AMA Supports Ending "DO Discrimination"

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interesting....you'd think the AOA would have a better understanding of how students felt about them overall and the issues that we deem pressing....I guess it could be a positive thing if they see the constant, candid, non-sugar-coated opinions on here....

Taus

I'll venture to say it is not ignorance of the opinions of students at SDN which keeps the AOA from changing in the direction desired by such students.

I think they are well aware of the existence of this opposition within their organization. They just don't agree with the opinion of the opposition group, and at the same time are also backed by a substantial number of DOs and students who support most of the AOAs stands. I, for example, do not agree with all the ideas of the students who oppose the AOA and tend to lean towards the side of the AOA more. Not everyone on the osteopathic community shares most of the opinions given at SDN. While those who agree with the AOA may not be as vocal on SDN, we do exist.

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Taus

I'll venture to say it is not ignorance of the opinions of students at SDN which keeps the AOA from changing in the direction desired by such students.

I think they are well aware of the existence of this opposition within their organization. They just don't agree with the opinion of the opposition group, and at the same time are also backed by a substantial number of DOs and students who support most of the AOAs stands. I, for example, do not agree with all the ideas of the students who oppose the AOA and tend to lean towards the side of the AOA more. Not everyone on the osteopathic community shares most of the opinions given at SDN. While those who agree with the AOA may not be as vocal on SDN, we do exist.

I honestly have no idea why you have so many blatantly stupid things in your signature. :thumbdown: Most of the links are dead anyway.
 
I honestly have no idea why you have so many blatantly stupid things in your signature. :thumbdown: Most of the links are dead anyway.

I have them so I can delight seeing nitwits like you getting all worked up about them :laugh:

Just kidding

Thanks for noticing though, I'll make sure to send you a personalized PM once I have all the links running again

Love u too drmax... ;)
 
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I honestly have no idea why you have so many blatantly stupid things in your signature. :thumbdown: Most of the links are dead anyway.

At least fix your sig before you criticize others :rolleyes:
 
#1 - the AOA is the most self-destructive, self-deprecating organization I have ever seen. The "good ole boys" that run the show are so cynical and embittered by their years of discrimination they run scared and fight hard against a ghost they believe is after the profession. It's quite hilarious. If as much energy was put into solving the lack of ***"QUALITY"*** DO residencies and ***"QUALITY"*** DO hospitals the profession might live a long a fruitful life. Alas, I fear even the most tremendous changes to the profession cannot safe our medicine from the tailspin of death.

#2 - I'm glad to hear the AMA supports ending discrimination because the AOA certainly does not. Take a look at the internship requirements in the 5 states. How is that not discrimination against DO's? Are you kidding me? Are you all blind? If we're so G-D equal as the "good ole boys" are fighting so hard to achieve then why do I deserved to forbare/defer my $249,000 medical school debt/loans at 5%+ for an extra year? Don't you dare say it's to make us better physicians because I'll show you 10 DO hospitals right now that I wouldn't take my dying worst enemy too for care. So, I ask again, are you out of your G-D minds? Please tell me your kidding!

My wife is an allo at a major university and not ONCE has she or I been met with derogatory comments about me being a DO by any of her classmates or professors.

Chasing your tail, fighting a ghost, whatever you call it the AOA is a joke until they see the real quality problems within the clinical education/options afforded to osteopathic medical students...

/end Off my chest
 
#1 - the AOA is the most self-destructive, self-deprecating organization I have ever seen. The "good ole boys" that run the show are so cynical and embittered by their years of discrimination they run scared and fight hard against a ghost they believe is after the profession. It's quite hilarious. If as much energy was put into solving the lack of ***"QUALITY"*** DO residencies and ***"QUALITY"*** DO hospitals the profession might live a long a fruitful life. Alas, I fear even the most tremendous changes to the profession cannot safe our medicine from the tailspin of death.

#2 - I'm glad to hear the AMA supports ending discrimination because the AOA certainly does not. Take a look at the internship requirements in the 5 states. How is that not discrimination against DO's? Are you kidding me? Are you all blind? If we're so G-D equal as the "good ole boys" are fighting so hard to achieve then why do I deserved to forbare/defer my $249,000 medical school debt/loans at 5%+ for an extra year? Don't you dare say it's to make us better physicians because I'll show you 10 DO hospitals right now that I wouldn't take my dying worst enemy too for care. So, I ask again, are you out of your G-D minds? Please tell me your kidding!

My wife is an allo at a major university and not ONCE has she or I been met with derogatory comments about me being a DO by any of her classmates or professors.

Chasing your tail, fighting a ghost, whatever you call it the AOA is a joke until they see the real quality problems within the clinical education/options afforded to osteopathic medical students...

/end Off my chest

Its discrimination in those five states yea, i guess, but its coming from within the DO community. it was the DO standards for DOs that brought about the extra year requirement in those states. if the DOs that have the say there decide to change it to be what EVERY OTHER STATE IS, then it is that simple. but as of now, THEY ARE STUBBORN AND WANT THE WORLD TO KNOW THAT DOS NEED AN EXTRA YEAR OF RESIDENCY TO PERFORM COMPETENTLY... whatever.... the DO world is so messed up... its just because of DOs that are in power - has nothing to do with the MDs....
 
1. what are they really gonna do to you?

2. if they monitored this site then they would be pretty clear on student opinion of them....which doesn't appear to be the case

1. blacklist him within the AOA so he never has a leadership role? arguably the AOA does this already by forbidding those who have done allo residencies to have leadership roles (iirc). creates and sustains a mono culture.

2. i think others are saying it's not that the AOA doesn't know what student opinion is, rather that the AOA doesn't care. see the mono culture point in # 2.
 
#1 - the AOA is the most self-destructive, self-deprecating organization I have ever seen. The "good ole boys" that run the show are so cynical and embittered by their years of discrimination they run scared and fight hard against a ghost they believe is after the profession. It's quite hilarious. If as much energy was put into solving the lack of ***"QUALITY"*** DO residencies and ***"QUALITY"*** DO hospitals the profession might live a long a fruitful life. Alas, I fear even the most tremendous changes to the profession cannot safe our medicine from the tailspin of death.

:laugh:

Thank you! I needed that.
 
I'm not applying to either DO or MD schools, but for the sake of conversation, are there any DO schools which permit MD students to attend elective rotations at their schools, whether it be OMT, surgery sub-i, ICU, etc?
 
1. blacklist him within the AOA so he never has a leadership role? arguably the AOA does this already by forbidding those who have done allo residencies to have leadership roles (iirc). creates and sustains a mono culture.

2. i think others are saying it's not that the AOA doesn't know what student opinion is, rather that the AOA doesn't care. see the mono culture point in # 2.

Blacklisting DO's who finish ACGME-recognized residencies? That has got to be the craziest thing I've ever heard (no, I do not doubt at all what you wrote). :mad:

I would expect the flagship organization of a respected profession to act more professional than that.
 
#1 - the AOA is the most self-destructive, self-deprecating organization I have ever seen. The "good ole boys" that run the show are so cynical and embittered by their years of discrimination they run scared and fight hard against a ghost they believe is after the profession. It's quite hilarious. If as much energy was put into solving the lack of ***"QUALITY"*** DO residencies and ***"QUALITY"*** DO hospitals the profession might live a long a fruitful life. Alas, I fear even the most tremendous changes to the profession cannot safe our medicine from the tailspin of death.

#2 - I'm glad to hear the AMA supports ending discrimination because the AOA certainly does not. Take a look at the internship requirements in the 5 states. How is that not discrimination against DO's? Are you kidding me? Are you all blind? If we're so G-D equal as the "good ole boys" are fighting so hard to achieve then why do I deserved to forbare/defer my $249,000 medical school debt/loans at 5%+ for an extra year? Don't you dare say it's to make us better physicians because I'll show you 10 DO hospitals right now that I wouldn't take my dying worst enemy too for care. So, I ask again, are you out of your G-D minds? Please tell me your kidding!

My wife is an allo at a major university and not ONCE has she or I been met with derogatory comments about me being a DO by any of her classmates or professors.

Chasing your tail, fighting a ghost, whatever you call it the AOA is a joke until they see the real quality problems within the clinical education/options afforded to osteopathic medical students...

/end Off my chest
Sad but well written and TRUE. I am a product of one of the 5? states (thought there were only 4).
 
AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES


Resolution: 809
(I-05)

Introduced by: Medical Student Section

Subject: Equal Fees for Osteopathic and Allopathic Medical Students

Referred to: Reference Committee K
(Eugenia Marcus, MD, Chair)



Whereas, The American Medical Association has current policy supporting the equal acknowledgement of both Doctors of Medicine (MDs) and Doctors of Osteopathy (DOs) (AMA Policies H-405.989 and G-635.053); and

Whereas, Some allopathic institutions clearly state that all US trained allopathic and osteopathic medical students who have taken the United States Medical Licensing Examination and/or Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Examination are eligible to complete rotations; and

Whereas, Some allopathic institutions currently charge visiting students of American Osteopathic Association-accredited medical schools an “administrative fee” that is not charged to visiting Liaison Committee on Medical Education medical students; and

Whereas, A majority of US clinical training programs do not establish differing fee scales for allopathic versus osteopathic-trained medical students; therefore be it

RESOLVED, That American Medical Association Policies H-405.989, “Physicians and Surgeons,” and G-635.053, “AMA Membership Strategy: Osteopathic Medicine,” be reaffirmed (Reaffirm HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA discourage discrimination by institutions and programs based on osteopathic or allopathic training (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA support equal fees for clinical rotation externships by osteopathic and allopathic medical students (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA encourage that Liaison Committee on Medical Education- and Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education-accredited institutions maintain fair practice standards for equal access to all US medical students, osteopathic and allopathic. (New HOD Policy)



Fiscal Note: Staff cost estimated at less than $500 to implement.

Received: 9/20/05


RELEVANT AMA POLICY

H-405.989 Physicians and Surgeons
(1) It is AMA policy to refer only to Doctors of Medicine (MDs) and Doctors of Osteopathy (DOs) as “physicians and surgeons.” (2) The AMA supports working to ensure that federal and state regulations and hospital medical staff bylaws comply with this designation. (Res. 78, I-88; Reaffirmed: Sunset Report, I-98; Reaffirmed in lieu of Res. 615, A-05)

G-635.053 AMA Membership Strategy: Osteopathic Medicine
Our AMA’s membership strategy on osteopathic physicians (DOs) includes the following: Our AMA: (1) encourages all state societies to accept DOs as members at every level of the Federation; (2) encourages state societies with schools of osteopathic medicine to support development of Medical Student Sections at those schools; both the MSS Governing Council and existing MSS chapters in states with osteopathic schools should assist in this effort; (3) encourages that DO members of our AMA continue to participate in the Member-Get-a-Member program; (4) will provide recruiters with targeted lists of DO nonmembers upon request; (5) will include DOs, as appropriate, in direct nonmember mailings; and (6) will expand its database of information on osteopathic students and doctors. (BOT Rep. I-93-11; Consolidated: CLRPD Rep. 3, I-01)



University of Colorado Health Sciences Center interview speech, "we don't require $10,000 deposit to hold a seat like some startup DO school, sheesh..."

*****s running allopathic schools (I go to an allopathic school).


Beached whale = Allopathic schools.

These schools are so big, set in their ways, and unresponsive to new/better methods that allopathic schools are beached whales. Too big, cumbersome, and fragmentally paralyzed to do a damn thing.

DO schools--often being newer do not suffer from these problems nearly as much.

Sleep well, you have made a good choice if in a DO school (or pleased with your allopathic one). Our (a top 10 public allo school) is a beaurocratic disaster.

Professors stand in front of us in lecture and say, "if we were to make a medical school, we would no nothing like we are doing here."

"The number of hours and us reading you PowerPoints all day is an odd thing to get for your tuition dollars."

Get the drift?

Anyone dissing DO's or DO schools is clearly conveying ONE thing: they do not know jack &#^#.
 
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AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION HOUSE OF DELEGATES
Resolution: 809
(I-05)
Introduced by: Medical Student Section
Subject: Equal Fees for Osteopathic and Allopathic Medical Students
Referred to: Reference Committee K
(Eugenia Marcus, MD, Chair)

Does anyone know the current status of this resolution?
Also, anyone know if the AOA ever took up the AMA on their offer to be voting members in the AMA house of delegates? I saw this invitation mentioned in a 1997 ACP article (link), and then mentioned on the AMA HOD (link) that the AOA is eligible to sit in AMA's HOD.

If anyone's got any current details to this story, I'm very curious.

bth
 
I agree with exmike and mix...
I'm sick to death (and I'm sick of typing "sick to death") of DO students and the AOA touting how compassionate DOs are...how they have better bedside manner...how they tx the patient not the disease...
The only people that buy into that nonsense are the fringes (and unfortunately the loudest) of osteopathic medicine.

The AOA does not speak for all members of the profession it overseas, mainly becuase so many DOs are sick of the political crap and go allopathic from residency on.

It is intrinsically arrogant to parade around claiming DOs are better physicians simply because their initials vary by 1 letter with the facade of "extra training" being the reason. More musculoskeletal education? Possible, and this varies from school to school, both MD and DO, but outside years 1 and 2 (which includes OMM didactics and labs), the only difference in clinicals is that most MD schools have the luxury of affording their students consistent rotations and educational opportunities at their teaching facilities...most DO schools (save the few at larger universities) send their students out to various hospitals. The clinical organization of DO schools pales in comparison to most allopathic institutions, not necessarily in quality of educaiton, but definately in organization and availability.

Well said. :thumbup:
 
This is the first time I've checked the DO forum and I have to say that you all seem much more politically aware than those in the allo forum.

I'd highly suggest joining the AMA. I joined through an info meeting from my school's chapter but I don't see any reason why you can't apply directly through the AMA's website:

https://membership.ama-assn.org/JoinRenew/search.jsp?checkXwho=done#

It's $68 for four years of med school and you get subscriptions to JAMA and American medical news (AMNews). AMNews IMO is a great source of information about the political and business side of medicine.

I know the AMA has a bad reputation (at least at my school) for some boneheaded decisions it made a few decades back. However, most of its aims now seem to be squarely in the best interests in doctors and it is well organized.

In regard to the AMA's resolution, I hope it passed. Opening up residency slots to all doctors should increase the quality of applicants at the most competitive slots and make the process more efficient. I think repricocity would be another good step :thumbup:
 
Quick question : aren't there osteopath only residencies?

I mean, if the LCGME is going to end discrimination against D.O.s in allopathic residencies, it sounds like one of the terms of the deal would have to be that all osteopath only residencies would have to start taking allopathic students, also without discriminating.

Boy, I bet some of the hardcore allopathic gunners would like to get a shot at some of the osteopath derm residencies...

I mean, in general, "without discriminating" means that if you have two applicants, and one blows the other away on objective, numerical evaluations then you need to find a pretty darn good reason not to take the person with the higher numbers.

And while all medical students are smart, I would suspect that the hardcore gunners who are flat out talented at taking tests and otherwise manipulating the system are found more often in allopathic schools.

So, 'leveling' the playing field might not help D.O.s as much as you think...
 
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It looks like the ideas of combining licensing, matching, and residency opportunities have progressed little since 2003. Does anyone know what the timeline would most likely be expected to get these changes made in they are adopted in 2009?

Are we talking >5 years out to combine the do/md systems or is it possible for this to happen sooner?
 
AMA HOD resolution 302 in 2008 still in reference comittee for review
 

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Tell me, if I wanted to do a rotation at a DO institution would I come up against "discrimination" as an Allopath? My guess is yes. How many DO residencies are open to MDs? How many allopathic students are allowed to rotate at DO schools...

The fact is, DOs find MD residencies more desirable and want equal access to our residency programs without offering the same to MD students (although I don't know of any MDs who are at all interested in DO residencies/rotations). Perhaps this is something prospective DOs should consider before going to an Osteopathic school, rather than expecting equal footing with MDs when it comes to our residency programs.
 
The fact is, DOs find MD residencies more desirable and want equal access to our residency programs without offering the same to MD students (although I don't know of any MDs who are at all interested in DO residencies/rotations).

I think location may play a factor in this too. Both sides would benefit from that standpoint.
 
I th
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ink location may play a factor in this too. Both sides would benefit from that standpoint.

Absolutely.
 
so as MD students, we still don't have a shot at some DO residencies, right?
 
I'm an MD student that would be open to DO residencies....why the hell wouldn't I? Do orthopedic residents still have to practice OMT? The might not be extremely desirable location-wise...but opportunities are opportunities aren't they?
I for one believe that you deserve a shot at any residency, DO or MD. I think we all need to just grow up and realize that if an MD or DO scores highly on the boards, he/she deserves that score and should not be limited in residency choice. I am a DO student and will fully admit that I will apply to DO and MD residencies with hopes of getting into which ever one will train me to be the best physician. After all that is the key word is it not, MD and DO are both recognized as "fully licensed physicians", we should be training and learning together.
 
Completely Agree!! A lot of good posts and good opinions I am reading here... most of the DO "youth" seems to be on the same page just a matter of voicing loud enough to get the attention and the understanding from the old-school DO's that run the AOA. But congrats to the AOA for their strong effort in AOA awareness and working to become recognized over-seas, but I think they need to listen to us more in policies and procedures here in the homeland...
 
I think the reason the AOA doesn't want this is because of the end result.
There has been more and more mixing within the MD/DO families recently and this has led to MD using OMM etc and being more accepting of the hallowed osteopathic 'traditions.' This has in turn led to dilution of their osteopathic only propaganda which doesn't resonate with many DOs.

The leaders, who nobody cares about, at the AOA are starting to realize that DO/MD combining may be asked again.
I know if someone asked me, I would be all for it. I think there is no need for 2 parallel systems that function almost identically.
 
AMA and AOA both stink. Just look at how the AMA supported Obamacare. These are just lobby groups playing politics. Certainly the AMA will sell out MDs at a moment's notice. I'm not as familiar with the AOA (although I'm sure I will be as I start DO school in August). My impression is that they'll do what is in their best interests, not the DOs themselves. Am I jaded? No, just realistic.
 
It seems like the AMA is listening to the AOA and making things equal, but allopathic students are still not allowed to match into osteopathic residencies. Check me if im wrong but it seems like hypocrisy.

No, that's not hypocrisy.

D.O students are allowed to match into allopathic residencies according to their USMLE scores.

Why should M.D students be allowed to match into osteopathic residencies without taking the D.O exam?

Students that have graduated from D.O school, taking both exams have learned what it takes to be a D.O, and what it takes to be an M.D. Therefore, both options are available.

Students who have graduated from M.D school have learned what it takes to work as an M.D. That's the material they learn, so an M.D residency is the option they have.

Again, the biology material is the same. But the APPROACH to treatment is from a different perspective, as explained by AACOMAS.
 
Tell me, if I wanted to do a rotation at a DO institution would I come up against "discrimination" as an Allopath? My guess is yes. How many DO residencies are open to MDs? How many allopathic students are allowed to rotate at DO schools...

The fact is, DOs find MD residencies more desirable and want equal access to our residency programs without offering the same to MD students (although I don't know of any MDs who are at all interested in DO residencies/rotations). Perhaps this is something prospective DOs should consider before going to an Osteopathic school, rather than expecting equal footing with MDs when it comes to our residency programs.

Equal footing is expected, because the M.D residencies are determined by the board scores. That's it. A 3.0GPA at Harvard is not priority over a 3.0GPA at a public state school, as some harshly learn from the gruesome application process.

Maybe M.D schools can allow the students to take the D.O exam, therefore, compete for a D.O residency by their scores from it. That would be a possible solution.
 
Quick question : aren't there osteopath only residencies?

I mean, if the LCGME is going to end discrimination against D.O.s in allopathic residencies, it sounds like one of the terms of the deal would have to be that all osteopath only residencies would have to start taking allopathic students, also without discriminating.

Boy, I bet some of the hardcore allopathic gunners would like to get a shot at some of the osteopath derm residencies...

I mean, in general, "without discriminating" means that if you have two applicants, and one blows the other away on objective, numerical evaluations then you need to find a pretty darn good reason not to take the person with the higher numbers.

And while all medical students are smart, I would suspect that the hardcore gunners who are flat out talented at taking tests and otherwise manipulating the system are found more often in allopathic schools.

So, 'leveling' the playing field might not help D.O.s as much as you think...

Regarding "hardcore gunners who are flat out talented at taking tests and otherwise manipulating the system are found more often in allopathic schools."

I actually kind of agree with that. I'm not saying all M.D students are like that! That wouldn't be fair, considering I know a lot of M.D students that are not like that at all. But I also know D.O students who are ridiculously smart, but they are not the greatest test-takers. But when it comes to dealing with patients, problem-solving, diagnosis, they are so quick and efficient in their job. My M.D friends are more systematic, step-by-step, 123 sort of thing. Sort of like: This is the problem. The textbook solution treatment is this."

Of course, I am in no way generalizing this to be everyone! These are just some observations.
 
Students that have graduated from D.O school, taking both exams have learned what it takes to be a D.O, and what it takes to be an M.D. Therefore, both options are available.

Students who have graduated from M.D school have learned what it takes to work as an M.D. That's the material they learn, so an M.D residency is the option they have.

Again, the biology material is the same. But the APPROACH to treatment is from a different perspective, as explained by AACOMAS.

Wow.

Don't listen to AACOMAS and their "DOs are holistic" crap. All physicians are "holistic" and think about the entire patient.

DO school and MD school both teach you how to evaluate, diagnose, and treat diseases THE SAME WAY.

Don't assume that there is a difference in the way DOs and MDs are trained.
 
I for one believe that you deserve a shot at any residency, DO or MD. I think we all need to just grow up and realize that if an MD or DO scores highly on the boards, he/she deserves that score and should not be limited in residency choice. I am a DO student and will fully admit that I will apply to DO and MD residencies with hopes of getting into which ever one will train me to be the best physician. After all that is the key word is it not, MD and DO are both recognized as "fully licensed physicians", we should be training and learning together.

Other posts previous referred to AMA as unrepresentative of the MD community by supporting the Obamacare, yet still being "the UN of medicine". So which is it? In other words, should the AOA be extending an olive branch toward an organization that does not represent its members any more than this AMA gesture of extending an olive branch toward an unrepresentative AOA which throws 4 or 5 of its states' osteopathic residencies under a bus?

/end that was a mouthful!
 
Wow.

Don't listen to AACOMAS and their "DOs are holistic" crap. All physicians are "holistic" and think about the entire patient.

DO school and MD school both teach you how to evaluate, diagnose, and treat diseases THE SAME WAY.

Don't assume that there is a difference in the way DOs and MDs are trained.

Thinking along this vein, why should DO's have to take the USMLE to obtain ACGME residencies?
 
Thinking along this vein, why should DO's have to take the USMLE to obtain ACGME residencies?

It is NOT required for DO's to have a USMLE score to apply or even obtain ACGME residencies.

SOME ACGME residency programs don't know how to interpret COMLEX scores therefore they prefer that their DO applicants have USMLE scores to submit.
 
It is NOT required for DO's to have a USMLE score to apply or even obtain ACGME residencies.

SOME ACGME residency programs don't know how to interpret COMLEX scores therefore they prefer that their DO applicants have USMLE scores to submit.


They don't know how to interpret the scores because they are lazy. Assuming you don't know much about the LSAT, how long do you think it would take you to gain proficiency in understanding a spread of scores?

Not long.
 
They don't know how to interpret the scores because they are lazy. Assuming you don't know much about the LSAT, how long do you think it would take you to gain proficiency in understanding a spread of scores?

Not long.

No. They don't know how to interpret it because the COMLEX is a test with high accuracy but low precision. Its created so that if you know your stuff you'll pass, but your final score, and (especially) where you perform most strongly can vary wildly. Thats right out of the mouth of the organization that makes the COMLEX. They want to identify the people who would make good doctors 100% of the time, regardless of how they studied for it. The fact that higher scores are viewed as better, to them, is somewhat of an mis-interpretation that they can neither support nor deny.

The USMLE is meant to be incredibly precise but with a bimodal accuracy. In which mean its created in such a way where if you are not prepared specifically for how it asks questions you'll fail. boo hoo. But if you are prepared the test should give you a very predictable and barely changing score result every single time.

What the schools don't get isnt a score translation, its the idea that they know if you take the USMLE over and over again your score wont be all that different so they can trust one sitting of it. The schools also know that the COMLEX scores have enough lacking precision that you never know if the student would really perform as well on repeat performance.

Generally speaking the places which accept COMLEX only are 1) very DO friendly or 2) have a weaker understanding of how the COMLEX works.

This obviously isnt true everywhere, but residency admission directors have said it to me enough times for me to think it might be a solid generalization: the places that dont accept the comlex tend to understand it the best, not the worst. It's a good test, but it doesn't tell them what they are looking for.
 
No. They don't know how to interpret it because the COMLEX is a test with high accuracy but low precision. Its created so that if you know your stuff you'll pass, but your final score, and (especially) where you perform most strongly can vary wildly. Thats right out of the mouth of the organization that makes the COMLEX. They want to identify the people who would make good doctors 100% of the time, regardless of how they studied for it. The fact that higher scores are viewed as better, to them, is somewhat of an mis-interpretation that they can neither support nor deny.

The USMLE is meant to be incredibly precise but with a bimodal accuracy. In which mean its created in such a way where if you are not prepared specifically for how it asks questions you'll fail. boo hoo. But if you are prepared the test should give you a very predictable and barely changing score result every single time.

What the schools don't get isnt a score translation, its the idea that they know if you take the USMLE over and over again your score wont be all that different so they can trust one sitting of it. The schools also know that the COMLEX scores have enough lacking precision that you never know if the student would really perform as well on repeat performance.

Generally speaking the places which accept COMLEX only are 1) very DO friendly or 2) have a weaker understanding of how the COMLEX works.

This obviously isnt true everywhere, but residency admission directors have said it to me enough times for me to think it might be a solid generalization: the places that dont accept the comlex tend to understand it the best, not the worst. It's a good test, but it doesn't tell them what they are looking for.

Then my previous point still applies. The schools that DO know how to interpret don't use it - ok, fine. The schools that DON'T know how to intepret it don't use it because they don't understand it (lazyness).

In essence are you telling me that the COMLEX doesn't test well enough for reliability and therefore should just bank on taking the USMLE as well?
 
Then my previous point still applies. The schools that DO know how to interpret don't use it - ok, fine. The schools that DON'T know how to intepret it don't use it because they don't understand it (lazyness).

In essence are you telling me that the COMLEX doesn't test well enough for reliability and therefore should just bank on taking the USMLE as well?

well i think it more or less means that the tests are different and some residencies don't know that or don't care. And some know it acutely and dont allow it because of it. But still, unless you want to go surgery, its probably not a terrible idea to just do COMLEX. It doesn't limit choices that much.

didn't mean to sound argumentative, if that was how it came off. I just was clarifying the general though among surgery and other fields that are less inclined to take the COMLEX.
 
No, that's not hypocrisy.

D.O students are allowed to match into allopathic residencies according to their USMLE scores.

Why should M.D students be allowed to match into osteopathic residencies without taking the D.O exam?

Students that have graduated from D.O school, taking both exams have learned what it takes to be a D.O, and what it takes to be an M.D. Therefore, both options are available.

Students who have graduated from M.D school have learned what it takes to work as an M.D. That's the material they learn, so an M.D residency is the option they have.

Again, the biology material is the same. But the APPROACH to treatment is from a different perspective, as explained by AACOMAS.

Interesting but I propose....

Premise 1: MDs and DOs are profession and legal equivalents, there is nothing an MD/DO can do that the other can't. With the exception of OMM, of which the usefulness is debated.

Premise 2: If MD and DOs are equal than the boards for each respective degree should be comparible or have negligable differences. *once again with the exception of OMM which has questionable uses*

Conclusion: A MD is not more or less qualified than any DO student to obtain an osteopathic residency and vice-versa. Therefore an MD should have just as much access to those residencies.

To be honest, I think the AMA should start pressuring the AOA along with osteopaths/osteopathic students.If you truely believe MD=DO you wouldn't allow them to have residencies which discriminate against MDs.

EDIT: btw, a lot of MD residencies will take the COMLEX, the reason some don't is because it's easier to compare two students who took the same exam - which for MDs is a the USMLE - comparing the COMLEX and USMLE while they cover very similar material is difficult, this is once again because the AOA choose to make the test as different as possible from the USMLE.

Furthermore, how does an MD treat a patient differently from a DO? I love this argument, it's not the 1900s anymore.
 
Great post - thanks for the information.
 
The wiki page for DOs should probably be cleaned up with this included. Right now there seems to be an over-emphasis on the equivalency of MD, which is important but it shouldn't downplay the additional manipulation training.
 
This seems like a great place to point out the fact that residencies in the military do not specify between a DO or an MD (As far as I know....) As far as the military residencies are concerned, a medical student must just graduate from an allopathic or osteopathic school and then can participate in a military residency. As far as that is concerned, is their residency an MD or a DO residency, or does the point just not matter? After military service, these doctors are allowed to practice medicine in all 50 states, correct?
 
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It seems like the AMA is listening to the AOA and making things equal, but allopathic students are still not allowed to match into osteopathic residencies. Check me if im wrong but it seems like hypocrisy.
AMA has retaliated by not accepting AOA accredited interns into any of their residency programs...thus making less and less DO's want to even apply to AOA residencies. They go round and round and no one ever wins.
 
This seems like a great place to point out the fact that residencies in the military do not specify between a DO or an MD (As far as I know....) As far as the military residencies are concerned, a medical student must just graduate from an allopathic or osteopathic school and then can participate in a military residency. As far as that is concerned, is their residency an MD or a DO residency, or does the point just not matter? After military service, these doctors are allowed to practice medicine in all 50 states, correct?
Correct. The military does not discriminate. However, there are few opportunities for military residents to practice Osteopathy. I would also think there are fewer resources for COMLEX Step 3. Unfortunately, it all comes down to politics and money. I worked with a doc that was on the AOA board for a long time. He was always fighting for change and equality, when the board's interests seemed to lie elsewhere. He finally got fed up and quit. Why political entities continue to dictate medicine just blows my mind? Where are the backbones of all these docs?
 
Interesting but I propose....

Premise 1: MDs and DOs are profession and legal equivalents, there is nothing an MD/DO can do that the other can't. With the exception of OMM, of which the usefulness is debated.

Not even OMM is a difference in reality. MD can take courses to learn OMM, only real difference is that DO's learn it in medical school where MD's do not.
 
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