PhD/PsyD Am I screwed before I really begin?

[NeuroWise]

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Hello everyone,

I am a 3rd year Clinical Psychology (neuropsychology emphasis) grad student at an APA accredited PhD program. I received a C in my first statistics course and then an A when I retook it. In my second statistics course, I received another C and then an A when I retook it. Each grade will be on my transcript forever. My question is an embarrassing one: am I screwed before my career really begins? Meaning, am I going to be competitive for internship and postdoc positions with two C's on my record? Most of my other grades are A's, I am very active in research (3 first author pubs in neuroimaging/neuropsych journals and counting, >15 posters, and competitive research assistantships for funding) and am in my third, year-long neuropsych practicum experience with a couple more to go before applying for internship in my fifth year.

Give it to me straight, SDN peeps.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

see here
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/1st-year-clinical-phd-student-silly-question.1172238/

2 Cs are tough but you got As the second time on each. I wouldn't worry too much about it, especially if you excel in other areas of your training.

 

[WisNeuro]

Is it a deal-breaker? No. It does have the chance of dropping you a ranking spot here or there when being compared to students with similar backgrounds and productivity. Many programs won't allow more than one C or lower grade, so you may have to explain that.

 

[NeuroWise]

Thanks, Dynamic and WisNeuro. That's reassuring. I was considering dropping out, moving to a yurt in Alaska, and getting really into fingerpainting, but I guess I'll stick it out.

 

[Ollie123]

It hurts, but shouldn't be a dealbreaker if you have demonstrated research productivity. Beyond internship, many times places won't even ask for your transcripts (or will do so as a formality after offering you the position) so once you pass the internship phase its almost completely irrelevant. It could hurt slightly at the very research-heavy places, but if that isn't your goal I don't see it being a big deal.

If you take any more stats classes, make sure you nail them.

 

[psych844]

Sort of off-topic but what's the difficulty level of graduate stats courses compared to undergrad?

 

[WisNeuro]

Sort of off-topic but what's the difficulty level of graduate stats courses compared to undergrad?

At a good program? Grad stats is light years beyond what they expect from undergrads. If it's being done correctly, and depending on which undergrad stats we're talking about. Most psych undergrads do the minimum in terms of stats and aren't taking upper level stats courses.

 

[psych844]

At a good program? Grad stats is light years beyond what they expect from undergrads. If it's being done correctly, and depending on which undergrad stats we're talking about. Most psych undergrads do the minimum in terms of stats and aren't taking upper level stats courses.

That is sort of scary considering how many undergrads have issues with stats.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

That is sort of scary considering how many undergrads have issues with stats.

Which is why the "stats are icky" crowd is so scary. The "fun" doesn't begin until Multivariate, etc.

 

[Ollie123]

Extremely different. I've had psych undergrads who struggle with things like division and converting things to percentages (e.g. elementary school math). Some of these were generally good students. In the past, I've made the point that someone with a 4.0 undergrad GPA can be grossly unqualified to get a PhD in psychology (something that I think contributes to the professional schools...everyone thinks if they did reasonably well as an undergrad they should be able to move on to grad school).

I'll put it this way - you don't necessarily NEED matrix algebra or calculus, but one of my biggest regrets from undergrad was not taking more math courses.

 

[psych844]

Extremely different. I've had psych undergrads who struggle with things like division and converting things to percentages (e.g. elementary school math). Some of these were generally good students. In the past, I've made the point that someone with a 4.0 undergrad GPA can be grossly unqualified to get a PhD in psychology (something that I think contributes to the professional schools...everyone thinks if they did reasonably well as an undergrad they should be able to move on to grad school).

I'll put it this way - you don't necessarily NEED matrix algebra or calculus, but one of my biggest regrets from undergrad was not taking more math courses.

Hmmm. Well, 3.8 at a bad school + bad stats marks, would certainly leave some room to question that applicant.

 

[WisNeuro]

That is sort of scary considering how many undergrads have issues with stats.

Indeed, ditto what Ollie and T4C said. These are the students who go on to Fielding/Argosy/Alliant or become science journalists and ignorantly mislead the public with bad interpretation of data.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Give it to me straight, SDN peeps.

How are your other skills, e.g., interpersonal relationships with classmates, fellow externs, supervisors; clinical skills; relationships with patients?

Those grades may not mean so much if you can balance them out with stellar clinical abilities. IMO. Therefore, the focus (at internship time) becomes less on your academics, and more on what was produced from the academics (i.e., who you are as clinician now). And just for your own benefit, figure out why you did so poorly the first time around in those classes and try to a compensate for any limitations in the future...make all set-backs a learning experience. With the proper attitude, you can make it passed this without loosing confidence in your overall abilities. Just don't get anymore "C-make-up-As" again...because it just puts others in doubt of your initial dedication and/or ability (again IMO).

 

[PsychMajorUndergrad18]

Just curious,

Should I look into taking a statistics minor just to take upper level stats classes? I am currently taking applied stats and I am really grasping it but from what I am hearing from all you guys grad stats seems like a whole other ball game

 

[CheetahGirl]

Just curious,

Should I look into taking a statistics minor just to take upper level stats classes? I am currently taking applied stats and I am really grasping it but from what I am hearing from all you guys grad stats seems like a whole other ball game

The BIG deal with stats for clinical psychology is applying it to behavioral sciences.

As long as you grasp HOW you are doing WHAT, with WHOM, for WHY, then you're set. As long as your A-HA moment answers WHEN you will execute the plan also. If you can calculate numbers and understand multivariate calculus plus statistics, you should be fine. If you can't figure that out, it's like not knowing organic chemistry and trying to finish medical school. It won't happen (...too many chemical rxns involved).

Similar to Stats for Behavioral Sciences and clinical psychology (or any social science subfield for that matter). Just know why you are running the probabilities, reliabilities, frequencies, etc., and what they mean.

IMO no need to minor in it, unless you want to be "the strong stats person on the team." 😎

 

[PsychMajorUndergrad18]

Thanks CheetahGirl!

 

[NeuroWise]

How are your other skills, e.g., interpersonal relationships with classmates, fellow externs, supervisors; clinical skills; relationships with patients?

Those grades may not mean so much if you can balance them out with stellar clinical abilities. IMO. Therefore, the focus (at internship time) becomes less on your academics, and more on what was produced from the academics (i.e., who you are as clinician now). And just for your own benefit, figure out why you did so poorly the first time around in those classes and try to a compensate for any limitations in the future...make all set-backs a learning experience. With the proper attitude, you can make it passed this without loosing confidence in your overall abilities. Just don't get anymore "C-make-up-As" again...because it just puts others in doubt of your initial dedication and/or ability (again IMO).

I consider my other skills to be strong. I've received very positive feedback regarding my clinical skills (both neuropsych assessment and therapy) from all of my supervisors and many of my clients. My interpersonal relationships with classmates are also good. Although my ultimate goal is a tenure-track faculty position at an R1 university with minimal clinical responsibilities, I've put a lot of effort into developing my clinical skills in order to best prepare for internship and beyond. My hope is that my extensive research productivity and neuropsych training will allow internship sites to overlook these grade mishaps. I've even taken more stats courses to try and show I'm turning these weaknesses into strengths (or at least that I'm aware they are weaknesses).

I appreciate your positive feedback. It helped me feel less anxious.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Great, NeuroWise! So you'll be "the strong stats person on the team," if you really like it now. 😎 (Bravo sublimation, and used in a good way.)

IMO I would really push your "everything else," and/or have a thoughtful way to briefly address why you needed to take extra classes to study stats. Either way, figure out what you need to change if you want to do better, right?

 

[NeuroWise]

Great, NeuroWise! So you'll be "the strong stats person on the team," if you really like it now. 😎 (Bravo sublimation, and used in a good way.)

IMO I would really push your "everything else," and/or have a thoughtful way to briefly address why you needed to take extra classes to study stats. Either way, figure out what you need to change if you want to do better, right?

I'll gladly take the "strong stats person on the team" moniker because I'm so freaking embarrassed about those poor grades. And as far as pushing my "everything else" . . . I've convinced myself I need 20 first author pubs and 1500 hours of assessment to get top, research-friendly internship sites to even look at me (kidding. . . but kinda not). So this anxiety is proving to be somewhat beneficial because it helps me work harder!

 

[deleted343839]

I'll gladly take the "strong stats person on the team" moniker because I'm so freaking embarrassed about those poor grades. And as far as pushing my "everything else" . . . I've convinced myself I need 20 first author pubs and 1500 hours of assessment to get top, research-friendly internship sites to even look at me (kidding. . . but kinda not). So this anxiety is proving to be somewhat beneficial because it helps me work harder!

I was never much of a math person but I ended up doing a stats minor in my doctoral program. My first graduate stats course was a wake-up call! I bombed my first exam but came back strong. What helped me most was the opportunity to apply what I was learning to my research. I made a couple of study design decisions in part for the opportunity to learn a new statistical technique. Keeping studying and practicing, but also be curious and explore beyond your coursework. It will start to "click" more, gradually.

With all that said, don't feel that you have to. There is no shame in playing to your strengths. Really.

 

[deleted343839]

Should I look into taking a statistics minor just to take upper level stats classes? I am currently taking applied stats and I am really grasping it but from what I am hearing from all you guys grad stats seems like a whole other ball game

I wouldn't worry about it. If you do well in your undergraduate stats courses you'll be about as well prepared as the rest of your cohort when you start graduate school. You will forget so much in the interim because a couple of undergrad courses are really not enough for most people to attain a lasting grasp of the material. There's no need to minor in mathematical statistics unless you just really, really want to.

 

[bmedclinic]

Indeed, ditto what Ollie and T4C said. These are the students who go on to Fielding/Argosy/Alliant or become science journalists and ignorantly mislead the public with bad interpretation of data.

You mean, I too, can get a PsyD at Argrosy and write for PsychologyToday.com???? OMFG.

Of course you can, your online PsyD had specializations and tracks with specific/advanced training (conveniently, which were not stats or research based).

 

[bmedclinic]

Just curious,

Should I look into taking a statistics minor just to take upper level stats classes? I am currently taking applied stats and I am really grasping it but from what I am hearing from all you guys grad stats seems like a whole other ball game

I took "advanced stats for behavioral scientists" in undergrad, through our psych department. I'd say it helped me for the first week of my first stats class, content wise.

More than anything though, because it was at an undergrad pace (super freaking slow), the way it really helped me the most is by fostering my love/appreciation for the meaningfulness of statistics and research methods. That helped set me apart in grad school, imo.

 

[WisNeuro]

You mean, I too, can get a PsyD at Argrosy and write for PsychologyToday.com???? OMFG.

Of course you can, your online PsyD had specializations and tracks with specific/advanced training (conveniently, which were not stats or research based).

Well, that too. I was talking more about general "science" reporters. I'm always astounded at how poorly they reported some "huge" finding after I go and read the source study and see that it has been grossly misinterpreted.

 

[Ollie123]

For the average person, I don't think it is remotely necessary to minor in statistics. If your goal is to be the "stats person" would it help? Sure. 99% of psychologists are not that person. Probably 95% of R01-funded investigators at top universities are not that person. It just depends on who you are and how you want to set yourself apart.

I also fully agree with the above about "playing to your strengths." Obviously, that doesn't mean you should ignore weaknesses and not bother trying to overcome them. If you are REALLY bad at stats, that can and should be addressed in order for you to succeed. That doesn't mean you should try to become a statistician. It does mean you should figure out what you are good at, put yourself in a position where you dedicate a lot of time to that, while remaining aware that statistics is a weak area for you and finding collaborators/consultants/etc. to work with who can help fill that role.

 

[psych844]

I'm on pace to finish with A or A+ in stats (undergrad..just final exam left)..but I might get only a B+ in philosophy. Damn..imagine not making it to a grad program because of philosophy.

 

[Chalupacabra]

I had a D on my transcript from my first semester of undergrad and still got multiple offers from fully funded programs. I wouldn't worry too much about that B+, @psych844 .

 

[WisNeuro]

Just as a point in clarification, a B+ or lower on an undergraduate transcript is not the same as a B+ and lower on a graduate transcript when applying for internship spots.

 

[psych844]

Just as a point in clarification, a B+ or lower on an undergraduate transcript is not the same as a B+ and lower on a graduate transcript when applying for internship spots.

Ya, don't worry not confusing the two. But a low grade here and there (B) can do a number on the overall GPA. It seems that most Canadian programs expect a A- minimum. I should clarify I'm a 2nd degree student (first degree was polisci), so really it will only be my latest 20 classes that would be involved in GPA calculations. (less courses, therefore less room to get poorer grade)

 

[Justanothergrad]

For the average person, I don't think it is remotely necessary to minor in statistics. If your goal is to be the "stats person" would it help? Sure. 99% of psychologists are not that person. Probably 95% of R01-funded investigators at top universities are not that person. It just depends on who you are and how you want to set yourself apart.

And honestly, with the way statistics are going these days, an undergraduate minor in statistics (or heck, even standard graduate courses in statistics) won't likely teach you most of the techniques you need to use anyway in many studies. SEM, HLM, IRT, meta-analysis, etc require special efforts to the acquire skills below traditional courses. Thus its always a good idea to have friends who are quant psych folks.