An Inspiring Non-Trad Success Story

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MCAT 5 times and now she's a med student?

Yay.

Guess what? the buck doesn't stop there. You haven't "arrived."

Wake me up when she graduates and matches, and I'll do a better job of pretending to think this matters.

Wake me up again when she graduates residency, is board certified, or at least feels comfortable with her post-MD career plans and debt level.

Otherwise, these stories are counting chickens that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars before they're hatched.

She's non-trad except I don't call retaking the MCAT 5 times non-trad. I call it sucking. Doesn't bode well for Step 1.

More power to you non-trads. But let's keep this in perspective. You need to do more than get in to med school, and you certainly need test taking skills.
 
Crayola227 said:
MCAT 5 times and now she's a med student?

Yay.

Guess what? the buck doesn't stop there. You haven't "arrived."

Wake me up when she graduates and matches, and I'll do a better job of pretending to think this matters.

Wake me up again when she graduates residency, is board certified, or at least feels comfortable with her post-MD career plans and debt level.

Otherwise, these stories are counting chickens that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars before they're hatched.

She's non-trad except I don't call retaking the MCAT 5 times non-trad. I call it sucking. Doesn't bode well for Step 1.

More power to you non-trads. But let's keep this in perspective. You need to do more than get in to med school, and you certainly need test taking skills.
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It really isn't everything you think you have to say.
 
Yeah, unfortunately I'm inclined to agree that this story is premature. I'm glad nobody tried to do a story like this on me when I was a naive 46 year old M1 thinking I'd get urology.

By contrast, this is inspiring: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/sharon-handelsman-physician_n_1336609.html I met her. She's badass. She's on the other side.

I honestly don't get how AAMC could report 5 MCAT takes as if it's a good thing. Even if the only thing she was missing was the "in person" class she took for the 5th try, there's arrogance in going 4 times before consulting experts on med school admissions. Not able to find a med student? She'll be subject to the whims of people 30 years younger than her. Pretty much forever.

This part is painfully pre-allo: "OB/GYN was the obvious choice due to my background in nursing. I cannot see myself doing anything else."

I hope this turns out to be inspiring. I hope she gets to be the US equivalent of Catherine Hamlin. I hope she knows what "surgical residency" means. I hope she's done a 12 holding a retractor by now. I hope her knees and back are good. I hope she understands how important Step 1 is and what a trainwreck it is to not do well. I hope she and her husband have their retirement funded. I hope PSLF is still around for her. I hope she makes friends with a nonsurgical specialty. I hope she has people in academic ObGyn looking out for her, willing to make phone calls on her behalf. I hope she can appreciate the risk PDs will have to take for her.

As an extreme on the yikes continuum, I feel qualified to say: yikes.
 
MCAT 5 times seems bad yeah but an adcom decided she had demonstrated that she could handle the work and ultimately the career so she did something right. None of us sat on the panel that decided but all of us will either become (or not become) doctors based on similar panel decisions, so if you degrade their decision you are in turn saying something about the process that decided you should be a doctor.
 
esob said:
MCAT 5 times seems bad yeah but an adcom decided she had demonstrated that she could handle the work and ultimately the career so she did something right. None of us sat on the panel that decided but all of us will either become (or not become) doctors based on similar panel decisions, so if you degrade their decision you are in turn saying something about the process that decided you should be a doctor.
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This has nothing to do with degrading the fact that this person was accepted, in my mind.

It was more cautioning people, that just because you can get into med school against the odds, doesn't mean that hard part is behind you, or that it's a good idea.

I see stories like these, and my immediate thought is, "wow, I wonder how she's gonna get through med school and residency," not an example of how "Believe. Work hard. It can be done."

What can be done? This person in this story isn't done with anything.

The story from @DrMidlife is a much better story.
You can identify things in that story that led to success, what some challenges were, and what was positive about being non-trad.

The AMCAS story? I'm not surprised they used an acceptance story. They make money on applications, not career success. I'm not surprised they used a story of someone in med school. Let them finish the rest of an almost decade and see how they do.

You HAVE to think past admissions. I knew a lot of matriculants that were vaguely aware of residency, but not that it was competitive or the Match. Believe it or not a lot of people, even non-trads, don't look much past acceptance. It's easy to think you're set after that. You're not.
 
fwiw I'd feel the same about any 21 year old who needed 5 tries at the MCAT. Happy they're happy they're in med school. Really quite worried about their next few years. Horrified at the consequences of maybe not making it.

Getting in is NOT the hard part.
 
Why the hell did AAMC highlight this topic. Giving people false hope.

"Yes, I took the MCAT 5 times. I am invariably a slow reader, so getting through all the passages was a struggle for me.I was also used to over-thinking everything (ala PhD); so, this characteristic did not help when it came down to a timed standardized exam."

Inspiring story and all but let's look at reality. This student doctor took MCAT 5x attributing it to her slow reading and bad test taking skills. USMLE (at least 3 steps and continuing education exams) is also a standardized test (makes MCAT look like a joke) and it requires significantly more reading than MCAT, integrating over 10 disciplines. If she does make all the way to attending status she will in her 60s... Great job Texas A&M ADCOMs. Great foresight y'all must have. @Goro thoughts?

P.S. by no means am I discriminating her in any form. In my opinion they placed an impossible hurdle for her to pass. I'm a fan of the underdog, so am looking forward to being proven wrong. Maybe I'll even see her on the wards someday.
 
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Beezlebub said:
Why the hell did AAMC highlight this topic. Giving people false hope.

"Yes, I took the MCAT 5 times. I am invariably a slow reader, so getting through all the passages was a struggle for me.I was also used to over-thinking everything (ala PhD); so, this characteristic did not help when it came down to a timed standardized exam."

Inspiring story and all but let's look at reality. This student doctor took MCAT 5x attributing it to her slow reading and bad test taking skills. USMLE (at least 3 steps and continuing education exams) is also a standardized test (makes MCAT look like a joke) and it requires significantly more reading than MCAT, integrating over 10 disciplines. If she does make all the way to attending status she will in her 60s... Great job Texas A&M ADCOMs. Great foresight y'all must have. @Goro thoughts?

P.S. by no means am I discriminating her in any form. In my opinion they placed an impossible hurdle for her to pass. I'm a fan of the underdog, so am looking forward to being proven wrong. Maybe I'll even see her on the wards someday.
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I am glad when the Adcoms try to look past the obvious.

There's 2 kinds of non-trads ->

non-trads that are non-trads, yet when they apply themselves/overcome barriers, look on paper just as good as a trad.
They tend to do OK in med school. Turns out no matter your situation, a good GPA, MCAT, and working your ass off is predictive of success in med school.

Then there's the non-trads that don't look so good on paper (grades, MCAT, prior experience, etc).

Of those, there's 2 kinds ->

Ones that for reasons look like a gamble, yet somehow we can tell or can believe they will be great physicians.
We take the risk, and they manage to scrape by to be a success story.

Then there's the ones that fail. I've seen both types.

I'm OK that Adcoms take the chance on people like this. It's good. I want non-trads and the crappiest test takers that can skirt by - I believe in non-trads and diversity in medicine, and I don't think tests are the end all be all for being a good doc. They are necessary to get there or it's a non-starter, though. I don't care about tests, except that there must be a way to test you, and you must be able to have a ton of info in your brain and be able to reason with it.

But look at it this way - you're getting enough rope to hang yourself. Good luck.

PS - failing the MCAT and retaking is NBD compared to how career ending a single Step failure can be. Timing is critical. The pace is brutal.
A lot of ppl don't appreciate how much they are able to control schedule and pace-wise prior to med school.

PSS - A lot of my doom and gloom isn't even about non-trads to begin with, often I don't know what forum I'm in when I am alerted to a thread in one of my many watched forums. So you should feel "good" most of the time I'm speaking my mind with little thought to trad or non-trad. Don't like that? Chew what that means a little.
 
@Goro where u at. im curious about your take on this situation, given your role as an ADCOM.
 
Goro said:
VERY high risk student. The median of their MCAT scores will be the actual working MCAT. If this is in the low 20s, the student is at a high likelihood for poor outcomes.
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that's not what the ADCOMS thought
 
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Beezlebub said:
that's not what the ADCOMS thought
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I really like this post 😉.

I'm fairly certain she didn't reach out to aamc asking to have her story told. It just was. No one here can see the future so let her have the moment. There are people who took the mcat fewer times who still failed later. For where she is, it is an inspiring story. We can talk about her failure later when/if she gets there. It is not for us to be happy or worried about. There are people on this same forum who scored less than 25 on the mcat and somehow scored 250+ on step. Few, but still there.
 
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This is an NP that had to take the MCAT 5 times.......... Quite frankly this story isn't inspiring, but just insane. What does science matter though....
 
tskiihii said:
I'm going to pretend you didn't say adcoms committee because I really this post 😉.

I'm fairly certain she didn't reach out to aamc asking to have her story told. It just was. No one here can see the future so let her have the moment. There are people who took the mcat fewer times who still failed later. For where she is, it is an inspiring story. We can talk about her failure later when/if she gets there. It is not for us to be happy or worried about. There are people on this same forum who scored less than 25 on the mcat and somehow scored 250+ on step. Few, but still there.
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I have nothing against her, in fact I applaud her resilence in taking the MCAT 5x, applying to med school at her age with countless other obstacles. That's a true testament to her will and/or pure insanity - up for debate. I assume you're not a medical student b/c you would understand that USMLEs are significantly more challenging than the MCAT. In addition, the rigor of medical school is unparallel to anything that I can possibly think of, so needless to say I think am fair in questioning the decision of ADCOMS.
Goro said:
Sometime we take risks on people. It's not always about numbers.
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seriously though? sometimes in life we have to think with our brain and not with our heart. In this case, it's clearly the latter. Think long term: they are going to put her thru 4yrs of medical school, assuming she passes all 3 Steps and matches, then at least 4yrs of residency after that. Likelihood? This will be my final say on this thread because I suspect people will start misinterpreting my words and deem me an intolerable dbag... even though I'm only a logical realist.
 
Beezlebub said:
I have nothing against her, in fact I applaud her resilence in taking the MCAT 5x, applying to med school at her age with countless other obstacles. That's a true testament to her will and/or pure insanity - up for debate. I assume you're not a medical student b/c you would understand that USMLEs are significantly more challenging than the MCAT. In addition, the rigor of medical school is unparallel to anything that I can possibly think of, so needless to say I think am fair in questioning the decision of ADCOMS.
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You can't question the decision of the adcoms when you are not as privy to all the information as they were. They have been doing it for years, and yes may be she fooled her interviewers but if it is like most schools, a bunch of people on the admission committee with her application voted her in. Haven't taken step 1 yet so it would be presumptuous of me to comment on it, but will she score 250+, maybe not but she can still pass it and go ahead to be a doctor.
 
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tskiihii said:
I really like this post 😉.

I'm fairly certain she didn't reach out to aamc asking to have her story told. It just was. No one here can see the future so let her have the moment. There are people who took the mcat fewer times who still failed later. For where she is, it is an inspiring story. We can talk about her failure later when/if she gets there. It is not for us to be happy or worried about. There are people on this same forum who scored less than 25 on the mcat and somehow scored 250+ on step. Few, but still there.
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Actually, she probably did have to give her permission to be featured with all of her identifying information and picture on their website.
I am certain she was probably featured for having so many fails - and everyone with this many MCAT fails, has an interesting story.
You checkbox when you apply if the MCAT people can know the if you were accepted or not, and if they can contact you for "research and other purposes." Well so many of us want to help research knowing how we die in the desert of thirst for knowledge re: admissions.

Of course they want to feature someone like this. They want to keep that sweet sweet app money rolling in. I don't know the numbers now, back in my day average MCAT of applicant: 24. Average MCAT of matriculant: 31.

I did an in person Kaplan course and went to all the sessions, but really sort of ****ed off reading or even doing most questions. Coursework was fresh not that fresh. My halfway diagnostic was 24. I know what it was to score 24. I also know what it was to take the real thing and get into medical school. I also know what it was to study harder than I ever have in my entire life for two years straight with no mercy, and then spend a month studying as diligently as I ever have in my life, to pass Step 1 the first time.

I'm not trying to hurt anyone here or this is my ego. I just described a totally average doctor not worth writing home about to anyone.

But, having lived through each step, each difference - I could not in good conscience admit someone with that low an MCAT. There is a reason the average is where it is, even though it seems impossibly high and the MCAT stupidly detailed and hard. Being a doctor is that stupidly detailed and hard.

The 8 hour MCAT itself is not that different than what I did 4 hours every other week for two years of my life.

The warped speed of my brain making thousands of little :boom: omigod, I just had another brain aneurysm thinking about MS3 or PGY1 so many days.
 
tskiihii said:
You can't question the decision of the adcoms when you are not as privy to all the information as they were. They have been doing it for years, and yes may be she fooled her interviewers but if it is like most schools, a bunch of people on the admission committee with her application voted her in. Haven't taken step 1 yet so it would be presumptuous of me to comment on it, but will she score 250+, maybe not but she can still pass it and go ahead to be a doctor.
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hell, I don't even think she fooled her interviewers, she didn't have the numbers to hide behind.

Me on the other hand.... :scared:

Guess what though? Everyone fools their interviewers!!! :ninja::ninja::ninja: Or thinks they do. Imposter Syndrome fo lyfe!
 
Crayola227 said:
Actually, she probably did have to give her permission to be featured with all of her identifying information and picture on their website.
I am certain she was probably featured for having so many fails - and everyone with this many MCAT fails, has an interesting story.


I'm not trying to hurt anyone here or this is my ego. I just described a totally average doctor not worth writing home about to anyone.

But, having lived through each step, each difference - I could not in good conscience admit someone with that low an MCAT. There is a reason the average is where it is, even though it seems impossibly high and the MCAT stupidly detailed and hard. Being a doctor is that stupidly detailed and hard.

The 8 hour MCAT itself is not that different than what I did 4 hours every other week for two years of my life.

The warped speed of my brain making thousands of little omigod, I just had another brain aneurysm thinking about MS3 or PGY1 so many days.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but permission to be featured is very different from asking to be featured.

About the bolded, you're not an adcom though, so at least pretend they know what they are doing.
 
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Good for her on getting in; however, it's alarming that she needed 5 attempts to matriculate. It makes her matriculation appear almost like luck than ability. Also, it has been mentioned numerous times on this board and others that older students tend to match in the non-procedural fields (ex. IM, FM, Psych); maybe she has someone looking out for her come match time, but from one viewpoint this individual has greater potential liability (physical and cognitive decline).

tskiihii said:
You can't question the decision of the adcoms when you are not as privy to all the information as they were.
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Disagree. If the story is put out there, it's open to discussion and debate regardless of who put it out there.
 
Apollo1 said:
Good for her on getting in; however, it's alarming that she needed 5 attempts to matriculate. It makes her matriculation appear almost like luck than ability. Also, it has been mentioned numerous times on this board and others that older students tend to match in the non-procedural fields (ex. IM, FM, Psych); maybe she has someone looking out for her come match time, but from one viewpoint this individual has greater potential liability (physical and cognitive decline).



Disagree. If the story is put out there, it's open to discussion and debate regardless of who put it out there.
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Yes, discuss and debate all you want bearing in mind you don't have all the facts to question their decision. That is my point.
 
tskiihii said:
Maybe, but permission to be featured is very different from asking to be featured.

About the bolded, you're not an adcom though, so at least pretend they know what they are doing.
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OK, I think I see what you're saying now.

The most important thing is to make sure sure YOUR HEART IS RIGHT.

Not everyone in medicine's is, or can tell if yours is. Or they can, but they don't care.
You can't always tell if someone's is +/-, though, so you can't ever write off a colleague. Some of them are so good at hiding their heart, it's just flooring sometimes.

But when someone's heart is right full stop for sure, the people whose heart is also right, they can tell.

Besides passing a test, which we harped on, having your heart right is the biggest predictor of success.

I don't have to be adcom to say, whether or not THEY know what they are doing - YOU know your heart. If your heart is right, there are other doctors who will know this about you, and they will bend over backwards in their own special way. People you thought hated you for years will pull for you when the chips are down - you never really understood their heart, or how "hating" you was their way of "doctoring" - but they have your back too. It's freaky and it's amazing.

If they believe your heart, which they do if they accept you, and that is the one thing you are sure of - than you have something that won't help you pass Step 1, but it will help you with PEOPLE - which don't ask me how this gets forgotten - is actually the most important part of being a doctor.

@Goro talks about the underdog. But we don't talk about, which underdog stories go on, struggle more, and get somewhere?

It's getting harder for me to put into words.

I'll talk about diversity in medicine.
 
Apollo1 said:
Good for her on getting in; however, it's alarming that she needed 5 attempts to matriculate. It makes her matriculation appear almost like luck than ability. Also, it has been mentioned numerous times on this board and others that older students tend to match in the non-procedural fields (ex. IM, FM, Psych); maybe she has someone looking out for her come match time, but from one viewpoint this individual has greater potential liability (physical and cognitive decline).

Disagree. If the story is put out there, it's open to discussion and debate regardless of who put it out there.
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Sure, it's open to debate, there's just a LOT we could discuss.

I am alarmed for her test taking ability. However, she's a slam dunk clinically. She already has soooooo many years with people - that's where all the trads that look good on paper **** the bed for adcoms.

Her matriculation is in NO way luck. Someone like this is plucked and groomed for the role she is going to play in the coming class. Much as I said AMCAS did, so did her school, but for much better reasons. I had plenty of classmates that were like her in various ways. She has a lot of pressure on her to succeed, and she'll have a lot of help. (true for every matriculant, it's just... unique to each)

We all represented something the adcoms wanted - sometimes that does feel like tokenism. I'm the oldest in the class. I'm the Native American. I'm the MCAT of 14. I'm not those things but I spent time in jail. I'm basically a white trad but I tell a good yarn. We sat around and talked about it - it's not quite the stigmatized evil of the allo boards once you're in. I'll spare you some of the med school lecture on how they try to beat this out of you.

PATIENTS FIRST. Profession a close second, because that's how we do mission one.

The profession must care for every single type of human being there is, every type of medical problem, any number of them in any combination of anything. All that is possible of human nature, we must care for. We cannot do this so well if our profession does not in some microcosm, reflect the diversity of the humanity we must face.

The patients and their problems will not suit us. We must suit them. Not to perpetuate specialty stereotypes, but we therefore need all types of doctors, not just in "work they do" but "how they think" - personality type. Not everyone that can get an MD will make a good surgeon, ob/gyn, psych. We need some of each. We need type A's, docs that will tell you "You're 8 months pregnant and haven't seen a doc? This is the 20th Century, get your head out of your ass!" with no discomfort, and doctors that could never say that, but could say the same thing really. We need the quiet weird introverted ones, and the sort of loud laugh boisterous ones. Each one will be someone's beloved/hated FM/psych/surgeon, so some of both. Ones that want to be in a lab all day long, and others that want to stand 12+ hours a day deeply engrossed in entrails.
 
Crayola227 said:
Sure, it's open to debate, there's just a LOT we could discuss.

......
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Thank you for eloquently putting my scattered thoughts into words. There is a lot about her story that is still inspirational even if flawed on one step - a huge step, still one step. For her sake, I hope she has been able to take care of whatever made her take the mcat 5 times, but where she fails in test taking, she somehow has managed to be an associate professor, a teacher, have her nursing degrees BSN and MSN (from a long time ago, I think this matter, don't trust some nursing programs these days) and get herself a PhD. All while being a wife and mother. Her clinical experience is unparalleled so we can let that post be without raining all our logic on her parade.
 
Took the MCAT twice. Got accepted after the first attempt. The higher score wasn't even viewed by any program. Did well/ok in Med school but didn't make it past the boards. I know people with 21's on their MCAT (multiple attempts) that just matched in ER with their above avg boards. They're not her age but nobody knows what could happen.
It's a man made exam and if you don't take it when you're 100% ready mentally and physically it will hurt. But no one could judge her now. It's all up to her I guess.
 
I know someone who got a 23, retook, didn't really improve that much, like a 27, and they got in. Post bacc. Great grades though. Stellar human being.

Struggled in the first year, even repeated a year, but they were set on proving it was personal and limited, not academic. Rockstar the rest of the way through school. About to match to their choice programs for specialty. Will update you on eventually on Match and intern year.
 
The MCAT is not the sole predictor how well a person will do in step 1. Even more importantly, is how you'll do in classes within the first two years, your study habits, time management skills, stress management, etc. Also, there are resources available now that help you prepare for the Steps that may not have been available for some of you in the past. Besides, more USMLE like lecture exam questions during classes, there are shelf exams right from the NBME for major basic science courses, some schools also have a basic science comprehensive examination or the comp, where a student must pass this exam within the passing range of step 1 in order to register and sit the actual Step 1. Then, there are full length available for purchase from the NBME itself to know if you're ready or not and are the best indicator how you will do on Step 1.

All in all, doing badly on the Mcat is not the end of the world. Its a hurdle that every premed must get through in order to enter medical school. A low scoring MCAT student can do just fine and sometimes even better than their other counterparts. There are people who have never taken the MCAT, yet do well on the step, on the other hand, an MD student, with the avg MCAT/GPA stat, can do poorly or even fail it. I personally know both types of these people.
So it all varies and depends on the student's abilities to learn the two years of courses well by using the proper resources.

Finally, let's not kid ourselves and pretend we know what the applicant went through from her Nursing career to Ph.D. and now to MD. We all can sit behind our computers and start blabbing about how she has taken the MCAT 5x and will DO poorly on the step and not match, etc. Yeah, thanks for knowing and telling the future for us. Maybe use these supernatural powers to better your own lives?

Give her a chance, she certainly deserves one!

We cannot put ourselves in her shoes or in the shoes of the ADCOMs who accepted her. We just can't.

Anyways, I'm rooting for her. I hope she does well in the upcoming years and become a doctor that she always wanted to be.
 
DexterMorganSK said:
The MCAT is not the sole predictor how well a person will do in step 1. Even more importantly, is how you'll do in classes within the first two years, your study habits, time management skills, stress management, etc. Also, there are resources available now that help you prepare for the Steps that may not have been available for some of you in the past. Besides, more USMLE like lecture exam questions during classes, there are shelf exams right from the NBME for major basic science courses, some schools also have a basic science comprehensive examination or the comp, where a student must pass this exam within the passing range of step 1 in order to register and sit the actual Step 1. Then, there are full length available for purchase from the NBME itself to know if you're ready or not and are the best indicator how you will do on Step 1.

All in all, doing badly on the Mcat is not the end of the world. Its a hurdle that every premed must get through in order to enter medical school. A low scoring MCAT student can do just fine and sometimes even better than their other counterparts. There are people who have never taken the MCAT, yet do well on the step, on the other hand, an MD student, with the avg MCAT/GPA stat, can do poorly or even fail it. I personally know both types of these people.
So it all varies and depends on the student's abilities to learn the two years of courses well by using the proper resources.

Finally, let's not kid ourselves and pretend we know what the applicant went through from her Nursing career to Ph.D. and now to MD. We all can sit behind our computers and start blabbing about how she has taken the MCAT 5x and will DO poorly on the step and not match, etc. Yeah, thanks for knowing and telling the future for us. Maybe use these supernatural powers to better your own lives?

Give her a chance, she certainly deserves one!

We cannot put ourselves in her shoes or in the shoes of the ADCOMs who accepted her. We just can't.

Anyways, I'm rooting for her. I hope she does well in the upcoming years and become a doctor that she always wanted to be.
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"Probability"
 
I think my main concern was that people would see this story, with the numbers, and with their 1.01 GPA after 405 credits, think if they just took the MCAT a 15th time.....

It isn't just a numbers game and she certainly has a helluva lot of other things going for her based on hard work, ability, people skills.

I also didn't want people to lose perspective that if their 15th MCAT did get them in.......

But speaking of probability, people accepted to medical school tend to do well. It's a good group picked by a good group.

We take care of our own.
by hazing them within an inch of their lives.
 
Another NonTrad here. Took the MCAT 2x, highest score being a 27. Enrolled in an MS program and then MD following year. Scored a 245 on Step 1, 250 on CK. Matched in Derm last year. It certainly is possible. Good luck to everyone here!
 
nds86 said:
Another NonTrad here. Took the MCAT 2x, highest score being a 27. Enrolled in an MS program and then MD following year. Scored a 245 on Step 1, 250 on CK. Matched in Derm last year. It certainly is possible. Good luck to everyone here!
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This right here is why it bothers me when we just write people off. Very impressive! Congrats!
 
Crayola227 said:
haha. Have you ever read House of God?
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you're like the 900th person to ask me that. My buddy gifted that to me and I still havent had the motivation to read it. Perhaps during my school break. I heard it was somewhat perverted so am looking forward to it.
 
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