Anonymous Attending Salary Poll

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

As an attending psychiatrist, what is your current salary?

  • <$125,000

    Votes: 8 17.0%

  • $125,000-$175,000

    Votes: 6 12.8%

  • $175,001-$225,000

    Votes: 16 34.0%

  • $225,001-$275,000

    Votes: 10 21.3%

  • $275,001-$325,000

    Votes: 2 4.3%

  • $325,000+

    Votes: 5 10.6%
  • Total voters
    47
Chimed said:
Nice try, but you'll likely not get a lot of responses as openly discussing salary is typically frowned upon. I could be wrong.

Here is a an easier way to find this:

http://www1.salary.com/Psychiatrist-salary.html

http://www.healthcaresalaryonline.com/psychiatrist-salary.html

http://www.psychiatristsalary101.com/
Click to expand...

Being an anonymous survey, it's not really an open question. And it's useful information to give to your colleagues who are starting out in their career. Some of us don't have trust funds or spouses who are physicians, so knowing people's salaries is important to us. This whole talking about money is unseemly thing usually seems to be used by those who have the least cause to worry about money.
 
Doctor Bagel said:
Being an anonymous survey, it's not really an open question. And it's useful information to give to your colleagues who are starting out in their career. Some of us don't have trust funds or spouses who are physicians, so knowing people's salaries is important to us. This whole talking about money is unseemly thing usually seems to be used by those who have the least cause to worry about money.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe the survey is anonymous b/c you can see who responded to what if you're signed in. I think the reports you find on-line are pretty accurate so you can get a good sense of what you can make by following those. Also, there is a good report on psychiatry practice on MDscape that breaks down the salaries. One way that I learned about salaries was to discuss it with the graduating residents. A lot of them will be pretty open with what they're starting at.

For child psych the graduating fellows were being offered anywhere from ~150K (academic) to ~230K (private group practice). The salary for the graduating general residents was about 180K, but that was an n of 2 since most went into a fellowship.

Here's the MDscape link: http://www.medscape.com/sites/public/physician-comp/2011
 
Doctor Bagel said:
Being an anonymous survey, it's not really an open question.
Click to expand...

You're right, it looks like it is anonymous. That's cool.

I agree it would be interesting to see what attendings here make. However, personally, I think the regional stats and averages are a better gauge on what you can expect to make. It's almost like the scenario of medical students who come to this forum and get freaked out by all the emphasis on "top 20" programs and how many interviews others are getting at these places. The folks that frequent SDN are a unique group and don't really represent the norm.
 
Chimed said:
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe the survey is anonymous b/c you can see who responded to what if you're signed in.
Click to expand...

I think you can only see how many people voted for each selection, not which user did the voting. So for all we know anybody could be responding to the survey (which makes a good case for using the links you suggested!).

Still, I would be interested in seeing how responses pan out to try to get some idea of salaries on this board however unreliable it may be.
 
Doctor Bagel said:
This whole talking about money is unseemly thing usually seems to be used by those who have the least cause to worry about money.
Click to expand...
Nonsense. Go to a random buddy's house over the holidays and ask one of his uncles or aunts how much money they make. Get prepared for the sound of a skipped record. This has nothing to do with folks being rich or poor. It's just considered rude to ask someone how much money they make, regardless of how much you or they make. I'll tell a trusted friend, but for anyone else, it's just none of their business.

I've heard little kids ask that question, but I'm not sure I've ever heard an adult ask me how much money I make. At most, they'll at least be diplomatic enough to say, "How much does a _____ make these days anyway?" Then you can refer them to a range. Hence all the salary surveys above.
 
my private patients will freely discuss sexual fantasies, felonies, and indiscretions of all sorts, but rarely does someone mention a salary.
 
cleareyedguy said:
my private patients will freely discuss sexual fantasies, felonies, and indiscretions of all sorts, but rarely does someone mention a salary.
Click to expand...

You're right that it's transgressive in casual conversation, but the implication that people shouldn't be concerned about money (which you make by not talking about it anonymously with your future colleagues) is a little elitist.
 
Obviously, this poll doesn't really mean anything...we have no way of knowing who is clicking what. I mean, I could go click 300k, but I don't actually make that...

Still, I think that helping future attendings (especially those about to graduate) know what a fair salary is out of residency is a necessary evil.

The salary surveys, like the one posted here, might be a better source:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16721&d=1304153086
 
Doctor Bagel said:
You're right that it's transgressive in casual conversation, but the implication that people shouldn't be concerned about money (which you make by not talking about it anonymously with your future colleagues) is a little elitist.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone is implying at all that people shouldn't be concerned about money. But not wanting to disclose your salary on an SDN poll isn't elitist, it's just private. Besides, the data listed in the various salary surveys available is a lot more telling than what 10 or 15 people answer on an SDN poll.
 
The asking about salaries being rude thing is very culturally dependent. I remember when I was studying Chinese language in college in the mid-1990s, I was taught that asking someone their salary was just part of polite smalltalk in the PRC. Though my teachers pointed out that under communism, people were mostly making the same amount anyway. I'd actually be curious to know if people aren't asking that question anymore in light of China's huge economic growth and greater wage disparities.

Anyway, that was totally off-topic. Sorry. 😳
 
Manicsleep said:
The salary question is a reasonable one. There is a very big range and the upper end is very broad. Also, there is the business aspect of medicine and the clinical aspect of medicine. The clinical will generate a very limited range of revenue per unit of time but the net take home can vary dramatically depending on the waste. Reinvestment of income into non medical arenas can also be very beneficial as it allows you to protect income from taxation and create long term assets/revenue generators (buildings that generate rent and lower your overhead).

But I will answer your question bluntly, this is in California. I and every other psychiatrist in our group except our latest hire (less than a month) make more than 350k. Our newest hire will probably get there in less than a year. Most of our psychiatrists and other physicians see patients for about 45-50 hours a week. There are psychiatrists that see patients for 60-70 hours a week and make upwards of 500k or more.

Subspecialties like forensics and child also do very well because they tend to have a decent cash component. Sleep and pain have a large procedure component so they also do well. Gero-psych can do well if you have contracts with nursing homes and you do it with NPs/PAs but it can get you in trouble so we stay away. In private practice, the real way to make more money is to work more hours. Your overhead generally is fairly static so the more you work, the greater percentage goes in your pocket.

The HMOs, county, hospital based groups around here pay anywhere from 170-190 for CMHCs to something like Kaiser which can pay in the low 300s for a partnered physician with bonuses and some overtime. Academics pay low to mid 100s for assistant professor, high 100s for associate and low 200s for full professor. 'Senior clinical instructors' are lucky to get 6 figures. There are a couple of big psychiatry groups that do very well, probably better than us per unit time because they have better negotiating power. There are also a lot of solo practitioners who are doing ok, probably making in the mid 100s to a variety of upper range (the pure cash ones do very well but its rare) but they are their own boss and relatively happy.
Click to expand...

Awesome reply. Thanks for taking the time to type it out. I had no idea academic salaries differed that much from the norm. Jeez.
 
notdeadyet said:
I don't think anyone is implying at all that people shouldn't be concerned about money. But not wanting to disclose your salary on an SDN poll isn't elitist, it's just private. Besides, the data listed in the various salary surveys available is a lot more telling than what 10 or 15 people answer on an SDN poll.
Click to expand...

You're right that this data is limited, but it's nice to get some data points aside from the average psychiatrist salary being $170k or whatever that the other surveys all reveal. I don't know, though, I still find it quite unhelpful to refuse to discuss salaries in a totally anonymous way (this survey really is anonymous), and I still think there's some sort of implication that talking about money is unseemly, which is an implication frequently made by people who don't have to worry about money. Of course, I'm also probably reading way too much into this. The whole lack of information we get about money in our training is frustrating, especially with the price of medical school going up exponentially.
 
Chimed said:
That's a very interesting brake down of salaries. Do you know where the data comes from? Interesting that, even though the n =11, geriatric psychiatrist had the highest mean at $234. Not sure that stands up to the common thinking regarding what the different subspecialties make.
Click to expand...

It's the 2010 MGMA salary survey. I just googled it. I used to have a modern healthcare article that detailed the average salaries from ALL of the various salary surveys and you could really get a feel for the range and average, but I can't seem to find the link...sorry.

Manicsleep, that was epic. Thank you for stepping up.
 
Doctor Bagel said:
Awesome reply. Thanks for taking the time to type it out. I had no idea academic salaries differed that much from the norm. Jeez.
Click to expand...

I think the salary for psychiatrists in california is higher than average. Academic salaries however may actually be lower or on par compared to average. This is probably due to the patient population being mostly medical/indigent for academic centers and the 'premium' UCs, Stanfords etc expect people to pay for the privilege of working for them. There are exceptions to these rules and chairs, dept heads, directors get paid more but that comes with its own extra set of headaches.
 
Factor in that in California, everything is more expensive. A salary of 200K in some places really is the same as 150K in other places given the taxes you'd have to pay and property value.

I'm going to admit that right now I'm making a lot for a psychiatrist. While I work more than 40 hours a week, I'd still be way ahead if I added all I made and averaged it out as if it were 40/hr. The fact that I'm in the midwest, well that just makes this money go a long ways more.
 
Manicsleep said:
The salary question is a reasonable one. There is a very big range and the upper end is very broad. Also, there is the business aspect of medicine and the clinical aspect of medicine. The clinical will generate a very limited range of revenue per unit of time but the net take home can vary dramatically depending on the waste. Reinvestment of income into non medical arenas can also be very beneficial as it allows you to protect income from taxation and create long term assets/revenue generators (buildings that generate rent and lower your overhead).

But I will answer your question bluntly, this is in California. I and every other psychiatrist in our group except our latest hire (less than a month) make more than 350k. Our newest hire will probably get there in less than a year. Most of our psychiatrists and other physicians see patients for about 45-50 hours a week. There are psychiatrists that see patients for 60-70 hours a week and make upwards of 500k or more.

Subspecialties like forensics and child also do very well because they tend to have a decent cash component. Sleep and pain have a large procedure component so they also do well. Gero-psych can do well if you have contracts with nursing homes and you do it with NPs/PAs but it can get you in trouble so we stay away. In private practice, the real way to make more money is to work more hours. Your overhead generally is fairly static so the more you work, the greater percentage goes in your pocket.

The HMOs, county, hospital based groups around here pay anywhere from 170-190 for CMHCs to something like Kaiser which can pay in the low 300s for a partnered physician with bonuses and some overtime. Academics pay low to mid 100s for assistant professor, high 100s for associate and low 200s for full professor. 'Senior clinical instructors' are lucky to get 6 figures. There are a couple of big psychiatry groups that do very well, probably better than us per unit time because they have better negotiating power. There are also a lot of solo practitioners who are doing ok, probably making in the mid 100s to a variety of upper range (the pure cash ones do very well but its rare) but they are their own boss and relatively happy.
Click to expand...

I just wanted to say thanks as well for the detailed reply. As someone who is graduating with a beach house in school loans, I'm a little relieved. 😍
 
Manicsleep said:
I think the salary for psychiatrists in california is higher than average. Academic salaries however may actually be lower or on par compared to average. This is probably due to the patient population being mostly medical/indigent for academic centers and the 'premium' UCs, Stanfords etc expect people to pay for the privilege of working for them. There are exceptions to these rules and chairs, dept heads, directors get paid more but that comes with its own extra set of headaches.
Click to expand...

I trained in the Bay Area, and salaries for HMO jobs there seemed lower than what they're paying up here in the NW. I did hear that since the CA prisons upped their starting salaries to the $225ish range, that Kaiser et al down there would have to follow suite, but I don't know if that's happened.

Manicsleep, are all your colleagues sleep docs as well? I have a colleague here who did a sleep fellowship and said that sleep jobs are hard to find, and since the technology is there to do effective sleep studies at home, she's feeling like it's a dying field. She's worked in academics part time.

Maybe one day I'll get brave/motivated enough to do PP. Right now though, the extra hrs + huge paperwork hassle seem to offset the salary increase. Esp since I have zero interest in working more than 40 hrs/week.
 
Manicsleep said:
The salary question is a reasonable one. There is a very big range and the upper end is very broad. Also, there is the business aspect of medicine and the clinical aspect of medicine. The clinical will generate a very limited range of revenue per unit of time but the net take home can vary dramatically depending on the waste. Reinvestment of income into non medical arenas can also be very beneficial as it allows you to protect income from taxation and create long term assets/revenue generators (buildings that generate rent and lower your overhead).

But I will answer your question bluntly, this is in California. I and every other psychiatrist in our group except our latest hire (less than a month) make more than 350k. Our newest hire will probably get there in less than a year. Most of our psychiatrists and other physicians see patients for about 45-50 hours a week. There are psychiatrists that see patients for 60-70 hours a week and make upwards of 500k or more.

Subspecialties like forensics and child also do very well because they tend to have a decent cash component. Sleep and pain have a large procedure component so they also do well. Gero-psych can do well if you have contracts with nursing homes and you do it with NPs/PAs but it can get you in trouble so we stay away. In private practice, the real way to make more money is to work more hours. Your overhead generally is fairly static so the more you work, the greater percentage goes in your pocket.

The HMOs, county, hospital based groups around here pay anywhere from 170-190 for CMHCs to something like Kaiser which can pay in the low 300s for a partnered physician with bonuses and some overtime. Academics pay low to mid 100s for assistant professor, high 100s for associate and low 200s for full professor. 'Senior clinical instructors' are lucky to get 6 figures. There are a couple of big psychiatry groups that do very well, probably better than us per unit time because they have better negotiating power. There are also a lot of solo practitioners who are doing ok, probably making in the mid 100s to a variety of upper range (the pure cash ones do very well but its rare) but they are their own boss and relatively happy.
Click to expand...

Just wanted to say thank you for your reply. I think this post is going to help many graduating residents when negociating a starting salary. It's important to understand that salary is very region dependant, so if you want a good understanding of salary we need to do a poll that is region specific. I liked how the above post is indicating that it is in California, but even then California is a huge state. Something to think about.

Let me just add that on the other forums here on SDN not related to psych, salary is openly talked about.
 
carlosc1dbz said:
Let me just add that on the other forums here on SDN not related to psych, salary is openly talked about.
Click to expand...

I would rather we NOT talk about it until after this years' match.

In fact, if you read what manic sleep really said:

"I only make a paltry 80k per year and I work 80 hours per week to do that. Plus, I have to do sooo much paperwork, and the midlevels are all going to take our jobs. Avoid psych at all costs."
Click to expand...

If it doesn't say that now, it's because some hacker changed it...but that's the way things are in psych. NO ONE is making over 100k per year. No one. Anywhere. In the world. And psychiatrists get attacked by their patients (and hospital security, apparently 🙄). This job sucks, nothing to see here. Move along. These aren't the droids you're looking for.
 
digitlnoize said:
NO ONE is making over 100k per year. No one. Anywhere. In the world. And psychiatrists get attacked by their patients (and hospital security, apparently 🙄). This job sucks, nothing to see here. Move along. These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Click to expand...

The sad thing is you're channeling my mom here. She was seriously convinced that I would make less money in psychiatry than I would in something like family medicine or peds.
 
digitlnoize said:
I would rather we NOT talk about it until after this years' match.

In fact, if you read what manic sleep really said:



If it doesn't say that now, it's because some hacker changed it...but that's the way things are in psych. NO ONE is making over 100k per year. No one. Anywhere. In the world. And psychiatrists get attacked by their patients (and hospital security, apparently 🙄). This job sucks, nothing to see here. Move along. These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Click to expand...

This isn't the job I wanted. I quit!
 
I remember academic and CMHC jobs paying around 90k as I finished training (2001) which was barely more than I was earning as a PGY5 fellow with moonlighting pay.

With my med school loans, I couldn't have afforded those jobs even if I'd wanted to take them.

Good pay is out there. You just have to search, be picky, patient and work hard (and be good at your job).
 
milesed said:
I remember academic and CMHC jobs paying around 90k as I finished training (2001) which was barely more than I was earning as a PGY5 fellow with moonlighting pay.

With my med school loans, I couldn't have afforded those jobs even if I'd wanted to take them.

Good pay is out there. You just have to search, be picky, patient and work hard (and be good at your job).
Click to expand...

It's a wonder that anyone would even stay in academics with that kinda of a starting salary. At least where I'm at, the starting base salary for an academic child psychiatrist is ~150K. But I think they get a lot of other perks including an awesome retirement plan and full health insurance. That starts to add up. Plus, the hours are very good and you don't have to deal with insurance issues.
 
Technotronic said:
I work in a private practice setting and moonlight every other weekend as I build up my practice. The moonlighting gig should bring in about 100k and the private practice another 200k at my current rate and more if I keep growing. I am quickly building my patient load and am at about 30 hours worth (3 full days worth) right now. The growth is slowing a little but I should be above 40 by December. My payor mix early on was a lot of medicare so it was mostly med management. My new patients are PPO and some self pay so I'm gonna drop the moonlighting after I pass 4 days a week. I do general adult psychiatry with a fair amount of psychotherapy and groups. 300k is very attainable as long as you supplement with moonlighting and are willing to work the hours and keep your skills up to par.
Click to expand...


Thanks for sharing this.

Wow, 200K for 30 hours per sounds very nice. Would you mind letting us know what you actually take home after overhead and business expenses? Also, how many patients do you see in a day?

Thanks.
 
At least around here, academic psychiatrists have a salary that might be 130-200K, depending on rank and institution, but they can then make significantly more through private practice within the physician's organization. It might not rival the salaries made in FT private practices that focus on making maximal profits, but they can certainly rival and/or beat the typical psychiatrist when various benefits are added in. The hours can be long, but the job satisfaction can be very high.
 
cleareyedguy said:
At least around here, academic psychiatrists have a salary that might be 130-200K, depending on rank and institution, but they can then make significantly more through private practice within the physician's organization. It might not rival the salaries made in FT private practices that focus on making maximal profits, but they can certainly rival and/or beat the typical psychiatrist when various benefits are added in. The hours can be long, but the job satisfaction can be very high.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think that's the point that a lot of folks don't take into account--full health insurance and retire benefits can add up.
 
cleareyedguy said:
At least around here, academic psychiatrists have a salary that might be 130-200K, depending on rank and institution, but they can then make significantly more through private practice within the physician's organization. It might not rival the salaries made in FT private practices that focus on making maximal profits, but they can certainly rival and/or beat the typical psychiatrist when various benefits are added in. The hours can be long, but the job satisfaction can be very high.
Click to expand...

I'm kind of curious how this works. Are there any obligations required to remain on the faculty? Do you have to publish, or put in X number of hours in the inpatient/CPEP/clinic?
 
fiatslug said:
I trained in the Bay Area, and salaries for HMO jobs there seemed lower than what they're paying up here in the NW. I did hear that since the CA prisons upped their starting salaries to the $225ish range, that Kaiser et al down there would have to follow suite, but I don't know if that's happened.

Manicsleep, are all your colleagues sleep docs as well? I have a colleague here who did a sleep fellowship and said that sleep jobs are hard to find, and since the technology is there to do effective sleep studies at home, she's feeling like it's a dying field. She's worked in academics part time.

Maybe one day I'll get brave/motivated enough to do PP. Right now though, the extra hrs + huge paperwork hassle seem to offset the salary increase. Esp since I have zero interest in working more than 40 hrs/week.
Click to expand...

SoCal Kaiser hires in the low 180's plus benefits, partner track, plus 25k signing bonus (or so per year), advancing to 225-ish once partner in 3 years.

In LA county right now the salary (publicly available) is 11282.00 - 15624.00/mo, plus 5.5% for boards. Plus health benefits, retirement, pension, sick time, paid vacation. Most psychiatrists get hired in at the max starting salary. Then there's my private practice...
 
Last edited:
Salpingo said:
I'm kind of curious how this works. Are there any obligations required to remain on the faculty? Do you have to publish, or put in X number of hours in the inpatient/CPEP/clinic?
Click to expand...

Depends on if someone is full faculty or "volunteer" faculty. Full faculty at certain universities often pay a "tax" or % or their income to the university. Volunteer faculty do essentially volunteer hours teaching or supervising, don't get taxed (to my understanding), but don't get salary or benefits from the university system.
 
Alright, so I am finally going to click on view poll results. Lets see how it goes.
 
nitemagi said:
SoCal Kaiser hires in the low 180's plus benefits, partner track, plus 25k signing bonus (or so per year), advancing to 225-ish once partner in 3 years.

In LA county right now the salary (publicly available) is 11282.00 - 15624.00/mo, plus 5.5% for boards. Plus health benefits, retirement, pension, sick time, paid vacation. Most psychiatrists get hired in at the max starting salary. Then there's my private practice...
Click to expand...

I work in a County MH System in SoCal. I can get into LA in 1 hr (off peak) or San Diego in 1.5 hrs. Vegas is 4-5 hrs. Cost of living is a little less than LA. Salary for my county is a little over $200k/yr. Benefits are worth 41%. So the total full-time package is worth around $300k. A little more if you are willing to work inpatient or Psych Emergency. It's more than the avg. for public MH in SoCal because people would rather live right near the beach, and we are competing with several prisons and state hospitals (who all raised their salaries a few yrs ago b/c the feds said they are req'd to have more psychiatrists.)

Of course my house is worth ~41% of what I paid in several yrs ago. :annoyed:
 
Before fellowship, while I was working locum tenens in the CDCR (California corrections, my first year out of residency, I was making well close to 350k. Of course, I had to provide my own malpractice, health insurance, etc.

The only reason I mention what I made is to provide an option for graduating residents who wish to make good money and pay off loans quickly. The CDCR is a great place to earn a lot quickly, but it's not necessarily the nicest place to work.

A few other psychiatrists with whom I worked were working 40 hours at the prison, and had private practices as well. They easily made between 450-500k a year. I'm told that the hourly rate has actually gone up and at certain correctional facilities they are paying upwards of $200 an hour.

If anyone carries major school loans, the CDCR is a great way to pay off your debts quickly - as early as 2 years.
 
Ah geez, I'm thinking of leaving my current job situation that is making about twice as much as most doctors make for about 55 hrs a week, to a university hospital where I'm still negotiating the salary but they're telling me I'm still going to about the same because they're going to assign me to the more profitable clinical opportunities they offer, I'll only be working 40 hours a week and my wife will get free tuition.....we spend a lot of meetings arranging this and I'm about to sign, ...then out of nowhere a buddy of mine is trying to get me to join a practice where there's only one doc and he's claiming to make about $1 million a year.
 
rklauderdale said:
just wondering jetta what did you decide to do a fellowship in??
Click to expand...

Did a fellowship in pain. Having seen many sides of medicine now, I can say this with certainty. If you are an entrepreneurial type and a hard worker, then hands down Psychiatry is the way to make great money. I would say 30 hours a week of private practice, and 30 hours a week of "other" types of businesses. Very few other specialties can allow you this type of time opportunity.

The salary of a psychiatrist is never going to compare with that of other highly paid subspecialists. However, I've seen many psychiatrists far surpass other specialists in yearly income with other business ventures.
 
jettavr6 said:
However, I've seen many psychiatrists far surpass other specialists in yearly income with other business ventures.
Click to expand...

What type of business ventures as a psychiatrist?

Also are sleep medicine or pain medicine common areas for a psychiatrist or are they more common for neurologist or anesthesiologist?

What type of post psychiatry training do sleep or pain medicine require - how long does it take and how hard it is to get into?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

A
  • Locked
Psychologist attending patient appointment
Replies
16
Views
2K
Ceke2002
Ceke2002
N
Salary surveys
Replies
3
Views
952
TexasPhysician
TexasPhysician
MrFlyGuy
Attending Mayo Clinic Salaries
Replies
9
Views
4K
comp1
C
R
First attending job interview
Replies
22
Views
4K
psychiatree
P
K
Psychiatry salary
Replies
16
Views
8K
Kalogada
K
Top