Anesthesiology ranking near the bottom for both burnout and job satisfaction

[jope]

Just came across this study on Jama Open titled “

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians”​

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians

This cross-sectional study describes the prevalence of burnout, professional fulfillment, and intention to leave among physicians at academic-affiliated health care systems and identifies institutional and individual factors associated with intention to leave.

jamanetwork.com

I had no idea that we ranked so low and question it a bit.

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[aneftp]

Women anesthesia docs in general leave the workforce (or go down from 1.0 status much earlier than men).

That’s according to the asa study back in 2013.

Workforce unhappiness is a collateral consequence of DEI (diversity equity inclusivity).

That’s my take. And this article clearly ignores DEI impact on physician unhappiness and intent to leave the work force.

 

[MirrorTodd]

Women anesthesia docs in general leave the workforce (or go down from 1.0 status much earlier than men).

That’s according to the asa study back in 2013.

Workforce unhappiness is a collateral consequence of DEI (diversity equity inclusivity).

That’s my take. And this article clearly ignores DEI impact on physician unhappiness and intent to leave the work force.

I mean...out of all the variables related to people wanting to leave the Anesthesia work force, you landed on DEI?

 

[psychbender]

Just came across this study on Jama Open titled “

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians”​

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians

This cross-sectional study describes the prevalence of burnout, professional fulfillment, and intention to leave among physicians at academic-affiliated health care systems and identifies institutional and individual factors associated with intention to leave.

jamanetwork.com

I had no idea that we ranked so low and question it a bit.View attachment 380886

You don't think you or your colleagues have low job satisfaction and a high rate of burnout? Really? For every SDN 99%er that leaves at 10am, and clears $1mil for 25 hours per week of work, you have fifty poor sods grinding it out well into the evening every day, facing decreasing reimbursement, and a worse job environment (more medical direction or higher ratios, more call, inefficient scheduling of cases), for maybe $350-450k. We talk about this **** on the forum all the time. This very much matches my n=1 personal experience.

Also, check the fine print of the study. The survey was conducted during the first year or so of Covid, and may skew things a touch.

 

[somedudehere]

Peak COVID...no elective cases...PACUs turned into ICUs, no **** lol

 

[pgg]

Just came across this study on Jama Open titled “

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians”​

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians

This cross-sectional study describes the prevalence of burnout, professional fulfillment, and intention to leave among physicians at academic-affiliated health care systems and identifies institutional and individual factors associated with intention to leave.

jamanetwork.com

I had no idea that we ranked so low and question it a bit.

Well

It says "academic physicians" right in the title. It should be no shock that their primary endpoint of intention-to-leave within 2 years was high. Seems like the natural career path is that most people exit academics at some point and never go back.

I didn't see the actual survey questions in the article or the supplements, but the methodology for defining burnout vs fulfilled struck me a little odd. Same likert scale but >3.3/10 = burnout but you need >7.5/10 to be fulfilled? Call me a cynic but that looks like someone designed a study to find evidence for a conclusion they'd already made.

I think it's widely agreed that COVID has really been hard on healthcare workers, not to mention society in general, and while we gather here to gripe a lot, objectively we're still in a good spot.

Sure I've got symptoms of burnout and some days are worse than others. But on the whole, this life is pretty good.

 

[aneftp]

I mean...out of all the variables related to people wanting to leave the Anesthesia work force, you landed on DEI?

It’s true. It’s the 800 pound gorilla in the room. My surgeon male friends laugh at DEI. Cause the women surgeons tend to quit or go part time earlier.

Again. Read the Asa study dates 2013 on women anesthesia docs leaving work force or part time. You ur google search. And it’s 10 years later and even more women in the field.

 

[sevo00]

This is the dumbest study I’ve ever seen in my life. I’ve come across this before it’s a complete joke and no one should pay it any mind. Neurosurgeons are less burned out than dermatologists? Give me a ****in break

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Just came across this study on Jama Open titled “

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians”​

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians

This cross-sectional study describes the prevalence of burnout, professional fulfillment, and intention to leave among physicians at academic-affiliated health care systems and identifies institutional and individual factors associated with intention to leave.

jamanetwork.com

I had no idea that we ranked so low and question it a bit.View attachment 380886

They put rheumatology near the bottom despite it literally being one of the lightest scheduled specialties with literally zero call, so yeah, I’d question their methodology…

 

[chessknt]

Pulmonary being the worst tracks

 

[GravelRider]

They put rheumatology near the bottom despite it literally being one of the lightest scheduled specialties with literally zero call, so yeah, I’d question their methodology…

Have you ever rotated through a rheumatology clinic? It’s like chronic pain on steroids…literally.

 

[neutro]

Invalid study
Need these addressed
- no control for call?
- no control for late nights?
- no control for selection of assignments and surgeons or equity or vote in call schedule
- no control on type and timing of pto/ vacation

If you can personally manage the above issues, I’d say anesthesia is a pretty decent specialty

 

[rowsdower88]

It’s true. It’s the 800 pound gorilla in the room. My surgeon male friends laugh at DEI. Cause the women surgeons tend to quit or go part time earlier.

Again. Read the Asa study dates 2013 on women anesthesia docs leaving work force or part time. You ur google search. And it’s 10 years later and even more women in the field.

A problem you're going to run into if you think about this more will be the evidence that women leave medicine (or go part time) in general more often than men. So you would have to find a better explanation for why anesthesiologists and other specialties in that quadrant are facing greater burnout and less fulfillment when other specialties with similar female attrition rates aren't.

You might be able to argue that female attrition is significantly higher in anesthesia than other specialties (or is a commonality among specialties in the bottom right quadrant), if you had evidence for that that would be interesting.

HBR article talking about why women are more likely to leave medicine earlier:

Why So Many Women Physicians Are Quitting

Huge numbers of women physicians are cutting back or quitting and taking jobs that offer them more flexibility in terms of hours and the ability to work from home. This withdrawal is creating a crisis for health care organizations — one that promises to deepen in the years ahead if it isn’t...

hbr.org

 

[<(^_^)>]

You don't think you or your colleagues have low job satisfaction and a high rate of burnout? Really? For every SDN 99%er that leaves at 10am, and clears $1mil for 25 hours per week of work, you have fifty poor sods grinding it out well into the evening every day, facing decreasing reimbursement, and a worse job environment (more medical direction or higher ratios, more call, inefficient scheduling of cases), for maybe $350-450k. We talk about this **** on the forum all the time. This very much matches my n=1 personal experience.

Also, check the fine print of the study. The survey was conducted during the first year or so of Covid, and may skew things a touch.

Hey now, they clear 1 million doing a totally sustainable schedule of 72 hour weekend calls directly into a 50 hour M-F job.

 

[pgg]

Hey now, they clear 1 million doing a totally sustainable schedule of 72 hour weekend calls directly into a 50 hour M-F job.

And they think they're winning at life.

 

[Dr. Rude]

And they think they're winning at life.

depends on the metric you choose to care about. Biggest 1040, most toys, etc. is the winner to some people. I suspect those that believe that come to change their view later in life.

 

[aneftp]

And they think they're winning at life.

I got 12 weeks of vacation this year. I had 11 weeks off last year.

Multiple vacations.

Home every weeknight by 1-4 pm. I pick and chose which weekends I want to work.

So yes. I am winning at the game of life.

 

[aneftp]

A problem you're going to run into if you think about this more will be the evidence that women leave medicine (or go part time) in general more often than men. So you would have to find a better explanation for why anesthesiologists and other specialties in that quadrant are facing greater burnout and less fulfillment when other specialties with similar female attrition rates aren't.

You might be able to argue that female attrition is significantly higher in anesthesia than other specialties (or is a commonality among specialties in the bottom right quadrant), if you had evidence for that that would be interesting.

HBR article talking about why women are more likely to leave medicine earlier:

Why So Many Women Physicians Are Quitting

Huge numbers of women physicians are cutting back or quitting and taking jobs that offer them more flexibility in terms of hours and the ability to work from home. This withdrawal is creating a crisis for health care organizations — one that promises to deepen in the years ahead if it isn’t...

hbr.org

Very simple. Most of the women anesthesiologists are not the primary bread winners in the family who leave or go part time.

That harvard fails to mention where the other source of income is coming from when women go part time.

And it’s 2024 now. Most of the male doctors (and I’m older) do a ton of household work and help with kids. I’ve done 100% of the laundry in the house since kids born. I clean up the dishes after the spouse cooks and she’s a great cook. I take
Kids to cheer, tennis, baseball growing up. And still do. I do a lot. It’s not just all professional work.

So the Harvard article is clearly sexist in the wrong direction. Most of my male doctor friends do a lot. Even my male plastic surgeon friend who clears more than 2 million (we have known each other for over 3 decades since freshman year in college and med school and room together). He still cleans his own house. He has a stay a home wife. She does most of the Uber mom stuff for their 3 kids. But He takes kids to school on his non operating room days. He cooks half the time. He does homework with kids. He does a ton. So thinking the traditional male doctor just works and let’s stay at home spouse do stuff is old fashion.

Do female doctors do a lot of household work? Absolutely 100% agree. But male doctors these days pickup their fair share of
Household work these days.

 

[nimbus]

Very simple. Most of the women anesthesiologists are not the primary bread winners in the family who leave or go part time.

That harvard fails to mention where the other source of income is coming from when women go part time.

And it’s 2024 now. Most of the male doctors (and I’m older) do a ton of household work and help with kids. I’ve done 100% of the laundry in the house since kids born. I clean up the dishes after the spouse cooks and she’s a great cook. I take
Kids to cheer, tennis, baseball growing up. And still do. I do a lot. It’s not just all professional work.

So the Harvard article is clearly sexist in the wrong direction. Most of my male doctor friends do a lot. Even my male plastic surgeon friend who clears more than 2 million (we have known each other for over 3 decades since freshman year in college and med school and room together). He still cleans his own house. He has a stay a home wife. She does most of the Uber mom stuff for their 3 kids. But He takes kids to school on his non operating room days. He cooks half the time. He does homework with kids. He does a ton. So thinking the traditional male doctor just works and let’s stay at home spouse do stuff is old fashion.

Do female doctors do a lot of household work? Absolutely 100% agree. But male doctors these days pickup their fair share of
Household work these days.

Unless they’re out of town or commuting 2 hrs a day doing locums.

 

[rowsdower88]

Very simple. Most of the women anesthesiologists are not the primary bread winners in the family who leave or go part time.

That harvard fails to mention where the other source of income is coming from when women go part time.

And it’s 2024 now. Most of the male doctors (and I’m older) do a ton of household work and help with kids. I’ve done 100% of the laundry in the house since kids born. I clean up the dishes after the spouse cooks and she’s a great cook. I take
Kids to cheer, tennis, baseball growing up. And still do. I do a lot. It’s not just all professional work.

So the Harvard article is clearly sexist in the wrong direction. Most of my male doctor friends do a lot. Even my male plastic surgeon friend who clears more than 2 million (we have known each other for over 3 decades since freshman year in college and med school and room together). He still cleans his own house. He has a stay a home wife. She does most of the Uber mom stuff for their 3 kids. But He takes kids to school on his non operating room days. He cooks half the time. He does homework with kids. He does a ton. So thinking the traditional male doctor just works and let’s stay at home spouse do stuff is old fashion.

Do female doctors do a lot of household work? Absolutely 100% agree. But male doctors these days pickup their fair share of
Household work these days.

I'm not sure what you're arguing. Are you saying women anesthesiologists in particular aren't primary breadwinners, but women in other specialties are - which leads to more dissatisfaction in anesthesia (and other specialties in that quadrant) in particular?

Also, the HBR linked a study suggesting women physicians still disproportionately bear the brunt of housework and childcare. So anecdotally you can say you're doing your part, and it seems like many male partners are, but there is still a disparity.

 

[aneftp]

I'm not sure what you're arguing. Are you saying women anesthesiologists in particular aren't primary breadwinners, but women in other specialties are - which leads to more dissatisfaction in anesthesia (and other specialties in that quadrant) in particular?

Also, the HBR linked a study suggesting women physicians still disproportionately bear the brunt of housework and childcare. So anecdotally you can say you're doing your part, and it seems like many male partners are, but there is still a disparity.

I am saying money drives the world. Sex , money, power. It’s as old as forever those three things.

Women physicians who leave the workforce early have access to partner with secondary income.

Yes. I do know women anesthesiologists who work like dogs. But they are primary bread winners.

These studies are so flawed as to the reasons why women leave or go part time. It money driven.

We are all “burned” out. I can work 32 hours a week like my average m-f job in December. Home every day before 3pm. Even if I’m not working my side gig. I have job dissatisfaction also. You know? It’s all relative. What exactly is dissatisfaction? Because I was pissed off I didn’t get out by 1130am as early out and left at 1230pm. That’s my job dissatisfaction. I was really pissed off that day. And I will cite that.

Women get dissatisfaction more than men for whatever reasons. That’s just facts. Read it. Google it. Educated women are 90% driving factors for initiation of divorces. Those are FACTS I’m stating. So burnout is just another reason to cite the job as not ful filling.

 

[bronx43]

They put rheumatology near the bottom despite it literally being one of the lightest scheduled specialties with literally zero call, so yeah, I’d question their methodology…

I don't question their methodologies at all. This is what I've been saying this whole time. I was in academics, where this study took place. Rheumatology in fakedemics is DEFINITELY on the bottom in terms of fulfillment and highest in burnout. Imagine getting pounded with dumps from community docs 5 days a week, while making $140k. Existence in fakedemic rheumatology is barely tolerable.

If you did this study for rural or even private suburban rheumatologists, I bet we would likely be near the bottom in burnout and middle of road for fulfillment.

 

[MirrorTodd]

I don't question their methodologies at all. This is what I've been saying this whole time. I was in academics, where this study took place. Rheumatology in fakedemics is DEFINITELY on the bottom in terms of fulfillment and highest in burnout. Imagine getting pounded with dumps from community docs 5 days a week, while making $140k. Existence in fakedemic rheumatology is barely tolerable.

If you did this study for rural or even private suburban rheumatologists, I bet we would likely be near the bottom in burnout and middle of road for fulfillment.

Seems like the data is skewed and not actually representative of physician burnout overall then?

 

[bronx43]

Seems like the data is skewed and not actually representative of physician burnout overall then?

Well, the authors never claimed it was an overarching representation of all physician burnout. So, if we take that interpretation, then the data is horribly skewed.
I can't speak for other specialties, but for rheumatology, there is definitely a wide chasm between fakedemics and the community. At my previous ivory tower institution, more than half the FTE has turned over in the past 3 years.

 

[aneftp]

Funny how I’m very good friends with female radiation oncology. While she loves taking care of her patients. She’s grown to hate her job. Her group of rad onc friends all share the same sentiment These are people making twice as much as anesthesia working 4 days a week with almost zero emergency calls.

I think overall job dissatisfaction with physicians is high in general. It’s just corporate medicine.

That’s why I advocate takin a job with no calls. Or if u are gonna to have regular beeper or overnight calls. To get at least 15 weeks off if panel. Even those with no overnight calls should the to work 4 days a week with 9-10’weeks off.

 

[caligas]

Meh. I enjoy my work, take a ton of time off, and have achieved financial independence before 50. Ignore the noise.

 

[Sriddymopboi]

Funny how I’m very good friends with female radiation oncology. While she loves taking care of her patients. She’s grown to hate her job. Her group of rad onc friends all share the same sentiment These are people making twice as much as anesthesia working 4 days a week with almost zero emergency calls.

I think overall job dissatisfaction with physicians is high in general. It’s just corporate medicine.

That’s why I advocate takin a job with no calls. Or if u are gonna to have regular beeper or overnight calls. To get at least 15 weeks off if panel. Even those with no overnight calls should the to work 4 days a week with 9-10’weeks off.

Can you PM me? I'm a resident and want to show you a job offer and want to hear your thoughts on it

 

[caligas]

Can you PM me? I'm a resident and want to show you a job offer and want to hear your thoughts on it

Just post, we’ll break it down for ya

 

[nimbus]

Many of the most gratifying moments I’ve had at work happened in the middle of the night while I was on call.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Many of the most gratifying moments I’ve had at work happened in the middle of the night while I was on call.

Different strokes for different folks. I could do boring asa1 cases peeling out at 3pm with my middle finger in the air for the rest of my career and be completely happy.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Many of the most gratifying moments I’ve had at work happened in the middle of the night while I was on call.

you mean intellectually stimulating and/or interesting cases?
or you mean napping in the call room?

 

[MirrorTodd]

you mean intellectually stimulating and/or interesting cases?
or you mean napping in the call room?

I'm thinking Grey's Anatomy status.

 

[dumbmedstudent]

you mean intellectually stimulating and/or interesting cases?
or you mean napping in the call room?

Napping or fapping? 🤔

 

[anbuitachi]

Just came across this study on Jama Open titled “

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians”​

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians

This cross-sectional study describes the prevalence of burnout, professional fulfillment, and intention to leave among physicians at academic-affiliated health care systems and identifies institutional and individual factors associated with intention to leave.

jamanetwork.com

I had no idea that we ranked so low and question it a bit.View attachment 380886

zero surprise

i always knew we have high burnout rates and low fulfillment in academia. theres like zero respect. i still remember during peak covid we were going around intubating covid patients one after another. when the covid vaccines first rolled out, and they had to separate people into tiers, with highest risk doctors having access to vaccine first. anesthesiologists were left out of first tier!

 

[Splenda88]

Funny how I’m very good friends with female radiation oncology. While she loves taking care of her patients. She’s grown to hate her job. Her group of rad onc friends all share the same sentiment These are people making twice as much as anesthesia working 4 days a week with almost zero emergency calls.

I think overall job dissatisfaction with physicians is high in general. It’s just corporate medicine.

That’s why I advocate takin a job with no calls. Or if u are gonna to have regular beeper or overnight calls. To get at least 15 weeks off if panel. Even those with no overnight calls should the to work 4 days a week with 9-10’weeks off.

Twice as much! I guess my friend has gotten a bad deal since he is only making 500-550k/yr working 5 days/week.

The fact of the matter is physicians are a bunch of discontent individuals overall.

 

[nimbus]

zero surprise

i always knew we have high burnout rates and low fulfillment in academia. theres like zero respect. i still remember during peak covid we were going around intubating covid patients one after another. when the covid vaccines first rolled out, and they had to separate people into tiers, with highest risk doctors having access to vaccine first. anesthesiologists were left out of first tier!

That’s odd. Everybody in our department who was at work got the vaccine on the first afternoon it was available. I remember breaking each other out of cases to go get vaxxed.

 

[anbuitachi]

Twice as much! I guess my friend has gotten a bad deal since he is only making 500-550k/yr working 5 days/week.

The fact of the matter is physicians are a bunch of discontent individuals overall.

Everyone has their own reasons but im not surprised at all.

For myself, i know 500-550k is a LOT of money compared to general public. but i dont compare to general public. when i do compare, its with 'peers', people i went to college with, and HS as well (its a good HS), or people I hang out with. Even though 500k is a lot of money, i would say my wealth is far below that of my peers my age. its just too difficult to make up that 10 year difference you lost. (you start at -300k at age 30, while they are +500k or more). Many physicians are smart, hard workers, went to decent school, and got high GPAs. I'm in my 30s, and most of HS/college friends are in STEM, making very good money (most people go to tech, finance/business, maybe because they are large fields). On average, they are around director/comparable level at banks, or around L5 level in large tech companies. They will continue to make more and more money as they age and get promoted, while i feel like i've reached a "peak" in compensation. Honestly feel like i will never catch up to them financially, but I have come to accept that... A couple of my tech friends already retired. 0 of my physician friends (and i know way more physicians) have retired in 30s. I think physicians have done VERY well in the past, maybe 1980s or so, especially compared to other careers.

And that is with myself working far more than them. Most people not in medicine dont do any nights, and very few weekends, get most holidays off, and have very flexible schedules. My banker friends are telling me they are still hybrid schedule, WFH few days a week. I can never WFH imo if i do clinical anesthesiology. When i get to office, my non doc friends are likely still in bed..

There are tons of other factors as well, and I mentioned it varies a lot depending on who you are, your surroundings, etc. Lack of autonomy; tons of regulation; admin overreach; decreasing reimbursement; lack of respect.. etc etc

 

[Splenda88]

@anbuitachi

Like it or not, we have to compare ourselves to the general public.

Your household income put you at the top 1% and you think because you are not at the top 0.5% like some of your HS classmates, you aren't doing ok.

Going into medicine, we all knew working night and weekend sometimes is something we have to accept unless we choose a few selected specialties

Imagine the PhD professor at a CC who is making 75k/yr reading your post.

 

[nimbus]

Everyone has their own reasons but im not surprised at all.

For myself, i know 500-550k is a LOT of money compared to general public. but i dont compare to general public. when i do compare, its with 'peers', people i went to college with, and HS as well (its a good HS), or people I hang out with. Even though 500k is a lot of money, i would say my wealth is far below that of my peers my age. its just too difficult to make up that 10 year difference you lost. (you start at -300k at age 30, while they are +500k or more). Many physicians are smart, hard workers, went to decent school, and got high GPAs. I'm in my 30s, and most of HS/college friends are in STEM, making very good money (most people go to tech, finance/business, maybe because they are large fields). On average, they are around director/comparable level at banks, or around L5 level in large tech companies. They will continue to make more and more money as they age and get promoted, while i feel like i've reached a "peak" in compensation. Honestly feel like i will never catch up to them financially, but I have come to accept that... A couple of my tech friends already retired. 0 of my physician friends (and i know way more physicians) have retired in 30s. I think physicians have done VERY well in the past, maybe 1980s or so, especially compared to other careers.

And that is with myself working far more than them. Most people not in medicine dont do any nights, and very few weekends, get most holidays off, and have very flexible schedules. My banker friends are telling me they are still hybrid schedule, WFH few days a week. I can never WFH imo if i do clinical anesthesiology. When i get to office, my non doc friends are likely still in bed..

There are tons of other factors as well, and I mentioned it varies a lot depending on who you are, your surroundings, etc. Lack of autonomy; tons of regulation; admin overreach; decreasing reimbursement; lack of respect.. etc etc

I’m gen X. You are younger than me. If wealth and income were the top priority for you, why did you choose medicine which you knew has a lower ceiling than finance and tech? Especially if your friends were going into those fields? We have all known that since the 1990s.

 

[anbuitachi]

I’m gen X. You are younger than me. If wealth and income were the top priority for you, why did you choose medicine which you knew has a lower ceiling than finance and tech? Especially if your friends were going into those fields? We have all known that since the 1990s.

honestly, i did not know this, neither did my pre med friends in college. real life was very different than expectations, and there was very little guidance from hs or college. parents were immigrants since they knew nothing either. and honestly unless you know what to search for, internet wasnt that helpful back then either in my opinion. most of the info we had in terms of money, compared physician salary to other jobs, and physician was usually higher (because many other jobs are entry level or balanced out by entry salaries). it was very difficult as a college student, to understand your own potential. never did i think my friends would commonly be directors at major banks, or mid/uppermid levels in big techs inn their 30s. i had no idea what it took to even achieve that. also the last 15 years was an explosion in tech. my decisions were all made prior to that. i definitely had zero clue about this stuff in college/HS. i was deciding between CS vs medicine though in HS when i was applying for college. ended up doing medicine. back then i still remember, the guidance i got was medicine is very stable. CS you can lose your job anytime, and you sit infront of a computer all day long, its tough on your body. well funny thing is 15-20 years later, now sitting infront of a computer all day is pretty common in many jobs... and CS has jobs everywhere. and no one back then explained to me about all the paperwork, insurance issues, admin stuff, that came with medicine job. (honestly probably wouldnt even have truly really understood it as a teenager even if it was told to me)

i didnt go into medicine for the money. but money of course plays a role. if medicine made 50k a year and has same amount of work, no way id be in medicine.

 

[anbuitachi]

@anbuitachi

Like it or not, we have to compare ourselves to the general public.

Your household income put you at the top 1% and you think because you are not at the top 0.5% like some of your HS classmates, you aren't doing ok.

Going into medicine, we all knew working night and weekend sometimes is something we have to accept unless we choose a few selected specialties

Imagine the PhD professor at a CC who is making 75k/yr reading your post.

i completely disagree with that we have to compare ourselves to the general public. you can easily apply what you are saying to the world. our poorest are still doing extremely well on a global standard. but not many people will tell our poorest they should feel good they have a shelter and dont have to walk miles to get water from a river like many have to do in third world countries in africa, asia, south america.
after graduating from a good HS and college, i couldve become a cashier at target for 20$ a hr in nyc, and id still be way ahead of most people income wise in the world. but it doesnt mean i'll be grateful and feel good because of that

like it or not, comparing to those around you IMO is pretty standard. because thats what impacts how someone feels.

--
and your comment about phd professor at a CC reminded me of a funny story. when i was in college, one of my parents friend is a chemistry professor at a CC, and we talked a bit about how my classes in college were going. i remember saying my homeworks are pretty tough, and he offered to help. i said sure, sent him my problem set homework. he told me a few days later he has no idea how to do them so he cant even give me suggestions. anyway, my wife has a phd in science, she doesnt understand why anyone would do academia because its so poorly paid. she left academia as soon as possible for a industry job. Its like graduating from med school/residency, only to just do research in a lab

 

[coffeebythelake]

i completely disagree with that we have to compare ourselves to the general public. you can easily apply what you are saying to the world. our poorest are still doing extremely well on a global standard. but not many people will tell our poorest they should feel good they have a shelter and dont have to walk miles to get water from a river like many have to do in third world countries in africa, asia, south america.
after graduating from a good HS and college, i couldve become a cashier at target for 20$ a hr in nyc, and id still be way ahead of most people income wise in the world. but it doesnt mean i'll be grateful and feel good because of that

like it or not, comparing to those around you IMO is pretty standard. because thats what impacts how someone feels.

--
and your comment about phd professor at a CC reminded me of a funny story. when i was in college, one of my parents friend is a chemistry professor at a CC, and we talked a bit about how my classes in college were going. i remember saying my homeworks are pretty tough, and he offered to help. i said sure, sent him my problem set homework. he told me a few days later he has no idea how to do them so he cant even give me suggestions. anyway, my wife has a phd in science, she doesnt understand why anyone would do academia because its so poorly paid. she left academia as soon as possible for a industry job. Its like graduating from med school/residency, only to just do research in a lab

we're not CEOs or stock brokers or property developers or other business people who make tremendous wealth. but unfortunately because we interact frequently with the general public, it makes us easy targets for them to "pass judgement" on how much we make and opine that "doctors make too much money". it's all about perception. they see a big dollar sign on the doctor's salary and don't understand that starting our professional careers 10+ years behind everyone else makes a HUGE effect on our lifetime earnings. All this years of training is there to make us safe, competent and skilled at what we do.

Meanwhile nurses seem to be riding on the whole Florence Nightingale perception... meanwhile: VA nurses that can't be bothered to check on their patients or even draw bloodwork... floor nurses making $120,000-150,000 a year in NYC... midlevel nurses making more than some doctors doing med-spas... and nurse anesthetists demanding the same pay as anesthesiologists with a fraction of the knowledge and training.

It's stupid and it's ****ed.

 

[anbuitachi]

we're not CEOs or stock brokers or property developers or other business people who make tremendous wealth. but unfortunately because we interact frequently with the general public, it makes us easy targets for them to "pass judgement" on how much we make and opine that "doctors make too much money". it's all about perception. they see a big dollar sign on the doctor's salary and don't understand that starting our professional careers 10+ years behind everyone else makes a HUGE effect on our lifetime earnings. All this years of training is there to make us safe, competent and skilled at what we do.

Meanwhile nurses seem to be riding on the whole Florence Nightingale perception... meanwhile: VA nurses that can't be bothered to check on their patients or even draw bloodwork... floor nurses making $120,000-150,000 a year in NYC... midlevel nurses making more than some doctors doing med-spas... and nurse anesthetists demanding the same pay as anesthesiologists with a fraction of the knowledge and training.

It's stupid and it's ****ed.

yes for sure. its very stupid. but general public do not care.

i just watched a video. doctors make up the largest percentage of the top 1% by income. from 2019 numbers, you only need about 550k to be top 1% in income. however, from the same year 2019, to be part of the top 1% in wealth, you need to have at LEAST 11M. Most doctors do not have 11M. And thats 2019. Many articles say wealth has increased drastically, by about 32% since then, which is consistent with how much money government printed. So i imagine in 2024, to be top 1% in wealth, you need around 15M. Thats 1 in 100 households with over 15M. Most doctors i know do not reach close to this number. Some surgical subspecialties maybe do

it just shows you the difference between income and wealth, and how doctors start so late drastically affects wealth. and the lack of raises and promotions over ones career affects it too

 

[pgg]

Everyone has their own reasons but im not surprised at all.

For myself, i know 500-550k is a LOT of money compared to general public. but i dont compare to general public. when i do compare, its with 'peers', people i went to college with, and HS as well (its a good HS), or people I hang out with. Even though 500k is a lot of money, i would say my wealth is far below that of my peers my age. its just too difficult to make up that 10 year difference you lost. (you start at -300k at age 30, while they are +500k or more). Many physicians are smart, hard workers, went to decent school, and got high GPAs. I'm in my 30s, and most of HS/college friends are in STEM, making very good money (most people go to tech, finance/business, maybe because they are large fields). On average, they are around director/comparable level at banks, or around L5 level in large tech companies. They will continue to make more and more money as they age and get promoted, while i feel like i've reached a "peak" in compensation. Honestly feel like i will never catch up to them financially, but I have come to accept that... A couple of my tech friends already retired. 0 of my physician friends (and i know way more physicians) have retired in 30s. I think physicians have done VERY well in the past, maybe 1980s or so, especially compared to other careers.

And that is with myself working far more than them. Most people not in medicine dont do any nights, and very few weekends, get most holidays off, and have very flexible schedules. My banker friends are telling me they are still hybrid schedule, WFH few days a week. I can never WFH imo if i do clinical anesthesiology. When i get to office, my non doc friends are likely still in bed..

There are tons of other factors as well, and I mentioned it varies a lot depending on who you are, your surroundings, etc. Lack of autonomy; tons of regulation; admin overreach; decreasing reimbursement; lack of respect.. etc etc

My brother in anesthesia,

You live in a VHCOL area and are choosing to stay at a job that has become legendary on this forum for paying terribly under lousy conditions.

You've got options. Your compensation has only peaked because you won't leave for a better job. Stop torturing yourself.

 

[GravelRider]

My brother in anesthesia,

You live in a VHCOL area and are choosing to stay at a job that has become legendary on this forum for paying terribly under lousy conditions.

You've got options. Your compensation has only peaked because you won't leave for a better job. Stop torturing yourself.

But he has so many DoorDash options…

Sometimes I wonder if @anbuitachi is just a legendary satire character. He’s already a forum hall of famer for having the worst job ever…no matter who you compare it to.

 

[Splenda88]

yes for sure. its very stupid. but general public do not care.

i just watched a video. doctors make up the largest percentage of the top 1% by income. from 2019 numbers, you only need about 550k to be top 1% in income. however, from the same year 2019, to be part of the top 1% in wealth, you need to have at LEAST 11M. Most doctors do not have 11M. And thats 2019. Many articles say wealth has increased drastically, by about 32% since then, which is consistent with how much money government printed. So i imagine in 2024, to be top 1% in wealth, you need around 15M. Thats 1 in 100 households with over 15M. Most doctors i know do not reach close to this number. Some surgical subspecialties maybe do

it just shows you the difference between income and wealth, and how doctors start so late drastically affects wealth. and the lack of raises and promotions over ones career affects it too

Most doctors have the ability to have a net worth of 11 mil after 30 yrs of employment if they live within their means and have had no divorces etc...

Maxing out 401k, IRA, HSA and also invest another 2.5k/month in an S&P500 for 30 yrs will net someone 11 mil.

The issues are most of us don't do that.

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.

archive.nytimes.com

 

[anbuitachi]

Most doctors have the ability to have a net worth of 11 mil after 30 yrs of employment if they live within their means and have had no divorces etc...

Maxing out 401k, IRA, HSA and also invest another 2.5k/month in an S&P500 for 30 yrs will net someone 11 mil.

The issues are most of us don't do that.

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

Explore the occupations and industries of the nation's wealthiest households.

archive.nytimes.com

have the ability... i guess so? you never know.
live within their means... so basically dont live like a top 1%, live like a resident? like bottom few percentile?
have had no divorces... i dont think doctors enter marriages with plans to divorce lol.

maxing out 401k, ira, hsa, and another 2.5k? i dont even have a hsa. my employer doesnt even offer HSA!.

yea stars have to line up, and you have a chance.

reminds me of those articles i read online about how people in normal jobs like teachers can retire with millions.

---
looking at my retirement account is pretty depressing. its up like 10% TOTAL in the past 5 years since i started contributing

 

[Splenda88]

But he has so many DoorDash options…

Sometimes I wonder if @anbuitachi is just a legendary satire character. He’s already a forum hall of famer for having the worst job ever…no matter who you compare it to.

Oh ok.

I was not familiar with the poster.

I thought he was out of touch when he complained that he ONLY makes 550k/yr while some of his HS classmates make a lot more.

 

[anbuitachi]

But he has so many DoorDash options…

Sometimes I wonder if @anbuitachi is just a legendary satire character. He’s already a forum hall of famer for having the worst job ever…no matter who you compare it to.

i did order from doordash twice today

 

[Splenda88]

have the ability... i guess so? you never know.
live within their means... so basically dont live like a top 1%, live like a resident? like bottom few percentile?
have had no divorces... i dont think doctors enter marriages with plans to divorce lol.

maxing out 401k, ira, hsa, and another 2.5k? i dont even have a hsa. my employer doesnt even offer HSA!.

yea stars have to line up, and you have a chance.

reminds me of those articles i read online about how people in normal jobs like teachers can retire with millions.

---
looking at my retirement account is pretty depressing. its up like 10% TOTAL in the past 5 years since i started contributing

Are you saying you can't invest 60k/yr on a 550k salary?

Do you invest in an S&P500?

My account was up > 20% last year.