Amazing URM fact-oid

[yudalicious]

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however, I do know that I am more likely than you to work in an underserved community (which are definitely my plans by the way).

I need statistics for this... is there hard #s that prove said statement? That would certainly be interesting to see.

 

[Looque]

I come from an upper middle class afr. amer. family...so technically I should not reap the benefits of so called "aa"...however, I do know that I am more likely than you to work in an underserved community (which are definitely my plans by the way).

Don't jump to conclusions. I'm from a farming family in a town of 800 people and graduated with a high school class of seven. My hometown and the area I'm from in general is underserved in every sense of the word. I lived it. I'm very much interested in working with similar areas, and indeed that's my motivation for studying public health and/or health policy on the side.

 

[riceman04]

I need statistics for this... is there hard #s that prove said statement? That would certainly be interesting to see.

Not sure why you are trying to insight anger...do you have something against URM's?

good luck w/ that...I hope it helps your self-esteem

 

[riceman04]

Don't jump to conclusions. I'm from a farming family in a town of 800 people and graduated with a high school class of seven. My hometown and the area I'm from in general is underserved in every sense of the word. I lived it. I'm very much interested in working with similar areas, and indeed that's my motivation for studying public health and/or health policy on the side.

You are right...I should not jump to conclusions. I should have qualified that statement with the fact that the govt currently offers several scholarships to entice people to work in underserved communities (both rural and inner-city) and yet the majority of those who seek these scholarships are minorities.

but you are right - I should not jump to conclusions

 

[Ari Gold]

Take a look at MD Applicants. I've seen many more people who are URMs with low MCAT and GPAs than I have people who were "average" or really good. If you look at Harvard or UCSF, the only people who get in with GPAs less than 3.7 are URMs.

That being said, I don't think that these people are less able to do the work, but they haven't neccessarily done anything besides claiming to be a URM, and they get cut a LOT of slack for that in terms of GPA and MCAT.

These are nowhere near close to being near something that resembles anything near a reliable fact.

 

[yudalicious]

Not sure why you are trying to insight anger...do you have something against URM's?

good luck w/ that...I hope it helps your self-esteem

I think you totally misunderstood me, you said that you are more likely to work in an underserved area than looque, which doesn't mean all applicants like you will do the same. Anyway, I thought my opening was pretty witty, guess you took it the wrong way.

 

[laputan]

Furthermore, I'm a minority that has spent the majority of my life living in predominately white suburbs. While my financial resources were often equal to or surpassed many of my classmates, our experiences were not the same. I.E. I doubt they had to deal with being called racial slurs, never had the experience of NEVER having teachers that looked like them, no reflection of your culture's history being taught, or having to perpetually answer ignorant/racially insensitive questions posed by classmates....

All of the above can apply to many asian-americans as well, minus the urm benefits.

 

[astrife]

All of the above can apply to many asian-americans as well, minus the urm benefits.

Exactly! Everyone conviently forgets this. (I'm not Asian by the way)

 

[PHD_2007]

LOL @ this thread!!!! The issue seems to never go away. I wish that AAMC would track URMs and report board scores as well. 🙂

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

URMs are more likely to work in underserved areas as are crackers from rural underserved areas. There are indeed facts, wonderful statistical scientific facts showing this. You know where? In another one of the URM threads. try a search if you're into it. And yes, crackers from rural areas get a certain edge in admissions as well. Be not afraid white man. And yes, I am white and feel I have every right to use the word cracker. In fact, my kids are half-chinese/half-white so we call them our little rice crackers. If I offend, a thousand pardons.

 

[RxnMan]

...In fact, my kids are half-chinese/half-white so we call them our little rice crackers...

 

[novawildcat]

facts from aamc :

ratio of matriculants vs. applicants by race:

american indian: 43/123=35%
american indian black: 18/51=35%
american indian white: 113/249=45%
asian: 3349/7396=45%
asian white: 318/675=47%
black: 1103/2108=52%
black white: 80/122=66%
hawaiian/pacific islander: 21/50=42%
white: 11119/23425=47%

(i guess hispanics are thrown in with caucasians?)

overall highest acceptance rate= african americans/mixed african americans.


GPAs and MCAT (vr, ps, bs) scores of matriculants by Race:

Mexican American: 3.47 9.1, 9.1, 9.9
Puerto Rican: 3.49 7.6, 7.6, 8.4
Cuban: 3.58 9.1, 9.3, 9.8
Other Hispanic: 3.5 9.2, 9.4, 10
Multiple Hispanic: 3.46 8.7, 9.1, 9.7
Black: 3.36 8.2, 8.2, 8.8
Asian: 3.64 9.7, 10.8, 10.8
Native American: 3.43 8.5, 8.4, 9.1
native hawaiian: 3.59 8.9, 9.6, 10.1
white: 3.66 10.1, 10.2, 10.6


overall highest numbers for matriculants by race=tie between asians and whites- 3.64/31.2 vs. 3.66/30.9

 

[Vox Animo]

Some schools do only accept people that will practice in rural areas. Southern ILLinois Univeristys Medical school has 72 seats, an admissions officer at the school told me that had only accepted 1 student in the past three years that was from the chicago suburbs. As such, there Matriculant mcat scores and GPA are below the national average, but they do so because they believe it is the best way to combat the doctor shortage in their area.

Is the fair to the strung out stressed applicant no, but is it fair to the people who live in the area and use tax dollars to supports the school, yeah.

Pissed me off when i applied, but thems the breaks.

 

[DoctaJay]

I don't like your arguments at all. If you want to make up for hardships (retroactively as affirmative action is), then at least create a program that more accurately targets hardship. Offer affirmative action benefits based on socioeconomic status, not on race or ethnicity. If you want medical students who are more likely to have a connection to underserved populations and will therefore work with underserved populations, target the students that were themselves underserved growing up. Your arguments assume that affirmative action benefits those minority applicants who grew up underserved, when they could just as easily (and are much more likely to) benefit those minorities who had just as privileged of upbringing as any white suburbanite--afterall, they would have had a better education in the surburban schools, would have been more likely to attend a better college, etc.

In fact, and admitting that this is speculation on my part, I would argue that more underserved minorities would benefit from a program that targeted applicants by socioeconomic status rather than the current program which operates based on race and ethnicity. Also, this program wouldn't leave out the large and important population of poor rural applicants who would be more likely to serve poor rural areas later in life. (Or, do you expect the poor inner-city applicants to also wish to serve the rural underserved populations?)

Basing acceptance of URMs on socioeconomic status is certainly flawed, and its ok, I'll explain why.

First let me start off by saying that I'm not rich, but I'm certainly not poor. My mother is a pediatrician, my dad is a social worker, all of my mother's siblings are physicians, 30% of my church's members are physicians, others are lawyers, etc. Needless to say I didn't grow up in the ghetto. Now, according to your plan, despite the fact that I'm black, if another black person that grew up in the gettho with lower stats than me applied, he would get in over me. Now, technically that would make sense, but there is one thing that non-URMs probably don't understand.....MOST URMs THAT GROW UP IN GHETTOS OR SOCIOECONOMIC DEATH HOLES WILL NEVER GET OUT.

I work with kids in the projects all the time, and one thing that I've observed, and it has really broken my heart, is that most of the kids will never get the opportunity to make it. Most of their elders (and when I say elder, I mean that their grandma is like 30 years old) have only graduated from high school, therefore their parents cant' help them with their homework. The schools already suck, and if any kids in the area are just naturally smart (without some intervention) they will probably end up running illegal operations in the projects rather than being the footmen. For many of the kids, the only way out is through sports are music, and we all know how reliable that is. All of their role models are athletes, rappers, or local drug dealers who seem to have it all. They don't have many intellectual, academic role models to emulate, especially the black males.

So you say that medical schools should just take into consideration the socioeconomic status of the applicant, and figure that that will denote where they will return to. This is flawed first because of the black URMs that apply, probably like 1% of them actually came from ghettos or poor socioeconomic backgrounds. Most of the URMs that apply come from families that have gotten out of these poor areas to make a better life for their families. And believe it or not, it is people like this (like me) who desire to go into poor areas that they didn't grow up in, and give back. We want to serve as role models to the people in that community, so more will have a desire to stay in school, etc. So yeah, stop with the fairy tale stuff...blacks will want to treat blacks, and the majority of blacks are below the poverty line. Hispanics will want to treat their own, and the majority of hispanics are below the poverty line. Asians will want to treat those in their same class, which include thosewell above the poverty line, and so on and so on.

 

[DoctorPardi]

So you say that medical schools should just take into consideration the socioeconomic status of the applicant, and figure that that will denote where they will return to. This is flawed first because of the black URMs that apply, probably like 1% of them actually came from ghettos or poor socioeconomic backgrounds. Most of the URMs that apply come from families that have gotten out of these poor areas to make a better life for their families. And believe it or not, it is people like this (like me) who desire to go into poor areas that they didn't grow up in, and give back. We want to serve as role models to the people in that community, so more will have a desire to stay in school, etc. So yeah, stop with the fairy tale stuff...blacks will want to treat blacks, and the majority of blacks are below the poverty line. Hispanics will want to treat their own, and the majority of hispanics are below the poverty line. Asians will want to treat those in their same class, which include thosewell above the poverty line, and so on and so on.

I agree with your points. I think it is just so much more likely that a black person will try to promote education, wellness and numerous other good things in a black community than other ethnicities will. This I believe is worthwhile enough for 5% of the seats in medical school to be given to URMs. Applicants with slightly lower stats and a much higher probability of serving the underserved populations would benefit society as a whole better than another white premed gunning for a derm residency or something like that.

 

[geno2568]

Basing acceptance of URMs on socioeconomic status is certainly flawed, and its ok, I'll explain why.

First let me start off by saying that I'm not rich, but I'm certainly not poor. My mother is a pediatrician, my dad is a social worker, all of my mother's siblings are physicians, 30% of my church's members are physicians, others are lawyers, etc. Needless to say I didn't grow up in the ghetto. Now, according to your plan, despite the fact that I'm black, if another black person that grew up in the gettho with lower stats than me applied, he would get in over me. Now, technically that would make sense, but there is one thing that non-URMs probably don't understand.....MOST URMs THAT GROW UP IN GHETTOS OR SOCIOECONOMIC DEATH HOLES WILL NEVER GET OUT.

I work with kids in the projects all the time, and one thing that I've observed, and it has really broken my heart, is that most of the kids will never get the opportunity to make it. Most of their elders (and when I say elder, I mean that their grandma is like 30 years old) have only graduated from high school, therefore their parents cant' help them with their homework. The schools already suck, and if any kids in the area are just naturally smart (without some intervention) they will probably end up running illegal operations in the projects rather than being the footmen. For many of the kids, the only way out is through sports are music, and we all know how reliable that is. All of their role models are athletes, rappers, or local drug dealers who seem to have it all. They don't have many intellectual, academic role models to emulate, especially the black males.

So you say that medical schools should just take into consideration the socioeconomic status of the applicant, and figure that that will denote where they will return to. This is flawed first because of the black URMs that apply, probably like 1% of them actually came from ghettos or poor socioeconomic backgrounds. Most of the URMs that apply come from families that have gotten out of these poor areas to make a better life for their families. And believe it or not, it is people like this (like me) who desire to go into poor areas that they didn't grow up in, and give back. We want to serve as role models to the people in that community, so more will have a desire to stay in school, etc. So yeah, stop with the fairy tale stuff...blacks will want to treat blacks, and the majority of blacks are below the poverty line. Hispanics will want to treat their own, and the majority of hispanics are below the poverty line. Asians will want to treat those in their same class, which include thosewell above the poverty line, and so on and so on.

I agree with everything you say. My only objection is to the fact that medical schools should use these predictions when accepting students. While this is probably ok for primary care and state schools, tier-1 research schools shouldnt really care where there primary care graduates wind up, cuz theres so few of them. Who cares if applicant x is black or white? He'll probably go into research of opthamology anyway!!

 

[DoctorPardi]

I agree with everything you say. My only objection is to the fact that medical schools should use these predictions when accepting students. While this is probably ok for primary care and state schools, tier-1 research schools shouldnt really care where there primary care graduates wind up, cuz theres so few of them. Who cares if applicant x is black or white? He'll probably go into research of opthamology anyway!!

Well, treating underserved communities isn't something exclusive to primary care doctors. It is possibly as likely that a black researcher may research problems of the black community. Why is the average life expectancy for blacks lower than that of whites? How can they improve it? etc.

 

[geno2568]

Well, treating underserved communities isn't something exclusive to primary care doctors. It is possibly as likely that a black researcher may research problems of the black community. Why is the average life expectancy for blacks lower than that of whites? How can they improve it? etc.

true....but its the primary care ones that are most needed

 

[DoctorPardi]

true....but its the primary care ones that are most needed

Also I think Doctajay made a good sociological point about some blacks wanting to become role models. This is key in the development to any minorities education and socioeconomic improvement as a whole. Young blacks kids have athletes and rappers to look up to for role models. They do not have presidents, governors, doctors, lawyers, business leaders etc to look up too. So black doctors can improve the black community in other ways than primary care.

Consider also that there is a strong correlation between level of education and life expectancy/quality of life.

Washington Post

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

All I'm goint to say about this subject is that if just 1 worthy applicant gets screwed because a less qualified URM takes his/her spot, then the system is a failure. When you're talking thousands of applicants, no matter how small the total percentage of the pool, it's still BS.

 

[45408]

After showing up for med school, I'd have to say that I don't think there are more than six URMs, as far as I can tell - 10, if we're being generous. That means <5% of my class is a URM, and for all I know, they all have higher MCAT scores than the average non-URM student. Even if they did benefit from AA, it's a very, very small portion of the overall pie. I'm not justifying anything either way, but my point is that you don't really need to consider AA when you're wondering if you'll get into med school or not.

 

[DoctorPardi]

All I'm goint to say about this subject is that if just 1 worthy applicant gets screwed because a less qualified URM takes his/her spot, then the system is a failure. When you're talking thousands of applicants, no matter how small the total percentage of the pool, it's still BS.

The system should be about serving the nation's healthcare needs in the best way it can. It should not be about catering to applicants. In this regard, the system sparingly chooses applicants who will likely serve underserved populations.

It isn't about the student who made a 35 mcat and a 3.7 gpa not getting in because a URM had a 32 mcat and a 3.5 gpa. It is about the potential good the URM could do for a population that the other applicant would likely not do.

Think for a second about diminishing returns. If you had two buckets of water, your goal is to get both buckets of water a dark blue color by adding food coloring. In one bucket you start off with 20 drops of coloring already added, in the other bucket you have only 2 drops. If you wanted to make the most significant impact towards both buckets becomming the darkest blue they can, you would add that drop to the second bucket. Think about how this analogy relates to the healthcare needs of minority communities.

 

[45408]

All I'm goint to say about this subject is that if just 1 worthy applicant gets screwed because a less qualified URM takes his/her spot, then the system is a failure. When you're talking thousands of applicants, no matter how small the total percentage of the pool, it's still BS.

Probably wasn't that great of an applicant. If someone's got a 3.7/28/basic clinical experience, then they have a good shot at their state med school (sans CA). We're not talking about the 3.9/39 crew getting shafted by these devilish minorities. If you don't get into med school, it's not somebody else's fault.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Probably wasn't that great of an applicant. If someone's got a 3.7/28/basic clinical experience, then they have a good shot at their state med school (sans CA). We're not talking about the 3.9/39 crew getting shafted by these devilish minorities. If you don't get into med school, it's not somebody else's fault.

Correct. The ORM's with 3.9/39 are getting in somewhere. It's probably the Asian/white applicants with 3.4-3.5/30 that's getting shafted.

 

[tncekm]

You may want to review calculating percentages. 5% of a previously designated 10% does not equate to 5% of the original whole.....

It was fairly obvious that he wasn't saying 5% of 10% is equal to 5%, regardless of the typo. That is, obvious unless you lack the ability to see through such minor errors in ones presentation.

But anyways...many of you are failing to recognize that minorities, even when compared to their white socio-economic counterparts

I am not sure that using the phrase "white socio-economic counterparts" would be appropriate. I would say it probably is not. It would be more correct to say: white counterparts of similar socioeconomic status, but I won't argue semantics and be a smartass like some other people 🙄

, are still more likely to receive less adequate educations and healthcare.

You've made a claim, now substantiate it. By what force are URM's of high socioeconomic status being held down "by the man"?

Furthermore, I'm a minority that has spent the majority of my life living in predominately white suburbs. While my financial resources were often equal to or surpassed many of my classmates, our experiences were not the same.

Its all in the eye of the beholder. I know PLENTY of URMs who grew up in a predominantly white area who never noticed any of the problems you claim to have experience (or imagined).

I.E. I doubt they had to deal with being called racial slurs

OMFG you're out of your mind. If you think white kids don't experience racial prejudice you're insane. In fact, they experience it more often I'd say considering the high percentage of URM's who insist white people are all racist...that in itself is a racist assumption. In addition, minority on white crime is unproportionately higher than the reverse. You wouldnt' believe some of the glares and rudness I experience on a daily basis from URM's who I am trying to be very polite to. And, that is in a predominantly white town. I have buddies who grew up in predominantly URM towns and they were physically and verbally assaulted on a daily basis. Don't pull this "white people don't experience racism" crap out of thin air in an attempt to justify your beliefs.

reflection of your culture's history being taught,

This country was founded and is entirely based on European migrants. Does it suprise you that a country that was founded and developed by Europeans tends to have a heavily European education on history. In addition, most major historical world events over the past thousand years involved Europeans. They have shaped the modern world into what it is today and therefore are going to be the bulk of any general history class. This should be of no surprise to the logically thinking mind.

or having to perpetually answer ignorant/racially insensitive questions posed by classmates....

Oh, I think I've got this one covered too. It is assumed by many minorities that the evil white europeans have ruined the world and these assumptions and beliefs are stated as facts to our faces. I think that's very racially insensitive, do you?

 

[RokChalkJayhawk]

My Aunt teaches in Oakland. Her high school, which is predominantly populated by black and other URMs literally looks like it was bombed. Windows are just missing, the buildings are run down, and it just is not an inspiring place to go to school.

Now take La Costa Canyon/Torrey Pines high schools in San Diego.

These two high schools could easily pass for UC campuses. The amenities at these schools are unbelievable, even by average public school standards. Most of the students at both schools are white, and a great deal go on to four year schools.

Despite the fact both groups are going to public high schools in California, which should be the same if at least not similar, it is obvious which group already has a better shot.

It's "Separate But Equal" without the government's official support.

URM's aren't getting accepted to make up for racism. They're getting accepted because of the evident disparity in America's educational system.

 

[monday_best]

I hate how polarizing this issue is, and how much time I waste thinking about how polarizing this is. So how about this:

AdComs are made up of individuals who (much like SDNers) probably all have varying opinions on AA and how they want to increase representation of the underrepresented at their schools. I am sure they don't all support AA. I am sure even the ones who do have their troubles with it. AA is a flawed solution to a very difficult problem.

I'm sure they (this being their paid employment), have thought a lot about issues of fairness, socioeconomic disadvantage, and meeting the needs of the rural and underserved. I'm sure they've had these very same discussions, participated on panels, maybe even read the research.

What some seem to be forgetting here is that admissions committees know what it takes for a student to succeed at their schools and the kind of student community they want to enable. They are very experienced at selecting students. They review thousands and select hundreds a year. It's their job.

And while we know the system can seem a little quirky and definitely opaque, I'd venture to say that anyone an admissions commitee selects for their school is qualified for that school.

So, can we please concentrate all this energy on just being awesome applicants? The kind that get selected by admissions committees?

Okay, good.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

The system should be about serving the nation's healthcare needs in the best way it can. It should not be about catering to applicants. In this regard, the system sparingly chooses applicants who will likely serve underserved populations.

It isn't about the student who made a 35 mcat and a 3.7 gpa not getting in because a URM had a 32 mcat and a 3.5 gpa. It is about the potential good the URM could do for a population that the other applicant would likely not do.

Think for a second about diminishing returns. If you had two buckets of water, your goal is to get both buckets of water a dark blue color by adding food coloring. In one bucket you start off with 20 drops of coloring already added, in the other bucket you have only 2 drops. If you wanted to make the most significant impact towards both buckets becomming the darkest blue they can, you would add that drop to the second bucket. Think about how this analogy relates to the healthcare needs of minority communities.

I'm not saying that having a better represented population of doctors is a bad thing, in fact, I think the current system is the best method given the current state of our country. The problem is that we are addressing the big issues far too late. We aren't fixing any problems, we are just accomodating to them. A better system would tackle these problems at the source, thus, our current system has failed...and it will stay this way because, again, it only accommodates to much deeper societal issues. Using statistics to justify the system only masks its inherrent problems. This is especially true when small percentages are equated to small numbers, a logical fallacy and common misuse of statistics. I'll use an example to point out the error: The percentage of smokers who get cancer is also small, does this mean we should ignore the millions of smokers who get cancer? Some more food for thought, will a fully racially represented physician workforce really service certain communities better than before? Is there research that definitively shows that black/hispanic doctors are more likely to service their respective communities? Wouldn't this just continue to mask problems that need to be faced? What about all the fully-qualified URM doctors who now have to live with the stigma of having an "easy ride" for the rest of their careers? Should they feel an obligation to make a career out of charity work because of this? Again, I'm not saying the end is bad, but getting there leaves a lot to be desired.

Lastly, I hardly have an alternative to this system, and I think it works pretty well as long as there isn't one, but I do think a spade should be called a spade.

 

[1Path]

And yes, I am white and feel I have every right to use the word cracker. In fact, my kids are half-chinese/half-white so we call them our little rice crackers. If I offend, a thousand pardons.

Now if I had said that, I would have been reported to the moderators AGAIN!

 

[riceman04]

work with kids in the projects all the time, and one thing that I've observed, and it has really broken my heart, is that most of the kids will never get the opportunity to make it. Most of their elders (and when I say elder, I mean that their grandma is like 30 years old) have only graduated from high school, therefore their parents cant' help them with their homework. The schools already suck, and if any kids in the area are just naturally smart (without some intervention) they will probably end up running illegal operations in the projects rather than being the footmen. For many of the kids, the only way out is through sports are music, and we all know how reliable that is. All of their role models are athletes, rappers, or local drug dealers who seem to have it all. They don't have many intellectual, academic role models to emulate, especially the black males.

This is the absolute truth and is definitely not region specific.

 

[geno2568]

My Aunt teaches in Oakland. Her high school, which is predominantly populated by black and other URMs literally looks like it was bombed. Windows are just missing, the buildings are run down, and it just is not an inspiring place to go to school.

Now take La Costa Canyon/Torrey Pines high schools in San Diego.

These two high schools could easily pass for UC campuses. The amenities at these schools are unbelievable, even by average public school standards. Most of the students at both schools are white, and a great deal go on to four year schools.

Despite the fact both groups are going to public high schools in California, which should be the same if at least not similar, it is obvious which group already has a better shot.

It's "Separate But Equal" without the government's official support.

URM's aren't getting accepted to make up for racism. They're getting accepted because of the evident disparity in America's educational system.

This has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with poverty. The Oakland school is in bad shape because it's in a poor community, not because the people there are black.

 

[coco11]

My Aunt teaches in Oakland. Her high school, which is predominantly populated by black and other URMs literally looks like it was bombed. Windows are just missing, the buildings are run down, and it just is not an inspiring place to go to school.

Now take La Costa Canyon/Torrey Pines high schools in San Diego.

These two high schools could easily pass for UC campuses. The amenities at these schools are unbelievable, even by average public school standards. Most of the students at both schools are white, and a great deal go on to four year schools.

Despite the fact both groups are going to public high schools in California, which should be the same if at least not similar, it is obvious which group already has a better shot.

It's "Separate But Equal" without the government's official support.

URM's aren't getting accepted to make up for racism. They're getting accepted because of the evident disparity in America's educational system.

great post!

i too, have spent an extensive amount of time in underpriviledged high schools with kids from broken homes and extremeley poor families in East Cleveland. This kind of thing is prevalent in many areas of the country, and i think it is laughable that so many people refuse to acknowledge this educational disparity - those that somehow think their rich background and 30K a year prep school didn't give them an edge.

Most kids in these schools won't even graduate HIGH SCHOOL. Many bright children in these schools can't reach their full potential because they are stuck in classes with kids with LDs or those in the extreme low IQ range. The classes are so large and schools understaffed that kids can't get the attention they need or deserve. On top of all of that, there is a lack of role models in their communities. Most of them can't just shadow mom or dad at work like a lot of premeds that I know have been able to.

I really wish some people from SDN would walk out of their little priviledged bubble, go visit some of these schools, and then come back here and say why AA is wrong.

 

[coco11]

This has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with poverty. The Oakland school is in bad shape because it's in a poor community, not because the people there are black.

oh shut it. and what populations are most likely to be in poor communities with poor public schools? african americans, hispanic americans, etc.

no one is saying that there aren't poor predominantly white (or insert NON URM ethnicity/race here) schools. but there are a hell of a lot of white doctors now, and there will be many many many more in the future. a lot of schools have less than 10 URM spots! why does this bother people so much? get accepted to med school on your own merit. it is the adcoms perogative to choose those best for their school, and it's not always a high MCAT score that makes the best doctor.

 

[geno2568]

oh shut it. and what populations are most likely to be in poor communities with poor public schools? african americans, hispanic americans, etc.

no one is saying that there aren't poor predominantly white (or insert NON URM ethnicity/race here) schools. but there are a hell of a lot of white doctors now, and there will be many many many more in the future. a lot of schools have less than 10 URM spots! why does this bother people so much? get accepted to med school on your own merit. it is the adcoms perogative to choose those best for their school, and it's not always a high MCAT score that makes the best doctor.

whoa whoa......i never said anything about med schools in that post, nor did I discount the fact that most of the kids in the poor communities are black/hispanic/etc.

My high school, and many other "good" high schools in the nyc area, have allowed URM's that are zoned to other high schools to attend. Perhaps Oakland should try a similar solution.

However, I would also agree with the point that DoctorJay made earlier, that these problems are inherent in the community, and affect kids way before high school age.

You're right...i should get into med school on my own merit, and it isn't just mcats that dictate who will make good doctors. But please don't put words in my 😱

 

[ChymeChancellor]

oh shut it. and what populations are most likely to be in poor communities with poor public schools? african americans, hispanic americans, etc.

no one is saying that there aren't poor predominantly white (or insert NON URM ethnicity/race here) schools. but there are a hell of a lot of white doctors now, and there will be many many many more in the future. a lot of schools have less than 10 URM spots! why does this bother people so much? get accepted to med school on your own merit. it is the adcoms perogative to choose those best for their school, and it's not always a high MCAT score that makes the best doctor.

Okay... if we can't use the MCAT what should we use?

And relaxing the requirements for URM's doesn't exactly fix the problem of those in poverty. Affirmative action in medical school does almost nothing to help those communities. A long term solution is needed in addition to AA. I'm not a sociology major or anything, but those who currently live in poverty probably came from families in poverty. The cycle needs to end or this nation will be headed downhill. Allowing a few more minorities into medical school doesn't help enough. I think the most effort should be placed in elementary education for those in poverty and offering more programs and counseling to make sure these kids can get through high school.

This was a little off topic now and I'm sure this argument has been stated hundreds of times already.

EDIT: Just read some of the previous posts.... I didn't add anything new.

 

[DoctaJay]

Q: If no URM were admitted to medical school, what proportion of those non-URM who do not matriculate in a given year (are not admitted to any school) would still be without an offer of admission?

A: I don't have my handy tables with me but I'm going to venture an estimate: The proportion of non-matriculants who would still be sitting out in the cold if no URM were admitted to any US medical school (including Howard and the other historically black institutions) is ~89%.

(about half of the ~35,000 applicants per year are not admitted to any school. About 10% of those who are admitted are URM and 10% of those who are not admitted are URM. So, currently ~15,750 non-URM do not get admitted to any school. If there were no URM, the number of non-URM who would not be admitted to any school would be ~14,000)

I just wanted to bring us all back to what the OP (which happens to be an adcomm right?) said. Her overall point...and the point we should focus on....is that there really is still an abysml number of URMs that are accepted into medical school. Getting mad about people who are present in such small numbers is truly stupid, and complaining about it on SDN is a waste of time.

 

[ChymeChancellor]

I just wanted to bring us all back to what the OP (which happens to be an adcomm right?) said. Her overall point...and the point we should focus on....is that there really is still an abysml number of URMs that are accepted into medical school. Getting mad about people who are present in such small numbers is truly stupid, and complaining about it on SDN is a waste of time.

But then who would we have to blame if we're not accepted....

 

[tncekm]

True.

Just realize that the abysmal number of URM's you speak of still are accepted at a rate of approximately 50% just like non-URMs. (Its in MSAR).

 

[DoctaJay]

Okay... if we can't use the MCAT what should we use?

And relaxing the requirements for URM's doesn't exactly fix the problem of those in poverty. Affirmative action in medical school does almost nothing to help those communities. A long term solution is needed in addition to AA. I'm not a sociology major or anything, but those who currently live in poverty probably came from families in poverty. The cycle needs to end or this nation will be headed downhill. Allowing a few more minorities into medical school doesn't help enough. I think the most effort should be placed in elementary education for those in poverty and offering more programs and counseling to make sure these kids can get through high school.

This was a little off topic now and I'm sure this argument has been stated hundreds of times already.

EDIT: Just read some of the previous posts.... I didn't add anything new.

That is a great point, but the sad part is that that will never happen. Schools in poorer neighbors will never get better, so since we've gotten past all that, we have to nip the problem at the end with the imperfect system of AA.

 

[Ari Gold]

All I'm goint to say about this subject is that if just 1 worthy applicant gets screwed because a less qualified URM takes his/her spot, then the system is a failure. When you're talking thousands of applicants, no matter how small the total percentage of the pool, it's still BS.

who said the system doesn't have tons of flaws? what white applicants file in a single file line and by numbers, EC and the "deservedness factor" that you obviously know so well are assigned to the top-ranked school, then the next and so on. So if just one 'worthy' white candidate doesn't get in because another less-worthy white candidate took his/her spot, is the system a failure then?

 

[geno2568]

That is a great point, but the sad part is that that will never happen. Schools in poorer neighbors will never get better, so since we've gotten past all that, we have to nip the problem at the end with the imperfect system of AA.

The way to break the cycle is to stop the crime and revitalize the community. The only way to make the communities better is to rebuild schools/playgrounds/libraries/etc, while simultaneously cutting down gang violence and drug dealing.

Yes, I realize that this is a bit idealistic and very difficult......but it can be done (given time, of course) providing that the city actually devote some resources to it.(that is, if the city has any).

just my two sents on the issue.

 

[TSK]

You've made a claim, now substantiate it. By what force are URM's of high socioeconomic status being held down "by the man"?

TSK:I'd be more than happy to substantiate my previous claim. Here are a couple of links to get you started:
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/june05/word.htm
http://www.centerjd.org/free/NYracetestimony.pdf

Its all in the eye of the beholder. I know PLENTY of URMs who grew up in a predominantly white area who never noticed any of the problems you claim to have experience (or imagined).
TSK: I'm pretty sure that I didn't imagine being called the ''N" word on numerous occasions, nor were those racist jokes figments of my imagination. I'm pleased that your URM friends didn't have to endure such indignities.

OMFG you're out of your mind. If you think white kids don't experience racial prejudice you're insane. In fact, they experience it more often I'd say considering the high percentage of URM's who insist white people are all racist...that in itself is a racist assumption. In addition, minority on white crime is unproportionately higher than the reverse. You wouldnt' believe some of the glares and rudness I experience on a daily basis from URM's who I am trying to be very polite to. And, that is in a predominantly white town. I have buddies who grew up in predominantly URM towns and they were physically and verbally assaulted on a daily basis. Don't pull this "white people don't experience racism" crap out of thin air in an attempt to justify your beliefs.
This country was founded and is entirely based on European migrants. Does it suprise you that a country that was founded and developed by Europeans tends to have a heavily European education on history. In addition, most major historical world events over the past thousand years involved Europeans. They have shaped the modern world into what it is today and therefore are going to be the bulk of any general history class. This should be of no surprise to the logically thinking mind.
TSK:I don't recall stating that whites don't experience racism...


Oh, I think I've got this one covered too. It is assumed by many minorities that the evil white europeans have ruined the world and these assumptions and beliefs are stated as facts to our faces. I think that's very racially insensitive, do you?[/QUOTE]
TSK:Speaking of substantiating claims.....have you taken a recent poll of "many minorities" proving that we think that evil white Europeans have ruined the world? I personally am not a member of that camp.

It was fairly obvious that he wasn't saying 5% of 10% is equal to 5%, regardless of the typo. That is, obvious unless you lack the ability to see through such minor errors in ones presentation.

I am not sure that using the phrase "white socio-economic counterparts" would be appropriate. I would say it probably is not. It would be more correct to say: white counterparts of similar socioeconomic status, but I won't argue semantics and be a smartass like some other people 🙄

 

[star2007]

All I'm goint to say about this subject is that if just 1 worthy applicant gets screwed because a less qualified URM takes his/her spot, then the system is a failure. When you're talking thousands of applicants, no matter how small the total percentage of the pool, it's still BS.

What due you mean by less qualified? Numbers? How can you measure a system fairly when the system isn’t fair in the first place? AA helps to off set discrimination that applicants have endured. This discrimination also manifests in the numbers. An URM may write a better paper than a non-URM, but receive a lower grade due to the fact that the reader can’t relate to the writer, prejudice, or favoritism. We all see this favoritism toward athletes, but we ignore it when it comes to race. How many of you know athletes that received A’s through school, but reads and writes on 5th grade level? If one of these athletes applies to medical school, will they be more qualified because they have a higher GPA?

 

[45408]

I just wanted to bring us all back to what the OP (which happens to be an adcomm right?) said. Her overall point...and the point we should focus on....is that there really is still an abysml number of URMs that are accepted into medical school. Getting mad about people who are present in such small numbers is truly stupid, and complaining about it on SDN is a waste of time.

The problem is prior to the med school application cycle. More applicants would yield more matriculants. Plenty of the applicants get in, but there just aren't plenty of applicants.

 

[GraC_undr_PrsR]

The way to break the cycle is to stop the crime and revitalize the community. The only way to make the communities better is to rebuild schools/playgrounds/libraries/etc, while simultaneously cutting down gang violence and drug dealing.

Yes, I realize that this is a bit idealistic and very difficult......but it can be done (given time, of course) providing that the city actually devote some resources to it.(that is, if the city has any).

just my two sents on the issue.

When you finish medical school will you devote your career in making these communities better? Will you practice in an inner-city clinic and mentor local youth on weekends, provide volunteering jobs to local youths so they can aspire to medical fields? Will you spend part of your day planning community wellness exercises to promote preventative health care? Will you do research on health disparities in the black and hispanic communities to identify why these individuals succumb to cardiovascular and auto-immune diseases (heart disease and Lupus in black women for e.g.) at higher rates than their white or Asian counterparts?
These aspects of medicine and research appeal to mainly URMs. I don't understand the back-and-forth over this issue. Simply put, only 40-odd years ago many medical schools operated under a highly efficient system of Negative Action.

 

[nekrogg]

haha this thread is so ridiculous. there is no answer to the problem and there never will be. move on people

 

[TSK]

You're right...but everytime I try to avoid such debates, they pull me back in...

haha this thread is so ridiculous. there is no answer to the problem and there never will be. move on people

 

[geno2568]

When you finish medical school will you devote your career in making these communities better? Will you practice in an inner-city clinic and mentor local youth on weekends, provide volunteering jobs to local youths so they can aspire to medical fields? Will you spend part of your day planning community wellness exercises to promote preventative health care? Will you do research on health disparities in the black and hispanic communities to identify why these individuals succumb to cardiovascular and auto-immune diseases (heart disease and Lupus in black women for e.g.) at higher rates than their white or Asian counterparts?

Will you?

 

[GraC_undr_PrsR]

Yes I will.

 

[ChymeChancellor]

Yes I will.

It's funny how all this idealism ends once in medical school and beyond. With the hectic schedules and other obligations there won't be enough time in the day to devote much time to this.