AMA: Third-year DO student from LECOM, <499 MCAT, >240 Step 1

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

anon12380

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
54
Reaction score
23
Hey All,

I wanted to pay it forward -- as best as I could -- and answer any questions ya'll have about DO schools, the app process (it's been a few years, but I can give you my n=1 regardless), what DO school is like, clinical rotations, and the beast that is Step 1. I have another account on here which I use regularly, this was my throwaway initially. I remember benefiting tremendously from others on this thread, and so happy to help any way I can.

All my answers will be honest and authentic, although, I will say that I tend to be very professional in my language even on topics I feel strongly about (for or against!) -- ask away!

Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
What was your study schedule like? What resources did you use? What are some things you knew going into medical school and some things you would have changed/differently looking back at your first two years? Thank you for your time and energy and congratulations.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
How much research have you done during medical school?

What is your advice for step 1 prep?

Congrats!
 
What was your study schedule like? What resources did you use? What are some things you knew going into medical school and some things you would have changed/differently looking back at your first two years? Thank you for your time and energy and congratulations.

At our LECOM branch campus, there was no pure dedicated study period until the end of the spring semester of M2, where we had 2 weeks off. However, our PBL curriculum was also shortened both in terms of expected material to be tested, and actual time commitment. With that in mind, I started earnestly studying for Step 1 at the onset of M2. I dropped everything related to PBL, as far as readings were concerned. I utilized only board-prep resources, Pathoma, B&B, Sketchy, and synthesized all via the Lightyear B&B Anki deck. I did Rx towards the end of the fall semester, and I used my winter break to catch up on all my reviews on Anki I did not keep up with. Starting the spring, I still had the goal of completing Rx before beginning UW, but after putting in the dates in an Excel sheet and calculating how many Qs I'd need to do in order to get in 1.5 passes, I stopped Rx around late Feb, and begun UW. During this time, I was still making Anki the mainstay of my studying, in addition to the fact I was still learning a few systems on my first-pass, such as endocrinology. Then it was cruise control between March and early June. My NBMEs were subpar, nothing higher than a 220, and my UWSA 1 was a 239, but I still felt unprepared. I ended up delaying my Step 1 by 9 weeks into my third year clerkships. Best decision ever. I was able to run through my incorrects slowly, start doing another q-bank in AMBOSS, and felt a lot more calmer by the time I sat for my exam. I also believe I delayed feeling burnt out, because after I decided to delay my exam I took a 1 week break as I moved between states. Long story short, it was hard period, but to my surprise, a good chunk of Step 1 is relevant to clerkships outside of random genetics, biochem, and other expected minutiae. Biostats, pathophys, phys, and for me at least, pharm remains particularly relevant.

I thought I knew a lot going into med school, but probably within the first week, you realize how much you don't know, both in terms of sheer knowledge regarding medical basic sciences, but also how to develop and maintain a strong work ethic. Those are my general thoughts as I reflect on M1 particularly. Specifically, our first quiz was on Embryology, and the average score was in the low 70s. I still remember being pretty happy that I got an 88. Now, when it came to anatomy, I failed the first three quizzes, so it definitely was a steep learning curve for me. Things I would have done differently would have been to trust myself more and not rely on the advice of my upper-termers as much as I did. Don't get me wrong, as a M1 all advice is welcomed since you literally know nothing, but there is such a thing as bad advice which I got plenty of, and it more revolved around how to approach medicine and less on specific study methods. For instance, a M2 had told me to not stress about my grades and to not try to be the best and focus on yourself, which was okay advice, but he almost had a much more apathetic attitude which I later realized. In other words, I latched onto that attitude as I was struggling whereas I should have maintained my previous attitude that if I wanted to be the best student or at least a top tier student in my class I would have to change my study habits and improve myself. Also, I knew about Zanki, UFAP, and all that beforehand via reddit, and I told myself to not dive into that until spring semester of M1. I probably could have begun that earlier, but it worked out since over that summer LY was released which I preferred 10x over. In the end, be prepared for hiccuprs along the way. It will happen more times than you want. The challenge is knowing to respond and leaning on your friends and good mentors as well!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Did you zanki daily?

Near the end of the summer of M1 I began Lightyear. That was my main study tool during M2. I continue to use Anki even as a M3. I'd say maybe 1/3 of my class was using Anki at the beginning of M2, but probably only half of those were using it correctly (i.e. keeping up with reviews, maximizing add-ons, etc.) Anki saved my ass big time.
 
How much research have you done during medical school?

What is your advice for step 1 prep?

Congrats!

I have my name on a few case reports prior to med school, nothing spectacular or really noteworthy. I'm the exception rather than the rule in that regard -- I doubt many students have any research related to the medical field outside of those who may have done some kind of summer internship. However, I was published during M1 from a systematic review I did in college for which I was a first-author on regarding cognition and physical activity -- knowing the skills to write a systematic review and meta-analysis has been helpful in marketing myself to attendings and researchers as someone who can help with their scholarly work (about to start on something soon with some folks as well fingers crossed).

Advice for Step 1 -- I replied to another about my process. Really, for me, though it is UFAP with a major dose of Anki. I'm surprised to say that probably 85% of Step 1 knowledge can be sourced through UFAP. The difficulty of the exam is the breadth, not as much as the actual science/pathology.
 
How are the MCAT and Step 1 different? From my understanding MCAT is more critical thinking whereas Step 1 is more memorization?
 
Could you please list the material you used to study for Step 1? I've heard of First-Aid, but I'm not really sure what else there is. What are popular materials, similar to Kaplan and Princeton Review for the MCAT?

What is good in terms of review books, and then what is good in terms of questions? I did see you swear by Anki for questions.

Thank you for doing this.
 
Read again. He did say Pathoma, B&B, Sketchy, lightyear anki deck, AMBOSS, USMLE Rx. Also, FYI for boarb prep people usually go with UFAPS (Uworld, First Aid, Pathoma, Sketchy) + B&B + Zanki.
Could you please list the material you used to study for Step 1? I've heard of First-Aid, but I'm not really sure what else there is. What are popular materials, similar to Kaplan and Princeton Review for the MCAT?

What is good in terms of review books, and then what is good in terms of questions? I did see you swear by Anki for questions.

Thank you for doing this.
At our LECOM branch campus, there was no pure dedicated study period until the end of the spring semester of M2, where we had 2 weeks off. However, our PBL curriculum was also shortened both in terms of expected material to be tested, and actual time commitment. With that in mind, I started earnestly studying for Step 1 at the onset of M2. I dropped everything related to PBL, as far as readings were concerned. I utilized only board-prep resources, Pathoma, B&B, Sketchy, and synthesized all via the Lightyear B&B Anki deck. I did Rx towards the end of the fall semester, and I used my winter break to catch up on all my reviews on Anki I did not keep up with. Starting the spring, I still had the goal of completing Rx before beginning UW, but after putting in the dates in an Excel sheet and calculating how many Qs I'd need to do in order to get in 1.5 passes, I stopped Rx around late Feb, and begun UW. During this time, I was still making Anki the mainstay of my studying, in addition to the fact I was still learning a few systems on my first-pass, such as endocrinology. Then it was cruise control between March and early June. My NBMEs were subpar, nothing higher than a 220, and my UWSA 1 was a 239, but I still felt unprepared. I ended up delaying my Step 1 by 9 weeks into my third year clerkships. Best decision ever. I was able to run through my incorrects slowly, start doing another q-bank in AMBOSS, and felt a lot more calmer by the time I sat for my exam. I also believe I delayed feeling burnt out, because after I decided to delay my exam I took a 1 week break as I moved between states. Long story short, it was hard period, but to my surprise, a good chunk of Step 1 is relevant to clerkships outside of random genetics, biochem, and other expected minutiae. Biostats, pathophys, phys, and for me at least, pharm remains particularly relevant.

I thought I knew a lot going into med school, but probably within the first week, you realize how much you don't know, both in terms of sheer knowledge regarding medical basic sciences, but also how to develop and maintain a strong work ethic. Those are my general thoughts as I reflect on M1 particularly. Specifically, our first quiz was on Embryology, and the average score was in the low 70s. I still remember being pretty happy that I got an 88. Now, when it came to anatomy, I failed the first three quizzes, so it definitely was a steep learning curve for me. Things I would have done differently would have been to trust myself more and not rely on the advice of my upper-termers as much as I did. Don't get me wrong, as a M1 all advice is welcomed since you literally know nothing, but there is such a thing as bad advice which I got plenty of, and it more revolved around how to approach medicine and less on specific study methods. For instance, a M2 had told me to not stress about my grades and to not try to be the best and focus on yourself, which was okay advice, but he almost had a much more apathetic attitude which I later realized. In other words, I latched onto that attitude as I was struggling whereas I should have maintained my previous attitude that if I wanted to be the best student or at least a top tier student in my class I would have to change my study habits and improve myself. Also, I knew about Zanki, UFAP, and all that beforehand via reddit, and I told myself to not dive into that until spring semester of M1. I probably could have begun that earlier, but it worked out since over that summer LY was released which I preferred 10x over. In the end, be prepared for hiccuprs along the way. It will happen more times than you want. The challenge is knowing to respond and leaning on your friends and good mentors as well!

Sent from my SM-G973U using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
How are the MCAT and Step 1 different? From my understanding MCAT is more critical thinking whereas Step 1 is more memorization?

It's all critical thinking, but I know what you mean! From my vantage point, MCAT felt more critical in that it tested aptitude in novel and broad ways, eg. CARS mixed with Physics mixed with Biology, but also had lots of research/data-oriented questions. Also, to be blunt, lots of it felt abstract or dense. Step 1 I think has an ocean of knowledge to learn that as both vast and intimidating, partially because you have basically 1.5 years to learn it all whereas in college you could spend 3-4 years learning the necessary pre-reqs. Step 1 also felt much more detailed oriented with a fair bit of minutiae. But, they are totally different exams -- I think there is some evidence out there to show a low correlation, but outside of that, literally nothing else on the MCAT would help or prepare you for Step 1 outside of maybe knowing cell biology, but again, it is clinical cell bio and you need to know the associated diseases or perhaps chemo checkpoint inhibitors.
 
Could you please list the material you used to study for Step 1? I've heard of First-Aid, but I'm not really sure what else there is. What are popular materials, similar to Kaplan and Princeton Review for the MCAT?

What is good in terms of review books, and then what is good in terms of questions? I did see you swear by Anki for questions.

Thank you for doing this.

Answered in a previous reply. But Princeton Review is non-existent for Step 1. Kaplan does have resources, it seems to be popular among international foreign medical students, but even Kaplan is viewed as second or third tier. Questions are hugely important, I likely went overkill by doing Rx, UWorld, AMBOSS, and I did a bunch of practice exams (~1000 questions alone when taken altogether), and did another 1k or so questions from our school's COMLEX question bank resource.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Thoughts on doing pepper + lolnotacop + zanki pharm anki... BUT limiting anki for other stuff like the path, biochem, etc. and doing more Rx Q's with B&B + FA annotating for that content review instead

Basically is it cool to anki hella for micro + pharm but for other stuff just do it regular way with pathoma, BnB vids, FA, etc.

Thanks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
Thoughts on doing pepper + lolnotacop + zanki pharm anki... BUT limiting anki for other stuff like the path, biochem, etc. and doing more Rx Q's with B&B + FA annotating for that content review instead

Basically is it cool to anki hella for micro + pharm but for other stuff just do it regular way with pathoma, BnB vids, FA, etc.

Thanks.
Could see that maybe working as well for physiology, but you definitely need to keep hitting path hard. I’ve found that the majority of people can’t stand Zanki biochem. However, my friends and I who did it and kept up with it murdered it in uworld and on boards.

I talk about it more here if you’re curious:

The last 6 months of keeping up with Zanki are rough.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Could see that maybe working as well for physiology, but you definitely need to keep hitting path hard. I’ve found that the majority of people can’t stand Zanki biochem. However, my friends and I who did it and kept up with it murdered it in uworld and on boards.

I talk about it more here if you’re curious:

The last 6 months of keeping up with Zanki are rough.
Yeah biochem is something I could see myself doing. I'll just open up the subdeck at when I finish watching the BnB vids (metabolism, molecular, genetics, vitamins, cellular), and hit that. I've been starting the subdecks for pathoma chapters too, well for the first 3 at least since I heard they were very high yeild and give me a harder time remembering the outright pathologies of specific diseases in other chapters.

Thanks for the biochem tip. I just hope I can continue going hard on anki. I finished the Pepper and pharm decks so I knw my Sketchy real well. Now I've started Lol and Zanki pharm deck and they're pretty big. So to have these decks to do + zanki biochem + etc. I just see it being very hard. Esp since I'm trying to keep up with 10 Rx questions a day + still perform in class.

Appreciate the feedback from you guys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Hey All,

I wanted to pay it forward -- as best as I could -- and answer any questions ya'll have about DO schools, the app process (it's been a few years, but I can give you my n=1 regardless), what DO school is like, clinical rotations, and the beast that is Step 1. I have another account on here which I use regularly, this was my throwaway initially. I remember benefiting tremendously from others on this thread, and so happy to help any way I can.

All my answers will be honest and authentic, although, I will say that I tend to be very professional in my language even on topics I feel strongly about (for or against!) -- ask away!


P.S. Feel free to follow me on Twitter if you want to!

Thank you for doing this! If you don't mind could you write out your daily study schedule? I'm a first year still trying to figure out how to fine tune it and make it perfect and still be able to enjoy life beyond medical school. Also, if you don't mind sharing did you end up with a decent pre-clinical GPA? Is it true that GPA doesn't really matter? If it doesn't what is the GPA to still aim for?
 
What was your approach to pbl? Did you watch vids first then read the textbook chapters...just read the entire chapter...etc
 
Thank you for doing this! If you don't mind could you write out your daily study schedule? I'm a first year still trying to figure out how to fine tune it and make it perfect and still be able to enjoy life beyond medical school. Also, if you don't mind sharing did you end up with a decent pre-clinical GPA? Is it true that GPA doesn't really matter? If it doesn't what is the GPA to still aim for?

At a PBL school, your schedule is a lot different from most lecture-based programs. For instance, 3x a week you come to campus and participate in a 2 hour PBL case that is presented as if you were reading the case from start to finish. It's pretty straightforward. After those 2 hours are up, you are done for the day unless you have some other class, like H&P or some other class but often times my school would have those on separate days. With that being said, I had a lot of free time, but of course that free time was spent studying. Even Friday nights I would be studying.

If I recall, my pre-clinical GPA ended up probably around a ~2..89 or something. LECOM is notorious for grade deflation, and really even one C can sink your GPA. That being said, no one really cares about it -- it is so remarkably insignificant as far as a factor considered by residencies (on the published surveys its ranked very low as something residencies factor). Now, failing a course may be a bit of a red flag, but outside of that not much else is worth worrying about. In hindsight, I am glad that I chose to study more for boards at the expense of doing not-so-well in my other courses, like OMM. Ideally, do well in everything -- but that was not the case for me! If you have to aim for a GPA, I guess anything above a 3.0, but remember that Step 1 is king. I guarantee you no one will bat an eye at someone with a terrible GPA who has a stellar Step 1 score.
 
What was your approach to pbl? Did you watch vids first then read the textbook chapters...just read the entire chapter...etc

During M1, I'd read the textbooks for the given case. As the year went on, and I felt more comfortable trying or testing different study approaches. For instance, during the fall semester I was really anxious about just passing, and if I recall, I ended up getting a 79.6% or something really close where I got a B. In the spring semester, I branched out and I decided to watch a lot more B&B videos and use that as my mainstay. Ended up doing really well that semester something like a 87%. My point is that it is okay to take it slow if you need to, but I will say using B&B during M1 was a great decision -- I really wish I had had the confidence to utilize it earlier. The other thing is that students think if you study from no-textbook resources, than you will be blindsided by questions on the exam that originate from textbooks, but I felt that most questions could still be sourced from the board prep sources. Ya know, there are only so many ways to compare and contrast Crohn's and UC -- that's how I felt okay relying less and less on textbooks as I progressed, and by M2 I stopped reading textbooks altogether.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
When did you hear back from them regarding interviews?

I sent out my app the first available day of my cycle, and got two interviews, one from Burrell and the other from LECOM very early on to my surprise. I had my LECOM interview first, and in fact received my BCOM invite at the airport leaving Greensburg.
 
how did you feel about AMBOSS i have havent seen much about use for step 1 on it and can you talk about their questions/questions bank if they have one. I saw the ad for it and it looks great but would like to hear your thoughts
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
how did you feel about AMBOSS i have havent seen much about use for step 1 on it and can you talk about their questions/questions bank if they have one. I saw the ad for it and it looks great but would like to hear your thoughts

I'm a big fan of their question bank. One of the main reasons why I like AMBOSS is that I think their user interface is probably the best out there especially better than you UWorld and I say that both in terms of how they breakdown questions but also the learning cards and the AMBOSS library. So it’s true that the AMBOSS question bank has a higher degree of harder and possibly more esoteric/difficult questions that you may not think would show up on Step 1, but I was OK with that because I felt that even those really hard questions really test your knowledge and honestly that only made up like 10 or 15% of the total questions. Finally as far as how I used AMBOSS, I did so after I had completed my first pass of your UWorld and I decided to begin the AMBOSS question bank and I ended up doing about 96% of those questions before I had to finish my incorrects on UWorld and I finished them a few days before taking Step 1. But mind you I also had initially decided to delay my exam by about eight weeks so I had a lot of more time to take with AMBOSS during my first few rotations. Something I’ve recommended to the current second-year medical student is to use AMBOSS before UWorld, but if that is not possible then at the very just do some of there questions. There’s no one perfect way though, so everyone is different!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
For all THE MED STUDENTS ON SDN.... You need to consider what I'm about to say. ...With a 2.98 GPA, what would your class rank be? Studies of PDs and what they focus on indicate class rank is an important factor in resident selection. When I sat on a resident selection comittee, I would consider a high board score with a class rank in the bottom 50% something of concern and would discuss it at the interview. Is the applicant bright and lazy? A bad combination for a resident. There is lots of work to do and hard workers are preferred. Was there another explanation for the low gpa? That might change my mind. Board scores aren't everything. Dont fall into the trap that all you need is a good score. For sure, it will get you noticed, and maybe an interview , but PDs dont want to hire problems and lazy residents are problems. They are looking for the total package
Bright, hard worker, good judgement. Studying for boards at the expense of classwork is poor judgement. Pre clinical grades are supposed to be the best predictor of board scores. Might be tough to explain.
 
Last edited:
I'm a third year at an original DO school feel free to ask me questions as well. In terms of average GPA, our median (50th percentile) was 3.55. I think bottom quartile was something like 3.25. So by all means do NOT blow off class work
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
For all THE MED STUDENTS ON SDN.... You need to consider what I'm about to say. ...With a 2.98 GPA, what would your class rank be? Studies of PDs and what they focus on indicate class rank is an important factor in resident selection. When I sat on a resident selection comittee, I would consider a high board score which a class rank in the bottom 50% something of concern and would discuss it at the interview. Is the applicant bright and lazy? A bad combination for a resident. There is lots of work to do and hard workers are preferred. Was there another explanation for the low gpa? That might change my mind. Board scores aren't everything. Dont fall into the trap that all you need is a good score. For sure, it will get you noticed, and maybe an interview , but PDs dont want to hire problems and lazy residents are problems. They are looking for the total package
Bright, hard worker, good judgement. Studying for boards at the expense of classwork is poor judgement. Pre clinical grades are supposed to be the best predictor of board scores. Might be tough to explain.

I'd rather be 65/100 with a 240 than 8/100 with a 220. PD's flat out don't really care about rank, I've been told this to my face by 2 in an elite specialty. "There is simply too much variability between schools for it to matter to me." - Direct quote.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I'd rather be 65/100 with a 240 than 8/100 with a 220. PD's flat out don't really care about rank, I've been told this to my face by 2 in an elite specialty. "There is simply too much variability between schools for it to matter to me." - Direct quote.
65 out of 100 is well into the top 50 %. In fact, nearly the upper third. Would you feel the same if you were in the 45 % and had a 240, as I suspect the OP actually is? Certainly programs will vary on how they weigh class rank. I know you are familiar with the survey of program directors and how they view class rank. Maybe some PDs might not weigh it as high as others, but the survey indicates it is an important factor. I think it shows poor judgement to study for boards at the expense of class rank. A few anecdotal reports dont invalidate the survey IMO
 
65 out of 100 is well into the top 50 %. In fact, nearly the upper third. Would you feel the same if you were in the 45 % and had a 240, as I suspect the OP actually is? Certainly programs will vary on how they weigh class rank. I know you are familiar with the survey of program directors and how they view class rank. Maybe some PDs might not weigh it as high as others, but the survey indicates it is an important factor. I think it shows poor judgement to study for boards at the expense of class rank. A few anecdotal reports dont invalidate the survey IMO

1. 65/100 is 35%ile.
2. It’s only anecdote because no one has directly compared the matches of people in the lower 50% with 240s and people in the top 10 with 220s.The difference would be drastic. To say otherwise shows the usual faculty ignorance of the state of matching today.

I notice in threads like this people always assume that when people “study for boards at the expense of rank” means they are literally going from A’s to getting C’s..... no one does that.

The difference between the 65%ile and 35%ile at my school is literally a handful of percentage points. I’ve seen the data.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
65 out of 100 is well into the top 50 %. In fact, nearly the upper third. Would you feel the same if you were in the 45 % and had a 240, as I suspect the OP actually is? Certainly programs will vary on how they weigh class rank. I know you are familiar with the survey of program directors and how they view class rank. Maybe some PDs might not weigh it as high as others, but the survey indicates it is an important factor. I think it shows poor judgement to study for boards at the expense of class rank. A few anecdotal reports dont invalidate the survey IMO

I think he meant 65th place out of 100 students.
 
I dont mean to snipe, but but the 35% tile means 65 % of your classmates did better than you. 65 out of 100 puts you in the top third of your class., aka the 65 percentile. Only 35 percent of your classmates did better than you. There is a difference between percent and percentile. If you want to base your opinion on 2 anecdotal cases that disagree with the data in the PD survey, fine. Pre clinical grades are supposed to be the best predictors of board scores, no? If this is evidence of faculty of ignorance, where is your evidence that class rank is unimportant? The data may not exist at this point, but to suggest class rank is unimportant and only board scores are is irresponsible and is in disagreement with existing data.
 
I dont mean to snipe, but but the 35% tile means 65 % of your classmates did better than you. 65 out of 100 puts you in the top third of your class., aka the 65 percentile. Only 35 percent of your classmates did better than you. There is a difference between percent and percentile. If you want to base your opinion on 2 anecdotal cases that disagree with the data in the PD survey, fine. Pre clinical grades are supposed to be the best predictors of board scores, no? If this is evidence of faculty of ignorance, where is your evidence that class rank is unimportant? The data may not exist at this point, but to suggest class rank is unimportant and only board scores are is irresponsible and is in disagreement with existing data.
Everything is important, but I think we can all agree if ur board score is crap, PDs aren't going to care about ur class rank. Plus I rather not put that much time into learning pointless OMM or the other bs classes that aren't the hard sciences. Also, you'd be surprised how many people cheat
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Everything is important, but I think we can all agree if ur board score is crap, PDs aren't going to care about ur class rank. Plus I rather not put that much time into learning pointless OMM or the other bs classes that aren't the hard sciences. Also, you'd be surprised how many people cheat
You are correct, a low board will probably get your app screened as I mentioned in my post..
 
I dont mean to snipe, but but the 35% tile means 65 % of your classmates did better than you. 65 out of 100 puts you in the top third of your class., aka the 65 percentile. Only 35 percent of your classmates did better than you. There is a difference between percent and percentile. If you want to base your opinion on 2 anecdotal cases that disagree with the data in the PD survey, fine. Pre clinical grades are supposed to be the best predictors of board scores, no? If this is evidence of faculty of ignorance, where is your evidence that class rank is unimportant? The data may not exist at this point, but to suggest class rank is unimportant and only board scores are is irresponsible and is in disagreement with existing data.

It’s fine. You can keep spouting this stuff if you want, while the students that match well will continue to focus on what’s important: board scores. No one gets screened out by a computer for their rank. This is how people with good ranks get crap board scores, and people with ranks in the middle of their class match ortho. Every single year this happens.

Did you not read what I wrote? The difference between those percentiles is often a handful of percentage points. I have literally seen the data. The difference between people with similar ranks (i.e 10 spots or so) is quite literally DECIMAL places.

You are also completely ignoring the fact that we aren’t talking about bottom dweller students, were talking about people in the middle 1/3rd of their class.

If someone can get a high board score and a high rank that’s best for sure, won’t argue that. But if your school doesn’t cover a lot of what’s on boards? Then yes take the board score over 240 every day of the week over focusing on keeping that rank up.

He probably did, but he could have said that.

I did. 65/100 literally means 65th out of 100 students. I started using percentiles when it’s clear that’s what you were using, at which point I made that clear.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Hey All,

I wanted to pay it forward -- as best as I could -- and answer any questions ya'll have about DO schools, the app process (it's been a few years, but I can give you my n=1 regardless), what DO school is like, clinical rotations, and the beast that is Step 1. I have another account on here which I use regularly, this was my throwaway initially. I remember benefiting tremendously from others on this thread, and so happy to help any way I can.

All my answers will be honest and authentic, although, I will say that I tend to be very professional in my language even on topics I feel strongly about (for or against!) -- ask away!


P.S. Feel free to follow me on Twitter if you want to!

After some light stalking on your twitter, I noticed you are from Florida but decided to go to Erie. Did you choose that campus over the Bradenton one? If so why?

Thanks in advance!
 
After some light stalking on your twitter, I noticed you are from Florida but decided to go to Erie. Did you choose that campus over the Bradenton one? If so why?

Thanks in advance!

I just didn't get a secondary from Bradenton. Application to Bradenton and Erie are separate, and if I recall, Bradenton has a higher screen for applicants. Luck of the draw (or the lack thereof). Each campus has its positives and negatives, and I went to the branch campus in Seton Hill (Greensburg, PA). It's the cheapest of the three, which appealed to me, low cost of living, better weather than Erie, and basically a lot more chill vibe than Erie and Bradenton (from what I have heard).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I just didn't get a secondary from Bradenton. Application to Bradenton and Erie are separate, and if I recall, Bradenton has a higher screen for applicants. Luck of the draw (or the lack thereof). Each campus has its positives and negatives, and I went to the branch campus in Seton Hill (Greensburg, PA). It's the cheapest of the three, which appealed to me, low cost of living, better weather than Erie, and basically a lot more chill vibe than Erie and Bradenton (from what I have heard).

Thank you. I ask because I am trying to make the determination between both campuses and I have read throughout SDN that Erie has more organized and less troublesome rotations. However, as a Floridian with family an hour away I am leaning towards Bradenton.
 
For all THE MED STUDENTS ON SDN.... You need to consider what I'm about to say. ...With a 2.98 GPA, what would your class rank be? Studies of PDs and what they focus on indicate class rank is an important factor in resident selection. When I sat on a resident selection comittee, I would consider a high board score with a class rank in the bottom 50% something of concern and would discuss it at the interview. Is the applicant bright and lazy? A bad combination for a resident. There is lots of work to do and hard workers are preferred. Was there another explanation for the low gpa? That might change my mind. Board scores aren't everything. Dont fall into the trap that all you need is a good score. For sure, it will get you noticed, and maybe an interview , but PDs dont want to hire problems and lazy residents are problems. They are looking for the total package
Bright, hard worker, good judgement. Studying for boards at the expense of classwork is poor judgement. Pre clinical grades are supposed to be the best predictor of board scores. Might be tough to explain.

I mean, other than failing a class, I have been told class rank generally is not a big factor. Of course there is variation in how different programs and different specialties consider class rank so I won't dispute how your program ranks. I will say that I think viewing class rank by quartiles is a safe bet in viewing yourself, i.e. being top 25% versus bottom 25%. I mean, I spent less time studying OMM during my second year and I think my apathy for that material gave way to a higher Step 1 score as I focused on other subjects, eg. Biochemistry, Endocrinology.

Edit: My class rank at the end of M2 was something like 35%ile. Again, I suck at OMM, everything else was average-to-above average. Now considering clerkship grades, and then I begin to realize why Step 1/2 must be relied on even more so -- it is one of the remaining, true objective measures.

Edit 2: Basically everything @AnatomyGrey12 said is money. Our Clin Ed hammers those points as well. Wanna get an A in Human Sexuality course at the expense of studying Biochemistry via Boards & Beyond since your curriculum did not emphasize it (like mine), then go for it. Don't be surprised to get hurt on practice Qs, practice exams, and even perhaps Step 1. And I literally had classmates put so much effort into these extraneous courses, and that's why only like something 30 students in my class of 105 students took Step 1. There's a chance that of the 35 or so students ahead of me in class rank, maybe like 5 of them did not take Step 1. Good luck trying to get a PDs attention with just COMLEX and a great class percentile!

Edit: Typo about class rank -- meant to say 65th percentile.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
It’s fine. You can keep spouting this stuff if you want, while the students that match well will continue to focus on what’s important: board scores. No one gets screened out by a computer for their rank. This is how people with good ranks get crap board scores, and people with ranks in the middle of their class match ortho. Every single year this happens.

Did you not read what I wrote? The difference between those percentiles is often a handful of percentage points. I have literally seen the data. The difference between people with similar ranks (i.e 10 spots or so) is quite literally DECIMAL places.

You are also completely ignoring the fact that we aren’t talking about bottom dweller students, were talking about people in the middle 1/3rd of their class.

If someone can get a high board score and a high rank that’s best for sure, won’t argue that. But if your school doesn’t cover a lot of what’s on boards? Then yes take the board score over 240 every day of the week over focusing on keeping that rank up.



I did. 65/100 literally means 65th out of 100 students. I started using percentiles when it’s clear that’s what you were using, at which point I made that clear.
I mean, other than failing a class, I have been told class rank generally is not a big factor. Of course there is variation in how different programs and different specialties consider class rank so I won't dispute how your program ranks. I will say that I think viewing class rank by quartiles is a safe bet in viewing yourself, i.e. being top 25% versus bottom 25%. I mean, I spent less time studying OMM during my second year and I think my apathy for that material gave way to a higher Step 1 score as I focused on other subjects, eg. Biochemistry, Endocrinology.

Edit: My class rank at the end of M2 was something like 35%ile. Again, I suck at OMM, everything else was average-to-above average. Now considering clerkship grades, and then I begin to realize why Step 1/2 must be relied on even more so -- it is one of the remaining, true objective measures.

Edit 2: Basically everything @AnatomyGrey12 is money. Our Clin Ed hammers those points as well. Wanna get an A in Human Sexuality course at the expense of studying Biochemistry via Boards & Beyond since your curriculum did not emphasize it (like mine), then go for it. Don't be surprised to get hurt on practice Qs, practice exams, and even perhaps Step 1. And I literally had classmates put so much effort into these extraneous courses, and that's why only like something 30 students in my class of 105 students took Step 1. There's a chance that of the 35 or so students ahead of me in class rank, maybe like 5 of them did not take Step 1. Good luck trying to get a PDs attention with just COMLEX and a great class percentile!
It might require some explaining why you have a 240 step 1 and are in the bottom third of your class and yet scored in the top third on step 1. Some people will match with stats like that and some people will wonder why they didnt. I never said boards aren't the most important factor. PDs look at the whole app and the applicant. Will they be a good fit? I said when i have interviewed candidates with stats that dont correlate, bottom third of class and upper third on boards, I ask for an explanation. Is it a reflection of poor judgement?, bright and lazy,?, family crisis?A 240 is a good score, roughly around 60 th percentile. That means a third of all applicants have that score or higher. So lots of students with 240 and in upper third class rank. Ignore the PD survey at your own risk. PDs are notorious for giving misleading information. SDN and my own experience with students is replete with stories of PDs giving misleading information. Ex., You tell PD that their program is your first choice. PD says " You just made my day". Then you dont match there. I have heard this story many times. Bottom line, do your best on boards to avoid being screened. Put the best app together that you can. Audition at your top choices with a backup. Shining on rotation will help aleviate any concern. PDs would rather take a known entity rather than an unknown, all things being equal. Good luck and best wishes. I hope it all works out.
 
It might require some explaining why you have a 240 step 1 and are in the bottom third of your class and yet scored in the top third on step 1. Some people will match with stats like that and some people will wonder why they didnt. I never said boards aren't the most important factor. PDs look at the whole app and the applicant. Will they be a good fit? I said when i have interviewed candidates with stats that dont correlate, bottom third of class and upper third on boards, I ask for an explanation. Is it a reflection of poor judgement?, bright and lazy,?, family crisis?A 240 is a good score, roughly around 60 th percentile. That means a third of all applicants have that score or higher. So lots of students with 240 and in upper third class rank. Ignore the PD survey at your own risk. PDs are notorious for giving misleading information. SDN and my own experience with students is replete with stories of PDs giving misleading information. Ex., You tell PD that their program is your first choice. PD says " You just made my day". Then you dont match there. I have heard this story many times. Bottom line, do your best on boards to avoid being screened. Put the best app together that you can. Audition at your top choices with a backup. Shining on rotation will help aleviate any concern. PDs would rather take a known entity rather than an unknown, all things being equal. Good luck and best wishes. I hope it all works out.

Woops, corrected that myself -- meant to write down 65th percentile, not 35th percentile.

Edit: I mostly agree with what you are trying to say, but I have heard the same kind of perspective by many doctors, and unfortunately, I think there is not enough understanding of how much Step 1 preparation, at least for DOs, relies on the student taking the lead and making decisions that may not jive with the curriculum (i.e. not do as well as you could in your courses at the expense of better prep for Step 1). But, we can agree to disagree!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
It might require some explaining why you have a 240 step 1 and are in the bottom third of your class and yet scored in the top third on step 1. Some people will match with stats like that and some people will wonder why they didnt. I never said boards aren't the most important factor. PDs look at the whole app and the applicant. Will they be a good fit? I said when i have interviewed candidates with stats that dont correlate, bottom third of class and upper third on boards, I ask for an explanation. Is it a reflection of poor judgement?, bright and lazy,?, family crisis?A 240 is a good score, roughly around 60 th percentile. That means a third of all applicants have that score or higher. So lots of students with 240 and in upper third class rank. Ignore the PD survey at your own risk. PDs are notorious for giving misleading information. SDN and my own experience with students is replete with stories of PDs giving misleading information. Ex., You tell PD that their program is your first choice. PD says " You just made my day". Then you dont match there. I have heard this story many times. Bottom line, do your best on boards to avoid being screened. Put the best app together that you can. Audition at your top choices with a backup. Shining on rotation will help aleviate any concern. PDs would rather take a known entity rather than an unknown, all things being equal. Good luck and best wishes. I hope it all works out.
As a reference, the program director survey says 70% of PDs consider it as factor to decide who gets an interview with an average rating of 3.9/5, and 59% of PDs use it for ranking of interviewees with an average rating of 4.0/5. Many other factors have higher average rating than class ranking.

All the PDs I have talked to in the past tell me they only look at the ranking to make sure you're not at the bottom quartile in your class. Other than that they don't care because of too many variation from school to school, plus the fact that many schools are P/F now with no class ranking sometimes making it difficult to rely on it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
As a reference, the program director survey says 70% of PDs consider it as factor to decide who gets an interview with an average rating of 3.9/5, and 59% of PDs use it for ranking of interviewees with an average rating of 4.0/5. Many other factors have higher average rating than class ranking.

All the PDs I have talked to in the past tell me they only look at the ranking to make sure you're not at the bottom quartile in your class. Other than that they don't care because of too many variation from school to school, plus the fact that many schools are P/F now with no class ranking sometimes making it difficult to rely on it.
Well, looks like we are all basically saying the same thing. A significant majority of PDs say class rank is important in their decision making as you point out. It is not helpful to be in the bottom quartile or third. Letting your class rank fall to those levels at the expense of board prep can have consequences. This is in general terms what I have been saying all along. Good luck and best wishes!
 
During M1, I'd read the textbooks for the given case. As the year went on, and I felt more comfortable trying or testing different study approaches. For instance, during the fall semester I was really anxious about just passing, and if I recall, I ended up getting a 79.6% or something really close where I got a B. In the spring semester, I branched out and I decided to watch a lot more B&B videos and use that as my mainstay. Ended up doing really well that semester something like a 87%. My point is that it is okay to take it slow if you need to, but I will say using B&B during M1 was a great decision -- I really wish I had had the confidence to utilize it earlier. The other thing is that students think if you study from no-textbook resources, than you will be blindsided by questions on the exam that originate from textbooks, but I felt that most questions could still be sourced from the board prep sources. Ya know, there are only so many ways to compare and contrast Crohn's and UC -- that's how I felt okay relying less and less on textbooks as I progressed, and by M2 I stopped reading textbooks altogether.
I was wondering if you could expand on this since I’m actually at an 100% pbl school as well. So say you’re starting a new semester and just finished a case, how do you go about learning the chapters your group decided on just by vids/review books& anki? Can you give like a step by step breakdown of your typically study routine to learn the assigned chapters? Im tryin to adopt something similar but not all the boards n beyond vids cover the chapters I assign or I can’t find enough anki cards to suspend from like zanki that correlates with the material in the chapter & I basically get anxiety thinking I’m going to miss potential questions on the exam if I just use those & there’s definitely a good amount of low yield stuff in the text, that I could never see as a test question but 2nd years are always like anything is fair games in the chapters, so it kinda messes with my head
 
Last edited:
I was wondering if you could expand on this since I’m actually at an 100% pbl school as well. So say you’re starting a new semester and just finished a case, how do you go about learning the chapters your group decided on just by vids/review books& anki? Can you give like a step by step breakdown of your typically study routine to learn the assigned chapters? Im tryin to adopt something similar but not all the boards n beyond vids cover the chapters I assign or I can’t find enough anki cards to suspend from like zanki that correlates with the material in the chapter & I basically get anxiety thinking I’m going to miss potential questions on the exam if I just use those & there’s definitely a good amount of low yield stuff in the text, that I could never see as a test question but 2nd years are always like anything is fair games in the chapters, so it kinda messes with my head

As a M1, I think it is fair to maybe relax on trying to jump into the whole boards prep game. When I was a M1, it felt premature since my mentality was I need to first learn how to learn. So for the first semester, I did not use any board prep materials at all. Not FA, Pathoma, B&B, nothing. When I started the spring semester, I told myself, Well, now that I know how to study, let me see where I can experiment, and by that I mean where I can incorporate boards prep. So, another thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot of stuff in first year that may not be terribly relevant for Step 1 -- Step 1 has tons of pathology which you should get your second year, so not finding a B&B correlate is not unusual.

But, to give you specific breakdown, I'll tell you what happened during my second year: my PBL group would agree on all the readings ahead of time, before the cases even were known (we had a vague indication). I opened First Aid and Pathoma, and we reverse engineered it -- we made sure to pick readings and chapters from textbooks that were in FA. If a chapter, in say, the physiology book was 20 pgs, but only 5 pgs covered something in FA, then that would not necessarily be our priority. I was okay with studying some material on my own via B&B, Pathoma, and Sketchy. In fact, I learned Biochemistry and Endocrinology basically all through B&B. I didn't need to see everything in PBL. So, when you say not all of B&B covers chapters I assigned or get assigned, it should be the opposite -- assign chapters that are in those resources. Now again, you are a first year I presume and I had the exact same sentiment about missing out on questions and doing poorly on an exam and possibly even failing. I probably glossed over this in my initial post, but after I took the last exam of my first semester, I genuinely was unsure if I had passed the exam or not, and worried I had failed it and thus would have to remediate the first semester. I got a high B for the course (the course only has 3 exams in total, so they are stressful). Why am I saying all this? It is okay to focus on the chapters right now if you want to. Find as much of the correlates in Anki as you can, but not every thing needs to be in those premade decks (although everything in those decks, specifically Lightyear, are all highyield).

So, I suggest not worrying about finding supplemental videos for everything in your chapters at this point in time. Find them where you can, but if you get assigned a chapter on something not too relevant to boards, just take it in stride at this point. Next semester, you can start pushing off the low yield content -- as long as you are confident you can still get good marks on your exams! When I completely abandoned my school's curriculum during the fall semester of my M2 year, I ended up scored in the top 20% easily. The exams covered ore highyield material, but even the low yield material on there I was able to answer with some degree of confidence only because I know the highyield material so well (eg. if a question asked about a MOA of a drug, I could r/o 2/4 options since I knew what they were for, left with 2 options and I was okay with those odds). So at my peak of using Anki, it was as follows: go to a PBL session, talk about case, agree on reading objectives (while making sure they were in FA/other board prep resource), compromise a little if someone wanted a chapter or reading on something clearly not relevant (can't win all battles), go to the library, begin watching the B&B videos, unsuspend the cards in Lightyear, and rinse and repeat. Closer to exam date, I would do practice questions from some resource, like the Robbins textbook (in hindsight, I should have utilized Rx or another Q-bank). This was my method -- nothing groundbreaking perhaps -- for M2. M1, is different, give yourself a break if you need to still figure out where you are withing taking medical school exams. I did at least. I made up for my lag by starting my board prep in the summer following first year by watching all of Sketchy, starting the Lightyear deck (it was just released at that time), and coming up with a game plan for boards basically a year in advance. You'll be fine. Take it slow, and make sure you can pass and do well on your exams this semester.

Good Luck!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
As a M1, I think it is fair to maybe relax on trying to jump into the whole boards prep game. When I was a M1, it felt premature since my mentality was I need to first learn how to learn. So for the first semester, I did not use any board prep materials at all. Not FA, Pathoma, B&B, nothing. When I started the spring semester, I told myself, Well, now that I know how to study, let me see where I can experiment, and by that I mean where I can incorporate boards prep. So, another thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot of stuff in first year that may not be terribly relevant for Step 1 -- Step 1 has tons of pathology which you should get your second year, so not finding a B&B correlate is not unusual.

But, to give you specific breakdown, I'll tell you what happened during my second year: my PBL group would agree on all the readings ahead of time, before the cases even were known (we had a vague indication). I opened First Aid and Pathoma, and we reverse engineered it -- we made sure to pick readings and chapters from textbooks that were in FA. If a chapter, in say, the physiology book was 20 pgs, but only 5 pgs covered something in FA, then that would not necessarily be our priority. I was okay with studying some material on my own via B&B, Pathoma, and Sketchy. In fact, I learned Biochemistry and Endocrinology basically all through B&B. I didn't need to see everything in PBL. So, when you say not all of B&B covers chapters I assigned or get assigned, it should be the opposite -- assign chapters that are in those resources. Now again, you are a first year I presume and I had the exact same sentiment about missing out on questions and doing poorly on an exam and possibly even failing. I probably glossed over this in my initial post, but after I took the last exam of my first semester, I genuinely was unsure if I had passed the exam or not, and worried I had failed it and thus would have to remediate the first semester. I got a high B for the course (the course only has 3 exams in total, so they are stressful). Why am I saying all this? It is okay to focus on the chapters right now if you want to. Find as much of the correlates in Anki as you can, but not every thing needs to be in those premade decks (although everything in those decks, specifically Lightyear, are all highyield).

So, I suggest not worrying about finding supplemental videos for everything in your chapters at this point in time. Find them where you can, but if you get assigned a chapter on something not too relevant to boards, just take it in stride at this point. Next semester, you can start pushing off the low yield content -- as long as you are confident you can still get good marks on your exams! When I completely abandoned my school's curriculum during the fall semester of my M2 year, I ended up scored in the top 20% easily. The exams covered ore highyield material, but even the low yield material on there I was able to answer with some degree of confidence only because I know the highyield material so well (eg. if a question asked about a MOA of a drug, I could r/o 2/4 options since I knew what they were for, left with 2 options and I was okay with those odds). So at my peak of using Anki, it was as follows: go to a PBL session, talk about case, agree on reading objectives (while making sure they were in FA/other board prep resource), compromise a little if someone wanted a chapter or reading on something clearly not relevant (can't win all battles), go to the library, begin watching the B&B videos, unsuspend the cards in Lightyear, and rinse and repeat. Closer to exam date, I would do practice questions from some resource, like the Robbins textbook (in hindsight, I should have utilized Rx or another Q-bank). This was my method -- nothing groundbreaking perhaps -- for M2. M1, is different, give yourself a break if you need to still figure out where you are withing taking medical school exams. I did at least. I made up for my lag by starting my board prep in the summer following first year by watching all of Sketchy, starting the Lightyear deck (it was just released at that time), and coming up with a game plan for boards basically a year in advance. You'll be fine. Take it slow, and make sure you can pass and do well on your exams this semester.

Good Luck!
That was very helpful, thanks! Def going to implement your advice
 
you've got any tips for OPP? the course director loves to pull some random questions from left field
 
you've got any tips for OPP? the course director loves to pull some random questions from left field

Honestly, I don't think I have anything useful to offer. I was terrible at OMM. All I can say is utilize Saverese/Green Book early and often. It will help.
 
Top