Am I missing something?

[Mdr1985]

Ok all, I'm concerned I may be looking at something wrong and would like some feedback. . . either slap me in the face with reality, or reassure me I'm looking at it correctly. . .

I understand there are people that come out of medical school with families and/or other significant additional financial responsibilities. . . this does not refer to them. . .

For those that are able to come out of medical school and residency and for a couple years live like you made 50K a year. . . couldn't you repay your loans in about 2 years? Why is everyone talking about paying loans over 10 years? That just sounds like an enormous waste of money in interest. . . I know you're all probably smarter than to be throwing that money away, so I'm wondering what it is I'm missing. Here's how I'm planning things (roughly). . .

200,000 from medical school, and an additional 50,000 from interest if I put off paying those loans until I'm done with residency (I don't know enough about the IBR and other programs to factor that possibility into my equation yet). So that's 250,000 total. I'm planning as of now to go into emergency medicine, and from what I'm researching I'd say 225,000/year is a fair estimate. . . In two years I'd make 450,000. . . minus 100,000 in taxes that's 350,000. . . minus another 100,000 (living a 50,000/yr lifestyle) that's 250,000. . . the amount of my loan was 250,000. . .

So. . . looking at that option, and of course I realize there may be +/- here and there, I find myself wondering why SO many people are talking about 10yr+ repayment. . . I can't imagine all of these people have kids. . . and even if they did, I know plenty of people that live (albeit conservatively) with 1 or 2 kids off of 50K a year. Why isn't it more standard to pay of your loans in 2-3 years?

What am I missing?

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[ucbsmd]

After living off of a very small amount of money for 7-8(All of your 20's) to become an EM physician, people are ready to increase their standard of living. Yes, you could continue to drive your 15 year old civic and renting a small apartment, BUT many would rather start pooling money for a down payment on a larger home, buying a new car, taking that trip they've been wanting to go on etc. instead.

 

[glasshalfMD]

Here's my plan:

-get out of school with ~$200,000 in debt
-during residency, basically just pay off interest as it's accruing (roughly $14,000 per year)
-end residency with the same ~$200,000 in debt
-pediatrics (so take home pay ~$100,000); 50% of this = $50,000 [pay this amt back per year] - remember, interest is still accruing.
-after attending yr 1, ~$163,000 remaining
-after attending yr 2, ~$123,000 remaining
-after attending yr 3, ~$81,000 remaining
-after attending yr 4, ~$37,000 remaining
-after attending yr 5, ALL DONE. [may not even take this long, I'm undershooting pay and overshooting the amt I need to live]

So, 8 years post-medical school, I should be finished paying off loans (5 years post-residency). I don't think this is too shabby. AND it's leaving me $50,000/year for living expenses. I'm sure a spouse will be worked in there somewhere - so if he contributes equally to living expenses, we'll be sitting pretty, IMO.

So, yes, OP. It shouldn't take you 10+ years if you're not living well beyond your means.

 

[eli20]

At this point I'd also like to pay off my debt as soon as possible after residency, however, talk to me in 7-9 years and I might be singing a different tune.

 

[gravitywave]

Here's my plan:

-get out of school with ~$200,000 in debt
-during residency, basically just pay off interest as it's accruing (roughly $14,000 per year)
-end residency with the same ~$200,000 in debt
-pediatrics (so take home pay ~$100,000); 50% of this = $50,000 [pay this amt back per year] - remember, interest is still accruing.
-after attending yr 1, ~$163,000 remaining
-after attending yr 2, ~$123,000 remaining
-after attending yr 3, ~$81,000 remaining
-after attending yr 4, ~$37,000 remaining
-after attending yr 5, ALL DONE. [may not even take this long, I'm undershooting pay and overshooting the amt I need to live]

So, 8 years post-medical school, I should be finished paying off loans (5 years post-residency). I don't think this is too shabby. AND it's leaving me $50,000/year for living expenses. I'm sure a spouse will be worked in there somewhere - so if he contributes equally to living expenses, we'll be sitting pretty, IMO.

So, yes, OP. It shouldn't take you 10+ years if you're not living well beyond your means.

this isn't unreasonable, plenty of people do it this way. it takes a lot of discipline however (and you're talking about people who have a lot of discipline to begin with). i think what often tends to happen instead is that "life" gets in the way: people decide to buy houses, have kids, contribute to savings/max out their matching 403(b), take real vacations now that they are making real money.... real life adds up real fast

 

[NewEngland21]

Here's my plan:

-get out of school with ~$200,000 in debt
-during residency, basically just pay off interest as it's accruing (roughly $14,000 per year)
-end residency with the same ~$200,000 in debt
-pediatrics (so take home pay ~$100,000); 50% of this = $50,000 [pay this amt back per year] - remember, interest is still accruing.
-after attending yr 1, ~$163,000 remaining
-after attending yr 2, ~$123,000 remaining
-after attending yr 3, ~$81,000 remaining
-after attending yr 4, ~$37,000 remaining
-after attending yr 5, ALL DONE. [may not even take this long, I'm undershooting pay and overshooting the amt I need to live]

So, 8 years post-medical school, I should be finished paying off loans (5 years post-residency). I don't think this is too shabby. AND it's leaving me $50,000/year for living expenses. I'm sure a spouse will be worked in there somewhere - so if he contributes equally to living expenses, we'll be sitting pretty, IMO.

So, yes, OP. It shouldn't take you 10+ years if you're not living well beyond your means.

This is pretty much what my plan looks like, but my debt will be more like 300k-350k. (Expensive Undergrad) So, It most likely will take me closer to 10 yrs in repayment.

 

[ozzi22]

i don't plan on being in debt

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I'm a bit too tired to try to think of a good answer, but for starters, you should double check your tax estimates. At 2011 tax rates, you're looking at about $64k in total federal taxes, and unless you live in one of the (currently) nine states without state income tax, expect somewhere between $8-16k in additional income tax.

 

[glasshalfMD]

this isn't unreasonable, plenty of people do it this way. it takes a lot of discipline however (and you're talking about people who have a lot of discipline to begin with). i think what often tends to happen instead is that "life" gets in the way: people decide to buy houses, have kids, contribute to savings/max out their matching 403(b), take real vacations now that they are making real money.... real life adds up real fast

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I paid off my undergrad loans ($23,000) in 17 months. It sucked - a lot. But, since February (turned in my last payment on Valentines day!), I've been able to be more flexible with my income, do things I want to do, AND start setting aside some 'fun money' for my 4 years of med school. If I'm able to pay off loans while significant other/spouse contributes more to rent/mortgage/living for a few years, I can make up for it in the future. I look at $50,000 per year and think 'holy crap, that's a lot of money.' I grew up w/ a single mom making somewhere in the $40,000s per year, and we did just fine. Adding a spouses income of another $50-70,000 per year really seals the deal. I sure do hope I'm able to keep up with this level of discipline, given my current mindset on the matter. I don't have too many doubts. But as you said, life adds up fast and things can cerrrrtainly change over the course of the next 7-10 years. For now, no unexpected bundles of joy for me, hahah

 

[dpmd]

Actually, if your job pays you 225K and you have no other income and you don't itemize deductions you would pay 56281 according to the 1040 publication. If you lived in California you would pay 18748. Both of these are from 2010 tax forms and assume you didn't have any itemized deductions or qualify for any credits. That brings you down to 149971. But you may need to pay for malpractice insurance (widely variable, but lets say 10K a year). And you will need disability insurance (also variable but lets say 2K). You may have to pay for your medical insurance (lets say it is 2K). so now you are at 135K. Plus your hospital may make you pay dues to be on staff. You may want life insurance (although if it is just you maybe not). You will need to pay for board certification exams (another couple of thousand) and possibly board prep courses). You may need to get a new license in you move to a new state (or at least will have to renew yours), another thousand.

So yes, even with all of that you end up with about 80K extra to pay towards loans if you live off of 50K for all your other expenses (or you could scrimp and live on less). But that is much different than what you were estimating, and it wouldn't be paid off in two years (even with your estimates it wouldn't be because interest continues to accrue so 250K 2 yrs later is more than 250K). You would be looking at more like four years, but most people are going to have some creep on how much they spend on living so that is why most people expect to take longer than that. But certainly if you can be disciplined enough to do so you would benefit by paying less interest (would also benefit by paying as much as you can during residency whether it is through IBR or just paying something despite being in forbearance).

By the way though, these numbers didn't include retirement planning. I assume you want to retire at some point. So that would make less money available for loan paying or living.

 

[DrBender79]

Also, there's a lot of docs that go into FM and PEDS, and while their debt is about the same as their peers, their starting salary is going to be a lot less than the $225k you are calculating with.
But your underlying point is valid. There's probably a lot of young attendings living beyond their new-found means. After toiling and scrimping for 7+ post-undergrad years, the temptation to take out a huge mortgage and lease a shiny BMW is probably pretty strong.

 

[smq123]

Merged the two threads.

 

[CaliGirl14]

I'm going to just live like a hobo during my twenties and go on a major shopping spree after I paid my debt

 

[glasshalfMD]

I'm going to just live like a hobo during my twenties and go on a major shopping spree after I paid my debt

Yes, love this!

 

[alwaysaangel]

I'm going to pay on IBR for 10 years and at the end the government will pay off whatever is remaining. Comes to 80-120k for me depending on if I do a fellowship.

Of course, you can pay it off quickly. But when you're 27 years old and starting residency and then 30+ and finally an attending - there are lots of things you're going to want to buy that you're tired of waiting for. Houses, cars, have kids, vacation, etc. Sure debt hangs over your head and you have to pay off the interest. But $1000 worth of fun now is well worth the $3000 I'll pay back 5 years from now when my income has quadrupled (and mathematically makes sense too). Its all relative. What $1 is to you now is not going to be the same when you're making more money. So when you're making very little it sometimes makes sense to take out the extra loans, and pay off the minimum - and deal with it later when money is no longer your limiting factor in life.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I'm going to just live like a hobo during my twenties and go on a major shopping spree after I paid my debt

Haha huge fan love it too

Houses, cars, have kids, vacation, etc. Sure debt hangs over your head and you have to pay off the interest. But $1000 worth of fun now is well worth the $3000 I'll pay back 5 years from now when my income has quadrupled (and mathematically makes sense too).

See this actually just kills me. I'm HUGELY debt averse. Plus I'm not sure how your income is gonna quadruple once you're an attending...are you planning on going from making 150K to 600K....

Anyway I just see that as free money I'm handing a bank. I feel no need to pay compound interest on my loan that I'm already going to be paying interest on in the first place. This is also the reason why I never charge anything to a credit card that I can't pay off in a month. Why hand a bank money when you don't have to? Plus, I always have the feeling that unless I NEED to have that debt I don't want it. Student loans especially are extremely hard to shake. What if you became disabled for some reason and couldn't work? You have to jump through all kinds of loopholes to try to delay payment and you'd basically have to declare bankruptcy to have any chance of totally shaking the loans.

See I just don't see it as that hard to drive around a used car and rent for a few more years to obtain financial security. Haha but I take pride in keeping my cars going for as long as I can....I'm replacing the clutch and rack on mine this summer hopefully I can get a few more years out of it!

 

[45408]

I look at $50,000 per year and think 'holy crap, that's a lot of money.'

It's not.

 

[45408]

See this actually just kills me. I'm HUGELY debt averse. Plus I'm not sure how your income is gonna quadruple once you're an attending...are you planning on going from making 150K to 600K....

Because no resident anywhere is getting a $150K salary....

It's fairly reasonable to assume she'll go from $40-45K to $160K.

What if you became disabled for some reason and couldn't work? You have to jump through all kinds of loopholes to try to delay payment and you'd basically have to declare bankruptcy to have any chance of totally shaking the loans.

Student loans are discharged if you become permanently disabled.

See I just don't see it as that hard to drive around a used car and rent for a few more years to obtain financial security. Haha but I take pride in keeping my cars going for as long as I can....I'm replacing the clutch and rack on mine this summer hopefully I can get a few more years out of it!

That feeling starts to fade as you try to put your children into your rattling rust-bucket and you're still driving a Ford Turd when your peers are starting to buy nicer cars. That said, I just replaced the spark plugs on my '99 Acura so it'll keep on ticking, but I have a very short commute every day.

 

[DrLeon]

Haha huge fan love it too



See this actually just kills me. I'm HUGELY debt averse. Plus I'm not sure how your income is gonna quadruple once you're an attending...are you planning on going from making 150K to 600K....

It's more like $50,000 to $200,000. Residents make about $7-$20/hr. There are good reasons to pay it off quickly and there are good reasons to pay it off slowly. Personally I will pay it off in the max because of this scenario: If I consolidate my loans down to a nice percentage and pay off the scheduled amount I can use whatever extra I may have paid to go to a high yield savings or investment account. At the end of the 10 years, with my money gaining interest upon itself and compounding I may come out ahead of those who rushed to pay it off early and not build any wealth in the process. That is the common reason why people choose to pay it off on time instead of early. Google it for a more in depth answer and better examples.

 

[MacVA]

Here's my plan:

-get out of school with ~$200,000 in debt
-during residency, basically just pay off interest as it's accruing (roughly $14,000 per year)
-end residency with the same ~$200,000 in debt
-pediatrics (so take home pay ~$100,000); 50% of this = $50,000 [pay this amt back per year] - remember, interest is still accruing.
-after attending yr 1, ~$163,000 remaining
-after attending yr 2, ~$123,000 remaining
-after attending yr 3, ~$81,000 remaining
-after attending yr 4, ~$37,000 remaining
-after attending yr 5, ALL DONE. [may not even take this long, I'm undershooting pay and overshooting the amt I need to live]

So, 8 years post-medical school, I should be finished paying off loans (5 years post-residency). I don't think this is too shabby. AND it's leaving me $50,000/year for living expenses. I'm sure a spouse will be worked in there somewhere - so if he contributes equally to living expenses, we'll be sitting pretty, IMO.

So, yes, OP. It shouldn't take you 10+ years if you're not living well beyond your means.

GlasshalfMD,

There is no way you can this. First off, if you can TAKE HOME $100,000 a year as a pediatrician - let me know. In order to take home $100,000 - you need to be making close to $180,000.

Good luck paying off $14,000 in student loans a year making $46,000 a year.

(SO is a peds, so i got the background info).

Also remember your loans compound each and every year. Its a bullet...

 

[dpmd]

Federal student loans accrue interest, but only capitalize interest (adding it to your principal balance) at certain times (like when coming out of grace period or forbearance). One you are in repayment the interest is not compound.

DrLeon-consolidating isn't going to lower your interest rate. The time when incentives were offered that lowered interest (or in some cases principal) has passed. Consolidating just takes the weighted average of all your loans and rounds up to the closest 1/6 of a percent (so it is actually a little higher in some situations than if you just kept them separate). It is nice because you only deal with one servicer, but don't think you are going to save on interest that way. For those of us who were lucky enough to consolidate at a super low rate paying over the maximum time is great, but if you have loans at 6.8% or more, you are not going to find any "high yield" savings account that will approach that. You might be able to beat it long term with investments, but that isn't certain. You need to consider carefully before you accept paying that interest when you have the option to pay it off sooner.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Because no resident anywhere is getting a $150K salary....

It's fairly reasonable to assume she'll go from $40-45K to $160K.

It's more like $50,000 to $200,000. Residents make about $7-$20/hr

Got it guys the way she phrased it made it seem like it was the attending income she was talking about, not the resident income. Especially because we're talking about paying off your loans ASAP here when you're an attending...not many people are gonna be able to pay off much when you're a resident. Obviously paying a ton of it off while you're a resident makes wayyy less sense so I was assuming she wasn't talking about that.

However, I would encourage everyone to pay off at least some interest while you're a resident so you can get the $2500 tax deduction. Not much but better than nothing...plus you're ineligible for it once you reach attending income.

If I consolidate my loans down to a nice percentage and pay off the scheduled amount I can use whatever extra I may have paid to go to a high yield savings or investment account

This doesn't make much sense at all. Where are you gonna get a high yield savings account that pays more than 1-1.5% interest? The highest yield accounts right now are like 1.15%...I have a decent amount of money in an Ally account that's 1% and that's on the high end for savings accounts. CDs are about the same way..most you'll get is around 2-3% right now for a long term (3-5 year) CD.

Otherwise, you're investing money that could very well lose value. Plus, unless you can consolidate your loans down to a value that is under around 5% its not realistic to think you can outrun them.

"The interest rate for a Direct Consolidation Loan is the weighted average of the interest rates on the loans being consolidated (as of the date we receive the application), rounded to the nearest higher one-eighth of one percent. This rate is fixed for the life of the loan and cannot exceed 8.25 percent."

Sooo with staffords that are around 6.8% right now I would not count on using investments to try to beat your interest rate.

 

[alwaysaangel]

See this actually just kills me. I'm HUGELY debt averse. Plus I'm not sure how your income is gonna quadruple once you're an attending...are you planning on going from making 150K to 600K....

No but as a resident I will make about 50k. When I become an attending it will easily be 180-250k. Quadrupled... (oops others already cleared this up)

And not too many residents are completely deferring all payments these days (through forebearance) with IBR it makes the most sense to make your IBR payment so you can potentially take advantage of PSLF program in 10 years.

Anyway I just see that as free money I'm handing a bank. I feel no need to pay compound interest on my loan that I'm already going to be paying interest on in the first place. This is also the reason why I never charge anything to a credit card that I can't pay off in a month. Why hand a bank money when you don't have to? Plus, I always have the feeling that unless I NEED to have that debt I don't want it. Student loans especially are extremely hard to shake. What if you became disabled for some reason and couldn't work? You have to jump through all kinds of loopholes to try to delay payment and you'd basically have to declare bankruptcy to have any chance of totally shaking the loans.

See I just don't see it as that hard to drive around a used car and rent for a few more years to obtain financial security. Haha but I take pride in keeping my cars going for as long as I can....I'm replacing the clutch and rack on mine this summer hopefully I can get a few more years out of it!

I grew up the same way as you. My family is very debt adverse. My parents paid off their 30 year mortgage in 20 years. I worked my ass off and lived like a pauper to avoid loans in undergrad. I've never paid a cent of interest to a credit card company.

But once you have 200k in debt it starts being very difficult to "worry" about it. Having spent 8 years in school, I'm ready to actually live somewhat comfortably and not count every single red cent. I would like a reliable car, an apartment with in-house laundry, and if I want something small I will buy it. I'm not going to run out and buy a BMW but I also no longer see the point in "living like a resident" for extra years - especially when if I work for a university the government will pay off whatever is left after 10 years.

To each their own. But I would say myself and like 1/4 of my classmates sang the tune you are 4 years ago. We don't anymore.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

No but as a resident I will make about 50k. When I become an attending it will easily be 180-250k. Quadrupled...

especially when if I work for a university the government will pay off whatever is left after 10 years.

Already explained my misunderstanding there and why making too high payments as a resident wouldn't make sense anyway. Sorry for the confusion.

Plus, you're right with the deal you're doing it makes sense to pay the minimum you can. I'm all for that.

Wanted to add something else on here that I missed before from TheProwler

Student loans are discharged if you become permanently disabled.

Have fun proving you're totally and permanently disabled (the ONLY case where they MAY discharge them and only for federal loans)

http://www.disabilitydischarge.com/Pages/Process.aspx?id=83&libID=104

Keep in mind they reserve the right to determine that you aren't completely disabled even if you have a physician saying you are

 

[alwaysaangel]

Already explained my misunderstanding there and why making too high payments as a resident wouldn't make sense anyway. Sorry for the confusion.

I wasn't really talking about payments in my original post anyway. A lot of people were talking about saving and scrimping. I was talking about how one chooses to spend their money. There really is a relative value and you have to be somewhat happy during med school and residency.

Have fun proving you're totally and permanently disabled (the ONLY case where they MAY discharge them and only for federal loans)

http://www.disabilitydischarge.com/Pages/Process.aspx?id=83&libID=104

Keep in mind they reserve the right to determine that you aren't completely disabled even if you have a physician saying you are

If you can't prove it then you just switch back to IBR. Pay 15% of your income above the 150% poverty line for your family size. After 25 years - the remainder of the loans are discharged.

Student loans are actually set up very fairly. They're not going to bury someone who has an unfortunate accident.

 

[glasshalfMD]

GlasshalfMD,

There is no way you can this. First off, if you can TAKE HOME $100,000 a year as a pediatrician - let me know. In order to take home $100,000 - you need to be making close to $180,000.

Good luck paying off $14,000 in student loans a year making $46,000 a year.

(SO is a peds, so i got the background info).

Also remember your loans compound each and every year. Its a bullet...

I'm basing my guesstimations on a salary of $150,000 per year (over $10,000 less than the peds avg). This would put me in the 28% fed tax bracket, I live in Ohio so that's another ~6% + city tax of another let's say 3%. So, I'm being taxed ~$55,000, making my take home pay ABOUT $100,000. Like I said, I plan on having a spouse at this point, which gives me a great deal more wiggle room with regard to living expenses. If I pay $14,000-18,000 back to loans as a resident, I have remaining ~$20,000 post-tax + a spouse to juggle the remaining. If I pay $50,000 back in the following 5 years, I have remaining ~$50,000 post-tax and STILL the spouse to juggle a lot of living. That's $30,000 more per year (post-residency vs during residency) to upgrade living style, buy that new car, etc.

People are talking about being loan-averse. I'm averse to taking forever to pay back. They can have back what they gave me, but I am going to give them as little interest as possible. I have no doubt that I'll be sick of my 2007 Elantra in 2018 when I'm finishing up my residency - but it can sure last me that long. And, as others have been mentioning, I'll get something new but I won't step right up to that BMW. I have accepted the fact that I might only be able to upgrade from an apartment to a townhouse or condo for a while during/post-residency. This is fine. At this rate, according to my plan (which is valid, IMHO), I'll be finished paying at age 35. If I have to wait to actually have a legit house til then, so be it. I don't have qualms about having my first kid while still in an apt or condo and then waiting to have kid number 2 til 35. No biggie.

 

[getdown]

I'm going to just live like a hobo during my twenties and go on a major shopping spree after I paid my debt

I'm banking on finding a nice shuga-momma to help me with expenses in exchange for sexual favors. Meh, I'm young, I can handle it

 

[ucbsmd]

At this point I would do IBR during residency, followed by paying as much as possible post-residency. The IBR would help reduce the growth of the loan with the subsidy on some of the interest while my income is low. Then I want to get rid of the remaining debt as soon as possible.

The only time I can see IBR with PSLF working out is if I did something like Neruosurgery with skull base fellowship since that's (6-7 years residency)+(1-2 years fellowship).

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I'm banking on finding a nice shuga-momma to help me with expenses in exchange for sexual favors. Meh, I'm young, I can handle it

That's what I'm all about
I'm putting myself on the market as a trophy husband

 

[DrLeon]

Got it guys the way she phrased it made it seem like it was the attending income she was talking about, not the resident income. Especially because we're talking about paying off your loans ASAP here when you're an attending...not many people are gonna be able to pay off much when you're a resident. Obviously paying a ton of it off while you're a resident makes wayyy less sense so I was assuming she wasn't talking about that.

However, I would encourage everyone to pay off at least some interest while you're a resident so you can get the $2500 tax deduction. Not much but better than nothing...plus you're ineligible for it once you reach attending income.



This doesn't make much sense at all. Where are you gonna get a high yield savings account that pays more than 1-1.5% interest? The highest yield accounts right now are like 1.15%...I have a decent amount of money in an Ally account that's 1% and that's on the high end for savings accounts. CDs are about the same way..most you'll get is around 2-3% right now for a long term (3-5 year) CD.

Otherwise, you're investing money that could very well lose value. Plus, unless you can consolidate your loans down to a value that is under around 5% its not realistic to think you can outrun them.

"The interest rate for a Direct Consolidation Loan is the weighted average of the interest rates on the loans being consolidated (as of the date we receive the application), rounded to the nearest higher one-eighth of one percent. This rate is fixed for the life of the loan and cannot exceed 8.25 percent."

Sooo with staffords that are around 6.8% right now I would not count on using investments to try to beat your interest rate.

I was merely talking about investing in a fund that would more than likely yield 11% return on investment. Investing all the excess is something that, after consideration, may not be the best idea. I still do not agree with living like a pauper just so you can pay down the loan in a couple years. As others have said there are going to be things like houses, cars and families to start saving for.

 

[BionicMan]

This thread is depressing. Thank God I live in Texas: $11,000-14,000/year in tuition and cheap(er) living expenses. I won't owe a dime after graduating.

 

[CaliGirl14]

I'm banking on finding a nice shuga-momma to help me with expenses in exchange for sexual favors. Meh, I'm young, I can handle it

And I thought people would look down on me for planning on having a sugar daddy. Pfft, I'm young, I'm cute, I can totally dig it.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I was merely talking about investing in a fund that would more than likely yield 11% return on investment.

Hey where are you gettin this fund that guarantees 11% ROI because the rest of the world and I would love to get in on this...if it doesn't than like we pointed out before you can lose 11% just as easily as you can gain 11%. I always make it a good rule of thumb to not invest anything (especially in stocks) that you can't afford to lose.