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And you thought pharmacy was bad?!
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Interesting...I read another law school article recently that stated the law schools make up these low paying jobs so that way they can employ their own grads and claim 100% placement on their admissions websites.
I think inflating placement statistics is pretty common; maybe more necessary for the law profession though.
I think inflating placement statistics is pretty common; maybe more necessary for the law profession though.
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Anyone see this yahoo article recently?
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/attention-lawyers-10-000-salary-190253092.html
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/attention-lawyers-10-000-salary-190253092.html
That just blows my mind. I know people who have their heart set on that profession.
If I was headed in that direction, I would hang out my own shingle and figure out a killer bankruptcy marketing strategy. Even on the cheap end of things, BK's are about $1,200. Just do five of those per month (one to pay rent, two to pay for the marketing, and two live on) and you're doing better than a $10,000 p/year job.
If I was headed in that direction, I would hang out my own shingle and figure out a killer bankruptcy marketing strategy. Even on the cheap end of things, BK's are about $1,200. Just do five of those per month (one to pay rent, two to pay for the marketing, and two live on) and you're doing better than a $10,000 p/year job.
I know someone from college with a journalism degree and is now on TV doing the news.
Not bad IMO. Better than pharmacy! 🙄
Pharmacy schools inflate their stats all the time by counting people doing residenices as employed when they are NOT employed. If you are not a pharmacist working 40 hrs a week making 120K+ a year than you are unemployed. People doing residencies are only going to be there for 1 year max with no job offers to follow...that is unemployment.
What did Bambie's mother say? "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything?"
From what I've seen, I have to agree. My old roommate just graduated with a degree in broadcast journalism, and one of her professors told her class that it's very likely most of them won't find the ideal jobs they want in the industry. She still has yet to find a job relating to journalism, and said many of the people in her major didn't have a job lined up at graduation.
What % of journalism graduates are ACTUALLY employed in journalism? Hint: it's a lot lower than the % of pharmacy graduates working as pharmacists.
You should stop posting. Do you know how unintelligent you sound?
Only people working full time are employed? What about people who want to work part time? What about people in government jobs with a 37.5 hour work week? Why do you assume that people who do residencies will have no job offers? Do you even think about stuff before you type it?
agreed.
Thank you for reading my mind and posting something a lot nicer than I was thinking.
LOL...
Employed means someone in hired permanently to work there. I mention six figures b/c thats what a pharmacist's salary is suppose to be.
People like to hear everything sugarcoated on here, but I am just being blunt here.
Yes, someone who does a residency can be smart and can be perfect and can be 100% amazing. I never say they were not. But the fact that you are NOT guarantee a job with a residency anymore means you are unemployed. I am just defining unemployment and NOT sugarcoating everything that everyone wants to hear.
Someone who does a residency can be smart and great, sure but they are NOT guarantee a job are they? Yes or no? If its no, then they are unemployed and should be put in the unemployed category.
If they were guarantee a job then they would be employed. I am just defining the word, I never say a resident isn't smart or can't find a job. They are just not employed until they actually find a job.
It's the definition of employment. Employment is someone who is offered a position permanently with a company. If we are talking about a pharmacist than that person should be paid six figures unless something is wrong of course.
People on here just like to get mad if they don't hear everything sugarcoated.
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If you're standing in a pharmacy in a white coat, and you're being paid to be there (in real dollars instead of semester hours) then I would say you're employed. Period.
Pays more than Home Depot. 😀
I dare SHC to edit the Wiki dictionary entry on "employed."
LOL...
Employed means someone in hired permanently to work there. I mention six figures b/c thats what a pharmacist's salary is suppose to be.
People like to hear everything sugarcoated on here, but I am just being blunt here.
Yes, someone who does a residency can be smart and can be perfect and can be 100% amazing. I never say they were not. But the fact that you are NOT guarantee a job with a residency anymore means you are unemployed. I am just defining unemployment and NOT sugarcoating everything that everyone wants to hear.
Someone who does a residency can be smart and great, sure but they are NOT guarantee a job are they? Yes or no? If its no, then they are unemployed and should be put in the unemployed category.
If they were guarantee a job then they would be employed. I am just defining the word, I never say a resident isn't smart or can't find a job. They are just not employed until they actually find a job.
It's the definition of employment. Employment is someone who is offered a position permanently with a company. If we are talking about a pharmacist than that person should be paid six figures unless something is wrong of course.
People on here just like to get mad if they don't heard everything sugarcoated.
No. You are wrong. There is no such thing as "permanent" employment. Any of us can be fired at any time for any reason. There are certain exceptions, but for the the majority of jobs, they are not "permanent."
And I think it's HILARIOUS that you think I'm upset because you don't sugarcoat things. I'm annoyed because your posts are so ridiculous and uninformed.
Oh don't play this game. What about pharmacists who do not wear a white coat? Are they unemployed? 😉
😆
You know what I mean but you are choosing to ignore it.
Of course you can be fired anytime. If you steal, make too many mistakes, are bad at your job, always late, very lazy, and many other things that you can do wrong etc. of course you can be fired. I think we all know that so I never mention it.
A resident is someone that will only be there for 1 year thats it. That is not employment. Yes, 10 years ago when they were guarantee employment they would be count as employed.
I count employed as a company offering me a position for a long term (unless I do something wrong of course or if they find someone better etc.)
Employment isn't you are here for 1 year for "training" then you gotta go.
Of course I am not putting down residency, it's good b/c it's the only way to be competitive in this very bad market. But this thread is talking about schools inflating their employment stats and pharmacy school is just as bad as any other school in inflating their employment stats. That's my point. The pharmacy employment rate is highly inflated like many other fields.
The definition isn't 1 year of training for sure.
I suppose all interns are also unemployed. That is sad. I work too much for someone who is unemployed. 🙁
EDIT: Does this mean I can collect unemployment benefits?!
EDIT: Does this mean I can collect unemployment benefits?!
It's HILARIOUS that you are turning my point of pharmacy schools inflating their employment stats like every other field into an argument of how good residents are. How good residencies are and if they are worth doing etc. was never my point. I have no opinion on that.
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Where did I say anything about that? Residents are employed. They meet the real definition of employment, not your made up definition. You should google the real definition of employed vs. unemployed in this country. Try educating yourself.
Your reading comprehension is sub-par. A4MD never said anything about the relative merit of residencies, only that you are too uniformed about what employment is to have a reasonable discussion about it. She was being too nice so let me say it bluntly (b/c you like it when people do not sugar coat things, right?). You are too stupid to have a reasonable discussion with. No one said anything about if a residency is worth it, they were only pointing out that your made up definition of employment paints a picture of you as someone so woefully uninformed that it calls into question both your grasp of English as well as your ability to to form an intelligent thought.
I am 100% certain that you are not as stupid as you act on SDN. I do not know if it is for the attention or for fun or what, but I cannot believe that you do not know what employment means or think you can use whatever the hell definition you want and be taken seriously or think you can deflect to other issues when you are called out. Do yourself a favor and excuse yourself from this conversation.
I see your point SHC1984, though you did make a bad choice of words which blew up in your face spectacularly.
Hiring a new grad as a resident does have completely different selection criteria, success rates, job duties and expectations (basically a training position), a much lower salary, and is only for one year, compared to a pharmacist position, so these things should be considered when looking at graduate employment statistics that do not differentiate this.
FWIW, I have seen pharmacists who completed residencies and still could not get the jobs that they wanted. Some chose to wait for the right job and be unemployed, and others went retail or per diem (underemployed).
Hiring a new grad as a resident does have completely different selection criteria, success rates, job duties and expectations (basically a training position), a much lower salary, and is only for one year, compared to a pharmacist position, so these things should be considered when looking at graduate employment statistics that do not differentiate this.
FWIW, I have seen pharmacists who completed residencies and still could not get the jobs that they wanted. Some chose to wait for the right job and be unemployed, and others went retail or per diem (underemployed).
Where are these statistics that don't differentiate? We just had graduation today for our class of 2012 and everything that was presented was very clear cut. This % going to residency... this % employed, etc. I don't think schools are using residency statistics to HIDE anything. If anything, schools are proud of their graduates' success in obtaining residency and promote that over graduates going to retail, etc.
No need to spoil a good story with FACTS...
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I am not referencing any statistics in particular. There is another way to interpret my sentence. Please read it as "so these things should be considered when looking at graduate employment statistics if they do not differentiate this."
The definition of being employed isn't training for 1 year.
Maybe it's a bad choice of words, but they all know what I mean. I don't think they can be so stupid as to not understand what I am saying.
You said it perfectly. Maybe they will agree with you. LOL.. Pharmacy school inflate their stats just as bad as law schools and all other school for that matter. That's the point I am making.
The point is this thread is making fun of Law schools for inflating their stats and that pharmacy isn't that bad. When pharmacy is just as bad as law schools for inflating their stats.
Pharmacy schools love to say there is a shortage of pharmacist and that employment is near perfect etc. When the real stats are more like:
Class of 2012
~60% employed
~20% residency
~20% unemployed.
Pharmacy schools however would never post this. Pharmacy schools will only inflate their stats like all other schools. People on here can nit pick all they want or act like they are stupid and don't understand what I am are saying, but all I am saying is that pharmaacy school employment stats are just as inflated as any other school.
Someone else seems to think it's commonplace. But even if you accept her (questionable, IMO) premise that pharmacy schools inflate their stats "all the time," the rest of the post is crap. Residency is a form of employment. It's a different kind of employment, but it's definitely not UNemployment.
No, it's having a job that provides a paycheck and (sometimes) benefits. Both of which apply to residency. Residency is a form of employment that is also training. I know you don't understand, that's ok.
Here's an idea. How about you post some links to these inflated stats? Find something to support your positions instead of just calling people who don't agree with you stupid. Prove us wrong.
Lastly, this thread makes fun of Law schools for counting jobs (that are not really jobs for Lawyers) as being employed.
People seem to think that the employment rate for law schools are inflated b/c law schools count jobs that pay crappy and not really for lawyers etc. as employment.
So only jobs that are really for Lawyers and pay well should count right? RIGHT, EXACTLY.
That's my point.
So if it is so "wrong" for law schools to count sh*tty jobs as employment in their stats...then why is it okay for all these pharmacy schools to report any random jobs (training) they want as jobs for a PharmD?
People seem to think that the employment rate for law schools are inflated b/c law schools count jobs that pay crappy and not really for lawyers etc. as employment.
So only jobs that are really for Lawyers and pay well should count right? RIGHT, EXACTLY.
That's my point.
So if it is so "wrong" for law schools to count sh*tty jobs as employment in their stats...then why is it okay for all these pharmacy schools to report any random jobs (training) they want as jobs for a PharmD?
Read carefully: I don't care about law schools using low paying jobs to inflate their stats. I dispute your claim that pharmacy schools use residencies to "inflate" their employment stats. In my experience, pharmacy schools are MORE proud of their residency stats and promote those OVER their employment stats. I know the school where I teach does exactly that.
I asked you to back up your claims and you haven't. Do you have any links to schools that use residency stats to inflate their overall employment stats.
PS: residency isn't a "random low paying job." 🙄
This thread had a few people on there saying that the unemployment rate for the class of 2012 is around 15% to 20%.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12573770#post12573770
I will look for pharmacy school employment stats by pharmacy schools. But I am pretty sure NONE of them are telling the truth as I have never seen a pharmacy school reported a 15% or 20% unemployment rate. Why is that? Something must be inflating it. Maybe it's not residencies but it's something. Otherwise I would see reports of 15% unemployed.
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Damn this thread is getting out of hand. 🙄
My point is right here:
Here are some typical pharmacy grad employment stats:
http://www.pharmacy.purdue.edu/students/prospective/EmploymentPU11.pdf
http://www.pharmacy.purdue.edu/students/prospective/Careers.php
Now I'm not going to give any stats of my own, because it would just be anecdotal reports and I wish to protect the identities of the innocent, but also because part of my argument is that the statistics do not tell the whole story.
Here are some very plausible scenarios of what the stats do not show:
- The pharmacists who completed residencies and still could not get the jobs that they wanted. (Maybe they were limited to a certain location). Some chose to wait for the right job and be unemployed, and others went retail or per diem (underemployed). Do not assume that the institution hires their residents afterwards.
- Grads who got jobs but were only guaranteed 24-32 hours per week (underemployed).
My point is right here:
Here are some typical pharmacy grad employment stats:
http://www.pharmacy.purdue.edu/students/prospective/EmploymentPU11.pdf
http://www.pharmacy.purdue.edu/students/prospective/Careers.php
Now I'm not going to give any stats of my own, because it would just be anecdotal reports and I wish to protect the identities of the innocent, but also because part of my argument is that the statistics do not tell the whole story.
Here are some very plausible scenarios of what the stats do not show:
- The pharmacists who completed residencies and still could not get the jobs that they wanted. (Maybe they were limited to a certain location). Some chose to wait for the right job and be unemployed, and others went retail or per diem (underemployed). Do not assume that the institution hires their residents afterwards.
- Grads who got jobs but were only guaranteed 24-32 hours per week (underemployed).
Love me some good entertainment, why can't Z or mikey come in and stir up the pot a little more 😉
In all seriousness though guys, the school stats are all merely self reported by the graduates, either via a survey or straw poll by the admin staff just prior or just after graduation, and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. Ever watch "house", well "people lie"; I know peeps from my class (back in 07 in a good market (I had like 13 job offers)) that said they had a job just b/c they were embarrassed to say they didn't, or said they went into residency when they really didn't match and were going retail, I even know a one that said they didn't have a job when they really did to show the market wasn't as good as in had been in the early '00s. Point is that those stats don't really mean as much as you think. Heck, I know people who quit retail after 1 month cuz they couldn't handle it and were then unemployed for months (doesn't look good when u quit after 2 weeks lol (I even had one dude in my class that quit pharm school on his next to last rotation b/c he couldn't handle a mean preceptor and he was lazy/socially inept). Point is that I can make you stats that say whatever I want, does this mean all pharmacists are "unemployed" if they don't make 120k, H-no (guess I'd be unemployed cuz I work 36 hrs/wk and make 115, but work on the side on retail 1-3 10 hr days/wk and make an avg of 160-180k/yr btwn the two so I guess I'm homeless and hopelessly unemployed). SHC, I think you're confusing "unemployed" with "underemployed" check out the U3 and U6 from the BLS if u want an idea (though can be erroneous as well); and don't diss the residents, you might be apply for a job where they work as a director/manager someday! (couple buddies of mine go director jobs right out the residency gate and do you think they'd want to hire.someone from my class that dissed residencies all thru school?). Point is that the exit interview stats can and are easily manipulated, BUT are often an OK ballpark idea of how things are as maybe 60-80% of people are probably truly putting down what they are doing.
I wasn't trying to diss residents.
The point is pharmacy stats aren't nearly as good as they seem to be. (like Law)
I think residents are great, but the fact that they are not guarantee to be hired makes the entire process just as risky as anything else. The fact that they are not guarantee a full time position makes listing them as "employed" not really true as many of them end up unemployed as some have already stated.
The pharmacy stats might not be inflated by residencies but it is inflated by SOMETHING. Otherwise every school would have to report around ~20% unemployment.
Which I do not see any school reporting b/c they need applicants to apply to their schools.
I wasn't trying to diss residents.
The point is pharmacy stats aren't nearly as good as they seem to be. (like Law)
I think residents are great, but the fact that they are not guarantee to be hired makes the entire process just as risky as anything else. The fact that they are not guarantee a full time position makes listing them as "employed" not really true as many of them end up unemployed as some have already stated.
The pharmacy stats might not be inflated by residencies but it is inflated by SOMETHING. Otherwise every school would have to report around ~20% unemployment.
Which I do not see any school reporting b/c they need applicants to apply to their schools.
A resident (for the most part) has a better shot of getting a job than a new grad.
I wasn't trying to diss residents.
The point is pharmacy stats aren't nearly as good as they seem to be. (like Law)
I think residents are great, but the fact that they are not guarantee to be hired makes the entire process just as risky as anything else. The fact that they are not guarantee a full time position makes listing them as "employed" not really true as many of them end up unemployed as some have already stated.
The pharmacy stats might not be inflated by residencies but it is inflated by SOMETHING. Otherwise every school would have to report around ~20% unemployment.
Which I do not see any school reporting b/c they need applicants to apply to their schools.
Seems reasonable enough, I think the only thing you mentioned that they might take offense to was that they were essential unemployed. I think all you're trying to say is not that a resident is unemployed, but that it is temporary employment, and essentially residency does not guarantee a job (though you mention it does make oneself more competitive) and that schools should be more transparent with this.
Don't worry, the word is already getting out about the explosion of schools/new grads and I feel it could go one of two ways; either schools/enrollment contracts, or they continue to flood the market and like in law's lower tiered schools, "a suckers born every day" so there will continue to be endless supply of applicants and it will be a tale of the haves and have nots in pharmacy.
Agreed. It's practicially required for hospital work.
I see your point. I guess I only mention that b/c people on here were saying it is "wrong" for law schools to report low paying jobs as employment for law schools.
People think reporting low paying jobs that are temporary to inflate law school stats are wrong and bad. That's true and I agree.
However, pharmacy is just as bad as they also report low paying jobs that are temporary as employment too. This doesn't have to be residencies, I am sure there are tons of people with a PharmD degree taking jobs that are low paying b/c they can't find a full time pharmacist job. All that fall under employment of course and must mean the pharmacy profession is booming.
As far as employment or unemployment....maybe my standards are a little bit too high. LOL...
When I tell someone I am employed, I mean I am making a very good living at a great STABLE job.
If I was working at some place making $15/hr for the summer time ONLY or 1 year ONLY etc....I would tell someone I am unemployed as I do not think I would be established enough to consider myself making a good living with a great stable job. (To be fair, all that money you make as a intern or resident can be easily spent in less than a few months...so you will be left with nothing anyways! I spent all the money I made as a summer intern in 2 months...so techinically I was left with nothing anyways...so saying I am unemployed would not be a lie)
When I say I am employed. I mean I am doing GREAT and living the lifestyle I find acceptable. If I was taking a low paying job to make ends meet...then I don't think thats too good. I don't like to use words to inflate my own situation. If I am not doing good. Then I am not doing good.
I guess I just don't like telling people I am doing GREAT, when I am really not.
When I tell someone I am employed, I mean I am making a very good living at a great STABLE job.
If I was working at some place making $15/hr for the summer time ONLY or 1 year ONLY etc....I would tell someone I am unemployed as I do not think I would be established enough to consider myself making a good living with a great stable job. (To be fair, all that money you make as a intern or resident can be easily spent in less than a few months...so you will be left with nothing anyways! I spent all the money I made as a summer intern in 2 months...so techinically I was left with nothing anyways...so saying I am unemployed would not be a lie)
When I say I am employed. I mean I am doing GREAT and living the lifestyle I find acceptable. If I was taking a low paying job to make ends meet...then I don't think thats too good.
I don't like to use words to inflate my own situation. If I am not doing good. Then I am not doing good. I guess I just don't like telling people I am doing GREAT, when I am really not.
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Oh, FFS. 
So rph3664 is a pharmacist, and she's employed in the garden shop. She's an employed pharmacist. If she was a recent grad, would that count? Most would say no, but a strict "employed? yes or no" survey would put her in the "yes" column.
Residency is temporary employment, not a long-term deal. When most people say "I found a job!" they mean someplace that they will work long term. Yes, it IS a job, but it's only a 1 year deal, and when that clock runs out you could very well become unemployed.
As I've said before, $30k / 52 weeks / 60 hours/week is under $10/hr. Maybe it's not random, but it is low paying. I know you're doing it for the training and experience, etc, etc, but ultimately, you are working at the full capacity of a pharmacist and making $10/hr.All4MyDaughter said:
This exactly. We had to fill out cards, and the school takes it at face value that whatever you wrote down is what you are going to do...I know of quite a few people in my class who made up jobs to save face. My school will follow you to see if you find a job...again they are just taking the grad's word that they found a job. If it were me I might make up a job just so they would quit contacting me.
If you work for money, then no question you are employed. However, when pharmacy schools report 100% placement, I doubt most potential pharm students are thinking to themselves, oh probably a certain percent are doing one-year residencies and I bet x percent can only find part-time work etc...It's not as misleading as law school statistics, but still a little bit misleading. The best reporting system would give graphs showing percent getting part-time work, full-time work, residency, whatever. The only problem again being that it's all based off of self-reporting.
As far as employment or unemployment....maybe my standards are a little bit too high. LOL...
When I tell someone I am employed, I mean I am making a very good living at a great STABLE job.
If I was working at some place making $15/hr for the summer time ONLY or 1 year ONLY etc....I would tell someone I am unemployed as I do not think I would be established enough to consider myself making a good living with a great stable job. (To be fair, all that money you make as a intern or resident can be easily spent in less than a few months...so you will be left with nothing anyways! I spent all the money I made as a summer intern in 2 months...so techinically I was left with nothing anyways...so saying I am unemployed would not be a lie)
When I say I am employed. I mean I am doing GREAT and living the lifestyle I find acceptable. If I was taking a low paying job to make ends meet...then I don't think thats too good.
I guess I just don't like telling people I am doing GREAT, when I am really not.
You are awesome, I didn't bother to read any more than a 1/4 of the thread, but don't listen to the others with all their nonsense. Your POV is priceless. Keep on keepin' on homegirl.
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