Of course I want to work hard and do my best and accept the best opportunity I can get, but I don't want to delude myself.
Oh, there are tons of schools that have tons of candidates who don't have the red flags that you have, so they can afford to ignore you. It's a seller's market, after all.

What you need to do is target schools that reward reinvention. Once you get your reinvention done, and have your MCAT score, then we can draw up a list.




4. Is it harder to get into an MSTP MD/PhD program than just MD? Because I really want to do the MSTP MD/PhD.
You have to be a superstar, with evidence of production research, to get into MD/PhD. Not going to happen. Sorry.

 

[Dullhead]

...No, it doesn't hold me back but I'd still be interested in hearing about your experiences regardless! ...

Over several years of taking classes (at community college) together with kids who were 10-20 years younger than me, never did I experience any awkwardness. Nor even from instructors - many were much younger than me - and teaching me subjects that I'd already taken years ago. Many were curious about what I was trying to do, but once I explained, they all expressed support of my effort.

Try not to be afraid to ask for help. I never hesitated to walk over to a 17-yr old in lab and ask him/her how to set up that cumbersome OChem lab apparatus, for example - they never hesitated to come over and fix my set up. I don't know, but maybe it even made them feel good to drop knowledge on someone 10+ years older than them. The inverse also happened - while waiting for reactions to complete, I would walk around the lab and if I saw someone with an incorrect setup, I would chat with them and let them know - they always appreciated it. One girl in a Bio class said she thought of me like her dad or something. But she did not say it in an insulting manner, more a thankful manner, in the sense that I was looking out for her and our other lab partner. One asked me to do a study session for Gen Chem II. Many more experiences such as discussing exams after they were handed back, homework, etc. I only ever felt lost when they started talking about the latest music and video games, but hey...

I started with the assumption that people are "good" and evaluated from there. It's worked out just fine.

 

[sunshinefl]

Btw SDN culture is anonymity including profile picture. So consider changing yours if that is you.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Hopefully these "mental health" issues are not related to bipolar because the way this entire post read is like someone on a hypomanic episode. MSTP is not going to happen. You not only have a low GPA, but you have no research background (how do you even know you want a PhD?) and you're too old to be taken seriously. It's also not realistic to take 15 units of science in the summer (including organic chemistry) and double major for no good reason.

My honest advice is to do yourself a favor and get some help. You have 2 small kids, mental health problems and you're using your in-laws for free rent. This story doesn't add up to someone that has a reasonable plan.

 

[Momzy]

Your GPA, including Fs, is around 1.73. In order to bring that up to a 3.0 would take an additional ~125 credits of As. To get to a 3.5 it would take ~350 credits of straight As. Vanderbilt's latest class had a GPA range of 3.1-4.0, with an MCAT range of 70-100th percentile (70th is around 506 I believe). I currently do not have MSAR access, so I can not tell you what their 10th percentile stats are. I would say if you get to a 3.0 with straight As (125 credits worth) that would be enough to let any school know that you are a different person now and dedicated. However, that is 4 more years of undergrad, which will take a long time. You might be better off looking at SMPs and DO schools that typically reward reinvention more.

Combined MD/PhD programs are far more competitive that just MD programs.

Well, looking at how my major/minors are now set up, I have 100 credits to go until graduation now. If I were to do a master's program afterwards, that's an extra 30 which, if I work like crazy, I can get A's in. You think even if my cGPA is kinda low at that point but I have a stellar sGPA, it might work? Somebody mentioned that I'm crazy for having no research done but I'm literally just now starting down this path so of course I have no research yet. I'm looking into a research thing for next summer studying cancer biology which I find super exciting. I know I'll need more than just that, but I am working on it. Thank you for putting it in numbers instead of just shooting me down.

Over several years of taking classes (at community college) together with kids who were 10-20 years younger than me, never did I experience any awkwardness. Nor even from instructors - many were much younger than me - and teaching me subjects that I'd already taken years ago. Many were curious about what I was trying to do, but once I explained, they all expressed support of my effort.

Try not to be afraid to ask for help. I never hesitated to walk over to a 17-yr old in lab and ask him/her how to set up that cumbersome OChem lab apparatus, for example - they never hesitated to come over and fix my set up. I don't know, but maybe it even made them feel good to drop knowledge on someone 10+ years older than them. The inverse also happened - while waiting for reactions to complete, I would walk around the lab and if I saw someone with an incorrect setup, I would chat with them and let them know - they always appreciated it. One girl in a Bio class said she thought of me like her dad or something. But she did not say it in an insulting manner, more a thankful manner, in the sense that I was looking out for her and our other lab partner. One asked me to do a study session for Gen Chem II. Many more experiences such as discussing exams after they were handed back, homework, etc. I only ever felt lost when they started talking about the latest music and video games, but hey...

I started with the assumption that people are "good" and evaluated from there. It's worked out just fine.

This is actually really awesome to read! I'm glad you have had these kinds of experiences! I kind of understand the "lost" feeling when it comes to music and games though probably to a lesser extent as I'm only 8-ish years older than my classmates generally so I'm not too out of the loop I guess.

Hopefully these "mental health" issues are not related to bipolar because the way this entire post read is like someone on a hypomanic episode. MSTP is not going to happen. You not only have a low GPA, but you have no research background (how do you even know you want a PhD?) and you're too old to be taken seriously. It's also not realistic to take 15 units of science in the summer (including organic chemistry) and double major for no good reason.

My honest advice is to do yourself a favor and get some help. You have 2 small kids, mental health problems and you're using your in-laws for free rent. This story doesn't add up to someone that has a reasonable plan.

Wow, you're supposed to be a doctor? I really hope you don't talk to patients this way. No, I'm not bipolar, just motivated and determined. As for how I know I want to do a PhD/research, how did you know you wanted to go to medical school? I'm sure you didn't just wake up in med school one day, right? I looked into becoming an MD first but after talking to another friend that is currently IN medical school and has done research, she pointed out the PhD option to me and I looked into what a PhD does and then found out about the MSTP path and felt like that sounds exactly like what I want to do. Yes, I want to treat patients but I really want to do more research and, from what I've read and heard from others, MD/PhD is 80% research and 20% clinical which sounds interesting to me. Of course I might change my mind later and want to commit 100% to one or the other but I'm basically just now starting out all over again as I have 100 credits to pass before graduating undergrad now. Which brings up the research background topic; I just switched to biology, of course I don't have any research background right this very moment. But that doesn't mean I can't get any research experiences. Besides all of that, I am regularly seen to keep up with my mental health and things are fine. Yes, I have two small kids but that is no reason that I can't do this and my in-laws are Cambodian and very family-oriented. They asked us to move in with them as they want their grandkids nearby and they are moving into a house with just the two of them as all of their kids are adults now and have moved out. We of course have offered to help pay for rent, utilities, whatever else but at the moment they have told us to just save our money as the goal is not to live with them forever. I'm sorry if that bothers you? It might sound unreasonable to you but I'm determined. I will figure something out. Like I said, I'm just now starting out on this path. If I could go back and undo all the damage that has been done, I would but I can't at the moment so for now, I'm going to look forward and figure a way over or around the obstacles that are in my way, whether they're obstacles I inadvertently put there myself or not. I'm not going to give up regardless of whether or not you might. And yes, I started this thread wondering if I was crazy or not for making these plans but the more feedback I get and the more I look into things outside of SDN, the more determined I am, even if it's going to be hard. So thanks.

 

[wholeheartedly]

What made you decide medical school would be a good fit for you?

The reason I ask is that if you haven't spent time shadowing or volunteering or working in a clinical setting (which you don't mention or I missed), it might be a bit pre-mature to upend your whole academic plan to switch from the language stuff to medicine. This is especially true since you have no experience with the hardcore basic science classes. These are very different from language classes.

It might be more prudent to stay with your language major and declare a science minor while test driving a few science class. During that time do some volunteering in a hospital and some shadowing. Find out for sure that this is a good fit first and then adjust accordingly.

So so many people jump into the medicine thing only to find it isn't what they thought it would be and aren't happy with that decision.

As for the MSTP, I agree that isn't really in the cards for you with your GPA. MSTP students are the best of the best. Having done no research yet, it's pretty premature to jump on that. Research is one of those things that always sounds cool and kinda sexy, but the reality for a lot of people tends to fall flat. I say that as someone who loves it and has had plenty of experience with it.

If you do try research and find it's a good fit, don't worry there are plenty of options and ways for you to incorporate that into your medical training and practice at various points down the road. You can come back here and we can discuss those options when you get to that point.

It's also possible you might decide to do a PhD and discard clinical medicine altogether. That's also doable.

As others have mentioned, this is all a marathon not a sprint. The best thing you can do is take it slow and steady and take the steps to make sure you're making fully informed decisions before jumping headfirst into the deep end. And make sure you knock it out of the park from here on out.

 

[Momzy]

What made you decide medical school would be a good fit for you?

I've spent a lot of time for roughly the last decade in and out of and around hospitals and medical stuff and have loved science and medicine for forever. However, I grew up in a really negative environment (single parent, domestic violence, hard drugs and alcohol, literally fleeing from state to state) and never was really given the option to consider being a doctor when I got older but I still loved learning about it and asking questions regardless. A few years ago while my husband was in the military, I did an online certification in medical office administration (I got a 4.0 in all my coursework for that but for some reason it doesn't show up in my GPA/transcript?) and I loved it but I didn't want to work in an office setting, I wanted to study science and medicine more in depth and do what I think of as research. I chose language instead because that was a valid option to me since I could afford that more easily than possibly med school since I pay for schooling myself and take out loans myself. I just figured I could love medicine from a distance. But a few weeks ago I met with a neuropsychologist and was talking to him for quite a while and we were nerding out to each other about medical stuff and my love of it and how his wife is a leader in research on Prader-Willi syndrome out here and how I thought that was so freaking cool and he looked at me and was like, "Why are you not studying this stuff? You can always dabble in being a translator but you can't really dabble in being a doctor." And it was like a light bulb went off in my head. I had the confidence to do well in school after restarting last year and doing well so I decided I wanted to do it because he's right. I can translate as a hobby. It's fun for me. But now that I have opened this door for myself, I'm more excited than I was about becoming a translator. Before, when I thought about being a translator, I always had this thought about, "Well what about after that?" It felt incomplete. But the thought of becoming a doctor and seeing patients and studying genes and cancer, especially knowing that it's raging pretty hard in my family right now (one family member has colorectal cancer, another just found out they have stage III skin cancer, another just found out they have breast cancer; none of them are over 45) doesn't leave me with a "what next" feeling. Honestly it doesn't feel like it leaves me with a "translate on the side" feeling either, but I want to keep those classes as it's a fun hobby. Maybe that sounds rambly or overly idealistic but I tried to explain myself the best I could.

If you do try research and find it's a good fit, don't worry there are plenty of options and ways for you to incorporate that into your medical training and practice at various points down the road. You can come back here and we can discuss those options when you get to that point.

It's also possible you might decide to do a PhD and discard clinical medicine altogether. That's also doable.

I understand what you're saying with the research-might-not-be-my-thing point and I'm okay with that! I feel like that's true of anything. I'm planning to apply for a research internship next summer studying cancer biology and I'll see from there how it goes! I'd be really interested in learning about other ways to incorporate research and being a doctor together without necessarily having to do an MD/PhD or MSTP because like I said, I'm just getting started. I understand that there are things I still don't know yet and I'm open to exploring my options, I just don't want to feel like I settled. If I scrap medicine and am happy with just doing a PhD, that would be alright. At the moment, I am most interested in an MSTP, but nothing is absolutely set in stone except that I need to R.O.C.K. my grades and the MCAT.

Thank you for your input! It was very kind and helpful.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Wow, you're supposed to be a doctor? I really hope you don't talk to patients this way. No, I'm not bipolar, just motivated and determined. As for how I know I want to do a PhD/research, how did you know you wanted to go to medical school? I'm sure you didn't just wake up in med school one day, right? I looked into becoming an MD first but after talking to another friend that is currently IN medical school and has done research, she pointed out the PhD option to me and I looked into what a PhD does and then found out about the MSTP path and felt like that sounds exactly like what I want to do. Yes, I want to treat patients but I really want to do more research and, from what I've read and heard from others, MD/PhD is 80% research and 20% clinical which sounds interesting to me. Of course I might change my mind later and want to commit 100% to one or the other but I'm basically just now starting out all over again as I have 100 credits to pass before graduating undergrad now. Which brings up the research background topic; I just switched to biology, of course I don't have any research background right this very moment. But that doesn't mean I can't get any research experiences. Besides all of that, I am regularly seen to keep up with my mental health and things are fine. Yes, I have two small kids but that is no reason that I can't do this and my in-laws are Cambodian and very family-oriented. They asked us to move in with them as they want their grandkids nearby and they are moving into a house with just the two of them as all of their kids are adults now and have moved out. We of course have offered to help pay for rent, utilities, whatever else but at the moment they have told us to just save our money as the goal is not to live with them forever. I'm sorry if that bothers you? It might sound unreasonable to you but I'm determined. I will figure something out. Like I said, I'm just now starting out on this path. If I could go back and undo all the damage that has been done, I would but I can't at the moment so for now, I'm going to look forward and figure a way over or around the obstacles that are in my way, whether they're obstacles I inadvertently put there myself or not. I'm not going to give up regardless of whether or not you might. And yes, I started this thread wondering if I was crazy or not for making these plans but the more feedback I get and the more I look into things outside of SDN, the more determined I am, even if it's going to be hard. So thanks.

I'm not "supposed to be a doctor." I am a doctor. If you don't like being spoken to this way, you're gonna have a hard time with your attendings. Nobody coddles you in this process. When I see a patient with a BMI of 40 and a BP of 166/111 telling me he doesn't need medication and will start running 2 hours a day starting tomorrow when he can't reach to tie his shoelaces, I call them out. Perhaps in your head you have planned this all out and think you know better than the rest of us that have been through this process, but the truth is you don't. You have continued failures in non-science, no research experience to "really want an MD/PhD" and a plan that's nonsensical ("double major because I like it and will do 15 units of science in a summer"). I wish you no ill will and hope for your kids sake that you somehow manage to pull this off, but unless I see a realistic plan, I'm not putting my bets on a sinking ship crossing the atlantic.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I think one thing you keep missing is that people continue to tell you that MSTP isn’t an option and you keep missing it. So if you couldn’t do MSTP, what would you do? Because if you think you like research, PhD is the way to go. Back when I was applying to medical school, every MSTP applicant I knew of was rocking a 3.8 gpa and a 36-38 MCAT. I don’t know what it means on the new score MCAT, but 38 was like the 98th percentile. You are competing against valedictorians from Ivy League schools.

I think you need to grasp that and figure out what you want given the possibilities in front of you. I’m sorry, but MSTP isn’t in front of you.

 

[PipetteDreams]

@Momzy - Let's take this step-by-step.

Currently, you need to prove three things:
1. You can handle the academic rigors of a graduate program.
2. You need a PhD to get what you want out of life.
3. You need an MD to get what you want out of life.

So, to each of these ends -

1. The only guaranteed thing you have right now is time.
What is your new proposed class schedule? When are you taking the MCAT? Be realistic. Use your time wisely, and use it to your advantage.

2. Prove to yourself that you need a PhD.
Have you reached out to your potential research advisor? With your current history, you may need to generate a list of researchers to reach out to. Then, send a concise, convincing letter and CV; many students try to shadow or do research in each lab every year.

You mention you like "genes and cancer": where in the research train do you see yourself? Bench side? Computational? Translational? Clinical?

Speaking of research: topics are indeed "freaking fascinating," but the day-to-day of research is tedious and boring. I know; I have a PhD. You need to be okay with delayed gratification. You need to be okay with weeks or months-long experiments that yield unusable or non-interesting data. Much like everything else with applying to medical school, you need to be patient and able to focus on the minutia ("genes and cancer" notoriously so).

I love my research topic, and so do the undergraduates that join my lab. However, many quickly realize research is 0% glamorous and move on. Others have gone on to find they thrive in a lab and pursue a PhD. Prove to yourself that you need a PhD with the experiences you gain.

3. At the same time, prove to yourself that you need an MD.

a. Do you have a list of places to volunteer that will enable you to interact with patients? Can you create a schedule around classes, research, and spending time with your family?

b. Who are you going to shadow? Have you made a list of people to contact to potentially shadow?

Yes, medicine is also fascinating. But prove to yourself that you have an innate need to help sick people, and to work directly with patients. Do you need to have that patient interaction? Don't answer right now. Take the time to show yourself, through shadowing and volunteering, that your life will be incomplete otherwise.

Best of luck.

 

[BobbyKoch]

This thread has some great advice. And some excellent use of italics, the original emoji.

 

[I'm a Fake Doctor]

I've spent a lot of time for roughly the last decade in and out of and around hospitals and medical stuff and have loved science and medicine for forever. However, I grew up in a really negative environment (single parent, domestic violence, hard drugs and alcohol, literally fleeing from state to state) and never was really given the option to consider being a doctor when I got older but I still loved learning about it and asking questions regardless. A few years ago while my husband was in the military, I did an online certification in medical office administration (I got a 4.0 in all my coursework for that but for some reason it doesn't show up in my GPA/transcript?) and I loved it but I didn't want to work in an office setting, I wanted to study science and medicine more in depth and do what I think of as research. I chose language instead because that was a valid option to me since I could afford that more easily than possibly med school since I pay for schooling myself and take out loans myself. I just figured I could love medicine from a distance. But a few weeks ago I met with a neuropsychologist and was talking to him for quite a while and we were nerding out to each other about medical stuff and my love of it and how his wife is a leader in research on Prader-Willi syndrome out here and how I thought that was so freaking cool and he looked at me and was like, "Why are you not studying this stuff? You can always dabble in being a translator but you can't really dabble in being a doctor." And it was like a light bulb went off in my head. I had the confidence to do well in school after restarting last year and doing well so I decided I wanted to do it because he's right. I can translate as a hobby. It's fun for me. But now that I have opened this door for myself, I'm more excited than I was about becoming a translator. Before, when I thought about being a translator, I always had this thought about, "Well what about after that?" It felt incomplete. But the thought of becoming a doctor and seeing patients and studying genes and cancer, especially knowing that it's raging pretty hard in my family right now (one family member has colorectal cancer, another just found out they have stage III skin cancer, another just found out they have breast cancer; none of them are over 45) doesn't leave me with a "what next" feeling. Honestly it doesn't feel like it leaves me with a "translate on the side" feeling either, but I want to keep those classes as it's a fun hobby. Maybe that sounds rambly or overly idealistic but I tried to explain myself the best I could.



I understand what you're saying with the research-might-not-be-my-thing point and I'm okay with that! I feel like that's true of anything. I'm planning to apply for a research internship next summer studying cancer biology and I'll see from there how it goes! I'd be really interested in learning about other ways to incorporate research and being a doctor together without necessarily having to do an MD/PhD or MSTP because like I said, I'm just getting started. I understand that there are things I still don't know yet and I'm open to exploring my options, I just don't want to feel like I settled. If I scrap medicine and am happy with just doing a PhD, that would be alright. At the moment, I am most interested in an MSTP, but nothing is absolutely set in stone except that I need to R.O.C.K. my grades and the MCAT.

Thank you for your input! It was very kind and helpful.

This thread is eerie similar to this guy's thread: Time to come clean: I just want to make $$$..!!

Anyway - with your language background skills, why wouldn't you just go work for the FBI as a linguist specialist or foreign language analyst? Good money, with GREAT benefits. I don't know how you would do during their background check, but they (and this is a big) may overlook certain things in your past if your skills are as good as you say they are.

Other than that, if you want this MD/PHD so bad, go take the MCAT and score a 528! I'm sure some school, somewhere would take a chance on you if you can pull that off. Good Luck and sayonara!

 

[holdthemayo]

At 61 attempted hours and a 2.844 GPA so far (NOT including all my F's and my state's apparently meaningless academic fresh start), if I were to manage to get, maybe, a 3.5 GPA and an MCAT score of 513+, would you say there are any schools I possibly could NOT get into? I ask because I'm local to Vanderbilt and am absolutely in love with the school as it's very personally involved in my life. Of course, I want to work hard and do my best and accept the best opportunity I can get, but I don't want to delude myself.

Honest answer:
Every school is a school you will probably NOT get into. You will not get into most schools that you apply to. Around 40% of applicants successfully get accepted to medical school anywhere. Of those, just under 50% receive an acceptance to only one school (average ~14 applications/matriculant). Exceedingly few of them are trying to overcome such a low GPA. If you go this route, a realistic goal to set for yourself is to get accepted somewhere in the country. You will need to apply broadly to have any chance. Your chances will be much better for DO schools, but you will still need years of GPA repair to have a shot.

Sources: https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/474258/data/msq2016report.pdf

This isn't to say it can't be done, but you need to go in with your eyes open to what you can expect out of this journey or you will end up sorely disappointed at the end of it.

Some things to think about:

You really need to figure out how many classes you need just to crack 3.0 with your F's. As someone else pointed out, a 3.5 is probably out of reach.
A 513+ is a good goal. It is also the top 11% of test takers, a group that includes many of the top students in the country. So not at all an easy thing to achieve.
You have about a 35% chance of getting accepted at any MD school with a GPA of 3.0-3.19 and a 513 MCAT. (Higher if you are URM)
You would have a very good shot at a DO school if you can crack 3.0 and 505 on the MCAT.


In the short term:
Prove you can get A's in science classes. Everything else is wishful thinking without this.
&
Really figure out what you actually want. You are excited about the idea of research and clinical practice, but with limited experience in both.
Shadow a doctor, get some lab experience, and shadow a translator. Seeing the day-to-day of all three should give you a much clearer idea of whether you would be happy doing it.


In addition to Goro's reinvention thread, read the following:

Low GPA/MCAT success stories (my favorite thread for encouragement when I was in your shoes): LOW GPA/MCAT Success Stories (Posts by Nontrads Already Accepted to Med School)

Dr.Midlife's post on What you should do if you want to go to med school but your GPA is way below 3.0:: The Low Gpa--What Do I Do Thread