Anesthesia difficult to obtain??

[NRAI2001]

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I ve talked to a few doctors working in the hospital (older doctors, ages 40 to 55 range) and they said that anesthesia is a very easy residency to get.

I ve talked to a few 3rd year medical students who said anesth is becoming a more and more difficult residency to obtain.

I always thought that anesthesia was a little bit more difficult than internal medicine to obtain?

Where does anesth. stand competitiveness wise?

 

[Winged Scapula]

In those "older doctor's" era, Anesthesia was quite an easy match. It has become more difficult now and ranks in the Intermediate category at most places.

You might consider searching the Anesthesia forum for your answer; I'm sure its been asked before.

 

[DO Anes]

I am an attending at a large medical center with residency. Last year we received about 400 apps for 7 spaces. We do not consider anyone for interview scoring below the 50th pctle on USMLE/COMLEX or anyone who has had to take the exams more than once. We do not consider anyone with a failing grade (below C, if noted) on their transcript. Most of our successful applicants (matched) had boards in the 90th pctle.

 

[Pass the Gas]

Anesthesiology has seen great swings in competitiveness over the years, with the current trend one of increasing competitiveness. As you can see from this link, http://gasforums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=435016, the powerpoint shows that Anesthesiology now has a lower overall match rate than both ER and Radiology. Radiology has a higher bar to match step 1 wise, but more people end up getting it each year. A unique aspect of Anesthesiology residencies, in my experience, is that they will overlook a low board score in exchange for other qualities of an applicant. The important thing to remember about Anesthesiology is that while many of the programs may be easy to get into, they are not the sort of programs you want to attend. Overall the specialty is intermediate in difficulty, with the top quartile of programs being well above average in difficulty.

I ve talked to a few doctors working in the hospital (older doctors, ages 40 to 55 range) and they said that anesthesia is a very easy residency to get.

I ve talked to a few 3rd year medical students who said anesth is becoming a more and more difficult residency to obtain.

I always thought that anesthesia was a little bit more difficult than internal medicine to obtain?

Where does anesth. stand competitiveness wise?

 

[NRAI2001]

How do DO and Carribean MD students faire in the match for anesthesia (might be a very realistic route for me if I dont get into an MD school this year). Must you be a well above applicant if you are one or the other to match into anesthesia?

 

[LADoc00]

there was a point in the not so distant past when less than 50 American med graduates chose to match in gas....AND there was a distant time when Gas was so competitive that PDs told you not even to apply unless you were AOA or from a top school.

So essentially, Gas has a history of being both the most competitive and least competitive at 2 different eras. No other speciality to my knowledge has ever done an even remotely similar drastic swing.

 

[Mman]

there was a point in the not so distant past when less than 50 American med graduates chose to match in gas....AND there was a distant time when Gas was so competitive that PDs told you not even to apply unless you were AOA or from a top school.

So essentially, Gas has a history of being both the most competitive and least competitive at 2 different eras. No other speciality to my knowledge has ever done an even remotely similar drastic swing.

A lot of the swings in popularity of anesthesia have to do with politics. The low point was the mid 90s at the peak of Bill Clinton's HMO healthcare push. It has currently been quite attractive. Some of this is because there were so few graduates (relatively speaking) in the mid to late 90s that it created a plethora of job openings that still lasts today. It could conceivably become less popular if more and more states decide that unsupervised CRNAs can provide anesthesia equivalent to an anesthesiologist. I mean why pay an MD to do it if you could pay a nurse less? That's a political debate that yet to be undertaken in any large forum and it depends who you ask how the future will turn out.

 

[VentdependenT]

How do DO and Carribean MD students faire in the match for anesthesia (might be a very realistic route for me if I dont get into an MD school this year). Must you be a well above applicant if you are one or the other to match into anesthesia?

They slide in there.🙂

You have a LONG road ahead of you my friend. Chances are you'll change your mind about 10 times before you settle on something. Just focus on getting into school for now.

 

[johankriek]

I am an attending at a large medical center with residency. Last year we received about 400 apps for 7 spaces. We do not consider anyone for interview scoring below the 50th pctle on USMLE/COMLEX or anyone who has had to take the exams more than once. We do not consider anyone with a failing grade (below C, if noted) on their transcript. Most of our successful applicants (matched) had boards in the 90th pctle.

let me ask you..

why do you base your placement decisions on something so trivial as state licensing exams.. Thats what they are.. for state licensure.. They have nothing to do with how motivated a resident is.. how intellectually curious he is, etc etc.. why would you do that? If i were making the decisions I would not even look at the scores before I interviewed them.. SO why do you?

 

[dralex]

When I was graduating from med school some many moons ago you could have been naked, drunk and right off the street and matched at almost any anesthesia program in the country. It was almost as bad for radiology. It's amazing how these two fields are coming back into vogue (both fantastic fields in my opinion!).

 

[DO Anes]

let me ask you..

why do you base your placement decisions on something so trivial as state licensing exams.. Thats what they are.. for state licensure.. They have nothing to do with how motivated a resident is.. how intellectually curious he is, etc etc.. why would you do that? If i were making the decisions I would not even look at the scores before I interviewed them.. SO why do you?

The boards are crucial for a couple of reasons:
1. It is very difficult to evaluate grades and letters from all of the different schools in the world. The boards are consistent. Motivation and intellectual curosity are nice, fuzzy subjectives, but difficult to evaluate outside of the interview and even then not very good.
2. ACGME programs live and die by their acreditation. A large part of that is the percentage of graduates passing the ABA board exams, a rigorous process. No one is interested in candidates who have demonstrated an inabllity to do well on standardized exams. Much of anesthesia is dry, dull and far removed from the action of the OR. It is difficult to study and do well without substantial effort. So... for most programs, the sun rises and sets with the exams.

 

[Misterioso]

Gents, lemme set you straight with anesthesia. What you got here is a residency for a bunch of fellas who wanted to be surgeons but somewhere long the path they decided to pack it in and do the next closest gig that would let them still hang out in the OR. Now I ain't saying all anesthesiologists once wanted to be surgeons, no more than I'm saying all boob surgeons really wanted to be plastic surgeons, but enough do that you gotta accept the facts.

Look up the residency roster at many a anesthesiology program and you'll probably find some surgery drop-outs among their ranks. And fellas that's where the sometimes uneasy relationship between gas pushers and scalpel jockeys comes from: One made it as a surgeon and the other...well didn't...and is now pushing gas for the surgeon.

Now the anesthesiologists will deny it all day long, much like ER docs will deny they're basically a 24-hour primary care/triage clinic, but you sharper fellas can see through the bull they spin and know what's really up.

 

[Top Gun]

Gents, lemme set you straight with anesthesia. What you got here is a residency for a bunch of fellas who wanted to be surgeons but somewhere long the path they decided to pack it in and do the next closest gig that would let them still hang out in the OR. Now I ain't saying all anesthesiologists once wanted to be surgeons, no more than I'm saying all boob surgeons really wanted to be plastic surgeons, but enough do that you gotta accept the facts.

Look up the residency roster at many a anesthesiology program and you'll probably find some surgery drop-outs among their ranks. And fellas that's where the sometimes uneasy relationship between gas pushers and scalpel jockeys comes from: One made it as a surgeon and the other...well didn't...and is now pushing gas for the surgeon.

Now the anesthesiologists will deny it all day long, much like ER docs will deny they're basically a 24-hour primary care/triage clinic, but you sharper fellas can see through the bull they spin and know what's really up.

So, when you fail to get into your surgery residency, are you going to go for anesthesia then?

 

[ERMudPhud]

Gents, lemme set you straight with anesthesia. ....

What's the matter Mysterymeat? Did you finish your personal statement early and you don't have any friends in med school left to play with so now you're trolling for attention?

 

[RxnMan]

OP - Check the NRMP 2007 and 2006 results for some insight.

...So essentially, Gas has a history of being both the most competitive and least competitive at 2 different eras. No other speciality to my knowledge has ever done an even remotely similar drastic swing.

I've heard of the competitiveness of Rads also changing drastically in the last 15 years, and Ortho was (decades ago) the specialty for people who graduated last in their class.

Gents, lemme set you straight with anesthesia. What you got here is a residency for a bunch of fellas who wanted to be surgeons but somewhere long the path they decided to pack it in and do the next closest gig that would let them still hang out in the OR. Now I ain't saying all anesthesiologists once wanted to be surgeons, no more than I'm saying all boob surgeons really wanted to be plastic surgeons, but enough do that you gotta accept the facts.

Look up the residency roster at many a anesthesiology program and you'll probably find some surgery drop-outs among their ranks. And fellas that's where the sometimes uneasy relationship between gas pushers and scalpel jockeys comes from: One made it as a surgeon and the other...well didn't...and is now pushing gas for the surgeon.

Now the anesthesiologists will deny it all day long, much like ER docs will deny they're basically a 24-hour primary care/triage clinic, but you sharper fellas can see through the bull they spin and know what's really up.

 

[Bertelman]

Gents, lemme set you straight with anesthesia. What you got here is a residency for a bunch of fellas who wanted to be surgeons but somewhere long the path they decided to pack it in and do the next closest gig that would let them still hang out in the OR. Now I ain't saying all anesthesiologists once wanted to be surgeons, no more than I'm saying all boob surgeons really wanted to be plastic surgeons, but enough do that you gotta accept the facts.

Look up the residency roster at many a anesthesiology program and you'll probably find some surgery drop-outs among their ranks. And fellas that's where the sometimes uneasy relationship between gas pushers and scalpel jockeys comes from: One made it as a surgeon and the other...well didn't...and is now pushing gas for the surgeon.

Now the anesthesiologists will deny it all day long, much like ER docs will deny they're basically a 24-hour primary care/triage clinic, but you sharper fellas can see through the bull they spin and know what's really up.

I was so totally waiting for a straight-shooter like yourself to set us all straight. Funny, every time I told a surgeon I was going into anesthesia, it was met with the same refrain...




"You're smart. I should have done anesthesia."




That you speak so highly of surgery tells me soooooo much about your priorities. I better search your previous posts to quench my thirst for your eloquent ramblings...

 

[Misterioso]

Funny, every time I told a surgeon I was going into anesthesia, it was met with the same refrain...

"You're smart. I should have done anesthesia."

You're not that smart if you actually believe it. They say that kind of stuff to people not going into surgery to humor them. Like when people tell a fat chick it's her personality that guys really care about.

 

[Top Gun]

You're not that smart if you actually believe it. They say that kind of stuff to people not going into surgery to humor them. Like when people tell a fat chick it's her personality that guys really care about.

Dude, have you even done a surgery rotation yet?

 

[Blade28]

You're not that smart if you actually believe it. They say that kind of stuff to people not going into surgery to humor them. Like when people tell a fat chick it's her personality that guys really care about.

Great stuff!

 

[billclinton]

You're not that smart if you actually believe it. They say that kind of stuff to people not going into surgery to humor them. Like when people tell a fat chick it's her personality that guys really care about.

anesthesia has better pay for half the hours AND no call... yeah, you would have to be stupid not to pick surgery! after all, medicine has to always be about self-sacrifice (masochism). 🙄

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

anesthesia has better pay for half the hours AND no call... yeah, you would have to be stupid not to pick surgery! after all, medicine has to always be about self-sacrifice (masochism). 🙄

Don't take call as a anesthesiologist... Are you sure about that one? Usually there's someone with gas passing ability in the room when the surgeon operates in the middle of the night.

 

[billclinton]

Don't take call as a anesthesiologist... Are you sure about that one? Usually there's someone with gas passing ability in the room when the surgeon operates in the middle of the night.

shiftwork

 

[mdjobexchange]

I think the original topic was on how difficult it was to get an anesthesia residency. I am not sure why ER docs and Surgeons are interested. Here is my opinion.

It can vary quite a bit. If you want to get into a top tier program, yes it is hard. At the same time, there are less competitive programs that are not so diffucult to get into. Some of those programs are still good training programs, some are not. If you are not the strongest candidate, choose a mid-level and a top-tier program and do a rotation there. You may not have the best grades, but if you do your reading and know you stuff when you are there, those programs can see your good points. That way, when the match comes around, they may prefer to take somebody who they know, though, they have lower grades, versus an unknown with higher grades/scores.

Don't make your choice based solely on how competitive residencies are, nor should you make it on how the lifestyle is during residency. Family med is a cake residency, but you will have to work like a dog to make 200k once you get out. Surgery has traditionally been a miserable residency, but once you are finished, you can confine your practice to breast or hemorrhoids and never take call (do all you cases at a surgery center.) The same goes for many other specialties. Some, such as CT surgery suck both in training and out.

Anesthesia can be an 80 hour a week job or a 10 hour a week job. I have friends I trained with who are doing mostly cardiac/transplant. They work crazy hours, but they do many complex procedures/cases and like the challenge. Other people I know do pain, while I have friends who have ASC jobs and work 35 hrs/week with no call. Of course, the pay corresponds with hours.

Do something you like. I hated clinic and like the OR, pharmacology, and procedures. I chose anesthesia. I looked at ER, but it is mostly clinic. I also like to make money. Anesthesia has been very rewarding. I do quite a bit of acute pain with indwelling nerve catheters. It is great to see somebody after a knee replacement who has zero pain. Especially after they had the other knee done at another hospital and were in terrible pain. Choose wisely, it is tempting to coast during your fourth year, but I would recommend to use it to be certain about your specialty choice.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I think the original topic was on how difficult it was to get an anesthesia residency. I am not sure why ER docs and Surgeons are interested.

Because EM physicians have plenty of free time to comment on the topic and Surgeons don't like to let any topic go by without the chance to say something about it (even if they don't know)!

 

[Blade28]

I think the original topic was on how difficult it was to get an anesthesia residency. I am not sure why ER docs and Surgeons are interested.

Hmmm...good point, maybe this thread should be moved to the Anesthesiology forum.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hmmm...good point, maybe this thread should be moved to the Anesthesiology forum.

As you can see by my first post to the OP, I suggested that they search over there. I have not moved it because there tends to be some "strife" if we move threads over there...or at least if I do.

 

[Blade28]

As you can see by my first post to the OP, I suggested that they search over there. I have not moved it because there tends to be some "strife" if we move threads over there...or at least if I do.

Hmmm...odd. The contentious relationship between surgeons and anesthesiologists lives on even at SDN, huh? 🙂

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hmmm...odd. The contentious relationship between surgeons and anesthesiologists lives on even at SDN, huh? 🙂

Apparently in their minds...I have never had anything but good relationships with anesthesia attendings and residents in the real world.

 

[deleted87716]

Hmmm...good point, maybe this thread should be moved to the Anesthesiology forum.

GasForums is an SDN partner site, but is maintained separately. We don't move threads back and forth.

The OP is invited to post his inquiry on GasForums himself, should he wish input from more of the anesthesia folks. Some of them have already responded in this thread.

 

[Blade28]

Ah yes, forgot they were a separate site.

 

[NRAI2001]

GasForums is an SDN partner site, but is maintained separately. We don't move threads back and forth.

The OP is invited to post his inquiry on GasForums himself, should he wish input from more of the anesthesia folks. Some of them have already responded in this thread.

Good idea, i ll do that....why is it its own forum and not an SDN run forum?

 

[deleted87716]

Good idea, i ll do that....why is it its own forum and not an SDN run forum?

The GasForums staff felt that their needs would be better met if they were able to operate outside SDN's TOS. The major reason for that had to do with some serious trolling issues that they had going on. It's actually worked out pretty well.

 

[Blade28]

The GasForums staff felt that their needs would be better met if they were able to operate outside SDN's TOS. The major reason for that had to do with some serious trolling issues that they had going on. It's actually worked out pretty well.

People from here trolling? People that aren't allowed over there? 😕

 

[Winged Scapula]

People from here trolling? People that aren't allowed over there? 😕

Mostly CRNAs trolling. The Anesthesia folks wanted to be able to handle those who were seeking to start "CRNA vs MD/DO" fights in their own manner. Those threads were pretty irritating and they've tried very hard to establish their own forum without these interruptions and antagonism.

 

[Blade28]

Mostly CRNAs trolling. The Anesthesia folks wanted to be able to handle those who were seeking to start "CRNA vs MD/DO" fights in their own manner. Those threads were pretty irritating and they've tried very hard to establish their own forum without these interruptions and antagonism.

Weird, I always thought Anesthesia liked their CRNA/PA help because it meant they could run more rooms! Shows how much I know. 🙂

 

[Winged Scapula]

Weird, I always thought Anesthesia liked their CRNA/PA help because it meant they could run more rooms! Shows how much I know. 🙂

The problem exists when CRNAs claim/boast that they know as much, if not more than MDs/DOs and should be independently practicing.

When you have a week or two available, amuse yourself by reading some of those threads over there.

 

[NRAI2001]

So back inline with the original question...I can imagine anesthesia would be difficult to match into at a large well known university program; but what about mid tier to lower tier university programs? Non-university programs (do non-uni anesth programs even exist?)??

Thanks.

 

[swpm]

Look up the residency roster at many a anesthesiology program and you'll probably find some surgery drop-outs among their ranks.

Actually, my experience has been that refugees from primary care are far, far more common than ex-surgeons. Never met a surgery "drop-out" in anesthesia, though I've known quite a few former (board certified) surgeons who bailed for lifestyle, interest, or financial reasons.

Keep posting though. We all know your kind - you have a fundamental insecurity and weakness that you mask with bravado and an ego that won't quit ... at least, it won't quit until you actually get out of med school and your delusions of grandeur come crashing down. (Assuming, of course, that your daddy's lawyer can get you through your impending professional conduct review board, or whatever mess you've brought upon yourself this week.)

Anesthesiologists don't envy surgeons any more than we envy chemical engineers. Surgery is simply a different job ... but one we don't want. Everyone here except you, the immature medical student, understands that.

Anyway, here's hoping there's a good anesthesiologist on duty to resuscitate the patient you're cutting on the day you finally crack for good.

Now, run along, find a mirror, and practice the contrite, remorseful face you're going to need for the committee.

 

[Misterioso]

Actually, my experience has been that refugees from primary care are far, far more common than ex-surgeons. Never met a surgery "drop-out" in anesthesia, though I've known quite a few former (board certified) surgeons who bailed for lifestyle, interest, or financial reasons.

Yeah right. Maybe surgeons from other countries who didn't get into surgery here, but "quite a few" former U.S. board certified surgeons voluntarily deciding after all that work that they're "interested" in gas pushing instead...riiiight. That's like claiming you know "quite a few" pro ball players deciding they're interested in the minors instead.

 

[swpm]

Yeah right. Maybe surgeons from other countries who didn't get into surgery here, but "quite a few" former U.S. board certified surgeons voluntarily deciding after all that work that they're "interested" in gas pushing instead...riiiight. That's like claiming you know "quite a few" pro ball players deciding they're interested in the minors instead.

🙄 To be precise, two at my current institution where I'm a resident, two at the main teaching hospital affiliated with my med school, and one at a third hospital where I did an out rotation as an MS4.

None are foreign grads, though in fairness one of them said he regrets leaving surgery (but now 25+ years in he thinks it's too late in his career to go back).

But go on believing what you want to believe ... it's just one more sign of a weak mind.

 

[emergence10]

Are you high?