Amazing URM fact-oid

[notdeadyet]

Lastly, the asians who come here are from Asia and are NOT poor... Think about it... we are dealing with their elite. There aren't poor kids in China who just sit around thinking, "silly Americans I am so much smarter than them when I grow up I am going to go over there and be a NON-URM... IMMPOSSIBLE.

Ack. You couldn't be more wrong.

I taught ESL in California for five years and about half the students I taught were Asian. Most were very poor. I haven't met any of the "Asian elite" immigrants in my work as a teacher, and only a few later in the technology field.

In my experience, the usual immigrant story is that an extended family saved up enough money in China/Vietnam/Indonesia to send over one of the men, who left his family behind. He worked his a$$ off and tried to save enough money to send back to his family to send another male member of his extended family. Eventually, after working 80 hours a week in usually lousy jobs, they can start sending for their wives and children. This process usually takes years.

Please don't make sweeping generalizations about the immigration experience. After watching them struggle and fight for everything they have and to improve their lot in life, it's pretty offensive.

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[stinastina]

I've wondered this too. Ever meet those people who claim to have "some Indian blood" in 'em? Always seems to be "1/16th Cherokee", doesn't it? I geuss white Grandads tell the same tall tales to their grandkids across the nation.

How do you proove or disproove that you are a URM? There are plenty of white Mexicans whose ancestors never happened to mix with the native folks down south. I had a friend who was 1/4 black, but looked completely "white". Couldn't anyone claim to be a URM? Should geneological records be required to get URM status? Could one of the white or asian folk upset about the URM situation decide to take advantage of the system and claim to be "Mexican-American" or "African-American"?

I've spent most of my life in predominantly hispanic cities and didn't realize there was anything "different" about Mexicans until I moved to an almost all White city. I feel as comfortable around hispanic folk as I do white folk (actually, I'd take a poor Mexican over a poor Redneck anyday). My spouse is an Espanola and our son is Mexican. I seriously plan to work with hispanic populations (already volunteer in one such area). Will these factors be taken into consideration by ADCOMS? A white fella with strong ties to the Mexican community? Accepting me would seem to fullfill the goal of the URM program, wouldn't it (to have more doctors working with underserved minority populations)?

I do think that the URM system is a nice start to bring more doctors to underserverd areas, but why does the government not offer more incentives to work in underserved areas? Perhaps they could do away with malpractice premiums for doctors working in these areas? Perhaps loan forgiveness? Perhaps a lower tax-rate? These are just ideas, and I'm a fan of drastic measures to fix a broken system that never seems to change. What do you all think could be done to increase the availability of healthcare to poor and minority communities?

The US operates on the one drop theory in regards to AA. If you have one drop of black blood in you, you are identified as AA regardless of your phenotypic expression. There was a woman who lost a case in the south regarding changing her birth certificate to indicate she was white even though her black ancestors were far removed.

http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/Omi-Winant.html

In regards to Native Americans, if you are 1/8 Native American, you are considered white or ineligible to claim Native American status, according to the government. You must be 1/4 in order to claim your heritage and receive whatever benefits the federal or state government bestows. And they ARE required to provide genealogical evidence because they actually may receive some type of benefit from the government.

This doesn't stop people from self-identifying whatever they want.

And some med schools offer loan forgiveness faculty positions in underserved areas for graduating residents in primary care.

You personally have demonstrated a commitment to working in underserved areas but I would be reticent to consider you a URM based solely on your wife's background.

 

[nervousivy]

Obvious fact #1. In fact, I'm not a minority and I have a specific history too


Note, history of oppression. Not oppressed any more. Think asians.


If you can list, say, 3 "unique factors" that African-Americans, um, 'endure' that are the sole products of 'oppression', I might believe you. Present oppression, mind you, don't tell me they live on plantations

Until then,

Dear Mac...Did you take anything besides science classes during undergrad? This topic has been beaten into the ground. If you think the after effects of the oppression minority groups are all over, then you are quite slow.

Honestly, at some med schools there are less than 5 Black people in the entire class. Some top schools have only 2 Black males per class. We are not "stealing" your spot. Who said it was your spot any way? Speaking for myself, I would rather attend a relatively diverse (background, race, socioeconomic level, etc.) med school then one filled with 3.8+ and 36+ people who were just chosen based on their scores. Schools want smart people who have interesting experiences. Schools are also intelligent enough to realize that scores are not the be all and end all of applicants.

 

[christian15213]

Ack. You couldn't be more wrong.

I taught ESL in California for five years and about half the students I taught were Asian. Most were very poor. I haven't met any of the "Asian elite" immigrants in my work as a teacher, and only a few later in the technology field.

In my experience, the usual immigrant story is that an extended family saved up enough money in China/Vietnam/Indonesia to send over one of the men, who left his family behind. He worked his a$$ off and tried to save enough money to send back to his family to send another male member of his extended family. Eventually, after working 80 hours a week in usually lousy jobs, they can start sending for their wives and children. This process usually takes years.

Please don't make sweeping generalizations about the immigration experience. After watching them struggle and fight for everything they have and to improve their lot in life, it's pretty offensive.

see this is what makes your argument so silly... Everything you said was about OVERALL immigration... You could have been talking about any and every migrant group here in the US... HELLLOOOOOOO in there... I mean come on already... I am talking about MED school and RESEARCH STUDENTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS....

NONE OF what you said is about med school and research students.... GO to your schools labs and go to medical schools and ask were they came from and I think you will be VERY surprised....

 

[acrobat]

"Lastly, the asians who come here are from Asia and are NOT poor... Think about it... we are dealing with their elite. There aren't poor kids in China who just sit around thinking, "silly Americans I am so much smarter than them when I grow up I am going to go over there and be a NON-URM... IMMPOSSIBLE. We are dealing with their elites and it pretty much is the same for all our foriegn educational imports. That is why I was saying that regardless of color, our kids, ALL of our kids are disadvantaged by the "pre packaged foriegn student." "


Well there are least some poor whites an Asians somewhere I am sure of it. This people should be considered on par with a the blacks\hispanics that get affirmative action. The system should go entirely off economics.

Besides- if this system is to counteract racism, why isn't racism holding these foreign asians elites as you say.

 

[christian15213]

"Lastly, the asians who come here are from Asia and are NOT poor... Think about it... we are dealing with their elite. There aren't poor kids in China who just sit around thinking, "silly Americans I am so much smarter than them when I grow up I am going to go over there and be a NON-URM... IMMPOSSIBLE. We are dealing with their elites and it pretty much is the same for all our foriegn educational imports. That is why I was saying that regardless of color, our kids, ALL of our kids are disadvantaged by the "pre packaged foriegn student." "


Well there are least some poor whites an Asians somewhere I am sure of it. This people should be considered on par with a the blacks\hispanics that get affirmative action. The system should go entirely off economics.

Besides- if this system is to counteract racism, why isn't racism holding these foreign asians elites as you say.

You actually make a good point. Now, one obvious arguement is that being Asian is a lot closer to being white, in pure terms of phenotypic character than blacks or latino's are.

Furthermore, It is obvious that Asians have made inroads... and that is awsome... If blacks and latino's could make the same inroads and gain legitamate respect in the field and discrimination was at an all time low then you are correct, there would be NO NEED FOR AA for URM's...

But that is not the case, and one should remember the United States History... We gave Italians and Irish a really HARD time... There are horror stories that rivaled the slaves in their oppresion... However, again it is a lot easier to assimilate when you at the very least LOOK like each other, and yes that being white. So, hopefully in the future it will get better but at this point URM's are in need of a little help...

 

[hucm2009]

The system that admissions committees use now is not to right the wrongs done by past injustices. In the health profession, its to make equal the % of urms in society with the % of urms that are doctors. This is because numerous studies have been done and show that doctors will serve those of there own race w/ better care than those of other races. URMS do not recieve the level of health care that whties and asians do because of this reason. For example, a study was done that shows the rate the bypass surgery was performed on those patients who complained of moderate to severe angina, which is chest pain you get when your hearts blood vessels are blocked. Life saving bypass surgery was performed on whites at a rate of 14% more than it was performed on blacks with the same symptoms. These health disparities among races, which i believe is very compelling, are the reason that adcoms consider race in admissions. If you want more studies showing these health disparities, I can send them to you.

 

[8744]

The system that admissions committees use now is not to right the wrongs done by past injustices. In the health profession, its to make equal the % of urms in society with the % of urms that are doctors. This is because numerous studies have been done and show that doctors will serve those of there own race w/ better care than those of other races. URMS do not recieve the level of health care that whties and asians do because of this reason. For example, a study was done that shows the rate the bypass surgery was performed on those patients who complained of moderate to severe angina, which is chest pain you get when your hearts blood vessels are blocked. Life saving bypass surgery was performed on whites at a rate of 14% more than it was performed on blacks with the same symptoms. These health disparities among races, which i believe is very compelling, are the reason that adcoms consider race in admissions. If you want more studies showing these health disparities, I can send them to you.

Whoa. Those are incredbly fuzzy studies undertaken by people who wanted to prove their hypothesis to grind an axe here or there. In other words, do you think they'd ever come out and say, "Well, we looked at it and the disparities in health care have nothing to do with race. Sorry. have a nice day?"

The axe they want to grind is coming up with a new justifications for affirmative action now that the racism of the Jim Crow days is fading from generational memory.

There are many reasons not to do bypass surgery including ability to pay the surgeon, comorbidities, proximity to a hospital that will perform a CABG, and cultural preferences of the patient, none of which have anything to do with racism on the part of the doctor and would not be effected by his race either.

You want it both ways. On one hand patients need to be treated by doctors of their own race, on the other hand if I built a Whites Only hospital with all white doctors, nurses, and patients you'd be on me like piss on a bum's shoe.

 

[acrobat]

"The system that admissions committees use now is not to right the wrongs done by past injustices. In the health profession, its to make equal the % of urms in society with the % of urms that are doctors. This is because numerous studies have been done and show that doctors will serve those of there own race w/ better care than those of other races. URMS do not recieve the level of health care that whties and asians do because of this reason. For example, a study was done that shows the rate the bypass surgery was performed on those patients who complained of moderate to severe angina, which is chest pain you get when your hearts blood vessels are blocked. Life saving bypass surgery was performed on whites at a rate of 14% more than it was performed on blacks with the same symptoms. These health disparities among races, which i believe is very compelling, are the reason that adcoms consider race in admissions. If you want more studies showing these health disparities, I can send them to you."


This is about the only coherent argument made for a.a. so far on these forums. Everything Christian has said is nothing but left win propaganda that has made not a shred of sense.

 

[CaramelDlite]

There are many reasons not to do bypass surgery including ability to pay the surgeon, comorbidities, proximity to a hospital that will perform a CABG, and cultural preferences of the patient, none of which have anything to do with racism on the part of the doctor and would not be effected by his race either.

You want it both ways. On one hand patients need to be treated by doctors of their own race, on the other hand if I built a Whites Only hospital with all white doctors, nurses, and patients you'd be on me like piss on a bum's shoe.

The racism here is not overt, but it has an effect. I too learned of these studies in my Health Economics class, and even socioeconomic status was controlled for. Actors were given a strict script to adhere to and there were both wealthy and poor representors for each race, so everyone had the exact same description of their symptoms. The difference in treatment prescribed was of statistical significance to suggest that there is a bias against minorities (and a small bias against women- black women had the worst results). This bias was not present for socioeconomic status, so that rules out ability to pay. I don't think this is warm and fuzzy at all, but if you seem set on believing something, there is not much that can be done about that.

 

[1Path]

The system that admissions committees use now is not to right the wrongs done by past injustices. In the health profession, its to make equal the % of urms in society with the % of urms that are doctors. This is because numerous studies have been done and show that doctors will serve those of there own race w/ better care than those of other races. URMS do not recieve the level of health care that whties and asians do because of this reason. For example, a study was done that shows the rate the bypass surgery was performed on those patients who complained of moderate to severe angina, which is chest pain you get when your hearts blood vessels are blocked. Life saving bypass surgery was performed on whites at a rate of 14% more than it was performed on blacks with the same symptoms. These health disparities among races, which i believe is very compelling, are the reason that adcoms consider race in admissions. If you want more studies showing these health disparities, I can send them to you.

Great post which of course is pretty commone knowledge among Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans and others who work with these populations. Unfortunately, it's too bad that with very few exceptions, what you're trying to say is going to fall on deaf ears!!

 

[ether^O^]

You actually make a good point. Now, one obvious arguement is that being Asian is a lot closer to being white, in pure terms of phenotypic character than blacks or latino's are.

Furthermore, It is obvious that Asians have made inroads... and that is awsome... If blacks and latino's could make the same inroads and gain legitamate respect in the field and discrimination was at an all time low then you are correct, there would be NO NEED FOR AA for URM's...

But that is not the case, and one should remember the United States History... We gave Italians and Irish a really HARD time... There are horror stories that rivaled the slaves in their oppresion... However, again it is a lot easier to assimilate when you at the very least LOOK like each other, and yes that being white. So, hopefully in the future it will get better but at this point URM's are in need of a little help...

You racist SOB, how the f*** do Asians "phenotypically" look like white people? Asians look nothing like white people, and you can EASILY distinguish between Asians and whites. The ethnic group that resembles whits the most are Latinos, because many of them don't have much (if any) native American blood.

And you're one of those people who know NOTHING about Asian American history who could take an Asian American history course at your local college and learn about the crap that we had to face in the past 200 years.

 

[ether^O^]

"The system that admissions committees use now is not to right the wrongs done by past injustices. In the health profession, its to make equal the % of urms in society with the % of urms that are doctors. This is because numerous studies have been done and show that doctors will serve those of there own race w/ better care than those of other races. URMS do not recieve the level of health care that whties and asians do because of this reason. For example, a study was done that shows the rate the bypass surgery was performed on those patients who complained of moderate to severe angina, which is chest pain you get when your hearts blood vessels are blocked. Life saving bypass surgery was performed on whites at a rate of 14% more than it was performed on blacks with the same symptoms. These health disparities among races, which i believe is very compelling, are the reason that adcoms consider race in admissions. If you want more studies showing these health disparities, I can send them to you."


This is about the only coherent argument made for a.a. so far on these forums. Everything Christian has said is nothing but left win propaganda that has made not a shred of sense.

If the # of black applicants to medical school is 2800, and the total # of applicants is 30,000 (<10%), how can the % of blacks in med school ever equal the % of blacks in the population (about 13%)?!? Even if you accept 100% of black applicants (which would be stupid), you can't equal that.

On another note, the Martin Luther King Jr. hospital is closing because of terrible healthcare. The hospital is almost all black-run, and it has some of the worst facilities and physicians that you can find in California (it almost lost accreditation). This is a perfect case of AA failing, because these African-Americans can't provide adequate healthcare to its people.

 

[CaramelDlite]

If the # of black applicants to medical school is 2800, and the total # of applicants is 30,000 (<10%), how can the % of blacks in med school ever equal the % of blacks in the population (about 13%)?!? Even if you accept 100% of black applicants (which would be stupid), you can't equal that.

On another note, the Martin Luther King Jr. hospital is closing because of terrible healthcare. The hospital is almost all black-run, and it has some of the worst facilities and physicians that you can find in California (it almost lost accreditation). This is a perfect case of AA failing, because these African-Americans can't provide adequate healthcare to its people.[/QUOTE]

Oh really?? So I should assume this is the first hospital in the history of the United States to have closed- or maybe all black run hospitals are closed? You seem to be some kind of ignorant. And what kind of funding did this hospital have? Most likely this hospital is located in a poor neighborhood and has very poor funding. Poorer hospitals have worse facilities and equipment. Before you make large generalizations, compare it to a hospital in similar circumstances.

 

[Julius Erving]

You racist SOB, how the f*** do Asians "phenotypically" look like white people? Asians look nothing like white people, and you can EASILY distinguish between Asians and whites. The ethnic group that resembles whits the most are Latinos, because many of them don't have much (if any) native American blood.

And you're one of those people who know NOTHING about Asian American history who could take an Asian American history course at your local college and learn about the crap that we had to face in the past 200 years.

actually, he is correct. Phenotypically asians are closer to white people than those other groups. That's why many asians are considered caucasian.. or caucazoids. Much of the phenotye similarites have to do with phrenology, skull structure, etc.

"It is currently often used in the US as a general term for "white", and used by many physical anthropologists to refer to people of European origin. However, the so-called Caucasians can range from light-"white"-skin (with blond hair and blue eyes) to dark-brown-skin (with black hair and black eyes)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

 

[ether^O^]

actually, he is correct. Phenotypically asians are closer to white people than those other groups. That's why many asians are considered caucasian.. or caucazoids. Much of the phenotye similarites have to do with phrenology, skull structure, etc.

"It is currently often used in the US as a general term for "white", and used by many physical anthropologists to refer to people of European origin. However, the so-called Caucasians can range from light-"white"-skin (with blond hair and blue eyes) to dark-brown-skin (with black hair and black eyes)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

Um...first of all, you do understand that Latinos are mixed between Native Americans and Spanish people, right? That would make them part European and be very similar to europeans both genetically and phenotypically. Secondly, if you're talking about SOUTH Asians, yes they are very similar genetically to whites. But East Asians are as distinct from Europeans as you can get. We look nothing like white people and receive just as much discrimination as blacks. Take an Asian Am. history course before you argue with me.

 

[acrobat]

Asians are improperly grouped with the evil white man.

We need to change the system so it's whites on one side vs. every the other races who get bonus points.

 

[ether^O^]

Asians are improperly grouped with the evil white man.

We need to change the system so it's whites on one side vs. every the other races who get bonus points.

 

[Julius Erving]

Um...first of all, you do understand that Latinos are mixed between Native Americans and Spanish people, right? That would make them part European and be very similar to europeans both genetically and phenotypically. Secondly, if you're talking about SOUTH Asians, yes they are very similar genetically to whites. But East Asians are as distinct from Europeans as you can get. We look nothing like white people and receive just as much discrimination as blacks. Take an Asian Am. history course before you argue with me.

well son, south asia is asia too. you say take asian am history which really means nothing to me. Say take East-Asian Cultures if that's what you mean. Being american really has nothing to do with it, and like you said, South, Central, and West asian are considered caucasian. So while maybe your little subgroup isn't, you need to put this in perspective and realize that the world doesn't revolve around you.

i hate it when east asians go manifest destiny and claim all of asia as east asia. Indians are asian too.. russia as well.. arabs as well... So if you mean east asian, say east asian and don't start a racial arguement where their needn't be one.

 

[1Path]

Oh really?? So I should assume this is the first hospital in the history of the United States to have closed- or maybe all black run hospitals are closed? You seem to be some kind of ignorant..

In the 4 years I have been an SDN member, I am continually amazed at the level of ignorance and racism shown on this site and it seems to get worse as time goes on.

MLK hospital wasn't in danger of being recenly closed at all, it was the trauma ward that was closed. https://www.pww.org/article/articleprint/7530
But I certainly understand how much easy it is for SOME people to distort the truth to make points especially against affirmative action. And to CaramelDlite's point, trying to function will fewer funds WILL at some point affect patient care which should be a pretty logical conclusion for an open minded person to draw.
So while we're talking about, if having accreditation at risk makes for a hospital with poor patient care with administrators that don't know what they're doing, then you'd better add JOHNS HOPKINS to that list of poor hospitals too.

 

[Hard24Get]

If you can list, say, 3 "unique factors" that African-Americans, um, 'endure' that are the sole products of 'oppression', I might believe you. Present oppression, mind you, don't tell me they live on plantations

Until then,

Ok, since no one is actually going to check the history books, I think it is important to point out a few things to the "plantation" folks. The parents of any blacks/URMs in medical school TODAY were schooled under segregation. So, it's really only this generation that CAN go to the same schools and thus go to any college. Consquently, there is a much higher proportion that still lives in the neighborhoods they were FORCED to live not long ago.

This also means that the people who were allowed to openly discriminate against them growing up are still in positions of power today. Also, no schools are REQUIRED to use AA, they are only required to be equal opportunity. So here are 3:

1) Segregation, which affected the educational and job opportunities of the parents of today's applicants
2) Medical distrust incidents such as Tuskegee/syphillis, the fear of which minority parents still raise their kids on today
3) Racism TODAY among people in positions of power:
Beagan BL.'Is this worth getting into a big fuss over?' Everyday racism in medical school.Med Educ. 2003 Oct;37(10):852-60.
PMID: 12974838
2: Robb N. Racism can rear its ugly head at medical school, study finds.
CMAJ. 1998 Jul 14;159(1):66-7. PMID: 9679492

I say this not because I want to debate AA, but because ignorance irritates me.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Um...first of all, you do understand that Latinos are mixed between Native Americans and Spanish people, right? That would make them part European and be very similar to europeans both genetically and phenotypically. Secondly, if you're talking about SOUTH Asians, yes they are very similar genetically to whites. But East Asians are as distinct from Europeans as you can get. We look nothing like white people and receive just as much discrimination as blacks. Take an Asian Am. history course before you argue with me.

Hey did you know that "In Jim Crow era Mississippi, however, Chinese American children were allowed to attend Whites-only schools and universities, rather than attend segregated Black-only schools, and some of their parents became members of the infamous Mississippi "White Citizens' Council" who enforced anti-Black racism and Black segregation."[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American

 

[Julius Erving]

Ok, since no one is actually going to check the history books, I think it is important to point out a few things to the "plantation" folks. The parents of any blacks/URMs in medical school TODAY were schooled under segregation. So, it's really only this generation that CAN go to the same schools and thus go to any college. Consquently, there is a much higher proportion that still lives in the neighborhoods they were FORCED to live not long ago.

This also means that the people who were allowed to openly discriminate against them growing up are still in positions of power today. Also, no schools are REQUIRED to use AA, they are only required to be equal opportunity. So here are 3:

1) Segregation, which affected the educational and job opportunities of the parents of today's applicants
2) Medical distrust incidents such as Tuskegee/syphillis, the fear of which minority parents still raise their kids on today
3) Racism TODAY among people in positions of power:
Beagan BL.'Is this worth getting into a big fuss over?' Everyday racism in medical school.Med Educ. 2003 Oct;37(10):852-60.
PMID: 12974838
2: Robb N. Racism can rear its ugly head at medical school, study finds.
CMAJ. 1998 Jul 14;159(1):66-7. PMID: 9679492

I say this not because I want to debate AA, but because ignorance irritates me.

I think the current URM system, while theoretically good, creates even more racism. First, look at this thread. Second, if less qualified (stats/grades wise) applicants are let into a school, it could be safe to say they will get lower grades in med school as well. Now if the lower 20% of your class in academics are all URMs... it will perpetuate the stereotype that URMs are underqualified or not as intelligent.

So while it may be good for URMs and their communities, i think the system as it is increases majority-URM tensions..

 

[ether^O^]

In the 4 years I have been an SDN member, I am continually amazed at the level of ignorance and racism shown on this site and it seems to get worse as time goes on.

MLK hospital wasn't in danger of being recenly closed at all, it was the trauma ward that was closed. https://www.pww.org/article/articleprint/7530
But I certainly understand how much easy it is for SOME people to distort the truth to make points especially against affirmative action. And to CaramelDlite's point, trying to function will fewer funds WILL at some point affect patient care which should be a pretty logical conclusion for an open minded person to draw.
So while we're talking about, if having accreditation at risk makes for a hospital with poor patient care with administrators that don't know what they're doing, then you'd better add JOHNS HOPKINS to that list of poor hospitals too.

Why is everything about funding? How come no one talks about how the schools kids living in Chinatown go to receive probably as much funding as schools in he bad parts of Oakland, yet some of these kids still make it out and go to good colleges? Although they face huge odds due to the language barrier, their skin color, etc., a higher proportion of them (which still isn't high) go to good colleges. I think what's more important than funding is the desire to do well. Whereas black culture puts rappers, bballers, etc. on a pedestal, Asians put doctors, lawyers, & engineers at the top of their goals.

And I also wonder why some URMs even want AA. It's degrading. It's like receiving hand-outs. But then again, having lived in Oakland and doing community service there, I very rarely saw Asians and Hispanics receiving handouts. The majority of them were black...and many of them able bodied. If you go to Asia, the only people who are bums are people who physically CAN'T work (i.e. disablity). It's pretty sickening how some people (not all, obviously) in America beg for government support and $ from people when they can just get a job.

 

[hucm2009]

Whoa. Those are incredbly fuzzy studies undertaken by people who wanted to prove their hypothesis to grind an axe here or there. In other words, do you think they'd ever come out and say, "Well, we looked at it and the disparities in health care have nothing to do with race. Sorry. have a nice day?"

The axe they want to grind is coming up with a new justifications for affirmative action now that the racism of the Jim Crow days is fading from generational memory.

There are many reasons not to do bypass surgery including ability to pay the surgeon, comorbidities, proximity to a hospital that will perform a CABG, and cultural preferences of the patient, none of which have anything to do with racism on the part of the doctor and would not be effected by his race either.

You want it both ways. On one hand patients need to be treated by doctors of their own race, on the other hand if I built a Whites Only hospital with all white doctors, nurses, and patients you'd be on me like piss on a bum's shoe.

Wow, you are ignorant. And racist. There is a large difference b/w the health disparities that are obviously there today and building a whites only hospital, and just the suggestion of that shows where your mindset is at. Its funny how you can deny the numerous studies done by many different people on these things, just because you refuse to believe that this happens. Well I provided the studies, my view point is from fact, not something made up, like yours.

 

[hucm2009]

Why is everything about funding? How come no one talks about how the schools kids living in Chinatown go to receive probably as much funding as schools in he bad parts of Oakland, yet some of these kids still make it out and go to good colleges? Although they face huge odds due to the language barrier, their skin color, etc., a higher proportion of them (which still isn't high) go to good colleges. I think what's more important than funding is the desire to do well. Whereas black culture puts rappers, bballers, etc. on a pedestal, Asians put doctors, lawyers, & engineers at the top of their goals.

And I also wonder why some URMs even want AA. It's degrading. It's like receiving hand-outs. But then again, having lived in Oakland and doing community service there, I very rarely saw Asians and Hispanics receiving handouts. The majority of them were black...and many of them able bodied. If you go to Asia, the only people who are bums are people who physically CAN'T work (i.e. disablity). It's pretty sickening how some people (not all, obviously) in America beg for government support and $ from people when they can just get a job.

Read my first post for the reason race is considered in the application process. It really has nothing to do with getting handouts or righting injustices from the past.

 

[Julius Erving]

URMs are given advantages b/c the medical community directed toward those ethnicities are underrepresented. Whether than means no doctors want to go to latino/black communites... or not enough researchers who aim to curtail associated diseases.

If i were to research a disease, it'd be parkinsons... which disproportionately affects whites. This isn't b/c im white, but b/c what my relatives/friends (i grew up in predominately white central illinois) had. Of course it piqued my interest.. but i suppose if all my friends had sickle cell i may be more interested in that right now.

 

[CaramelDlite]

Why is everything about funding? How come no one talks about how the schools kids living in Chinatown go to receive probably as much funding as schools in he bad parts of Oakland, yet some of these kids still make it out and go to good colleges? Although they face huge odds due to the language barrier, their skin color, etc., a higher proportion of them (which still isn't high) go to good colleges. I think what's more important than funding is the desire to do well. Whereas black culture puts rappers, bballers, etc. on a pedestal, Asians put doctors, lawyers, & engineers at the top of their goals.

I can somewhat agree with the last part of this statement. I've worked for years in inner city public schools and most black kids aspire to work in some sector of the entertainment industry (whether it be athletics, or music). Unfortunately, that is the only real image of black success they have seen. I assume it would be equivalent to an Asian child saying he wants to grow up to be a rapper- it seems far fetched when there are virtually none. It seems equally impossible to the average black fifth grader who has never seen a black doctor (I met my first one at 20), to pursue a career in medicine, especially when parents attempt to quell potential disappointment by not encouraging them to pursue it either. It's even more of a reason to educate black doctors so that such a goal becomes more of a reality for these youth.

 

[Hard24Get]

I think the current URM system, while theoretically good, creates even more racism. First, look at this thread. Second, if less qualified (stats/grades wise) applicants are let into a school, it could be safe to say they will get lower grades in med school as well. Now if the lower 20% of your class in academics are all URMs... it will perpetuate the stereotype that URMs are underqualified or not as intelligent.

So while it may be good for URMs and their communities, i think the system as it is increases majority-URM tensions..

Nobody said the current system was good. Also, I think you will note that the differences in GPA/MCAT, at least in the top schools, is tiny if existent, and certainly the URMs are indistinguishable performace-wise (although no one knows who is at the bottom of the class, we know who matches where, and ERAS apps don't even require race).

The system does increase majority-URM tensions, but that is saying much. Abolition and desegregation also increased majority-URM tensions ....

 

[PHD_2007]

I urge the Admin to please close this thread!!! These issues serve only to anger and insult people of all races. We are all on SDN because we want to become physicians and help to provide healthcare to all people regardless of their race. Enough with the history lessons and the "who has had the roughest time in America" stories. If you are committed to being a doctor then make the grades, get the MCAT scores, work in the community, and pursue your dreams!!!!! Let's get it together here folks!!!!!!! United WE Stand, Divided We WILL Fall!!!!

~ PhD 2007 African American, Native American
Driven to be a physician-scientist

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Hey did you know that "In Jim Crow era Mississippi, however, Chinese American children were allowed to attend Whites-only schools and universities, rather than attend segregated Black-only schools, and some of their parents became members of the infamous Mississippi "White Citizens' Council" who enforced anti-Black racism and Black segregation."[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American

no response ether??

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

I urge the Admin to please close this thread!!! These issues serve only to anger and insult people of all races. We are all on SDN because we want to become physicians and help to provide healthcare to all people regardless of their race. Enough with the history lessons and the "who has had the roughest time in America" stories. If you are committed to being a doctor then make the grades, get the MCAT scores, work in the community, and pursue your dreams!!!!! Let's get it together here folks!!!!!!! United WE Stand, Divided We WILL Fall!!!!

~ PhD 2007 African American, Native American
Driven to be a physician-scientist

haahha nice work... These threads are comical, that is why I post in them...

 

[ether^O^]

Hey did you know that "In Jim Crow era Mississippi, however, Chinese American children were allowed to attend Whites-only schools and universities, rather than attend segregated Black-only schools, and some of their parents became members of the infamous Mississippi "White Citizens' Council" who enforced anti-Black racism and Black segregation."[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American

Hm...I wonder how many Chinese were actually on that council...

Did you know that during the 1992 LA riots, almost all Korean-American owned stores/buildings were burned to the ground? Blacks TARGETED Koreans Americans in the riots, while the police (predominantly white) sat by and watched. The Koreans were forced to defend themselves. After the riots, the Koreans got NO reparations or $ from the government for what happened, and only a few blacks who took part in destroying Korean property were charged with crimes. That's why many Korean Americans went back to Korea; their lives were ruined by the LA riots.

This racial tension bullcrap between the minorities in the US is BS. We should unite and fight the Man. It's worthless laws like AA that keep this **** up. What URMs don't understand is its just white people's way to look like they're doing something about the economic divide between URMs and whites, while nothing is really happening. The root of the problem is still unattended to.

 

[acrobat]

"If you are committed to being a doctor then make the grades, get the MCAT scores, work in the community, and pursue your dreams!!!!! Let's get it together here folks!!!!!!! United WE Stand, Divided We WILL Fall!!!!"

Ah you seek censorship. A.A. divides America into interest groups- the opposite of unity. Some of the Asians on this thread have become angry because they haven't been included in the harvest.

 

[Hard24Get]

This racial tension bullcrap between the minorities in the US is BS. We should unite and fight the Man. It's crap laws like AA that keep this crap up. What URMs don't understand is its just white people's way to look like they're doing something about the economic divide between URMs and whites, while nothing is really happening. The root of the problem is still unattended to.

For once I actually agree with you. AA is a crappy bandage on a much bigger wound. In the face of educational inequality, it is nothing. My only hope for it would be for it to allow opportunities for others to rise to power and effect real change - not just for classic URMs, but for everyone, regardless of race, religion, sexuality, etc.

Even caucasians have a "Man" to fight - not a human being, but the idea that we should be divided like this. So I propose we discuss how we can all improve the situation (equalizing the school system, etc), rather than fighting one another. Because we wouldn't be wasting our time on this thread if we were satisfied.

 

[LizzyM]

Some of the Asians on this thread have become angry because they haven't been included in the harvest.

In 2004, 45.9% percent of the non-Hispanic, Asian appliants who applied to medical school were admitted and matriculated. This looks like Asians are getting a fair shake in comparison with other groups.

In 2004, non-Hispanic Asian applicants made up 20% of the medical school matriculants. This is far in excess of the representation of Asians in the US population.

Please, no crying in your beer.

 

[Julius Erving]

What URMs don't understand is its just white people's way to look like they're doing something about the economic divide between URMs and whites, while nothing is really happening. The root of the problem is still unattended to.

how many people have to tell you it isn't about economics before you listen!?!? it is about serving communities. THAT IS WHAT DOCTORS DO! White and EAST asians... they don't voluntarily work (for the most part) in underserved areas. And if they do they expect loan forgiveness or scholarships. african americans will work in their communities most likely.. same with hispanics.

*sigh*

 

[Hard24Get]

I urge the Admin to please close this thread!!! These issues serve only to anger and insult people of all races. We are all on SDN because we want to become physicians and help to provide healthcare to all people regardless of their race. Enough with the history lessons and the "who has had the roughest time in America" stories. If you are committed to being a doctor then make the grades, get the MCAT scores, work in the community, and pursue your dreams!!!!! Let's get it together here folks!!!!!!! United WE Stand, Divided We WILL Fall!!!!

~ PhD 2007 African American, Native American
Driven to be a physician-scientist

I would argue that, thus far, the discussion has been relatively mild and therefore there is no need to close it. If we don't talk about these things, they will fester. The important thing is to keep the conversation CIVIL.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

For once I actually agree with you. AA is a crappy bandage on a much bigger wound. In the face of educational inequality, it is nothing. My only hope for it would be for it to allow opportunities for others to rise to power and effect real change - not just for classic URMs, but for everyone, regardless of race, religion, sexuality, etc.

Even caucasians have a "Man" to fight - not a human being, but the idea that we should be divided like this. So I propose we discuss how we can all improve the situation (equalizing the school system, etc), rather than fighting one another. Because we wouldn't be wasting our time on this thread if we were satisfied.

Word!

What gets on my nerves is that no one has any ideas on how to improve URM involvement in medicine... Many people just want the few opportunities canceled for their own self-interests

 

[acrobat]

" how many people have to tell you it isn't about economics before you listen!?!? it is about serving communities. THAT IS WHAT DOCTORS DO! White and EAST asians... they don't voluntarily work (for the most part) in underserved areas. And if they do they expect loan forgiveness or scholarships. african americans will work in their communities most likely.. same with hispanics.

*sigh*"


There is some good truth to this. The problem is on the whole this may be true, but you're not treating applicants as applicants, and instead grading them on skin color.

 

[ether^O^]

how many people have to tell you it isn't about economics before you listen!?!? it is about serving communities. THAT IS WHAT DOCTORS DO! White and EAST asians... they don't voluntarily work (for the most part) in underserved areas. And if they do they expect loan forgiveness or scholarships. african americans will work in their communities most likely.. same with hispanics.

*sigh*

I was actually wondering, since DO are also doctors, why don't more URMs apply for admission to DO schools? Their #s are lower, and they are still treated as doctors in the US. I think this is a much better way to increase enrollment of URMs in med schools and serving the underserved without tension.

 

[acrobat]

I'm not even necessarily against A.A. because I think we have to have black doctors, but at the same time there is something terribly wrong with the system especially on the level of treating people as color groupings and not as individuals applying....

I also find it ammusing some Asians feel left out.

 

[Hard24Get]

I'm not even necessarily against A.A. because I think we have to have black doctors, but at the same time there is something terribly wrong with the system especially on the level of treating people as color groupings and not as individuals applying....

I also find it ammusing some Asians feel left out.

ARGH, I was trying to get some common ground, here, but it is irritating that you think people are being treated as groups instead of individuals. Adcoms review each indiividuals packet just like everyone else's, and they take into account the TOTAL PACKAGE, not just race.

I'm telling you, most of us agree on some basics. Let's talk about how we as physicans can change social policy instead of arguing semantics. Please?

 

[notdeadyet]

Whereas black culture puts rappers, bballers, etc. on a pedestal, Asians put doctors, lawyers, & engineers at the top of their goals.

Maybe this is because there are too few black doctors, lawyers and engineers. Maybe because they are underrepresented. This is what affirmative action is trying to address.

If Asians dominated basketball or rap, you'd see a lot more Asian kids pining for this goal.

 

[Hard24Get]

Word!

What gets on my nerves is that no one has any ideas on how to improve URM involvement in medicine... Many people just want the few opportunities canceled for their own self-interests

Exactly. Everyone knows AA is not perfect - the disagreement is whether we should go without anything at all while we figure something else out. Sadly, I think URMs comprise the majority of those who care about REAL solutions. I wish the Asians, etc would talk about what problems they see for their people ad how to fix them instead just attacking AA. Surely AA cannot be their only hardship???

 

[acrobat]

"
ARGH, I was trying to get some common ground, here, but it is irritating that you think people are being treated as groups instead of individuals. Adcoms review each indiividuals packet just like everyone else's, and they take into account the TOTAL PACKAGE, not just race.

I'm telling you, most of us agree on some basics. Let's talk about how we as physicans can change social policy instead of arguing semantics. Please? "
---------------------------------------------
Well awarding points based on race is more than semantics....

The common ground is we need more black doctors.

The not so common ground is awarding points based on skin color and grouping people into groups, which is what you advocate. Yes they do look at the whole package, but a large part of that whole package is what group you get placed into. If we're not putting people into different groups based on skin color than what are we debating?

How about we kick the legacy kids out and let the minorities have their spots.

 

[FloridaMD]

I do not believe in quota system. Anyone, irrespective of race, with superior credentials should get preferential treatment. After all we deserve to have the best healthcare system. It is discouraging and unfair for anyone with superior credentials to be denied admission because the institution was looking for a particular race or color. I believe we will still get a very diverse and deserving population who will end up at medical schools.

 

[Hard24Get]

"


The not so common ground is awarding points based on skin color and grouping people into groups, which is what you advocate. Yes they do look at the whole package, but a large part of that whole package is what group you get placed into. If we're not putting people into different groups based on skin color than what are we debating?

Fisrt of all, you clearly don't know what I advocate, so don't put words in my mouth. Second of all, have you ever been on an adcom? Do you know how it works? Because I was on one for 2 years and am thus speaking out of experience. Since you are disagreeing with me, I'd like to know on what authority.

 

[Hard24Get]

I do not believe in quota system. Anyone, irrespective of race, with superior credentials should get preferential treatment. After all we deserve to have the best healthcare system. It is discouraging and unfair for anyone with superior credentials to be denied admission because the institution was looking for a particular race or color. I believe we will still get a very diverse and deserving population who will end up at medical schools.

What quota are you referring to?

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

I do not believe in quota system. Anyone, irrespective of race, with superior credentials should get preferential treatment. After all we deserve to have the best healthcare system. It is discouraging and unfair for anyone with superior credentials to be denied admission because the institution was looking for a particular race or color. I believe we will still get a very diverse and deserving population who will end up at medical schools.

Point 1: we don't have a quota system!!
Point 2: should someone with a 4.0 and 37 complain if a school takes someone of the same race with a 3.9 and 35 over them??