AMSA should change their name

[doc20]

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Well, for all who are interested, here are AMSA's new 4 goals:



I like how student well being encompasses saying no to pharm and a sentence on "helping students through the long process of . . . medical education" but apparently doesn't include anything about financing said education, interest rates, deferment, rising tution rates, etc. Grr.

Anyone running for an AMSA office with some actual concern for medical student issues (rather than just wanting to save the world)?

i am on AMSA eboard at my school i will definitely look into the feedback

 

[wanabdoc]

Their "priorities" page is sure to mention that they are very concerned with:

The priorities pages of any major organization is more for PR purposes than for actual constituents. Universal coverage and diversity look very good to everyone else (from AMSA.) However the real priorities are helping medical students, although I think the AMA does more lobbying.

For example, here is the drug lobby's mission:

"PhRMA's mission is winning advocacy for public policies that encourage the discovery of life-saving and life enhancing new medicines for patients by pharmaceutical/biotechnology research companies."

In reality it should read, "PhRMA's mission is winning pharmaceutical companies huge profits through soft money legislation" but this doesn't have the same heart-to-heart feel.

 

[deleted77919]

However the real priorities are helping medical students, although I think the AMA does more lobbying.

I haven't seen any of the results of AMSA lobbying to this effect, nor am I aware of any days they spent campaigning on the hill to fight for medical student loan issues.

I am aware of the time they spent on a retreat in the woods with a stone circle path and a wizard dressed in purple robes.

 

[wanabdoc]

I haven't seen any of the results of AMSA lobbying to this effect, nor am I aware of any days they spent campaigning on the hill to fight for medical student loan issues.

I am aware of the time they spent on a retreat in the woods with a stone circle path and a wizard dressed in purple robes.

There is an easy solution for this, write a proposal for your local AMSA representative to take back to Washington, or join AMSA yourself.

 

[med1]

AMSA is a huge dissapointment. The medical education system is highly inefficient (from undergrad ALL the way to fellowships) and a major reason that health care is so expensive in this country. There seem like a million issues that could be addressed in reforming medical education, but AMSA does not seem interested in this. I guess it wouldn't really help us anyway to make life easier for the next generation of doctors, our "competition".

Yes I realize that this post is overly negative and I'm sure AMSA does great work, but I do expect more from the overachievers in office.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Yes I realize that this post is overly negative and I'm sure AMSA does great work

No they don't.

 

[Gut Shot]

The medical education system is highly inefficient (from undergrad ALL the way to fellowships) and a major reason that health care is so expensive in this country.

Oh, I gotta see the dots get connected on this one.

 

[cfdavid]

There is an easy solution for this, write a proposal for your local AMSA representative to take back to Washington, or join AMSA yourself.

I understand this arguement, but it would take a LONG time to reverse the ongoing policies of AMSA per their website. So, while I generally agree with the "if you don't like it, get involved and fix it" idea, I think it's more useful to isolate a group that's gone "astray" in many ways. Just because they're the American Medical Students Association doesn't mean that they represent (or must represent) all American medical students. I'd be more inclined to simply NOT support (or join/fund) groups that I don't agree with in terms of their agenda.

 

[wanabdoc]

Yes I realize that this post is overly negative and I'm sure AMSA does great work, but I do expect more from the overachievers in office.

Like all true overachievers, they really only care about themselves and their own agenda. Much like real politicians 😉.

I'd be more inclined to simply NOT support (or join/fund) groups that I don't agree with in terms of their agenda.

Fragmentation of support is exactly what we don't need. There are a lot of problems, but they are the best we have.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Fragmentation of support is exactly what we don't need. There are a lot of problems, but they are the best we have.

Isn't this the kind of attitude that let the National Socialist Workers Party remained in power?

 

[cfdavid]

Like all true overachievers, they really only care about themselves and their own agenda. Much like real politicians 😉.



Fragmentation of support is exactly what we don't need. There are a lot of problems, but they are the best we have.

I understand the call for unity amongst physicians and physicians-to-be. But, AMSA isn't the right battle cry. I'll stick to the AMA which is much less idealistic.

 

[wanabdoc]

I understand the call for unity amongst physicians and physicians-to-be. But, AMSA isn't the right battle cry. I'll stick to the AMA which is much less idealistic.

I just misunderstood, yeah the AMA is better, but as a medical student you can support both.

 

[drfunktacular]

What I want to know is, when is AMA-MSS/AMSA/OSR/whoever else going to get rid of Step 2 CS?

They have a freaking WIZARD and still they can't do ANYTHING? 😕

 

[jdh71]

What I want to know is, when is AMA-MSS/AMSA/OSR/whoever else going to get rid of Step 2 CS?

They have a freaking WIZARD and still they can't do ANYTHING? 😕

CS is here to STAY - get used to it.

 

[ColinHay]

Fragmentation of support is exactly what we don't need. There are a lot of problems, but they are the best we have.

That's ironic - Fragmantation is how the AMSA came to be when they got pissed off at the AMA.

 

[wanabdoc]

That's ironic - Fragmantation is how the AMSA came to be when they got pissed off at the AMA.

I sounded contradictory:

From what I have seen they agree on most major issues, however the AMA is much more influential overall. What I meant was supporting or starting other groups opposed to or in direct competition with the AMA would be bad.

I guess AMSA is somewhat in competition, but only for medical students. They also liaison with the AMA, and supporting either organization does support medical student issues. At AMA meetings, they do talk about "what AMSA'a stance is" and I think vise versa. Usually they try to get along on the major ideas.

 

[med1]

Oh, I gotta see the dots get connected on this one.

Are you serious? Do I really need to explain the infinite number of ways an inefficient medical education system eventually leads to more expensive health care. (In the end SOMEONE always pays for economic inefficiency and that someone is the health care consumer and the physcians)

I am no expert on this but I am sure many others can give their two cents:
1. One( OF MANY) examples that could be done would be to have an education system would not require 4 years of undergraduate education. Reducing required undergraduate education would leave physicians in less debt and not waste the opportunity cost of 2 more years. Step 2 would be to open more medical schools and increase residency slots. Thus you have more physcians in the market which would drive down health care costs and physician salaries. This would be ok for the physicians because they finished medical school at the age of 24 and have less educational debt.

Lets face it every other country in the world graduates doctors in less time than the United States and they still have better health care.

This is just one example I'm sure everyone else here can contribute a way to make this archaic educational system better. This is what capitalism is suppost to do, it removes inefficiency which eventually saves everyone money.

 

[zinjanthropus]

1. there are no reputable peer-reviewed articles that demonstrate physician salary as a major contribution to health care costs. the consensus is that administrative costs and equipment redundancy make up the majority of excessive spending.

JAMA 290(6) pp. 798-805. August 2003.



2. undergraduate education serves a useful purpose in physician education. we need well rounded doctors, not technocrats. we need individuals from families of doctors to test their interests. Also, 4 years allows time for some maturity to take place and tests the individual's ability to function at a high level while maintaining mental health/wellness.

3. if you want to make medical education free or increase loan repayment programs, my debt will certainly thank you.

 

[RxnMan]

...I am no expert on this...

You're right. Because this statement:

...Lets face it every other country in the world graduates doctors in less time than the United States...

is false. The British system requires 5 years. Anecdotally, I've never met a MBBS who did less than 6. Add 2 more years for their clinical rotations.

 

[tulane06]

You're right. Because this statement:
is false. The British system requires 5 years. Anecdotally, I've never met a MBBS who did less than 6. Add 2 more years for their clinical rotations.

Yes, but British students enter medical school straight out of high school, whereas American students must participate in a pre-medical program that lasts four years. So, post-high school, it takes both American and British students at least eight years to become doctors.

 

[RxnMan]

Yes, but British students enter medical school straight out of high school, whereas American students must participate in a pre-medical program that lasts four years. So, post-high school, it takes both American and British students at least eight years to become doctors.

You're right. People graduate at roughly the same age in both systems. That was my point. Nobody gets out early, and med1's comment is (still) false.

By the way, Australia and several other countries use the British system, Canada's is like ours.

 

[med1]

Ok I don't have time to fully research this issue but I will add my two cents. I wish I had more time...,

1. Most other countries in the world graduate physician in less time than the United States and the FACT is that the British system is set up to graduate physicians in 7 years. (not our 8) The truth is almost every country above the US on the WHO rankings for health graduate doctors in less time.

2. My point is that our educational system is arachic and needs to be updated. Medicine has always resisted change. (Why has it taken so long for Health IT to develop compared to every other industrial sector?)

3. No, I do not believe that physician salaries are the leading cause for high health care cost, but they DO add to the cost of health care for patients.

Finally I through they ball back to you since you may have more free time. Please provide a solid argument why 4 years of undergraduate education are necessary. And please no assoteric nonsense...

 

[DwyaneWade]

Ok I don't have time to fully research this issue but I will add my two cents. I wish I had more time...,

1. Most other countries in the world graduate physician in less time than the United States and the FACT is that the British system is set up to graduate physicians in 7 years. (not our 8) The truth is almost every country above the US on the WHO rankings for health graduate doctors in less time.

2. My point is that our educational system is arachic and needs to be updated. Medicine has always resisted change. (Why has it taken so long for Health IT to develop compared to every other industrial sector?)

3. No, I do not believe that physician salaries are the leading cause for high health care cost, but they DO add to the cost of health care for patients.

Finally I through they ball back to you since you may have more free time. Please provide a solid argument why 4 years of undergraduate education are necessary. And please no assoteric nonsense...

I think there is a thread in pre-allo debating this final issue.

And surebreC...your avatar is making me really, really dizzy when I read this thread...

 

[RxnMan]

1. Most other countries in the world graduate physician in less time than the United States and the FACT is that the British system is set up to graduate physicians in 7 years. (not our 8) The truth is almost every country above the US on the WHO rankings for health graduate doctors in less time...

Dude, I just told you Brits train in the same overall time as us (and every country that doesn't use our system trains docs like the Brits). Saying that some graduate a year earlier is like saying most pre-meds matriculate after 3 years of undergrad. Sure it happens, but it's not the majority and putting it in caps doesn't make it so.

...2. My point is that our educational system is arachic and needs to be updated. Medicine has always resisted change. (Why has it taken so long for Health IT to develop compared to every other industrial sector?)...

I agree. But how does reducing training time help anything when you have medical knowledge increasing (at an increasing rate) daily? What do we cut out? I would advocate going to the British system - more medicine/science, and less fluff courses, but we'd have less "well rounded doctors" and we'd still be at 8 years to train...🙄

...Finally I throw they ball back to you since you may have more free time. Please provide a solid argument why 4 years of undergraduate education are necessary. And please no esoteric nonsense...

Fixed it for you. Or did you want to keep assoteric?

Look, cutting costs is something that has to be done. But at the medical education level? That's rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Fix med mal, allow docs to practice evidence-based medicine, and the costs of CYA medicine may fall. Detach insurance from employers. Allow patients to know what their hospital costs will be.

 

[Instatewaiter]

1. The truth is almost every country above the US on the WHO rankings for health graduate doctors in less time.


3. No, I do not believe that physician salaries are the leading cause for high health care cost, but they DO add to the cost of health care for patients.

Finally I through they ball back to you since you may have more free time. Please provide a solid argument why 4 years of undergraduate education are necessary. And please no assoteric nonsense...

1) First, a major criterion of the WHO rankings is equality of heathcare so of course we are going to be ranked pretty low b/c the rankings are not solely outcome but very politicized. Also as said before, shortening medical education will do nothing to curb costs

3) Cutting physicians salaries by 10 or 20% would be like trying to make cars cheaper by putting on cheaper tires. Sure it will help but there are more efficient ways to do it.