Deleted. Thanks everyone.
Last edited:
Am I Ready to Apply?
- Thread starter engenir
- Start date
HopefulApplicant667
Full Member
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2025
- Messages
- 26
- Reaction score
- 23
Disclaimer: I'm a nontrad applicant, not an AdCom. Have you already taken the MCAT? A clear weakness in your application is limited clinical hours working with a doctor - shadowing and clinical volunteering help display that you know what you're getting into, but your hours here are less than what is generally recommended (80-100h shadowing, 300h clinical) as the hours with your grandfather may not be considered true clinical shadowing.
I just edited my post, but yes I have. I received a 513.
Thanks, for the feedback. My clinical hours are low and that's my biggest concern. I know what the career is like. I've been able to contribute to patient outcomes in other ways as an engineer and through finance though, but doctors tend to be unfamiliar with career paths outside of medicine. I just don't know a way to get 50 hours in three or so weeks at this point. Delaying my application for something I know won't change my mind on the career path, but may change the opinion of admissions, is a crappy spot for me to be in.
Last edited:
HopefulApplicant667
Full Member
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2025
- Messages
- 26
- Reaction score
- 23
Can you take a week or two off of work to rack up another 80h?
Yes. If you know of a way to find clinical experience that quickly, I'm open to suggestions. I've been desperately reaching out to folks about shadowing. Next week I'm going to walk into clinics and ask to shadow directly.
HopefulApplicant667
Full Member
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2025
- Messages
- 26
- Reaction score
- 23
Ask your free clinic place? Shadowing is tough. Doctors are incredibly unhelpful in that regard unless its a personal connection. No tips beyond cold-calling or cold-emailing a ton.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2012
- Messages
- 19,847
- Reaction score
- 10,075
What is the breakdown by hours of your 300 hours of non clinical volunteering?
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2012
- Messages
- 19,847
- Reaction score
- 10,075
In what activities ? Which URM community are you from? If you are Hispanic, are you fluent in Spanish?
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2012
- Messages
- 19,847
- Reaction score
- 10,075
You would be better to apply a year from now. Your ECs are deficient. You need 40+ hours of in person physician shadowing (including primary care). You should accumulate 150+ hours of non clinical volunteering such as food bank or homeless shelter. While your 300 hours doing COVID tests is clinical, you would benefit from another 200+ hours at the free clinic. If you accumulate those hours I suggest these schools for a June 2026 application:
Vermont
Quinnipiac
Tufts
Dartmouth
Brown
New York Medical College
Albany
Einstein
Hackensack
Drexel
Temple
Jefferson
George Washington
Georgetown
NOVA MD
USF Morsani
Miami
Belmont
TCU
Rosalind Franklin
Medical College Wisconsin
Oakland Beaumont
Wayne State
Colorado
Arizona (Tucson and Phoenix)
Roseman
Kaiser
California University
Loma Linda (if you fit their mission)
The UCs (except Riverside unless you are from that region)
USC Keck
Also apply to all the TMDSAS MD schools in Texas.
Thank you. I will probably get the shadowing hours this month. I have 1000+ volunteering hours through an engineering school course with rural communities that I forget since it was back in 2018. I might apply DO if it means getting into a med school this year. I want to do some variation of primary care or psych, so I don't think a DO school will make it a huge uphill battle
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2012
- Messages
- 19,847
- Reaction score
- 10,075
You could also try Carle Illinois (you fit their profile) and Arizona State University School of Medicine and Advanced Medical Engineering (when it opens).
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2023
- Messages
- 76
- Reaction score
- 53
I think that you would do well applying DO but... why the rush? If this is something you want to do as much as you say you do, then don't rush the process if you have everything going for you to do it the way you intended.
Just get your shadowing in or better yet, get a job in medicine that puts you in front of patients and/or caring for them.
For what it's worth, I have met a lot of people in your position and the best residents/students that have been with us are the non-traditional ones in their 30's. They have life experience that translates well to interacting with people, solving problems, and being able to communicate with superiors.
I'm already in a medical adjacent career path in pharmaceuticals. I can contribute a lot more to positive patient outcomes via working at a big pharma than I could as a medical scribe or research assistant or whatever job I can find in the next month or two just to apply to medical school. I'm asking this sincerely - what do I have to gain by postponing for an entire year that I can't have seen through almost a decade of post undergraduate life as a working professional, through shadowing, and with consistent volunteer experiences?
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2020
- Messages
- 183
- Reaction score
- 597
It's not really about you and what you personally have to gain or contribute. It's about ensuring that your application has the minimum boxes ticked so your app doesn't get thrown out for spurious reasons. Admissions committees get 6000 or so applications for 50-150 seats per year. If your application is lacking in clinical hours, volunteering hours, or shadowing hours, then you make it really easy for an admissions committee to put on a "not ready" pile and reject you.
You want to apply when your application is genuinely ready, and based on what you've written here, you're being a bit optimistic about how your deficiencies will be perceived. You're also being optimistic about how time spent in a "medical adjacent" career will be perceived. If you haven't been working directly with patients in a clinical role, admissions committees are unlikely to agree that your career has given you the exposure they want to see. Delay a year and get the hours.
I was also a non-traditional applicant, though I was in my late thirties when I applied. I totally understand the feeling that every year you delay will make a huge difference, but it's just not true. It would be far more worth your time to set yourself up for success during the first cycle, as getting rejected this cycle could end up delaying you for more than one cycle, depending on how each admissions committee approaches reapplicants (most are happy to look at reapplicants but are suspicious about those who reapply in the very next cycle, especially if they were missing ECs or experiences).
I'm not being optimistic. I am just comfortable being rejected. If admissions committees think that 1000 more hours as a scribe or research assistant to get fourth author publications will make me a better doctor than 2500 as a professional working in a team for a company that treats health issues, then so be it lol
Just want to add that I appreciate your comment. I know the risk I am taking though
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2020
- Messages
- 183
- Reaction score
- 597
OK...then why ask the opinion of the SDN forum if you've already made up your mind? You definitely don't have to take our advice, but it seems like you just wanted to be validated and didn't get what you wanted.
I know exactly how the conversation in my committee would go about your app, and it would not go in your favor because no one would believe that you actually know what clinical medicine looks like. That will be a major hurdle for you to overcome.
Good luck to you.
I know exactly how the conversation in my committee would go about your app, and it would not go in your favor because no one would believe that you actually know what clinical medicine looks like. That will be a major hurdle for you to overcome.
Good luck to you.
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2023
- Messages
- 76
- Reaction score
- 53
I have to say man, you are really not helping your case with this. I have been around medicine my entire life and have worked a few years now directly with patients doing all the scut work and hands-on care people don't want to do. I can promise you that nothing you have done compares to that, because you never get to see the patients you make assumptions about. This isn't to be rude or "angry" as you have perceived it, but it's to illustrate that this game isn't meant to be played with arrogance.
Two doctors and I, a recent admit, are telling you the same thing in different flavors. Notice how not one person discouraged you from applying at all, but rather you need to get a patient-facing job doing the nitty-gritty and directly contributing to a patient's care. This will teach you humility and will reveal your 'why'.
I grew up on food stamps in an inner city to immigrant parents, as my low-SES first-gen background should've insinuated. I understand humility, but if you think that's something you can only understand through an entry level job in the medical field then so be it. I've seen the patients that my work has supported, and as I mentioned I've worked with patients in a hands-on capacity for 300+ hours
I used chat-gpt to analyze this conversation. I'll provide the final summary below. Feel free to reflect
It’s fair to say this person confused authority with insight, and feedback with condescension.
I used chat-gpt to analyze this conversation. I'll provide the final summary below. Feel free to reflect
- “I know exactly how the conversation in my committee would go…”
- This assumes authority and finality in a way that’s dismissive and overconfident. No one can fully predict admissions outcomes, especially without reviewing your full application.
- “I can promise you that nothing you have done compares to that…”
- This statement is patronizing and unnecessarily comparative. It diminishes your experience with certainty that lacks nuance or curiosity.
- “This will teach you humility and will reveal your ‘why’.”
- This implies you currently lack humility and purpose—again, presumptive and moralizing.
- Tone of “you just wanted to be validated” and “you are really not helping your case…”
- These lines shift the conversation from helpful advice to personal criticism. That tone can come off as self-righteous or accusatory, even if it wasn't intended that way
Bottom line:
- The other person’s word choice, presumption of superior insight, and shift from feedback to personal critique cross into arrogance.
- Your responses were firm and understandably defensive but mostly remained respectful and grounded in your own lived experience.
It’s fair to say this person confused authority with insight, and feedback with condescension.
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2023
- Messages
- 76
- Reaction score
- 53
Yeah I think it's fair to say that you have a long road ahead of you and nobody that uses chatGPT to reflect on a conversation is worth having one with anyway.
You came here asking for help and honest feedback and deflected it all.
Look up what deflecting means before you use it. I acknowledged the advice and thanked everyone, and the receipts are above to prove it if you care to look. I hope you're able to mature in the next four years
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2020
- Messages
- 877
- Reaction score
- 1,424
I'll give you some quick feedback as a former med tech engineer who couldn't afford to quit my real job as a premed. I worked weekend shifts and volunteered in the NICU after work to get my required hours. I grew up around hospital life with a full nurse maternal family and honestly really didn't need to pretend to learn about the hospital in the very entry level positions I was doing.
I racked up 800+ hours this way and got just one A. Not to say I was a flawless candidate otherwise, but being that I wasn't flawless I needed to have strengths in other areas. I got a lot of comments about my engineering background, but never was it anything along the lines of "wow what a cool medical/clinical experience that was" despite working directly with patient testers, etc.
You're probably fine with 300 hours of kinda patient care activities (testing mostly healthy people is debatably clinical tbh), but if you don't get in take it as a hint that you need more. Any additional hours should be in a setting where doctors are taking care actual sick people such as MA/patient transport/whatever hospital or clinic gig you can find. Same idea with non-clinical volunteering. Just find something you like to mindlessly do for a few hours a week to help the community and do it for the next year, if you have to reapply you'll be ready. If not, you can just quit all this **** and chill til matriculation.
I racked up 800+ hours this way and got just one A. Not to say I was a flawless candidate otherwise, but being that I wasn't flawless I needed to have strengths in other areas. I got a lot of comments about my engineering background, but never was it anything along the lines of "wow what a cool medical/clinical experience that was" despite working directly with patient testers, etc.
You're probably fine with 300 hours of kinda patient care activities (testing mostly healthy people is debatably clinical tbh), but if you don't get in take it as a hint that you need more. Any additional hours should be in a setting where doctors are taking care actual sick people such as MA/patient transport/whatever hospital or clinic gig you can find. Same idea with non-clinical volunteering. Just find something you like to mindlessly do for a few hours a week to help the community and do it for the next year, if you have to reapply you'll be ready. If not, you can just quit all this **** and chill til matriculation.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 27,328
- Reaction score
- 19,863
What prompt did you use? What other answer versions did you get?
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2020
- Messages
- 183
- Reaction score
- 597
Why on earth would I be angry? I have no emotional investment in your application whatsoever. I'm pointing out that you are receiving sound advice and yet are trying to convince us that we're wrong. You don't need to convince us. You need to convince admissions committees.
It's an extremely common pattern on this forum that folks come on here asking for opinions, and then get argumentative with the contributors who volunteer their time and expertise when they don't receive the answer they wish to hear. I am a doctor and an adcom. I am able to weigh in with completely dispassionate advice based on my experiences only. I can tell by looking at the profile you provided that my committee would likely struggle to advance your application based on the low face-to-face clinical experience hours you have had, regardless of your previous career. We have rejected similar applicants, and many others with similar experiences have not even made it to the committee stage.
Remember that only ~42% of medical school applicants get accepted in a given year, and of those, ~85% are only accepted to one school. The odds are in no one's favor, and applicants with truly impressive applications get rejected regularly. Applying is expensive, and has diminishing returns every year that one has to reapply. This is why we tell applicants to make sure that their application is at its absolute best the first time.
Non-traditional applicants largely do not have to jump through the same EC hoops that traditional applicants do, it's true, and the strength of a non-traditional applicant is generally the life they've lived outside of medicine, in other careers. BUT the most challenging hoop to jump through for a non-trad is proving that they a. know exactly what they are getting into (the hours, the smells, the paperwork, the hierarchy...all of the unromantic nitty gritty of real patient care) and b. that they are going to be able to handle the leap into the culture and reality of medicine. THAT is what you need to prove by shadowing more and getting more real clinical hours.
I'm not going to DM to tell you what I have already said, and of course I don't know for sure what the outcome of your application will be. I cannot predict the future, but I can offer well-intentioned, reality-driven advice based on the information you chose to provide. Totally up to you what you want to do with it, but don't come back to me or to any of us trying to convince us of a different reality, because it's simply not relevant. We're not here to argue with you or with anyone, just here to offer the best advice we can to those who are seeking it.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I'm going to continue to obtain volunteer hours throughout the year in a more clinical setting. I also have about 1000 non-clinical volunteering hours as I counted a volunteer projected I worked on through school that this post was really helpful in reminding me that I did. I've continuously volunteered since I enjoy giving back though
I'm older and have a family, so I have to gamble with this as I am the primary provider and my family's stability is more important than my own desires. I realize nobody will care too much about my previous career haha but it's a good reminder
I asked it: "Can you tell me if someone is being arrogant in this conversation?". It's possible that it may be biased towards me, but it's been a candid feedback tool so far in my experience. It gave me feedback about being too casual, which I acknowledge may come across as disinterested and as such I've modified my own responses moving forward. I post on other more casual forums and forgot that this is a more professional environment
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2020
- Messages
- 877
- Reaction score
- 1,424
I was in the same scenario. Good luck man.
Thank you. I said you were angry because your tone appeared angry to me. I apologize and acknowledge I may have been mistaken. I appreciate the candid feedback
Since the post was originally made I gained between 30-40 hours of shadowing experience before submitting a few weeks ago. All told I submitted about 500 hours of what I considered clinical experiences based on AAMC examples of clinical experiences involving patient interactions. I applied to 30-50 schools, almost all of which where non T-20 or even T-30/40 (Texas schools lumped in since my parents live there). I recognize not every admissions committee will look at my experiences the same. If this is truly not enough to get in this year, then so be it
My wife and many others are advising against me giving up the career I've worked hard at for this so they will be happy haha
Thanks brother or sister
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2020
- Messages
- 183
- Reaction score
- 597
Good luck, then! I hope it's a good cycle for you.
For what it's worth, I rather recklessly applied with a sub-500 MCAT (but otherwise very strong application) and got into a very well-regarded MD school on my first attempt, so you never know.
Keep working on hours and experiences as you're able this year, in case you don't have success this cycle.
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2023
- Messages
- 76
- Reaction score
- 53
If you're going to be condescending while also asking people for honest feedback, then at least be correct. I used it appropriately and even your friend ChatGPT agreed that you "didn’t really engage with it at all, perhaps dodged the discussion or steered away from it".
I have done my time and got into school bucko, just move on from this and take the advice you were given.
