Am I screwed for surgery?

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Surgeon D.O.

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Level 1: 55*

Level 2: pending

I’ve got 3-4 auditions at historical DO programs set up now
 
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I am terrified right now but the first response has already helped immensely!
 
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Apply broadly. It’s not over until the match email says it’s over
 
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Apply broadly. It’s not over until the match email says it’s over
Thanks man, it just feels surreal honestly.

Every practice test for STEP 2 was higher than my actual score, feel like s***.
 
Apply for backup specialty. Believing in rainbows is not a wise strategy
 
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Focus on former aoa programs, and newer community programs and crush your audtions. If you did better %tile wise on comlex, it might help you for the former aoa programs. You could be one of the 65-70% who match or you could be the one who don’t. All depends on how your application strategy and auditions go. I wouldn’t waste time on any MD program auditions and focus on former aoa programs. And of course apply super broadly.
 
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It’s not over. Audition and do well.
Programs do want high scores, because it decreases risk that their product will fail boards and make the program look good and continue funding, etc. They’ll also accept more average score candidates with overall low risk/solid applications knowing that there’s more to a applicant.

Look at it this way, Would you rather take a legitimate shot at what you want, and possibly fail at it and have to scramble into let’s say FM or transitional year, or give it up and take that FM slot without even trying? You may end up at the place you would rather not be regardless, but only one path offers the chance for it.

I wouldn’t give advice if you were shooting for ortho or derm but it’s worth chancing on GS with your numbers.

Stress is part of the process. Act like the surgeon you want to be and embrace it.
 
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Alright, I'm going to be the cold water here: https://public.tableau.com/app/prof.../ChartingOutcomes_osteo_2020/ChartingOutcomes . For a US DO student with a Level 1 score 550-599 and step 1 220-229, your chance of matching is abut 63%. When you add in a step 2 score of 220-229, your chance of matching falls to 20% (out of only 5 applicants who even bothered applying with those scores over the last 5 years). You are on the low end of the 550-599 range.

Neither 63% or 20% are zero... but you are taking a massive risk if you choose to apply. This is where knowing about the rest of your app and how well-liked you are by your home program plays a huge role into what you should do here. By far, your best shot is going to be if your home program loves you and seems willing to help you out because they believe you're better than those scores. If the feedback from your home program is tepid at best, then you need to be realistic and ask how you can reasonably expect another program that DOESN'T know you to take a chance on you. The cold truth is that there are more students that want to go into surgery than spots in surgical residencies, and not everyone gets the specialty they were hoping for.

You need to pick one of four paths:
-The easiest (and possibly smartest) path is changing specialties.
-Option 2 is dual-apply to surgery and a less competitive specialty; this will increase your chances of matching overall, but may diminish your chances at surgery since you're not going to spend the next two months maximizing your surgery app because you're throwing together a secondary application.
-Option 3 is go all-in for surgery, do your best to ingratiate yourself at your home program, and apply to every community program in the country; this will maximize your chances of surgery, but you accept the risk of either SOAPing into something else or winding up with an unplanned gap year. You should talk to your school NOW if you're considering this path to figure out if they would allow you to extend your graduation in case you fail to match or SOAP.
-Finally, option 4 is looking into the feasibility of pulling out of 4th year and do a research year. This would allow you to demonstrate commitment to surgery, ingratiate yourself with your home program, and gauge whether or not they like you well enough to keep you. Then you can pick from among the first 3 options at the end of the research year. The obvious downside is you are spending a year of your life without assuring yourself of any payoff at the end.

Tough spot to be in. Best of luck to you.
 
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Alright, I'm going to be the cold water here: https://public.tableau.com/app/prof.../ChartingOutcomes_osteo_2020/ChartingOutcomes . For a US DO student with a Level 1 score 550-599 and step 1 220-229, your chance of matching is abut 63%. When you add in a step 2 score of 220-229, your chance of matching falls to 20% (out of only 5 applicants who even bothered applying with those scores over the last 5 years). You are on the low end of the 550-599 range.

Neither 63% or 20% are zero... but you are taking a massive risk if you choose to apply. This is where knowing about the rest of your app and how well-liked you are by your home program plays a huge role into what you should do here. By far, your best shot is going to be if your home program loves you and seems willing to help you out because they believe you're better than those scores. If the feedback from your home program is tepid at best, then you need to be realistic and ask how you can reasonably expect another program that DOESN'T know you to take a chance on you. The cold truth is that there are more students that want to go into surgery than spots in surgical residencies, and not everyone gets the specialty they were hoping for.

You need to pick one of four paths:
-The easiest (and possibly smartest) path is changing specialties.
-Option 2 is dual-apply to surgery and a less competitive specialty; this will increase your chances of matching overall, but may diminish your chances at surgery since you're not going to spend the next two months maximizing your surgery app because you're throwing together a secondary application.
-Option 3 is go all-in for surgery, do your best to ingratiate yourself at your home program, and apply to every community program in the country; this will maximize your chances of surgery, but you accept the risk of either SOAPing into something else or winding up with an unplanned gap year. You should talk to your school NOW if you're considering this path to figure out if they would allow you to extend your graduation in case you fail to match or SOAP.
-Finally, option 4 is looking into the feasibility of pulling out of 4th year and do a research year. This would allow you to demonstrate commitment to surgery, ingratiate yourself with your home program, and gauge whether or not they like you well enough to keep you. Then you can pick from among the first 3 options at the end of the research year. The obvious downside is you are spending a year of your life without assuring yourself of any payoff at the end.

Tough spot to be in. Best of luck to you.
Home program would be an affiliated program with OP’s school? Since very few DO schools have true home programs, for example my school has “home program for surgery “ but it’s just a community former AOA program that’s one our core sites and likes taking our students. OP should def do one of their Sub-I’s at such an affiliated program.
 
Home program would be an affiliated program with OP’s school? Since very few DO schools have true home programs, for example my school has “home program for surgery “ but it’s just a community former AOA program that’s one our core sites and likes taking our students. OP should def do one of their Sub-I’s at such an affiliated program.
Yes that’s what I mean by home program in this case. Basically a place that may know him better and be willing to take a chance despite scores
 
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It's not letting me tag a dude named Spectreman who I feel could offer you some perspective. He matched surgery with lower scores. He obviously did things right. Try to PM him if possible.
 
I appreciate the responses everyone. I have been thinking long and hard and think I am going all in with general surgery + a bunch of prelims.

This is not the way I wanted to go but I cannot talk myself into applying to anything else.
 
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I appreciate the responses everyone. I have been thinking long and hard and think I am going all in with general surgery + a bunch of prelims.

This is not the way I wanted to go but I cannot talk myself into applying to anything else.
As I said above—talk to your school NOW about a contingency plan of what your options will be if you fail to match and/or SOAP. This is a rational choice, as at least you will be able to sleep at night knowing you took your shot. But you need to have plan B lined up.

Also, you don’t need to answer this here… but you need to have an answer for why a program should take you over other applicants with clearly superior stats. The answer also can’t be that you’ll crush the interview. ERAS is not governed completely by luck, there needs to be something demonstrable on your application that a program may look at that will convince them to interview you.
 
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totally random question. Why do people only give a range of their board scores when they report them on SDN? Isn't 220 a big difference compared to 229?
 
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Thanks everyone.

What is a healthy number of prelims to apply to in my situation because I honestly don't know?

Should I only apply to places where I applied to their categorical?
 
Thanks everyone.

What is a healthy number of prelims to apply to in my situation because I honestly don't know?

Should I only apply to places where I applied to their categorical?
I would apply to 40. Try and find places that have a track record of placing their prelims. Some places simply use the prelims as scut monkeys for a year and will not help you get a spot.
 
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totally random question. Why do people only give a range of their board scores when they report them on SDN? Isn't 220 a big difference compared to 229?
Privacy.

If you posted your exact S1 and S2 score, and can see what school you come from (which is often in post history), programs can theoretically figure out who you are. The chance of that actually happening or making any negative difference is miniscule.
 
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I would apply to 40. Try and find places that have a track record of placing their prelims. Some places simply use the prelims as scut monkeys for a year and will not help you get a spot.
Anywhere you recommend finding that info? Or do I just have to do a lot of digging?
 
What's the point of applying to prelims instead of applying to a backup categorical specialty, like IM/FM/EM?

If you only match a prelim, you still have to reapply. And it doesn't really increase your chances of actually getting surgery.

I get that you don't want to do anything but surgery, but matching into a categorical position (and having a job for life) is much better than matching into a prelim, but with the potential of never actually getting anything after that.
 
And it doesn't really increase your chances of actually getting surgery.
It does actually. Once you match a secondary specialty it’s over.

Most US prelims do actually get positions. It just may not be surgery. Personally, I’d leave medicine before doing a non-surgical specialty. I get why people would want to take a second crack at a categorical surgery spot before throwing in the towel completely.
 
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I would rather put in a year of preliminary and have a second go around than apply to a back up at this time
 
It does actually. Once you match a secondary specialty it’s over.

Most US prelims do actually get positions. It just may not be surgery. Personally, I’d leave medicine before doing a non-surgical specialty. I get why people would want to take a second crack at a categorical surgery spot before throwing in the towel completely.
My only thought would be if you switched to IM and then basically focused all your energy into doing something like interventional cards or EP. Those are pretty close to surgery from my understanding, but obviously there is a lot of not surgery that you would have to do beforehand
 
My only thought would be if you switched to IM and then basically focused all your energy into doing something like interventional cards or EP. Those are pretty close to surgery from my understanding, but obviously there is a lot of not surgery that you would have to do beforehand
In addition to not really being surgery, those fellowships are also exceedingly competitive.

I would rather put in a year of preliminary and have a second go around than apply to a back up at this time
And what is your plan if you fail to match a second time?

You don't have to actually have an answer for that yet, as it's several branches in the decision path down the line. But if your plan B really is "take a prelim spot and try to get my foot in the door," you'll need to decide pretty quickly what your plan C is if that still doesn't work out. As outlined above, will be other paths open to you following a prelim year other than surgery. However, there won't be a ton of time to figure out which one would make you happiest between the stresses of being a surgical intern and applying for categorical spots. So my advice to you would be to spend the first half of this year rocking as many auditions as possible, but if time permits think about an elective or two in the spring in other fields that would potentially be open to you following a surgical prelim year.

Hopefully it is all for naught and you wind up matching this year (or at the very latest, next year after prelim). But end of 4th year will probably be your only opportunity to really consider what you want your non-surgical backup to be.
 
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I hope the OP doesn't mind my jumping on this thread. I have a friend that is also in a similar conundrum.
His Comlex 1 is 59* and Comlex 2 is 49*. His USMLE I & II are 23* and 24* respectively. So, is he screwed for surgery?
 
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Level 2 is 57* for what it’s worth at this point.
 
I hope the OP doesn't mind my jumping on this thread. I have a friend that is also in a similar conundrum.
His Comlex 1 is 59* and Comlex 2 is 49*. His USMLE I & II are 23* and 24* respectively. So, is he screwed for surgery?
When you have such drastic variance in scores, you don't have a ton of data. Nobody in the interactive charting outcomes had that exact score distribution in the last 5 years. FWIW, excluding comlex scores the odds are 77%, and interestingly enough rise to 86% when you include comlex 1.

Again, the important thing to keep in mind that these are all statistics that apply on a population level and do not predict a specific outcome for a specific applicant. The people who match, and indeed the people who choose to apply in the first place, know there are other parts of their application that convince them that they stand a decent shot in this moderately competitive specialty. But even if your odds are 90%, that means you could fail to match, and similarly someone out there is going to get in despite 10% odds.

It's basically Schrodinger's cat until you open the match envelope. This is where one has to be honest with themselves and elicit frank feedback from mentors who can give unbiased advice on whether it's worth shooting the shot.
Level 2 is 57* for what it’s worth at this point.
None of the 3 applicants with exactly your score distribution matched. Showing the power of small sample sizes, 4/6 who had a level 1 score 500-549 DID match, so maybe you could imagine your odds are closer to 4/9 or just under 50/50. Again... I would say these are highly selected applicant pools, where they only applied if they knew that there was something else in their application that was going to make them stand out (very strong signals from home or affiliated program, significant research, etc). Ultimately only you can weigh those specifics.
 
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I suppose I should still report my Step 2 right? Or is not reporting Steps even still a thing?
 
I suppose I should still report my Step 2 right? Or is not reporting Steps even still a thing?
You can either report both USMLE scores, or neither. FWIW, if you input your comlex scores and put in a "null" USMLE score, you get a match rate in the 70s%, though again small sample size with 9 applicants. Again, I cannot overstate the importance of the signals you get from programs that you have close connections to.
 
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I suppose I should still report my Step 2 right? Or is not reporting Steps even still a thing?
Report your Step if you have even a single MD program on your list.
 
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Do DO programs filter applicants by Comlex II score? Or is it a more holistic review taking into account Comlex I, Step scores, LoRs etc.?
 
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Do DO programs filter applicants by Comlex II score? Or is it a more holistic review taking into account Comlex I, Step scores, LoRs etc.?
Yes. Many have the same cutoff for Level 2 as Level 1
 
Yes. Many have the same cutoff for Level 2 as Level 1
Thanks for your message.

Just so I understand it fully, if someone has a decent set of Step scores, a good Level 1 but a poor Level 2, will they not even get a look?
 
Thanks for your message.

Just so I understand it fully, if someone has a decent set of Step scores, a good Level 1 but a poor Level 2, will they not even get a look?
MD programs will only really care about Step. DO programs might hold it against you to varying degrees
 
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Mini hijack OP but it may help you too. Imma applying to some prelim surgery too, anyone on here know any decent programs that wont use me as nothing but scut for a year and could help me land categorical in the future? or at least any programs to absolutely avoid at all costs lol. Ive been looking but honestly have not found a lot of helpful info.
 
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Mini hijack OP but it may help you too. Imma applying to some prelim surgery too, anyone on here know any decent programs that wont use me as nothing but scut for a year and could help me land categorical in the future? or at least any programs to absolutely avoid at all costs lol. Ive been looking but honestly have not found a lot of helpful info.
This data does not exist, or at least is not publicly available. You're going to need to ask your mentors which programs they have seen students land categorical spots from, and also ask that question of the prelim programs you interview with.
 
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Mini hijack OP but it may help you too. Imma applying to some prelim surgery too, anyone on here know any decent programs that wont use me as nothing but scut for a year and could help me land categorical in the future? or at least any programs to absolutely avoid at all costs lol. Ive been looking but honestly have not found a lot of helpful info.
Hahah no worries, I can't find too much info that is real promising either as of yet.

Does anyone know if the "signals" or "geographic preference" on ERAS supplemental actually carry any weight or is just something to stress med students out with that no one will actually pay attention to?
 
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Hahah no worries, I can't find too much info that is real promising either as of yet.

Does anyone know if the "signals" or "geographic preference" on ERAS supplemental actually carry any weight or is just something to stress med students out with that no one will actually pay attention to?
Almost certainly will be program dependent. I would suspect that community programs in less desirable locations would be more likely to care, but it's honestly just speculation.
 
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Just an update for those of you who cared enough to help me out, I am currently sitting on 10 interviews with 11 invites (conflict of dates with the 11th interview that I am trying to work out).

Hoping more are still on the way!
 
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Just an update for those of you who cared enough to help me out, I am currently sitting on 10 interviews with 11 invites (conflict of dates with the 11th interview that I am trying to work out).

Hoping more are still on the way!
Freaking awesome. Hopefully a few more come in. Exciting times. I look forward to a write up similar to DOVinciRobots when you match.
 
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Just an update for those of you who cared enough to help me out, I am currently sitting on 10 interviews with 11 invites (conflict of dates with the 11th interview that I am trying to work out).

Hoping more are still on the way!
Bruh do not delete this post as indicated by the edit to the original post. Let this be inspiration to those of us coming after you.

Sticky if anything, but damn sure don't delete this.
 
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Bruh do not delete this post as indicated by the edit to the original post. Let this be inspiration to those of us coming after you.

Sticky if anything, but damn sure don't delete this.
Hopefully I will be able to make a thread in March with even better news and a write up.
 
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It does actually. Once you match a secondary specialty it’s over.

Is this surgery specific? From what I've seen it's not common but not rare for people to switch between non-surgical fields
 
UPDATE***

Had a lot of support here so figured I’d provide a quick update. Not planning a write up or anything at this time but I matched a categorical spot!!!
 
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UPDATE***

Had a lot of support here so figured I’d provide a quick update. Not planning a write up or anything at this time but I matched a categorical spot!!!

WOO CONGRATS! NOW YOUR USERNAME MATCHES WHO YOU ARE, DR. SUGREON D.O.
 
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