Am I one of those patients Drs complain about?

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KatieOConnor

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A few weeks ago I accidently sliced my hand open while cooking. It wouldn't stop bleeding so I freaked and went to the ER. By the time the Dr saw me it was barely bleeding. She put in two stitches, but, still I felt so stupid when it was all over. Do patients like me clog the ERs and waste peoples' time? Next time I'll probably stay home.

Besides, the Dr didn't use novacaine so it really hurt. :scared:
 
No, if you needed stitches then it was a legitimate cut.

All bleeding stops eventually (hopefully before you become hypovolemic). So EM physicians are used to seeing things that wouldn't stop bleeding but have stopped by the time they evaluated you.

Besides, you probably needed a tetanus update since most Americans aren't up to date on their tetanus vaccines. 🙂

The doc didn't use lidocaine? Now that's just barbaric. I don't buy into the "it's a stick to get the lidocaine, so why stick when you only have to stick a couple times to make the stitch?" argument. The 27 g needle is much thinner than a typical suture needle. The lidocaine burns, but it's less pain than the sewing needle.
 
The doctor didn't use a local to put in sutures??!!! I think I would have asked for something. I'd have screamed bloody murder if somebody tried to sew me up without anesthetic.

Judd
 
juddson said:
The doctor didn't use a local to put in sutures??!!! I think I would have asked for something. I'd have screamed bloody murder if somebody tried to sew me up without anesthetic.

Judd
You shouldn't have to ask for something... any suture should be with a local anesthetic unless the patient adamantly refuses, if it's a life-threatening bleed (which the patient will probably be unconscious from), etc.
 
The Dr acted as though novocaine is this "extra" thing that I didn't reeaally need. I'd never been stitched before, so I was like, "OK." And when it hurt, I figured I just have a low pain threshold. It's comforting to hear that this was actually "supposed" to be painful. I didn't want to be a whiny patient so I sat there completely expressionless while she jabbed her little curved needle into my hand and pulled the two sides of the cut together.

Ow!!! Next time I guess I'll be the annoying demanding patient and insist on novocaine, demerol, morphine...
 
All bleeding stops eventually.. It's only scary if you care.

by a wise man
 
KatieOConnor said:
The Dr acted as though novocaine is this "extra" thing that I didn't reeaally need. I'd never been stitched before, so I was like, "OK." And when it hurt, I figured I just have a low pain threshold. It's comforting to hear that this was actually "supposed" to be painful. I didn't want to be a whiny patient so I sat there completely expressionless while she jabbed her little curved needle into my hand and pulled the two sides of the cut together.

Ow!!! Next time I guess I'll be the annoying demanding patient and insist on novocaine, demerol, morphine...

The irony is that I am guessing you have a HIGH tolerance for pain. I cannot imagine drawing a curved needle followed by thread through allready tender flesh without anesthetic. I think I would have passed out.

What would cause a doctor to suture up somebody's hand without anesthetic? Was it the "the shot from the anesthetic will hurt more than the stitches will" routine? Not even some naugahide? Some whisky?

Judd
 
KatieOConnor said:
A few weeks ago I accidently sliced my hand open while cooking. It wouldn't stop bleeding so I freaked and went to the ER. By the time the Dr saw me it was barely bleeding. She put in two stitches, but, still I felt so stupid when it was all over. Do patients like me clog the ERs and waste peoples' time? Next time I'll probably stay home.

Besides, the Dr didn't use novacaine so it really hurt. :scared:

Who'd he think you were...Rambo? 😕
 
Sounds a little fishy, but, as I told a patient today, you COULD get sutures or staples without anesthetic, because there'd be the pinch/pain of the suture, but, it resolves quickly, and the manner is already in place. Contingent on how many, that would be that many little sticks. It's theoretical, but possible.
 
southerndoc said:
You shouldn't have to ask for something... any suture should be with a local anesthetic unless the patient adamantly refuses, if it's a life-threatening bleed (which the patient will probably be unconscious from), etc.
I usually don't use local if stapling a small scalp lac on a kiddo(1-2 staples). They go in so quick, the procedure is done before they realize what hit them...They cry for 10 seconds then they are fine....They usually cry a lot more with local followed by 2 staples, thus requiring papoosing...
Mark
 
southerndoc said:
The 27 g needle is much thinner than a typical suture needle. The lidocaine burns, but it's less pain than the sewing needle.
i use an 11 g needle for lidocaine. am i sadistic?
 
Don't forget the addition of bicarb to the lidocaine...

I've had procedures with lidocaine in the past, and honestly its not too bad, but, everyone's different.

Unfortuantely where I'm at Bicarb is hard to get... but at some other hospitals they had little vials of it which was perfect.

Q, DO
 
KatieOConnor said:
Do patients like me clog the ERs and waste peoples' time?

Yes. The answer is yes if you classify yourself as human. Doctors have a tendency to complain about any and all patients. Don't worry, the only ones they REALLY complain about are the ones who don't pay their bills.
 
QuinnNSU said:
Don't forget the addition of bicarb to the lidocaine...

I've had procedures with lidocaine in the past, and honestly its not too bad, but, everyone's different.

Unfortuantely where I'm at Bicarb is hard to get... but at some other hospitals they had little vials of it which was perfect.

Q, DO

The only trial I saw on the subject showed Bicarb didn't make a significant difference. I'm a big believer in slow injection though.
 
Desperado said:
The only trial I saw on the subject showed Bicarb didn't make a significant difference. I'm a big believer in slow injection though.

Anesth Analg. 1998 Feb;86(2):379-81. Related Articles, Links


The effect of needle gauge and lidocaine pH on pain during intradermal injection.

Palmon SC, Lloyd AT, Kirsch JR.

Department of Anesthesiology and Critical Care Medicine, The Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions, Baltimore, Maryland 21287, USA.

Local anesthetics can produce pain during skin infiltration. We designed a randomized, prospective trial to determine whether needle gauge and/or solution pH affect pain during the intradermal infiltration of lidocaine. After approval by our institution's human studies review board, 40 healthy adult volunteers gave their consent to participate in this study. All of the volunteers randomly received four intradermal injections. Each volunteer was blinded as to the content of the intradermal injections and to which needle size was used for each injection. Each volunteer randomly received a 0.25-mL intradermal injection of the following four solutions: 1) lidocaine 2% administered through a 25-gauge needle (lido-25); 2) lidocaine 2% mixed with sodium bicarbonate (4 mL of 2% lidocaine plus 1 mL of sodium bicarbonate, pH 7.26) administered through a 25-gauge needle (lido-bicarb-25); 3) lidocaine 2% administered through a 30-gauge needle (lido-30); and 4) lidocaine 2% mixed with sodium bicarbonate (4 mL of 2% lidocaine plus 1 mL of sodium bicarbonate) administered through a 30-gauge needle (lido-bicarb-30). In each patient, the injection site was in the same region for each of the four injections. The skin wheal was tested for appropriate anesthesia using a 19-gauge needle on the skin wheal. A visual analog pain score was recorded after each intradermal injection. The pain scores were significantly higher in the lido-25 (3.2 +/- 0.2) group than in the lido-30 (2.5 +/- 0.3), lido-bicarb-25 (1.9 +/- 0.2), and lido-bicarb-30 (1.3 +/- 0.2) groups. The lido-bicarb-30 injection was also rated as less painful than the lido-30 injection. We found no differences between the lidobicarb-25 and the lido-bicarb-30 injections. Complete analgesia for the 19-gauge needle pain stimulus was achieved in all patients for each injection. We conclude that, overall, the pain intensity of an intradermal injection of 2% lidocaine is low. The addition of sodium bicarbonate to 2% lidocaine decreases the pain associated with an intradermal skin wheal, and although the use of a 30-gauge needle decreases the pain of injection, the addition of sodium bicarbonate seems to have a greater overall effect than needle size. Implications: Forty volunteers randomly received four intradermal injections consisting of 2% lidocaine with or without sodium bicarbonate via a 25- or 30-gauge needle. The addition of bicarbonate had a greater overall effect than needle size in decreasing the pain associated with the intradermal injection of lidocaine.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial


Efficacy of alkalinized lidocaine for reducing pain on intravenous and epidural catheterization.

Nakayama M, Munemura Y, Kanaya N, Tsuchida H, Namiki A.

Department of Anesthesiology, Sapporo Medical University School of Medicine, South-1, West-16, Chuo-ku, Sapporo 060-8543, Japan.

PURPOSE: To investigate whether increasing the pH of lidocaine could reduce the pain caused by its skin infiltration as well as that caused by intravenous and epidural needle insertion. METHODS: A randomized, double-blind trial was undertaken in patients who were allocated to receive topical anesthesia with either plain (plain group; n = 25) or alkalinized lidocaine (alkalinized group; n = 25). An alkalinized lidocaine solution was prepared by adding 8.4% sodium bicarbonate to a plain 1% lidocaine solution at a ratio of 1 : 10. Pain was assessed using the verbal analog scale (VAS). RESULTS: In the alkalinized group, the VAS scores on skin infiltration in the hand (2.5 +/- 1.4) and the back (2.7 +/- 1.4) were significantly lower than the respective scores in the plain group (3.5 +/- 1.4, and 4.9 +/- 1.9). Although the VAS score on intravenous needle insertion did not differ between the two groups, the VAS score on epidural needle insertion was significantly lower in the alkalinized group (1.3 +/- 1.0) than in the plain group (3.6 +/- 1.3). CONCLUSIONS: Alkalinization of lidocaine was effective in attenuating pain on skin infiltration and on epidural needle insertion.

PMID: 14569436 [PubMed]

Neutralization of lidocaine-adrenaline. A simple method for less painful application of local anesthesia]

[Article in Danish]

Momsen OH, Roman CM, Mohammed BA, Andersen G.

Odense Universitetshospital, Plastikkirurgisk afdeling.

The amount of sodium bicarbonate necessary to neutralise commercially available lignocaine-epinephrine (pH 4.7) to physiologically neutral pH (7.4) was established. The analysis showed that neutral pH could be accomplished by adding 1.0 ml sodium bicarbonate (8.4 g/l) to 10 ml lignocaine-epinephrine (1%, 5 microgram/ml). Chemical analysis also established that the neutralised lignocaine-epinephrine was stable for 24 hours after adding sodium bicarbonate. A double-blinded randomised clinical trial with crossover design done on volunteers from hospital staff proved that injection of neutralised lignocaine-epinephrine is less painful than commercially available lignocaine-epinephrine (p < 0.001).

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 10962963 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Br J Plast Surg. 1998 Jul;51(5):385-7. Related Articles, Links


Randomised control trial of pH buffered lignocaine with adrenaline in outpatient operations.

Masters JE.

Department of Plastic Surgery Christchurch Public Hospital, New Zealand.

Bicarbonate buffering of local anaesthetics is known to significantly decrease the pain of their administration and yet few practising surgeons do so. A double-blind randomised cross-over clinical trial was conducted to confirm the practicality and efficacy of bicarbonate buffering of lignocaine with adrenaline in the setting of a busy local anaesthetic operating theatre. 40 patients received either buffered or control local anaesthetic solutions in equivalent sites on opposite sides of the body. The pain of each injection was rated from 0 (no pain) to 10 (extreme pain). The mean pain score for the buffered solution was significantly lower than the control solution (3.06 vs 4.34, P = 0.002). Bicarbonate buffering of lignocaine with adrenaline is effective, inexpensive and simple; its widespread use should be encouraged.
 
Desperado said:
The only trial I saw on the subject showed Bicarb didn't make a significant difference. I'm a big believer in slow injection though.

This confirms what you said about SI. Of note, though, I did find an article that said buffered lidocaine did not decrease pain in dorsal penis nerve blocks.

Q, DO
Ann Emerg Med. 1998 Jan;31(1):36-40. Related Articles, Links


Pain of local anesthetics: rate of administration and buffering.

Scarfone RJ, Jasani M, Gracely EJ.

Department of Pediatrics, Temple University School of Medicine, Philadelphia, PA, USA. [email protected]

STUDY OBJECTIVE: To determine the impact of administration rate and buffering on the pain associated with subcutaneous infiltration of lidocaine. METHODS: Forty-two adult volunteers employed at a tertiary care center participated in this prospective, single-blinded study. Each subject received four lidocaine injections prepared and administered as follows: slow, buffered (SB); slow, unbuffered (SU); rapid, buffered (RB); rapid, unbuffered (RU). Buffering was accomplished by mixing 1% lidocaine with 8.4% sodium bicarbonate in a 9:1 ratio. Slow administration was 30 seconds and rapid was 5 seconds. Needle size (27-gauge), injection depth (.25 inch), lidocaine volume (1.0 mL), and temperature (room) were the same for each of the four injections. In all four conditions, the needle remained in the forearm for 30 seconds, to ensure blinding. The main outcome measure was the mean pain score for each condition, as recorded on a 10-cm visual analog scale. RESULTS: The lowest pain scores (mean +/- SE) were recorded for the SU and SB conditions at 1.49 +/- 29 and 1.48 +/- 26, respectively, and they were significantly lower than the scores for RB (2.34 +/- 28; P < .01) or RU (3.11 +/- 33; P < .001). Each of the slow conditions was reported to be the "least painful" of the four significantly more often than either rapid condition. CONCLUSION: This is the largest blinded study to assess administration rate and the pain of a local anesthetic. We found that administration rate had a greater impact on the perceived pain of lidocaine infiltration than did buffering.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 9437339 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
 
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