Amazing URM fact-oid

[Julius Erving]

I was actually wondering, since DO are also doctors, why don't more URMs apply for admission to DO schools? Their #s are lower, and they are still treated as doctors in the US. I think this is a much better way to increase enrollment of URMs in med schools and serving the underserved without tension.

i think the main area you see major URMs is research actually. as far as Primary care, i think they value URMs less, b/c like you said, they can go DO pretty easily. But the Harvards and WashUs and Yales that get all the research dollars... well most of it goes to helping what the researchers want to help. if the researchers are interested in curing "White person disease A, B, C, and D" because that is what has affected their lifes thru disease of community and relatives, then that's what will be researched.

However if the top researchers are indicative of overall American cultural/ethnic population, then more representative research can occur.

But yeah, I think PC values URMs less... at least I would hope, cuz like you said, makes little difference in # of practicing docs.

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[FloridaMD]

Point 1: we don't have a quota system!!
Point 2: should someone with a 4.0 and 37 complain if a school takes someone of the same race with a 3.9 and 35 over them??

Here is definition quota from Merriam-Webster Dictionary,

"a fixed number or percentage of minority group members or women needed to meet the requirements of affirmative action"

 

[acrobat]

anymore, but now we just use a hazy quota system that is opaque and secretive.

Like I said I'm not sure if I'm against the current system or the quota system because we need more minorities.

But there is no doubt that the system is seriously unfair at the same time to anyone but the most devoted partisan lefty. You're awarding points based on race instead of looking at people as individuals with an equal chance of admittance, which if it was being done in the reverse direction would be looked at with anger.

----------------

"Fisrt of all, you clearly don't know what I advocate, so don't put words in my mouth. Second of all, have you ever been on an adcom? Do you know how it works? Because I was on one for 2 years and am thus speaking out of experience. Since you are disagreeing with me, I'd like to know on what authority."


I responded to your quote rather than putting words in your mouth.
here is your quote

"
ARGH, I was trying to get some common ground, here, but it is irritating that you think people are being treated as groups instead of individuals. Adcoms review each indiividuals packet just like everyone else's, and they take into account the TOTAL PACKAGE, not just race.

I'm telling you, most of us agree on some basics. Let's talk about how we as physicans can change social policy instead of arguing semantics. Please? "
"

In your quote, you acknowledged that you are taking into account race. That's all I was saying is that you're grouping and awarding extra points for race while also looking at individual factors.

 

[CaramelDlite]

Here is definition quota from Merriam-Webster Dictionary,

"a fixed number or percentage of minority group members or women needed to meet the requirements of affirmative action"

Ummm okay. And no school in the United States is allowed to have a fixed number of minorities or women to admit every year. Its still based on quality of applicants. No school aims to admit 15 (or X) minorities regardless of quality. Many schools still have 0 URMs, and many more admit only a handful a year, much less than could ever satisfy an equal representation requirement. Also, according to AAMC statistics, the percentage of blacks accepted to medical school is still overall LOWER than the percentage of applicants overall, and thats with a decline in the number of black applicants. Again I urge people to open up a history book and turn to California, mid-70's. It's called a precedent, and it was set. Geez Louise.....

 

[Hard24Get]

In your quote, you acknowledged that you are taking into account race. That's all I was saying is that you're grouping and awarding extra points for race while also looking at individual factors.

Adcoms do take race into account of course (though at my school not in any quantifiable way such as points), but I didn't say I ADVOCATED it. The only thing I advocate is BASELINE equality. I think everyone should be going to the same quality of schools from "pre-school" on up. Those pre-college years in the public school system are unbelievably critical to success, and it is ridiculous to me that these disparities have not been corrected.

I don't believe anyone can argue that there is a racial bias in socioeconomic disparities that impacts the educational baseline, and that if everyone had the same opportunities from the get-go then Johnny-come-lately ideas such as AA would be laughable. So I advocate for the absence of socioeconomic bias in our school system, in part through equal distribution of funds. You didn't ask, but that is what I advocate.

 

[acrobat]

"I don't believe anyone can argue that there is a racial bias in socioeconomic disparities that impacts the educational baseline, and that if everyone had the same opportunities from the get-go then Johnny-come-lately ideas such as AA would be laughable. So I advocate for the absence of socioeconomic bias in our school system, in part through equal distribution of funds. You didn't ask, but that is what I advocate."



this part "that if everyone had the same opportunities from the get-go then "

You've just made the case for giving points for socio-economic conditions but not fore race yet. There are plenty of poor whites and Asians. You're back to Christian's sad argument for A.A.

The only argument for A.A. in my mind is simply because we need more black doctors, which is true. A.A. accomplishes this, a good thing, at the cost of creating an unjust system and infuriates many.

I'm still on the whole probably in favor of A.A. because of the need for more black doctors, but the system is at the same time grossly unfair and un-American.

 

[ether^O^]

"I don't believe anyone can argue that there is a racial bias in socioeconomic disparities that impacts the educational baseline, and that if everyone had the same opportunities from the get-go then Johnny-come-lately ideas such as AA would be laughable. So I advocate for the absence of socioeconomic bias in our school system, in part through equal distribution of funds. You didn't ask, but that is what I advocate."



this part "that if everyone had the same opportunities from the get-go then "

You've just made the case for giving points for socio-economic conditions but not fore race yet. There are plenty of poor whites and Asians. You're back to Christian's sad argument for A.A.

The only argument for A.A. in my mind is simply because we need more black doctors, which is true. A.A. accomplishes this, a good thing, at the cost of creating an unjust system and infuriates many.

I’m still on the whole probably in favor of A.A. because of the need for more black doctors, but the system is at the same time grossly unfair and un-American.

Can't we accomplish this by having more black applicants to DO rather than MD programs?

 

[acrobat]

"Can't we accomplish this by having more black applicants to DO rather than MD programs?"

IDK, ya, but I also think having black M.D.'s as roles models is important. Like I said, I can see the reason for needing black doctors to treat black patients.

I'm sure D.O.'s are using the same policies to fill their roles with certain unofficial quotas already anyway.

Also, I'm not sure I like the idea of having all white M.D.'s because we've forced blacks into D.O. schools. Something about that strikes me as wrong lol

 

[Hard24Get]

this part "that if everyone had the same opportunities from the get-go then "

You've just made the case for giving points for socio-economic conditions but not fore race yet. There are plenty of poor whites and Asians. You're back to Christian's sad argument for A.A.

The only argument for A.A. in my mind is simply because we need more black doctors, which is true. A.A. accomplishes this, a good thing, at the cost of creating an unjust system and infuriates many.

I’m still on the whole probably in favor of A.A. because of the need for more black doctors, but the system is at the same time grossly unfair and un-American.

Once again. I am not arguing for AA. I am arguing for other changes. The only part of AA that makes sense is indeed what you said, that we simply need more URMs. The reason we do is because of racial inequality, which allowed for the development of disparate socioeconomic disadvantages and the surreptitious perpetuation of discrimination. Even admitting people on the basis of low socioeconomic status won't help half as much as making things equal from the beginning. Remember that I was the person who wanted to turn this into a constructive argument and that I am NOT debating AA, but rather trying to rally up a real solution.

 

[Hard24Get]

Also, I'm not sure I like the idea of having all white M.D.'s because we've forced blacks into D.O. schools. Something about that strikes me as wrong lol

Wouldn't happen anyway. Believe it or not, there are "qualified" blacks. Also, remember that this is not just a black and white issue - many other races have a stake in this.

 

[FloridaMD]

I need statistics for this. I think people tend to focus too much on anecdotal evidence and emphasize miniscule issues to make it seem like the intended purpose is somehow overshadowed by such an issue. Based on what you say...I am coming to the conclusion that you think priviledged minorities benefit more so that underpriviledged minorities who go to college.

Do I think there are flaws in the current system? Of course...but I also think that one would be able to find flaws in the system that you are promoting.

I come from an upper middle class afr. amer. family...so technically I should not reap the benefits of so called "aa"...however, I do know that I am more likely than you to work in an underserved community (which are definitely my plans by the way).

I seriously thought you were from Rice University!