AMCAS GPA calculations -- inaccurate?

[CanDoIt66]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I have a quick question about the way AMCAS calculates grades.

In a large applicant pool, why have medical schools decided to equally evaluate +/- students vs 4 point scale students? There seems to be a large discrepancy between these grading scales and the AMCAS app does nothing to equate for it.

For example, a B earned at a lower tiered state school is weighted more heavily than a B- at a top 25 school, even though the B student may have had a 79.75 bumped up to an 80 to get a B, whereas the B- student worked their ass off to get a 82.45, but was not fortunate enough to get to bump to a B.

How and in what world is it okay for intellectuals to think that measuring those two students on the same scale is an adequate form of comparison? It seems quasi antiquated, backwards, and not well thought out...

Shouldnt grades be standardized to compare students. I just dont think you can accurately compare students from a 4.0 scale to a +/- scale because there is no way to gauge a more indepth analysis of the 4.0 scale student. If a B is anywhere from a 80-90 then we cant tell if the student was good (B-), very good (B), or great (B+).

If AMCAS is going to continue to do this, why dont kids just go to 4.0 scale schools if they know their end goal is med school? no need to waste your time dying to get a B- or C+ or A- when you can just get the whole thing, at 3/4th the price. Especially if med schools ultimately dont give a damn where you went to school and only care about the GPA/MCAT thats on the piece of paper they read.

 

[justadream]

This is the purpose of the MCAT.

I'll give you an extreme example to illustrate that standardizing grades even across the same class taught by the same professor that is at the same school is already impossible.

Let's look at Intro Bio I that takes place at School X in both Fall and Spring Semesters. Both classes are taught by Dr. Smith.

You cannot even meaningfully compare these classes because of the following (among many) factors:
-Professor likely put different questions on the exams used by the two classes
-Professor may have covered more/less in one class. Professor may have used different wording to explain a concept which leads to different levels of understanding.
-Peer ability of the two classes differ. If the class is curved, well then it will be harder to do well in the "smarter class"
-What if there was an unexpected event one day (e.g., Fire Alarm) that disrupted class in the Fall but not in the Spring?
-What if the grading policy changed between the two classes? For example, exams might be worth 50% in one semester but 60% in another.
-What about the differences in TAs? Maybe in the first semester every TA was terrific but in the second, all were terrible.
-What about differences in school length? Maybe Fall semester has 1 more class than does Spring Semester

Now imagine trying to standardize grades across different schools (much less, different major/time period/instructor/etc)....

That would arguably he harder than curing cancer.

Thus, the MCAT is used. This is the entire purpose of standardized testing. You can actually compare MCAT scores in a meaningful and fair way.

 

[efle]

why dont kids just go to 4.0 scale schools if they know their end goal is med school?

Because there is as much punishment from the four point system as reward. Your A- gets treated like an A...but slip to B+ and it's treated like a full point drop to B.

So the +/- system is more fine grained, but neither is necessarily kinder. You only stand to benefit if you have significantly more A- grades than B+.

 

[BluMist]

that's some faulty assumptions/arguments

1. only comparing A to A-, B to B-. However, in the case of B vs B+, +/- wins against 4.0
2. you are assuming all state schools are 4.0 while "top 25" schools are +/-. In that case, you obviously should have had the foresight to pick the cheaper schools that have "easier" grading system. /s

 

[hopefulERdoc251]

I think it'd be the opposite actually. You would have a harder time standardizing applicants because the person who skeeted by with a 89.9 who got the 90% is not (at least in terms of grade wise), more knowledgeable than somebody who earned a 96% in the class and got a 4.0. Look @ it on the other extreme. Somebody who got a 79.9 who got a B- shouldn't be compared on the same level as somebody who got a 89.2 and got a B+. A 9% gap in grades is a substantial gap in knowledge imho

 

[CanDoIt66]

This is the purpose of the MCAT.

I'll give you an extreme example to illustrate that standardizing grades even across the same class taught by the same professor that is at the same school is already impossible.

Let's look at Intro Bio I that takes place at School X in both Fall and Spring Semesters. Both classes are taught by Dr. Smith.

You cannot even meaningfully compare these classes because of the following (among many) factors:
-Professor likely put different questions on the exams used by the two classes
-Professor may have covered more/less in one class. Professor may have used different wording to explain a concept which leads to different levels of understanding.
-Peer ability of the two classes differ. If the class is curved, well then it will be harder to do well in the "smarter class"
-What if there was an unexpected event one day (e.g., Fire Alarm) that disrupted class in the Fall but not in the Spring?
-What if the grading policy changed between the two classes? For example, exams might be worth 50% in one semester but 60% in another.
-What about the differences in TAs? Maybe in the first semester every TA was terrific but in the second, all were terrible.
-What about differences in school length? Maybe Fall semester has 1 more class than does Spring Semester

Now imagine trying to standardize grades across different schools (much less, different major/time period/instructor/etc)....

That would arguably he harder than curing cancer.

Thus, the MCAT is used. This is the entire purpose of standardized testing. You can actually compare MCAT scores in a meaningful and fair way.

But then when adcoms review applicants..like in this example:

Student A: 3.32/510
Student B: 3.59/510

Say student A got screwed over by some minus grades, but say student B got the benefit of the doubt and had some 79.5 and 89.5's rounded up B's and A's...is an Adcom factoring that in (where they went to school, grading scale) into their decisions. Honestly, it just doesnt seem like they get that indepth with their analysis. that would be too time consuming even tho thats vital information

 

[BluMist]

At that GPA range (3.3 - 3.6), you are actually more likely to have someone who got dinged by a 88 B (3.0) even though they could have salvaged a B+ (3.3) rather than A/A- scenario. Again, you are only looking at the A/A-, B/B-, type scenarios.

In case you need this spelled out:
Student A (4.0 system): 95, 88, 88 = A, B, B = 4 + 3 + 3 = 3.33 GPA
Student B (+/-): 95, 88, 88 = A, B+, B+ = 4 + 3.3 + 3.3 = 3.53 GPA

The point is you do not automatically benefit or from a 4.0 system. Instead of blaming the system, aim for higher grades.

But then when adcoms review applicants..like in this example:

Student A: 3.32/510
Student B: 3.59/510

Say student A got screwed over by some minus grades, but say student B got the benefit of the doubt and had some 79.5 and 89.5's rounded up B's and A's...is an Adcom factoring that in (where they went to school, grading scale) into their decisions. Honestly, it just doesnt seem like they get that indepth with their analysis. that would be too time consuming even tho thats vital information

 

[soadhead]

But then when adcoms review applicants..like in this example:

Student A: 3.32/510
Student B: 3.59/510

Say student A got screwed over by some minus grades, but say student B got the benefit of the doubt and had some 79.5 and 89.5's rounded up B's and A's...is an Adcom factoring that in (where they went to school, grading scale) into their decisions. Honestly, it just doesnt seem like they get that indepth with their analysis. that would be too time consuming even tho thats vital information

So do +/- schools not round their percentages. Also, it's unlikely that student B would always get some benefit from rounding up, but never a negative effect from the schools grading policy. It's probably a wash.

 

[justadream]

But then when adcoms review applicants..like in this example:

Student A: 3.32/510
Student B: 3.59/510

Say student A got screwed over by some minus grades, but say student B got the benefit of the doubt and had some 79.5 and 89.5's rounded up B's and A's...is an Adcom factoring that in (where they went to school, grading scale) into their decisions. Honestly, it just doesnt seem like they get that indepth with their analysis. that would be too time consuming even tho thats vital information

The following factors are much much more significant in my opinion when talking about issues with comparing grades:
- Topic of class (e.g., theoretical physics vs. nutrition)
- Peer ability (e.g., MIT vs. CC)

Also, as others have pointed out, lacking the +/- is actually NEUTRAL. Sometimes you will get the benefit (e.g., 91 becomes a 4.0 instead of 3.7) but other times you get screwed (e.g., 89 becomes a 3.0 instead 3.3).

Sometimes you get the short end of the stick and sometimes you get the longer end.

 

[mandym00]

I agree with some others and have thought about this myself too. Sure If I had gone to a school that used a (+/-) system all those B+s would 'help' me, but what about the times that I barely got that A- or B-. Then it would 'hurt' me. It goes both ways and I'm sure if you took my same grades now and moved it to a (+/-) the GPA difference would not be much. I don't think one system is better than the other, they are just different.

 

[CanDoIt66]

In a large applicant pool, it make average out and correct itself, but for some people, their academic records might show they got the longer or shorter end of the stick a majority of the time

 

[Goro]

In the end, people are responsible for their own destiny, and if they wanted better grades, they should have done better in the course. BTW, rounding is usually a faculty member's prerogative, not the school's. It depends upon what the course syllabus says.

In a large applicant pool, it make average out and correct itself, but for some people, their academic records might show they got the longer or shorter end of the stick a majority of the time

 

[efle]

In a large applicant pool, it make average out and correct itself, but for some people, their academic records might show they got the longer or shorter end of the stick a majority of the time

A typical degree consists of what, 35+ classes? Even within individuals that should land you at an average that does represent you well. It would be interesting though to see how much it shifted people to convert between scales!

 

[piii]

Typical top 25 student assuming that their "elite" school must always be harder than some low tier college. What a stupid naive ssumption.

 

[ifnotnowwren]

It would be interesting though to see how much it shifted people to convert between scales!

My school does +/- and I went from a 3.9 at my institution to a 3.83 on AMCAS which I thought was significant. I think in my case it was because I had a lot of A+s which balanced out some A-s and Bs at my institution.

Edit: Clarifying that this is a state school, that OP would probably classify as "low tier". It's not only "top schools" that do +/-. It's what you do with your education that matters, it's the opportunities that you take advantage of that matter, not where your school sits in a hierarchy. You can have all of the opportunities in the world at your fingertips and fritter them away at a top school.

 

[efle]

My school does +/- and I went from a 3.9 at my institution to a 3.83 on AMCAS which I thought was significant. I think in my case it was because I had a lot of A+s which balanced out some A-s and Bs at my institution.

Your school awards 4.33s for A+? You might be an outlier there, I think most places are similar to AMCAS and cap at 4.00

 

[ifnotnowwren]

Your school awards 4.33s for A+? You might be an outlier there, I think most places are similar to AMCAS and cap at 4.00

They award 4.33 for the semester grades but your cumulative gpa can't go above a 4.0. So my freshman year concluded with all As and A+s and my semester gpa read higher than 4.0, but my cumulative gpa stayed at 4.0. So based on that and what I saw on AMCAS, it seems like my institution factors the 4.33 into cumulative calculation but then does the cap at 4.0?

 

[piii]

They award 4.33 for the semester grades but your cumulative gpa can't go above a 4.0. So my freshman year concluded with all As and A+s and my semester gpa read higher than 4.0, but my cumulative gpa stayed at 4.0. So based on that and what I saw on AMCAS, it seems like my institution factors the 4.33 into cumulative calculation but then does the cap at 4.0?

It may seem like a loss, but you're GPA was always going to be the 3.83 on AMCAS, and everyone is graded on the same scale so it's entirely fair.

 

[ifnotnowwren]

It may seem like a loss, but you're GPA was always going to be the 3.83 on AMCAS, and everyone is graded on the same scale so it's entirely fair.

Oh definitely! I was just bummed haha.

 

[Glandzburg]

Want some cheese with that whine? I'm sensing you got the "short end of the stick." Study a little harder next time and the grading scale won't matter.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Calculate your grades using both ways of calculating it. I have and guess what! They are almost identical. No one is getting screwed here. Should have gone to the "easier" state school... Sarcasm..

 

[Goro]

Indeed. Someone with a 3.83, as compared to a 3.9 or even a 4.0, will still have a great shot at HMS or Stanford.

Calculate your grades using both ways of calculating it. I have and guess what! They are almost identical. No one is getting screwed here. Should have gone to the "easier" state school... Sarcasm..

 

[CanDoIt66]

Want some cheese with that whine? I'm sensing you got the "short end of the stick." Study a little harder next time and the grading scale won't matter.

I Studied my hardest, and sometimes my best was a B- or A-. I am not ashamed to admit that. Likes not perfect, if it were all of you would already be in med school.

Why should my 82.35 be ranked lower as a B-/2.7 than another kids 80.03 B/3.0. And why should a application service grade us on a system not all of us participate in?

 

[soadhead]

I Studied my hardest, and sometimes my best was a B- or A-. I am not ashamed to admit that. Likes not perfect, if it were all of you would already be in med school.

Why should my 82.35 be ranked lower as a B-/2.7 than another kids 80.03 B/3.0. And why should a application service grade us on a system not all of us participate in?

How do you know that somebody who got a 80.03 is getting a 3.0? Do you think that every school grades on a set scale like that? In one of my classes an 80% would have been closer to 2.0. In another it was around 3.5. Be the best you can be and you will get the grade you deserve.

 

[CanDoIt66]

At a school with a 4 point scale, a 80 is a 3.0, whereas at a +/- school, it is a 2.7

 

[Toutie]

At a school with a 4 point scale, a 80 is a 3.0, whereas at a +/- school, it is a 2.7

And in some schools... in some classes an 80 is an A+ and in some it's a D. Your point?

Don't worry about what you can't change. Worry about what you can change! YOUR grads.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I Studied my hardest, and sometimes my best was a B- or A-. I am not ashamed to admit that. Likes not perfect, if it were all of you would already be in med school.

Why should my 82.35 be ranked lower as a B-/2.7 than another kids 80.03 B/3.0. And why should a application service grade us on a system not all of us participate in?

Because your 90% is given a 4.0 instead of a 3.7 like that other kid's 90% is. You are totally neglecting the balance factor. I am dead serious. Calculate your GPA using both grading systems and they will be very similar. Nobody is getting screwed here. I am not sure why you are so worked up about it. Unless there is some huge discrepancy between your GPAs in both systems then I don't see what the issue is. (Surprise! There won't be, it's impossible)

The only chance anyone has of being even slightly screwed over is if they literally got an 89% in every single class. Then they would have a 3.0 instead of a 3.3. And that is a very unlikely situation. And a 3.3 won't be getting you into an allopathic school unless everything else is absolutely outstanding.

 

[Glandzburg]

I Studied my hardest, and sometimes my best was a B- or A-. I am not ashamed to admit that. Likes not perfect, if it were all of you would already be in med school.

Why should my 82.35 be ranked lower as a B-/2.7 than another kids 80.03 B/3.0. And why should a application service grade us on a system not all of us participate in?

Ignoring your shoddy grammar, I am in medical school.

This thread really has no point except to complain, which isn't going to accomplish anything. The discrepancies you are complaining about actually end up giving some people a boost, so it all evens out anyway.

Do you know how long it takes AMCAS to verify everyone's GPA as it is? Weeks. It would take far longer if they tried to incorporate multiple grading systems.

 

[soadhead]

At a school with a 4 point scale, a 80 is a 3.0, whereas at a +/- school, it is a 2.7

No. Every school I've heard of allows professors to grade on a curve.

Edit: Also I've heard than an 85 is a 3.0, not a an 80. Regardless. You got the grade you deserved based on the work you did compared to the rest of the class.

 

[mistafab]

But then when adcoms review applicants..like in this example:

Student A: 3.32/510
Student B: 3.59/510

Say student A got screwed over by some minus grades, but say student B got the benefit of the doubt and had some 79.5 and 89.5's rounded up B's and A's...is an Adcom factoring that in (where they went to school, grading scale) into their decisions. Honestly, it just doesnt seem like they get that indepth with their analysis. that would be too time consuming even tho thats vital information

It is really not that vital.

I'll tell you the same thing I told students around me in undergrad who would beg for a single point or two difference on exam. Grades, like any statistic, reflect a pattern - not a single instance. Therefor, if you benefit here or there from some grade interpretation by AMCAS, it really doesn't matter, because the overall picture is more dependent on your consistent effort. Borderline folks just don't understand that if they actually put the right effort in, they wouldn't be borderline at all.

 

[claduva94]

A typical degree consists of what, 35+ classes? Even within individuals that should land you at an average that does represent you well. It would be interesting though to see how much it shifted people to convert between scales!

I think the swing for me ended up being about .07? Granted I had hardly any + grades so this number is probably atypically high.

 

[md-2020]

I also am one of those "live on the edge" students grade-wise. And yes, before you pull your "oh, but you probably didn't go to my elite top 25 school with +/- grading duuuuuude" logic, I did. But let's be real, OP. For every grade you got "cheated" out of, you probably have several more where you just barely made the cutoff. So seriously, STFU, look at your application, and figure out what you can do to get wherever it is you want to go.

Do I understand the feeling you're talking about? All too well. But you can't rationally expect to go 100 for 100 in edging out every single +/- cutoff.

 

[wholeheartedly]

As noted above, I've been graded in both systems and I've benefited from the switch btween +/- as often as I've been hurt by it. By the time you have enough credits for the degree, it's really a wash anyway.

Second, you can't assume schools scale things consistently within either the straight letter grade or +/- system.

Within the same school, I've had 95%, 92%, 87% all be the start of an A. At all of my schools the instructors can grade or curve the clasd however they want.

There's never going to be a truly "fair" way to compare people by grades, but I'm not sure what could done differently.

 

[CanDoIt66]

Thats funny, because at my +/- school I never had 1 professor change the grading scale. The grading scale was as stated on the syllabus (100-94 A, 93-90 A-, 89-87 B+,86-83 B, 82-80 B-, etc)

 

[efle]

Thats funny, because at my +/- school I never had 1 professor change the grading scale. The grading scale was as stated on the syllabus (100-94 A, 93-90 A-, 89-87 B+,86-83 B, 82-80 B-, etc)

Really, not a single curved class? Organic chem, biochem, etc?

 

[CanDoIt66]

Really, not a single curved class? Organic chem, biochem, etc?

I did not have 1 curved class at my top 50 school.

Didnt have one until grad school

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Really, not a single curved class? Organic chem, biochem, etc?

Yeah I highly doubt that. Often times the prof won't even say they are doing it, they just do it.

I did not have 1 curved class at my top 50 school.

Didnt have one until grad school

You keep bringing up the ranking of your school like we are supposed to care... 🙄 A lot of people on this site went to schools higher ranked than yours and talk about it far less. I would place a very large amount of money on the fact that some of your classes were curved.

 

[iBro]

I have a quick question about the way AMCAS calculates grades.

In a large applicant pool, why have medical schools decided to equally evaluate +/- students vs 4 point scale students? There seems to be a large discrepancy between these grading scales and the AMCAS app does nothing to equate for it.

For example, a B earned at a lower tiered state school is weighted more heavily than a B- at a top 25 school, even though the B student may have had a 79.75 bumped up to an 80 to get a B, whereas the B- student worked their ass off to get a 82.45, but was not fortunate enough to get to bump to a B.

How and in what world is it okay for intellectuals to think that measuring those two students on the same scale is an adequate form of comparison? It seems quasi antiquated, backwards, and not well thought out...

Shouldnt grades be standardized to compare students. I just dont think you can accurately compare students from a 4.0 scale to a +/- scale because there is no way to gauge a more indepth analysis of the 4.0 scale student. If a B is anywhere from a 80-90 then we cant tell if the student was good (B-), very good (B), or great (B+).

If AMCAS is going to continue to do this, why dont kids just go to 4.0 scale schools if they know their end goal is med school? no need to waste your time dying to get a B- or C+ or A- when you can just get the whole thing, at 3/4th the price. Especially if med schools ultimately dont give a damn where you went to school and only care about the GPA/MCAT thats on the piece of paper they read.

Someone is salty their freshman year isn't going so hot.

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk

 

[mistafab]

Yeah I highly doubt that. Often times the prof won't even say they are doing it, they just do it.



You keep bringing up the ranking of your school like we are supposed to care... 🙄 A lot of people on this site went to schools higher ranked than yours and talk about it far less. I would place a very large amount of money on the fact that some of your classes were curved.

Hehe - as a premed I doubt you have a very large amount of money.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Hehe - as a premed I doubt you have a very large amount of money.

Definitely a lot more than the average med student 😀

I would bet a very large amount of money that I don't have that they have had curved classes. That's how confident I am that I would win.

 

[entdreams47]

I have a quick question about the way AMCAS calculates grades.

In a large applicant pool, why have medical schools decided to equally evaluate +/- students vs 4 point scale students? There seems to be a large discrepancy between these grading scales and the AMCAS app does nothing to equate for it.

For example, a B earned at a lower tiered state school is weighted more heavily than a B- at a top 25 school, even though the B student may have had a 79.75 bumped up to an 80 to get a B, whereas the B- student worked their ass off to get a 82.45, but was not fortunate enough to get to bump to a B.

How and in what world is it okay for intellectuals to think that measuring those two students on the same scale is an adequate form of comparison? It seems quasi antiquated, backwards, and not well thought out...

Shouldnt grades be standardized to compare students. I just dont think you can accurately compare students from a 4.0 scale to a +/- scale because there is no way to gauge a more indepth analysis of the 4.0 scale student. If a B is anywhere from a 80-90 then we cant tell if the student was good (B-), very good (B), or great (B+).

If AMCAS is going to continue to do this, why dont kids just go to 4.0 scale schools if they know their end goal is med school? no need to waste your time dying to get a B- or C+ or A- when you can just get the whole thing, at 3/4th the price. Especially if med schools ultimately dont give a damn where you went to school and only care about the GPA/MCAT thats on the piece of paper they read.

THIS!!!!!!! SO frustrating UGH

 

[efle]

THIS!!!!!!! SO frustrating UGH

Why? You're punished as much as forgiven by swapping between the systems - doesn't help for your A- to be a 4.0 instead of 3.7, if another B+ is now a 3.0 instead of 3.3

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Why? You're punished as much as forgiven by swapping between the systems - doesn't help for your A- to be a 4.0 instead of 3.7, if another B+ is now a 3.0 instead of 3.3

I'm amazed how some people don't see this. Calculate your GPAs using both ways and they will end up very similar.

 

[BluMist]

You obviously don't understand the struggle of an A/A- student... /s

I'm amazed how some people don't see this. Calculate your GPAs using both ways and they will end up very similar.

 

[entdreams47]

Why? You're punished as much as forgiven by swapping between the systems - doesn't help for your A- to be a 4.0 instead of 3.7, if another B+ is now a 3.0 instead of 3.3

I wasnt referencing the plus minus system, was referencing the issue of grade inflation or lack of curves at certain schools compared to others.

 

[7331poas]

I wasnt referencing the plus minus system, was referencing the issue of grade inflation or lack of curves at certain schools compared to others.

It's my understanding that top schools rely exclusively on curves.

At many top schools the class is on a curve. Whereas at a non flagship state school the class will just be averaged at a 75 and that is it.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

It's my understanding that top schools rely exclusively on curves.

At many top schools the class is on a curve. Whereas at a non flagship state school the class will just be averaged at a 75 and that is it.

This is a massive generalization based on 0 evidence. It is also wrong.

Although I do agree that an A at MIT isnt the same as an A at Local U, thats why they have the MCAT.

 

[7331poas]

This is a massive generalization based on 0 evidence. It is also wrong.

Although I do agree that an A at MIT isnt the same as an A at Local U, thats why they have the MCAT.

Really? I have had many past discussions on this forums and people tell me the top schools typically put their grades on a curve. That's why it's difficult to get a good grade there.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Really? I have had many past discussions on this forums and people tell me the top schools typically put their grades on a curve. That's why it's difficult to get a good grade there.

Some schools use curves more than others, but there's as much variation among top schools as there is among community colleges. For example I went to Emory, which is generally regarded as a pretty tough school by most. But there was no systematic curving going on. Some departments allowed anything over an 85 to be an A, while others had a vicious curve allowing only the top 3% to get an A. Most just graded normally, though they set high expectations since the students were generally capable and competitive enough to achieve them.

I've heard horror stories of how Cornell curved the entire bio program to 3.0, or other stuff, but by and large I don't think that's the norm. Top schools are tough to compete at, don't get me wrong, but the reasons for it are much less clear cut. I believe that it's a mix of having smart/driven students who would do just about anything to get a good grade, combined with extremely intelligent professors who set very high expectations. Mix in that many of the students at a place like emory have access to way more resources in terms of free tutoring services & support systems, plus many are very wealthy and can afford private tutors and other advantages. So even if the class isn't curved, the drive of the students to succeed results in very challenging academic environments.

 

[7331poas]

Some schools use curves more than others, but there's as much variation among top schools as there is among community colleges. For example I went to Emory, which is generally regarded as a pretty tough school by most. But there was no systematic curving going on. Some departments allowed anything over an 85 to be an A, while others had a vicious curve allowing only the top 3% to get an A. Most just graded normally, though they set high expectations since the students were generally capable and competitive enough to achieve them.

I've heard horror stories of how Cornell curved the entire bio program to 3.0, or other stuff, but by and large I don't think that's the norm. Top schools are tough to compete at, don't get me wrong, but the reasons for it are much less clear cut. I believe that it's a mix of having smart/driven students who would do just about anything to get a good grade, combined with extremely intelligent professors who set very high expectations. Mix in that many of the students at a place like emory have access to way more resources in terms of free tutoring services & support systems, plus many are very wealthy and can afford private tutors and other advantages. So even if the class isn't curved, the drive of the students to succeed results in very challenging academic environments.

A curve to a 3.0 is amazing. That's an 80 lol.

Many of my CS classes are curved to a 70. Luckily the competition for A's isn't as strong since everyone knows they are gonna make good money regardless.