AMSA-What you should know ...

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the other Dr. said:
Older news but relevant to the point that Bush is driven by economic and political factors rather than social issues. I am a glad to hear that the steel industry is profiting through trade with a country that we have lambasted in the recent past for its totalitarian and anti-humanitarian regime.

As for the Middle East/oil dependency problem, as long as it profits Bush to mismanage that and associated industries, we will continue to pay through the nose for it while the environment suffers.

The problem with you is that there is no way you can win if you are not a liberal. If you impose tariffs on steele you are breaking international law, if you dont you are doing business with human rights abusers. If you impose sanctions on inhuman, totalitarian rulers you are killing children. If you lift sanctions and remove said dictator you are..."killing children and imposing US imperialism and an ethnocentric worldview on other people...man".
 
the other Dr. said:
It seems to me that AMSA's interest in any of the above issues pertains mainly to its support of a candidate who will, in turn, support the medical profession more profoundly than with tort reform. And obviously, candidates aren't elected on how they will benefit doctors, but on a variety of elements in their political platform, which directly or indirectly will have an impact on your future practive. I credit AMSA for considering aspects of a candidate outside what they have to offer to the pocketbooks of doctors.

Further, in most orgs, those in leadership make decisions based on what is best for and most representative of their members. If you feel AMSA doesn't do this, don't join. Plenty of other med students will, and they will be perfectly happy with their decision.

The membership of an organization should control the agenda of the organization. The idea that they "know better" than the membership is paternalistic, undemocratic and offensive to many who disagree with them. Why should people support an organization (any organization) they disagree with? And why should they assume that the leadership of that organization knows best whats for them? AMSA's support for socialized medicine would be terrible for medicine in the US, their actions AGAINST tort reform are directly antagonistic to physicians in general.

And all we are doing is offering an alternative (dare I say realistic?) view of AMSA's positions and how they affect prospective medical students or physicians. Everyone is certainly welcome to make their own choice, as a matter of fact you're the one who is arguing that dissenting opinions are bad.
 
Darko said:
The pre-allo SDN posters aren't the only ones who questioned AMSA's anti-states rights resolution. Looking at the resolution,

http://www.amsa.org/legislativecenter/B14AMSA_policy.pdf

5 of 10 Regions plus the International Caucus did not support it or voiced reservations concerning its relevance. I question why such a controversial resolution was jammed through with only 50% full support.

Sorry, but it looks like us lowly pre-meds really are representative of the AMSA general membership.

Yeah! listen to the person! look at the resolution, read the whole thing! Voicing reservation is highly different from NOT SUPPORTING something. Here's something directly from the document Darko links:
"All caucuses represented, the BOT, and all regions except one supported this resolution. One region expressed divided opinion on this resolution."
So, the reference committee decided to recommend the resolution be passed as they amended it (you can read about that in the link also). The house of delegates can't open unless they have a quorum, and 2/3 of that quorum must vote in favor of a resolution for it to pass. I don't know, do you think there's over 50% full support now?

Sorry, but it looks like us lowly pre-meds really are representative of the AMSA general membership.

seriously. I'm so tempted to not dignify this with a response. "lowly pre-meds"??? 3000+ "lowly pre-meds" ARE general AMSA members, and can be ex-oficio members of the house of delegates and board of trustees (BOT). Sharing the political views of any group does not make you representative of that group, that's not what I meant and that's not what I said. I seem to be the only AMSA member on the pre-allo SDN forum, therefore, pre-allo SDN posters, in general, are not representative of the AMSA general membership.

Liz
 
the other Dr. said:
Further, in most orgs, those in leadership make decisions based on what is best for and most representative of their members. If you feel AMSA doesn't do this, don't join. Plenty of other med students will, and they will be perfectly happy with their decision.


They will join because they don't understand what AMSA is about.
 
flighterdoc said:
The membership of an organization should control the agenda of the organization. The idea that they "know better" than the membership is paternalistic, undemocratic and offensive to many who disagree with them. Why should people support an organization (any organization) they disagree with? And why should they assume that the leadership of that organization knows best whats for them?

First, don't personally attack each other over such a ridiculous argument in the first place. I've said it, other's have said it - if you've got a problem with AMSA, try to change the way they do things or don't be a part of it.
s-i-m-p-l-e.

Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree with your statements above flighterdoc, and as I detailed before, I think AMSA does a good job of giving the membership control of the agenda. Every national leader was elected from the membership. Like I poured out earlier, the house of delegates is primarily filled with general member delegates, not leadership.

Liz
 
Hmmmmm......many people on here tend to lean toward Bush when it comes to economics and Kerry when it concerns social issues...hmmmmmmmm.....economically conservative socially liberal.......hmmmm...sounds like you need to vote libertarian.

AMSA blows. It's a bunch of hippie punks trying to save the world. Don't join for the "free" netters. You only give them $65 to advance their cause. It's a good gimmick to raise money from students who are entering med school and have no freaking clue what AMSA stands for. AMSA must be good right? It represents medical students. And damn it! I'm a med student. I have waited too freaking long to get here and I'm going to make sure that I join every club I can to show the world that I am a medical student.

I am sure there are many people out there who realize this after its too late and they received their Netters. However, they got a mult year membership from you in return.
 
Cerbernator said:
They will join because they don't understand what AMSA is about.

How is that AMSA's fault and/or responsibility?

Liz
 
shawred said:
Hmmmmm......many people on here tend to lean toward Bush when it comes to economics and Kerry when it concerns social issues...hmmmmmmmm.....economically conservative socially liberal.......hmmmm...sounds like you need to vote libertarian.

AMSA blows. It's a bunch of hippie punks trying to save the world. Don't join for the "free" netters. You only give them $65 to advance their cause. It's a good gimmick to raise money from students who are entering med school and have no freaking clue what AMSA stands for. AMSA must be good right? It represents medical students. And damn it! I'm a med student. I have waited too freaking long to get here and I'm going to make sure that I join every club I can to show the world that I am a medical student.

I am sure there are many people out there who realize this after its too late and they received their Netters. However, they got a mult year membership from you in return.

hmmmm....again, how is this AMSA's fault or responsibility? I'm not your Mother, it's not my job to make sure you know what your $65 is going towards, all you needed to do to figure it out was spend two minute perusing the website.

Liz
 
krebse said:
hmmmm....again, how is this AMSA's fault or responsibility? I'm not your Mother, it's not my job to make sure you know what your $65 is going towards, all you needed to do to figure it out was spend two minute perusing the website.

Liz


Or, two minutes reading alternative points of view on SDN.
 
flighterdoc said:
Or, two minutes reading alternative points of view on SDN.

why would you ever base your decision on someone else's opinion when you could base it on fact? Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems like reading an associations website would be a more reliable way of determining the nature of the association than reading other people's comments on it...

Liz
 
krebse said:
why would you ever base your decision on someone else's opinion when you could base it on fact? Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems like reading an associations website would be a more reliable way of determining the nature of the association than reading other people's comments on it...

Liz


Before I joined AMSA, I did spend some time reading the website. If the political agenda items I object to were listed, I didn't see them. And I spent more than 2 minutes, trying to figure out what it was worth to me.

And why does the potential for an "unofficial" viewpoint bother you? Both sides of the issue are being represented. Would you say that the only source for information for politics should come from www.whitehouse.gov?
 
flighterdoc said:
Or, two minutes reading alternative points of view on SDN.
Wait!! Our opinions don't count! Let the AMSA "leadership" pat us on the head and tell us what's good for us. 🙄
 
Cerbernator said:
no, our opinion is uniformed!!! 🙄


Glad to know that the paternalistic med students are watching out for us, then
 
shawred said:
Hmmmmm......many people on here tend to lean toward Bush when it comes to economics and Kerry when it concerns social issues...hmmmmmmmm.....economically conservative socially liberal.......hmmmm...sounds like you need to vote libertarian.


I was a Libertarian (card carrying, donated to the party, went to party events) for 10 years. After Sept 11, with the Libertarian position on National Defense I decided that I had to re-register.

And with that *****s (Badnarik?) position on Sept 11 (find out the person responsible and bring him to justice) I'm glad to be a member of the libertarian wing of the Republican party.

Giving the defense of the United States to the Libertarian Party is like giving whiskey and the detonator to a nuclear bomb to a chimpanzee. Whoops, thats what they're arguing for!
 
EvoDevo said:
Wait!! Our opinions don't count! Let the AMSA "leadership" pat us on the head and tell us what's good for us. 🙄


So, AMSA's agenda isn't socialized medicine, it's full-fledged communism?
 
krebse said:
why would you ever base your decision on someone else's opinion when you could base it on fact? Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems like reading an associations website would be a more reliable way of determining the nature of the association than reading other people's comments on it...

Liz
Hey Krebse, you seem to have a big problem with people questioning AMSA in public. You're also assuming that because people (like myself) question the focus of the organization that it's some sort of personal attack?

Also, I noted your statement on the listserv:

"yeah, I agree...I hope no one thinks I'm trying to
defend AMSA by painting it as not a liberal org - that
wasn't my intent, but it is true that the federal
marriage amendmant isn't the "top priority" like th
dude suggested..."

yeah, it is! You passed a resolution about it. It's featured prominently at the top of your Legislative Action Page. How is that not a "top priority"? It's listed above even the "Health Professions Education Programs" topic?????

🙄
 
Someone implied (and, it's worth noting, I don't think AMSA has disputed) that AMSA is liberal.

Someone implied (and I didn't hear any dispute so far) that AMA is conservative.

Then you could argue that liberal medical students turn in to conservative doctors. Extend this argument, and penniless medical students are liberal and looking for social programs. In contrast, wealthy (wealthier, anyhow) practicing physicians aim to protect their own bottom lines above social programs. "Someone should help the uninsured/disadvantage, but I can't afford it in my own practice."

If there is a philosophy major on this board, they could tear the logic and reasoning of that apart, I'm sure. I don't stand behind it myself, though I'm curious if there is any truth to it. At any rate, it was a fun exercise pop logic (as opposed to solid reasoning) 😀

Lighten up, people, or at least be civil.
 
EvoDevo said:
Hey Krebse, you seem to have a big problem with people questioning AMSA in public. You're also assuming that because people (like myself) question the focus of the organization that it's some sort of personal attack?

Also, I noted your statement on the listserv:

"yeah, I agree...I hope no one thinks I'm trying to
defend AMSA by painting it as not a liberal org - that
wasn't my intent, but it is true that the federal
marriage amendmant isn't the "top priority" like th
dude suggested..."

yeah, it is! You passed a resolution about it. It's featured prominently at the top of your Legislative Action Page. How is that not a "top priority"? It's listed above even the "Health Professions Education Programs" topic?????

🙄

yeah, that's it for me on this thread, I'll read, just no more replies...go ahead and send me PM's if you have more direct questions, but I'm tired of this...

Question AMSA, please, I fully support you - but why can't I respond to your questions? If you're saying something that's incorrect, like AMSA doesn't give it's members a way to determine it's policies, why can't I correct you? The borderline personal attacks weren't directed at me, I don't even know if you personally posted any, but comments like "you're out of your element" to people when they post their opinions are unnecessary and irrelevant.

As for the top priority deal, I don't know why it's at the top of the website. I don't know that anyone gave it a second thought. Maybe they should have, who knows, who cares, it's placement on a website. Passing a resolution on something doesn't make it a top priority. Here are all the other themes of resolutions that are now part of the constitution:

* Accreditation
* Activism
* Admission to Medical School
* Affirmative Action
* Aging
* Allied Health-Care Professionals and Personnel
* AMSA Policy Making
* Bioethics
* Campaign Finance and Elections
* Care of the Homeless and Indigent
* Child and Adolescent Health Care
* Civil Rights
* Complementary and Alternative Medicine
* Death and Dying
* Dietary Supplements
* Disabilities and Disabled Persons
* the Environment
* Financing of Medical Education
* the FDA's Prohibition on Men Who Have Sex With Men From Donating Blood Products
* Food Industry
* Food and Nutrition
* Foreign Medical Schools and Graduates
* Genetics
* Graduate Medical Education and Specialty Distributions
* Health-Care Delivery and Delivery Systems
* Health Disparities
* Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) and HIV-Related Illnesses
* Human Research Participants
* Human Rights
* International Health
* International Trade Agreements
* Legislative Concerns and Political Action
* Medicaid
* Medical Education?Curriculum Design and Content
* Medicare and Social Security
* Mental Health
* Minority Representation in Medical Schools
* Nonprofit Organizations
* Osteopathic Medicine
* Patients? Rights
* Pediatric Obesity
* Pharmaceuticals and Medical Devices
* Physician-Assisted Suicide
* Physician Competence
* Physician Impairment
* Physician Payment Reform
* Physician-Scientists
* Physicians and the Armed Forces
* Physician Unionization
* Policy on War and Military Action
* Poverty and Public Assistance
* Premedical Education
* Preventive Medicine and Public Health
* Primary Care and Family Practice
* Professionalism and Professional Liability
* Representation of Women in Medicine
* Research
* Residency Work Hours
* Service in Underserved Areas and Service Obligations
* Sex and Reproductive Rights
* Sexuality
* Student Health Services
* Student Rights and Responsibilities
* Terrorism
* Tuition
* Universal Health Care
* Use of Illegal Drugs, Alcohol and Tobacco
* Violations of Medical Neutrality
* Violence and Hate Crimes
* Vivisection in Medical Education
* War and Military Action
* Wellness of Medical Students and Housestaff
* Work and the Work Environment

Nobody but yourselves ever said your opinions didn't matter, but I will never understand how you can claim that going to the source is the best route of information getting. I don't know why you weren't able to determine AMSA's generally liberal agenda when you looked before joining, hopefully the website is more clearly structured now.

Liz
 
krebse said:
y
Nobody but yourselves ever said your opinions didn't matter, but I will never understand how you can claim that going to the source is the best route of information getting. I don't know why you weren't able to determine AMSA's generally liberal agenda when you looked before joining, hopefully the website is more clearly structured now.

Liz


Thats certainly the impression you left a lot of us with, questioning if SDN (or any other source) was a valid forum for finding out if AMSA is worthy of support.

You're the one who claimed that going to the source (AMSA) is the best route of information going. You haven't replied to my example, however, of going to whitehouse.gov for the BEST ROUTE of INFORMATION concerning politics and government. I guess that only applies to AMSA.

And, thanks to the clearly stated (now) agenda of AMSA, I won't be renewing my membership. AMA-MSS is the lesser of two evils, but at least they aren't working to damage my profession and nation.
 
flighterdoc said:
You're the one who claimed that going to the source (AMSA) is the best route of information going. You haven't replied to my example, however, of going to whitehouse.gov for the BEST ROUTE of INFORMATION concerning politics and government. I guess that only applies to AMSA.

Defending myself this time, not AMSA, and for the last time! What I said is that if you want to find out what AMSA is about, if you want information on AMSA (NOT information in general - i.e. AMSA's clearly biased towards single payer UHC, maybe you should find out about it on your own and then decide if you agree or not), then hit the site. Your example of going to whitehouse.gov for political information isn't relevant to what I was trying to say. A more relevant example would be something like if you wanted to know what the executive branch's role in the government is, go read whitehouse.gov, rather than an editorial in a newspaper. I'll try to be more clear next time.

Liz
 
krebse said:
Defending myself this time, not AMSA, and for the last time! What I said is that if you want to find out what AMSA is about, if you want information on AMSA (NOT information in general - i.e. AMSA's clearly biased towards single payer UHC, maybe you should find out about it on your own and then decide if you agree or not), then hit the site. Your example of going to whitehouse.gov for political information isn't relevant to what I was trying to say. A more relevant example would be something like if you wanted to know what the executive branch's role in the government is, go read whitehouse.gov, rather than an editorial in a newspaper. I'll try to be more clear next time.

Liz

Yes, you were not clear and I responded to EXACTLY what you said. BTW, I have found out about socialized medicine (by many different names) and I don't support it.

My example of going to whitehouse.gov for all sorts of information is valid. I wouldn't go to AMSA's website to learn about steel tariffs, yet they offer an opinion on it, and you stated that it's the best route for inforamtion. So too is whitehouse.gov for all sorts of things (by your implicit logic) not having to do with the executive branch of the government.

I'm sorry if showing the foolhardiness of your position is distressing to you.
 
Cerbernator said:
The problem with you is that there is no way you can win if you are not a liberal. If you impose tariffs on steele you are breaking international law, if you dont you are doing business with human rights abusers. If you impose sanctions on inhuman, totalitarian rulers you are killing children. If you lift sanctions and remove said dictator you are..."killing children and imposing US imperialism and an ethnocentric worldview on other people...man".

Congratulations on totally missing the point.
 
flighterdoc said:
And, you're the one who's intolerant of dissenting opinions. I offered my opinion of why I think AMSA is out of line, and you choose to question my qualification to have an opinion.

You use this argument in other forums when others expose the weakness or narrow-mindedness of your argument. Go ahead, have your opinion, I will give it the respect it is due but I will, of course, question the motives and background behind it in an effort to understand the rationale of your point of view. Once you play your trump card as you have just done, flighterdoc, it is pointless to have an exchange with you, as any further response is seen as invalidating your feelings. So sorry my humble posts questioned your qualification to have an opinion. I meant for them to question your qualification to be a good physician.

Have the last word, I'm out of this thread, as it has (and here I agree with you) gone beyond what pertains to medicine and medical education.
 
the other Dr. said:
You use this argument in other forums when others expose the weakness or narrow-mindedness of your argument. Go ahead, have your opinion, I will give it the respect it is due but I will, of course, question the motives and background behind it in an effort to understand the rationale of your point of view. Once you play your trump card as you have just done, flighterdoc, it is pointless to have an exchange with you, as any further response is seen as invalidating your feelings. So sorry my humble posts questioned your qualification to have an opinion. I meant for them to question your qualification to be a good physician.

Have the last word, I'm out of this thread, as it has (and here I agree with you) gone beyond what pertains to medicine and medical education.

You brought up the entire intolerance thread, champ. If you don't like the results of it, then try and find a better argument.

Once again, ad hominem instead of reason. No attempt to refute anything I've said, just personal attacks. And, the last cop-out, "I'm out of this thread" - because you can't make a point.

Here's a suggestion - if you don't like my posts, don't respond to them. Or, learn from them, your choice. At least have the courage to defend your own posts, preferably without resorting to personal attacks.
 
I thought duplicate posts were not allowed?

The "AMSA" debate is getting OLD... It gets recycled over and over - search for AMSA on the forum and you'll see we've already had this discussion over and over again.

You can't change someone's beliefs and ideology.

I just worry about the "innocent" pre-meds not getting all the facts. Just go to the organizations' websites to see for yourself.
 
flighterdoc said:
You brought up the entire intolerance thread, champ.

Please point out where. And do so, if possible, without taking statements out of context or making leaps of logic.


flighterdoc said:
If you don't like the results of it, then try and find a better argument.

I certainly don't like that my opinion of your opinion somehow translates to intolerance. I cannot productively argue with someone whose feelings are hurt by an opposing viewpoint. I could understand you becoming a little unglued if we were face to face, but on SDN you have time to read and digest anything you see on this thread, time to analyze the main point, and time to enter a reply (not to mention time to proofread what you type). After all this time, the best you have is "You're mean, leave me alone"?


flighterdoc said:
Once again, ad hominem instead of reason. No attempt to refute anything I've said, just personal attacks.

Once again, ad nauseum instead of substance. How can I refute your feelings and opinions or your decision to be a Republican or quit AMSA? It's your right to feel and act as you see fit. I can only offer my own opinions and the information behind them, (along with some personal attacks to "fight fire with fire"; your condescending attitude and self-righteousness are only thinly veiled by lame attempts at humor and humility, and your hypocrisy over intolerance and personal attacks is ridiculous, "champ").


flighterdoc said:
And, the last cop-out, "I'm out of this thread" - because you can't make a point.

Well, you win, I'm back. I am sorry that you have not been able to grasp any points in what I have said. In fact, comprehension seems to be a problem for you, as you are easily distracted by personal issues you insert into posts rather than extracting from them the essence of what the poster is trying to convey. It's a very typical defense mechanism when someone equates dissenting opinions of their beliefs with personal attacks. It's not so much that I can't make a point as that you refuse to see it. And there's not much point to arguing with someone like that, is there?



flighterdoc said:
Here's a suggestion - if you don't like my posts, don't respond to them. Or, learn from them, your choice. At least have the courage to defend your own posts, preferably without resorting to personal attacks.

Here's a suggestion - Question my posts meaningfully, as opposed to becoming injured to the point of distraction just because I don't agree with you, and see what sort of defense I can offer when you don't bog down meaningful discussion with accusations of intolerance and groundless propaganda.

Final "point" (so designated to remove confusion): Chill out! They're words and ideas, not slings and arrows. At the end of the day we're both people who feel the same way we always have, just with a little more information about what else is out there. SDN is a forum for exchanging opinions, which can lead to some heated debate. I support that, and I understand that anything I see in these forums should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially from someone predicting Hannity in the Oval Office 😉
 
the other Dr. said:
Please point out where. And do so, if possible, without taking statements out of context or making leaps of logic.

It might be better if those of you with such dissenting opinions of AMSA's obviously outrageous politics would spend your time forming a new organization more representative of your obviously non-partial ideals, diverting you from being physicians with a political and moral agenda but without the responsibility to inform yourselves before you assail people with your condescending nonsense. I wouldn't want someone like YOU representing ME just because we hold the same degree. Enough people already hate and distrust doctors. We certainly don't need to attack civil rights and medical freedoms to further distance the medical profession from the patients. Leave that nonsense to the politicians, who will at least do their homework before lying to us. Sheesh.

Located at http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1697115&postcount=41

Then
Clearly. Your comment represents the "medicine is an entity unto itself with no influence from or on the outside world" attitude that neglects the many social, political, and economic factors that you feel may not impact medical students, per se, but do impact the average person you may someday treat. Being uninformed and dismissive of dissenting opinions is nothing to be proud of.
at http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1697262&postcount=48

BTW, those quote marks are NOT a quote of anything I said. It was your tolerant interpretation of something I said that you disagree with.

Then,

You use this argument in other forums when others expose the weakness or narrow-mindedness of your argument. Go ahead, have your opinion, I will give it the respect it is due but I will, of course, question the motives and background behind it in an effort to understand the rationale of your point of view. Once you play your trump card as you have just done, flighterdoc, it is pointless to have an exchange with you, as any further response is seen as invalidating your feelings. So sorry my humble posts questioned your qualification to have an opinion. I meant for them to question your qualification to be a good physician.
at http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1697665&postcount=74

Making more baseless, ad-hominem attacks.

Then you must have lied when you said:

Have the last word, I'm out of this thread, as it has (and here I agree with you) gone beyond what pertains to medicine and medical education.
at http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1697665&postcount=74

I certainly don't like that my opinion of your opinion somehow translates to intolerance. I cannot productively argue with someone whose feelings are hurt by an opposing viewpoint. I could understand you becoming a little unglued if we were face to face, but on SDN you have time to read and digest anything you see on this thread, time to analyze the main point, and time to enter a reply (not to mention time to proofread what you type). After all this time, the best you have is "You're mean, leave me alone"?

You're the one who questioned my opinions, and my ability to be a physician. I agree that you're doing a terrible job of arguing with me. But, you're making attacks, not me. Calling you "champ" is not an attack.
Once again, ad nauseum instead of substance. How can I refute your feelings and opinions or your decision to be a Republican or quit AMSA? It's your right to feel and act as you see fit. I can only offer my own opinions and the information behind them, (along with some personal attacks to "fight fire with fire"; your condescending attitude and self-righteousness are only thinly veiled by lame attempts at humor and humility, and your hypocrisy over intolerance and personal attacks is ridiculous, "champ").

LOL. Right.
 
Seriously, I could not have made my points about you better than you did with your recent post. Sorry I offended you so deeply.

I "must have lied"... good grief. How do you always manage to derail worthwhile discussions like this? You should be on Bush's media defense team.

BTW, where do you live? Just curious (in a non-threatening, non-attacking, tolerant and personable way).
 
Dr. Dix said:
I thought duplicate posts were not allowed?

Yeah, I think you're right.

--Vinoy
 
Dr. Dix said:
I thought duplicate posts were not allowed?

Yeah, I think you're right.

--Vinoy
 
I dont think John Holmes has any ulterior motives to destroy AMSA, he just wants to draw distinction of the type of organization it has become.

I can tell you this, it has always been a liberal organization, back to the days of the Viet Nam war. This is the student organization that rejected the more conservative AMA.
I draw no ill will for their liberalism.

When I joined AMSA, it was a worthwhile pursuit. People were respectful and the politics were a minimum. Since 2002, the focus has upped to liberal activism. And 2002 Anti-Bush entertainment in Washington DC's National convention was the straw that broke the camel's back. I was truly offended that the leadership was more interested in carrying the DNC's banner than discussing issues.

I could tell you this I have not been part AMSA since I saw the direction the leadership has taken us. $25 for premeds, and no right to vote. The way they say the respect international medical students and deny them a say in their organization while claiming that they are fighting for their side. Patrick Dolan is a good person as the International Trustee, but him and all the other IMG's are getting duped. I wouldnt want to be part of an organization where as I am a paying member and not represented.

BTW I got a beautiful letter from the Premed Trustee Elisabeth Epps, who is Liz Kreb's boss about how pathetic and negative anyone who disagrees with them can be.

Side Note: How is it that Liz Krebs couldnt attain the postion of premed trustee after 4 years in AMSA's leadership structure, while Elisabeth Epps got it in only 2? Who is to wonder why Liz is so loyal to AMSA? I know why I couldn't, does she?

What is she fighting this board for? The SDN doesnt belong to AMSA.
Personally, you all know what you stand for. Read the PPP and if you agree, join AMSA. If not start your own organization!
Just be honest with yourself, why would join an organization that doesnt represent you. I am pretty sure AMSA wont miss your $65 dues or your $155 convention fee. AMSA doesnt need YOUR money to operate.

Vinny
 
drbludevil said:
I dont think John Holmes has any ulterior motives to destroy AMSA, he just wants to draw distinction of the type of organization it has become.

I can tell you this, it has always been a liberal organization, back to the days of the Viet Nam war. This is the student organization that rejected the more conservative AMA.
I draw no ill will for their liberalism.

When I joined AMSA, it was a worthwhile pursuit. People were respectful and the politics were a minimum. Since 2002, the focus has upped to liberal activism. And 2002 Anti-Bush entertainment in Washington DC's National convention was the straw that broke the camel's back. I was truly offended that the leadership was more interested in carrying the DNC's banner than discussing issues.

I could tell you this I have not been part AMSA since I saw the direction the leadership has taken us. $25 for premeds, and no right to vote. The way they say the respect international medical students and deny them a say in their organization while claiming that they are fighting for their side. Patrick Dolan is a good person as the International Trustee, but him and all the other IMG's are getting duped. I wouldnt want to be part of an organization where as I am a paying member and not represented.

BTW I got a beautiful letter from the Premed Trustee Elisabeth Epps, who is Liz Kreb's boss about how pathetic and negative anyone who disagrees with them can be.

Side Note: How is it that Liz Krebs couldnt attain the postion of premed trustee after 4 years in AMSA's leadership structure, while Elisabeth Epps got it in only 2? Who is to wonder why Liz is so loyal to AMSA? I know why I couldn't, does she?

What is she fighting this board for? The SDN doesnt belong to AMSA.
Personally, you all know what you stand for. Read the PPP and if you agree, join AMSA. If not start your own organization!
Just be honest with yourself, why would join an organization that doesnt represent you. I am pretty sure AMSA wont miss your $65 dues or your $155 convention fee. AMSA doesnt need YOUR money to operate.

Vinny

Whoa. I must say I did a double take when I got to the end of that post. Heh.

--Vinoy
 
All of you people ripping AMSA should have gone to the national convention. After the AIDS rally, in which they tore apart Bush (whom I personally support), they had a voluntary mock presidential election to see where people in the organization stood. You're telling me that after 3 hours of ripping Bush, people would circle his name on the stupid piece of paper? MY A**.
 
Thanks for the insight into the AMSA. Regardless of your political persuasion, it would have been nice to know the beliefs of the group prior to the "Netter Buyin" three years ago.
 
Vinny,

Sometimes your pessimism can be nearly depressing! Is this the same Vinny
that ran for PT? If not, sorry, but if so, why would you want to lead in an
organization that you consistently speak of so disparagingly? If you feel we
are "filling YOUR inbox" with such left leaning propaganda, please, please
unsubscribe. Please. And at a minimum, keep the negativity to yourself. I'm
glad you peppered your remarks with a plug for benefits of friendships
forged at AMSA, but come now... are you still an AMSA member?

-Elisabeth Epps AMSA Premedical Trustee
 
FYSerious concern

Beware of creeping Fascism.

It is a sad day when it becomes clear that people in the medical profession (doctors, nurses and medics) did not blow whistles in Abu Ghraib on torture of prisoners.

Prayers

Dan

------ Forwarded Message
From: [email protected] (Tina Staik)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:44:01 +0200
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: Another Distinct Parallel between Nazi Germany and today's Neo-Cons: Medical Doctors and Torture

Doctors and Torture
By Robert Jay Lifton, M.D.
The New England Journal of Medicine Volume 351:415-416 July 29, 2004 Number 5
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/5/415

Thursday 29 July 2004

We know that medical personnel have failed to report to higher authorities wounds that were clearly caused by torture and that they have neglected to take steps to interrupt this torture. In addition, they have turned over prisoners' medical records to interrogators who could use them to exploit the prisoners' weaknesses or vulnerabilities. We have not yet learned the extent of medical involvement in delaying and possibly falsifying the death certificates of prisoners who have been killed by torturers.

A May 22 article on Abu Ghraib in the New York Times states that "much of the evidence of abuse at the prison came from medical documents" and that records and statements "showed doctors and medics reporting to the area of the prison where the abuse occurred several times to stitch wounds, tend to collapsed prisoners or see patients with bruised or reddened genitals." 1 According to the article, two doctors who gave a painkiller to a prisoner for a dislocated shoulder and sent him to an outside hospital recognized that the injury was caused by his arms being handcuffed and held over his head for "a long period," but they did not report any suspicions of abuse. A staff sergeant medic who had seen the prisoner in that position later told investigators that he had instructed a military policeman to free the man but that he did not do so. A nurse, when called to attend to a prisoner who was having a panic attack, saw naked Iraqis in a human pyramid with sandbags over their heads but did not report it until an investigation was held several months later.

A June 10 article in the Washington Post tells of a long-standing policy at the Guant?namo Bay facility whereby military interrogators were given access to the medical records of individual prisoners. 2 The policy was maintained despite complaints by the Red Cross that such records "are being used by interrogators to gain information in developing an interrogation plan." A civilian psychiatrist who was part of a medical review team was "disturbed" about not having been told about the practice and said that it would give interrogators "tremendous power" over prisoners.

Other reports, though sketchier, suggest that the death certificates of prisoners who might have been killed by various forms of mistreatment have not only been delayed but may have camouflaged the fatal abuse by attributing deaths to conditions such as cardiovascular disease. 3

Various medical protocols - notably, the World Medical Association Declaration of Tokyo in 1975 - prohibit all three of these forms of medical complicity in torture. Moreover, the Hippocratic Oath declares, "I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrongdoing."

To be a military physician is to be subject to potential moral conflict between commitment to the healing of individual people, on the one hand, and responsibility to the military hierarchy and the command structure, on the other. I experienced that conflict myself as an Air Force psychiatrist assigned to Japan and Korea some decades ago: I was required to decide whether to send psychologically disturbed men back to the United States, where they could best receive treatment, or to return them to their units, where they could best serve combat needs. There were, of course, other factors, such as a soldier's pride in not letting his buddies down, but for physicians this basic conflict remained.

American doctors at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere have undoubtedly been aware of their medical responsibility to document injuries and raise questions about their possible source in abuse. But those doctors and other medical personnel were part of a command structure that permitted, encouraged, and sometimes orchestrated torture to a degree that it became the norm - with which they were expected to comply - in the immediate prison environment.

The doctors thus brought a medical component to what I call an "atrocity-producing situation" - one so structured, psychologically and militarily, that ordinary people can readily engage in atrocities. Even without directly participating in the abuse, doctors may have become socialized to an environment of torture and by virtue of their medical authority helped sustain it. In studying various forms of medical abuse, I have found that the participation of doctors can confer an aura of legitimacy and can even create an illusion of therapy and healing.

The Nazis provided the most extreme example of doctors' becoming socialized to atrocity. 4 In addition to cruel medical experiments, many Nazi doctors, as part of military units, were directly involved in killing. To reach that point, they underwent a sequence of socialization: first to the medical profession, always a self-protective guild; then to the military, where they adapted to the requirements of command; and finally to camps such as Auschwitz, where adaptation included assuming leadership roles in the existing death factory. The great majority of these doctors were ordinary people who had killed no one before joining murderous Nazi institutions. They were corruptible and certainly responsible for what they did, but they became murderers mainly in atrocity-producing settings.

When I presented my work on Nazi doctors to U.S. medical groups, I received many thoughtful responses, including expressions of concern about much less extreme situations in which American doctors might be exposed to institutional pressures to violate their medical conscience. Frequently mentioned examples were prison doctors who administered or guided others in giving lethal injections to carry out the death penalty and military doctors in Vietnam who helped soldiers to become strong enough to resume their assignments in atrocity-producing situations.

Physicians are no more or less moral than other people. But as heirs to shamans and witch doctors, we may be seen by others - and sometimes by ourselves - as possessing special magic in connection with life and death. Various regimes have sought to harness that magic to their own despotic ends. Physicians have served as actual torturers in Chile and elsewhere; have surgically removed ears as punishment for desertion in Saddam Hussein's Iraq; have incarcerated political dissenters in mental hospitals, notably in the Soviet Union; have, as whites in South Africa, falsified medical reports on blacks who were tortured or killed; and have, as Americans associated with the Central Intelligence Agency, conducted harmful, sometimes fatal, experiments involving drugs and mind control.

With the possible exception of the altering of death certificates, the recent transgressions of U.S. military doctors have apparently not been of this order. But these examples help us to recognize what doctors are capable of when placed in atrocity-producing situations. A recent statement by the Physicians for Human Rights addresses this vulnerability in declaring that "torture can also compromise the integrity of health professionals." 5

To understand the full scope of American torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib and other prisons, we need to look more closely at the behavior of doctors and other medical personnel, as well as at the pressures created by the war in Iraq that produced this behavior. It is possible that some doctors, nurses, or medics took steps, of which we are not yet aware, to oppose the torture. It is certain that many more did not. But all those involved could nonetheless reveal, in valuable medical detail, much of what actually took place. By speaking out, they would take an important step toward reclaiming their role as healers.

Source Information
From the Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School, Boston.

References
* Zernike K. Only a few spoke up on abuse as many soldiers stayed silent <http://query.nytimes.com/search/abstract?res=F00A17F8345B0C718EDDAC0894DC404482> . New York Times. May 22, 2004:A1.
* Slevin P, Stephens J. Detainees' medical files shared: Guantanamo interrogators' access criticized <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29649-2004Jun9.html> . Washington Post. June 10, 2004:A1.
* Squitieri T, Moniz D. U.S. Army re-examines deaths of Iraqi prisoners <http://www.keepmedia.com/ShowItemDetails.do?itemID=496505&amp;extID=10032&amp;oliID=213> . USA Today. June 28, 2004.
* Lifton RJ. The Nazi doctors: medical killing and the psychology of genocide <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465049052/002-3943980-7039207?v=glance> . New York: Basic Books, 1986.
* Statement of Leonard Rubenstein <http://www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=13965&amp;c=36> , executive director, Physicians for Human Rights, June 2, 2004.

-------

------ End of Forwarded Message


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I've got the AMSA credit card. It's got a kickass % rate. 😀

I'm also the chapter president at my school, but I don't really get into all of their political shtuff.
 
theunc31 said:
All of you people ripping AMSA should have gone to the national convention. After the AIDS rally, in which they tore apart Bush (whom I personally support), they had a voluntary mock presidential election to see where people in the organization stood. You're telling me that after 3 hours of ripping Bush, people would circle his name on the stupid piece of paper? MY A**.
I was there, but I didn't do a lot of the activities. I did get to share a bed with a really hot chick though, which is about all I remember from that weekend!
 
drbludevil said:
FYSerious concern

Beware of creeping Fascism.

It is a sad day when it becomes clear that people in the medical profession (doctors, nurses and medics) did not blow whistles in Abu Ghraib on torture of prisoners.

Fascism, eh?

I thought you wanted people to keep the negativity to themselves. I am at your institution, and I can tell you that AMSA is an organization on the fringe of political beliefs.

They are well intentioned, I do not dispute that, but please take more than organizational lines and parrot them here. I am not sure what you are trying to show other than you subscribe to the email newsletter .... 👎
 
flighterdoc said:
You brought up the entire intolerance thread, champ. If you don't like the results of it, then try and find a better argument.

Once again, ad hominem instead of reason. No attempt to refute anything I've said, just personal attacks. And, the last cop-out, "I'm out of this thread" - because you can't make a point.

Here's a suggestion - if you don't like my posts, don't respond to them. Or, learn from them, your choice. At least have the courage to defend your own posts, preferably without resorting to personal attacks.

Hyuk Hyuk. YOU of all people talking about personal attacks. Hmmm... where was this flighterdoc when he asked me if I wanted to hurt animals or still urinated in my bed?
 
Darko said:
What's more paternalistic? Rogue judges in Boston and San Francisco single-handedly redefining a cultural bastion over 3000 years old? Or an amendment that would allow the people of each state to decide for themselves when to accept same-sex unions?

Maybe those judges did the right thing anyways... I'm not aware of the legal reasons for their decisions, but I assume that they did their decisions within the context of the constitutions.

If you are referring to the admendment calling for the banning of the gay marriage... it does not allow for individual states to decide whether or not to have gay marriages. It prohibits states, even ones with willing populations, to have gay marriages. I find it somewhat inevitable that I will be able to marry any man I love sometime in the future. The admendment would be an annoying roadblock to that time.

The article to which you linked is old. In December 2003, Bush respected the WTO and lifted the steel tariffs. On a happy note, the steel industry is experiencing good times because of all the foreign investment in China.

For a supposed free-trader it seemed terribly hypocritical for Bush to slap tariffs on steel. It only helped to undermine the US' bargaining position in economic trade talks. Why should a country open up it's markets when the US cordons off its own?

Bush probably respected the WTO because then the WTO would then allow the EU to counter with additional tariffs on its own. Also, like you said, the rising demand from China made the tariffs even more pointless.
 
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