Another Adcom, ask me (almost) anything

[Doctorworld]

How much emphasis does a compelling background story have on an applicants chance to get into a school? It seems from your previous responses that it depends on the school. I have been living and volunteering at a special needs orphanage in China for the past five years, that being said I graduated as a business major (from an online school) and did not work very much with the doctor on staff. I am now studying to complete my prerequisites and apply to medical school. Knowing some of my situation (my GPA is 3.9+) what sort of MCAT score do I need to be considered competitive at a top school? Thanks for your help.

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[Goro]

We don't pre-screen and so have to interview these people. They're also uncommon, and they end up getting rejected as well.

I sometimes get apps from people with high stats and scant clinical experience, but they are rare. People with zero get screened out.

 

[hushcom]

I mean the IRTA Program at the NIH that is for psot-bac students. They either do one or two years there and are required/recommend to apply to graduate school during their stay at the NIH.

Have you had applicants who have done research at Howard Hughes Medical Institute/Jenelia Pharms?

Offhand I would say that two years in IRTA is in the same ballpark as a solid Masters degree, although the experience in any lab and any degree program can vary wildly from one to the next. Evaluating merit comes down to seeing who you worked for, what you were doing, and how productive your time was.

I have seen at least one HHMI, although I cannot remember any details. No Jenelia Pharms yet.

 

[hushcom]

How much emphasis does a compelling background story have on an applicants chance to get into a school? It seems from your previous responses that it depends on the school. I have been living and volunteering at a special needs orphanage in China for the past five years, that being said I graduated as a business major (from an online school) and did not work very much with the doctor on staff. I am now studying to complete my prerequisites and apply to medical school. Knowing some of my situation (my GPA is 3.9+) what sort of MCAT score do I need to be considered competitive at a top school? Thanks for your help.

Since everyone at so-called top schools has high numbers, the compelling background story is all that sets successful candidates apart from unsuccessful ones. You can look at the MSAR to get an idea of what you need to be competitive at any given institution.

I have said this before in this thread, but getting enamored with top schools is an excellent recipe for stress and disappointment. Medical education is incredibly standardized, and you should focus on getting into a place that fits your goals, personality, and (most importantly) debt tolerance.

 

[pbrocks15]

Offhand I would say that two years in IRTA is in the same ballpark as a solid Masters degree, although the experience in any lab and any degree program can vary wildly from one to the next. Evaluating merit comes down to seeing who you worked for, what you were doing, and how productive your time was.

I have seen at least one HHMI, although I cannot remember any details. No Jenelia Pharms yet.

When you say it comes down to evaluating who you worked for do you mean that you adcoms look into the PI of the labs? Or would you get a better idea from the letter?

I'll be applying before i've spent a year or two there; would this mean that it won't positively affect my application as much since I won't be able to write about my experience there yet because I won't have started before writing the application?

 

[Halgene]

.

 

[hushcom]

When you say it comes down to evaluating who you worked for do you mean that you adcoms look into the PI of the labs? Or would you get a better idea from the letter?

I was talking more about the letter, although research is a fairly small world at times. Someone on the committee occasionally knows an applicant's PI, either directly or indirectly.

I'll be applying before i've spent a year or two there; would this mean that it won't positively affect my application as much since I won't be able to write about my experience there yet because I won't have started before writing the application?

Such is the drawback to starting something fairly new close to application season. It still looks good on your app, and by the time you interview you will likely have done enough to discuss the project you are working on.

 

[hushcom]

So my father and I keep bees, and people always love when I give them honey. If I talk about it in an interview, would it be bad to bring some to give them? Or would that be seen as brown nosing?

It would just be weird, which is not the impression you want to leave them with.

 

[pbrocks15]

I was talking more about the letter, although research is a fairly small world at times. Someone on the committee occasionally knows an applicant's PI, either directly or indirectly.



Such is the drawback to starting something fairly new close to application season. It still looks good on your app, and by the time you interview you will likely have done enough to discuss the project you are working on.

When I apply I most likely won't have a letter from the PI i'm going to be doing research with during the gap year. Will that hurt me?

Is there a way I can send maybe an update letter half way through the year? Would you recommend sending another letter form the PI at all?

 

[hushcom]

When I apply I most likely won't have a letter from the PI i'm going to be doing research with during the gap year. Will that hurt me?

Is there a way I can send maybe an update letter half way through the year? Would you recommend sending another letter form the PI at all?

Will it hurt you? No, we are all limited by the confines of time and space. Doing research at the NIH can only help you, even if it does not produce a paper or awesome LOR by the time you file with AMCAS.

A PI letter is unlikely to help, although I would send an update letter if you have anything of note to convey (like a publication or poster or something).

 

[Halgene]

.

 

[Fargofargo]

@hushcom

People always say you want to make a strong, memorable impression on the ADCOMs from your application. My question is do some applicants actually stand out so much that even when you go home, you remember details from their applications? Also, if they were positive impressions, then you would favor those applicants for IIs or acceptances?

 

[formerphoenix]

I am curious about how you look at past GRE scores. One of the secondaries I am filling out asks to provide previous standardized tests other than the MCAT (SAT and GRE), however both of these scores of mine were very average and it is not something I would like to advertise. I am currently getting my MS so they will know I took the GRE, is it a red flag if I don't put these scores in and leave it blank? I would love your thoughts, thank you!

 

[hushcom]

@hushcom

People always say you want to make a strong, memorable impression on the ADCOMs from your application. My question is do some applicants actually stand out so much that even when you go home, you remember details from their applications? Also, if they were positive impressions, then you would favor those applicants for IIs or acceptances?

I certainly remember some applicants more than others, but being memorable can cut both ways. A positive impression absolutely helps in committee, but some interviewers love almost everyone and other like very few. Over time we learn how much credence to give to each others' opinions.

 

[hushcom]

I am curious about how you look at past GRE scores. One of the secondaries I am filling out asks to provide previous standardized tests other than the MCAT (SAT and GRE), however both of these scores of mine were very average and it is not something I would like to advertise. I am currently getting my MS so they will know I took the GRE, is it a red flag if I don't put these scores in and leave it blank? I would love your thoughts, thank you!

I ignore them unless they are terrible. The GRE is a different test for a different career path. Hard to make much of it, although I'm sure some people want to see high numbers across the board.

 

[hushcom]

Thanks. Wasn't sure how normal it would be. Definitely won't.

Tell you what, if an interviewer also keeps bees then trade some honey later on. If an applicant tried to give me literal honey my first response would be "you know that's the only known dietary source of Clostridium botulinum, right?"

 

[Halgene]

.

 

[pythagoraslock]

Hushcom, as a reapplicant, I'm wondering if it's worthwhile applying to a school I like but didn't finish the secondary for last year. Simply ran out of money for secondaries. Do adcoms tend to see this as a dealbreaker?

 

[formerphoenix]

I have not received my MCAT scores yet (still waiting another 20 days or so) but I have already received secondary applications. I want to finish them and return them as soon as possible (I know it can be a gauge of interest), but without my MCAT scores I'm not sure how competitive I will be and don't want to waste the money if my MCAT score ends up being too low for specific schools. Basically what I'm trying to ask is that if it took someone 4-5 weeks to return a secondary would that be a red flag to you? Even if they returned the secondaries right around when the MCAT scores were released?

 

[Lakedays]

I can tell it's the "worry about timing" part of the application season. Your only options are to politely wait until the committee letter arrives or withdraw. Waiting on others can be a real drag.

Definitely was politely waiting with no intention to withdraw. The question, however, was whether something out of the applicant's control, as in this case of a committee letter, reflect badly on the applicant if everything they had direct control of was early or "on time" such as primary, secondaries, MCAT. As a note: all applications are now complete; ltr and accompanying materials marked as received on majority of portals August 1.

Frankly, the entire process is "worry about timing" just as much as it's "worry about LORs" and "Worry about Stats." It's pretty much an entire season of "worry and doubt" where, in my case, I'm hoping the caliber/reputation of UG DOES help for both committee letter and GPA (see prestige of UG thread). Four years of feeling confident in UG gpa (compared to peers) now crushed when compared to the plethora of 3.9-4.0 on SDN (which is close to impossible to do at my UG as a hard science major).

 

[ImmunoLove]

Post #139:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/changing-name-for-urm-advantage.1055903/page-3#post-14926138

Dude. Not cool. scheming...Sheesh! Play fair! jeez

 

[Greasy Pete]

How do you feel about Writing about AA and sobriety in your Personal statement op?

 

[hushcom]

Hushcom, as a reapplicant, I'm wondering if it's worthwhile applying to a school I like but didn't finish the secondary for last year. Simply ran out of money for secondaries. Do adcoms tend to see this as a dealbreaker?

I do not receive that information. With thousands of secondaries coming in I doubt anyone is really looking that closely.

 

[hushcom]

I have not received my MCAT scores yet (still waiting another 20 days or so) but I have already received secondary applications. I want to finish them and return them as soon as possible (I know it can be a gauge of interest), but without my MCAT scores I'm not sure how competitive I will be and don't want to waste the money if my MCAT score ends up being too low for specific schools. Basically what I'm trying to ask is that if it took someone 4-5 weeks to return a secondary would that be a red flag to you? Even if they returned the secondaries right around when the MCAT scores were released?

Is this your first MCAT or a retake?

 

[hushcom]

The question, however, was whether something out of the applicant's control, as in this case of a committee letter, reflect badly on the applicant

No.

 

[hushcom]

How do you feel about Writing about AA and sobriety in your Personal statement op?

We accept sober people every year, the circumstances vary somewhat. The alcoholic who quit isn't quite the same as the alcoholic who quit after three DWIs. If it's part of the story you want to share then you should feel fine doing it.

 

[Greasy Pete]

in what sense are they not the same?

 

[formerphoenix]

Is this your first MCAT or a retake?

first

 

[hushcom]

in what sense are they not the same?

One has three convictions and the other does not.

 

[hushcom]

first

I assume these are automatic secondary schools that do no screen. Your application will not receive consideration without an MCAT score, so I'm not sure that returning the secondaries in advance of that score will speed things along for you. I would just write them and have the ready to deploy the second my score comes back.

 

[Greasy Pete]

ok. Is that all you mean by "the circumstances vary somewhat"?

 

[hushcom]

ok. Is that all you mean by "the circumstances vary somewhat"?

Circumstances always vary, but for individuals who apply with a history of substance abuse issues they become more acute. When applicants have legal histories it raises issues of passing background checks, getting licensed, getting a DEA number, and so on. Whether true or not, it's also easier to believe that the person with no legal history has better odds of staying sober than the one with multiple arrests.

 

[jagster92]

I apologize if this has already been covered in this thread, but with everything else being equal (e.g. same GPA, MCAT, ECs, volunteering, clinical experience etc.) how would you compare an incoming traditional 4-yr student with a student applying to med school after just completing a 6yr PharmD degree? And are the rotations from pharmacy viewed upon positively? I plan to focus as heavy as i can on clinically-oriented or research roles. Thanks!

 

[DaRealDrL]

I'm in the same situation except I retook the MCAT. All but 2 schools that I applied to requested my secondaries. About half of them are automatic secondaries or very lenient screening. I got a 26 on my MCAT last year (PS 7, VR 10, BS 9). Should I also wait until my scores release to submit secondaries to my reach/above my average schools?

I have a cGPA 3.65 and sGPA 3.5 and if I had to predict my retake score it would be 29-30.

Thanks @hushcom

 

[ImmunoLove]

Blind one-handed bra removal.

Scotch and a sense of humor! Nice!

 

[aegistitan]

So I was browsing the Student researching forums and I came across this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/journal-targets-increasing-your-research-output.1073599/

I was wondering, for medical school admissions would a school be more impressed by a first author publications in less prestigious journals (F1000, PLoS) or 1 second author publication in a more well known and prestigious journal?

The answers in the above thread are given from a non-premedical perspective, and I can understand the reasoning behind why when competing for residencies quality is more important than quantity. However, as an undergraduate isn't the point of research (in regards to medical school admissions) to clearly demonstrate that you know what it takes to be a successful scientist? Even if papers are not published in fancy journals (Journal of Food Protection, International Journal of Food Microbiology), wouldn't they still show that the undergraduate student that did the work knows how to take a project through analysis, writing, and the various steps of publication?

The reason I was curious is because I was debating eventually submitting a manuscript to F1000 for the turnaround time.

To that extent, how do medical schools feel about applicants publishing case reports? I realize more is better than none, but I was debating spending my time attempting to write one. I realize they are not given much weight in residency applications, but what about medical school?

 

[hushcom]

I apologize if this has already been covered in this thread, but with everything else being equal (e.g. same GPA, MCAT, ECs, volunteering, clinical experience etc.) how would you compare an incoming traditional 4-yr student with a student applying to med school after just completing a 6yr PharmD degree? And are the rotations from pharmacy viewed upon positively? I plan to focus as heavy as i can on clinically-oriented or research roles. Thanks!

I don't recall any 6 year PharmD applicants in my tenure, but if the individual had a good interview and could make a case for pursuing medicine over pharmacy it would probably be a net positive.

 

[hushcom]

I'm in the same situation except I retook the MCAT. All but 2 schools that I applied to requested my secondaries. About half of them are automatic secondaries or very lenient screening. I got a 26 on my MCAT last year (PS 7, VR 10, BS 9). Should I also wait until my scores release to submit secondaries to my reach/above my average schools?

I have a cGPA 3.65 and sGPA 3.5 and if I had to predict my retake score it would be 29-30.

Thanks @hushcom

There is no perfect way to play this. If you submit your secondaries I believe some schools will wait on the new MCAT and others won't. If I were in your shoes I would write the secondaries and submit them the moment I get the new score back, as I think having a stronger MCAT trumps the timing issue here. But that is just one man's opinion.

 

[ems2doc]

The first several I saw were impressive, in part because I never did anything like them. There was some novelty. After some time, consideration, and conversations with wiser committee members, I see most of them as dime-a-dozen application fluff, usually undertaken by privileged students at institutions with well-oiled premedical machines. But (there is always a but) I do think it is possible for someone to have a meaningful experience doing medical work in another country, so in the end you have to look at each one and weigh it on its merits. First impression is usually fluff, though.

What are some other things you see in applications that you often consider "fluff"?

 

[bluemachine]

thanks for doing this! how would you view a person's application in a scenario where they turned everything in on their end like early july, but end up not being complete until mid-august due to LORs not being in until then. do adcoms even notice this, or do they just notice that they sent out their secondaries to this applicant 6/27, and was not complete until like 8/6? is this unfavorable, or does it not affect the applicant at all?

 

[ImmunoLove]

The AAMC data does not lie. Lurking around here gives one a warped view of average for a number of reasons.

Gosh I hope you're right

 

[hushcom]

So I was browsing the Student researching forums and I came across this thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/journal-targets-increasing-your-research-output.1073599/

I was wondering, for medical school admissions would a school be more impressed by a first author publications in less prestigious journals (F1000, PLoS) or 1 second author publication in a more well known and prestigious journal?

The answers in the above thread are given from a non-premedical perspective, and I can understand the reasoning behind why when competing for residencies quality is more important than quantity. However, as an undergraduate isn't the point of research (in regards to medical school admissions) to clearly demonstrate that you know what it takes to be a successful scientist? Even if papers are not published in fancy journals (Journal of Food Protection, International Journal of Food Microbiology), wouldn't they still show that the undergraduate student that did the work knows how to take a project through analysis, writing, and the various steps of publication?

The reason I was curious is because I was debating eventually submitting a manuscript to F1000 for the turnaround time.

To that extent, how do medical schools feel about applicants publishing case reports? I realize more is better than none, but I was debating spending my time attempting to write one. I realize they are not given much weight in residency applications, but what about medical school?

I think we all fall into the trap of wanting to publish something quick and dirty, but remember that this stuff stays on your CV for the rest of your life. Granted, publishing is changing rapidly, but I would stay away from anything that doesn't even have an impact factor.

 

[DirkN]

Hey! I was wondering how ADcoms feel about the unofficial 2 week deadline for secondaries. Do you recognize when a student took longer to complete your school's secondary, and do you count this against them?

 

[hushcom]

What are some other things you see in applications that you often consider "fluff"?

Who's Who comes to mind. And pretty much any isolated, short-term community service engagements. I won't begrudge anyone who spends 4 hours/year working in a soup kitchen, but it's usually pretty transparent box checking.

I once had an applicant who was in some type of student ambassador program. As far as I could tell she flew to several locales around the world with other students and they just sort of hung out. Was not impressed.

Aside: There is a dirty secret in all this, one which is probably wasted on most college freshmen who are considering pre-med. If they actually went out and looked for community service opportunities that they found interesting, most of them would probably find things they could sink their teeth into. Then volunteering wouldn't be a chore or a box to check, it would be something positive they want to engage in even if they don't have to. Those sorts of experiences help people mature and stand out in this process.

 

[hushcom]

Hey! I was wondering how ADcoms feel about the unofficial 2 week deadline for secondaries. Do you recognize when a student took longer to complete your school's secondary, and do you count this against them?

I think this is a premed urban legend. If your chances get hurt because of a lag in completing your secondary it's because that's the nature of rolling admissions, not because someone is in the admissions office with a stopwatch.

Really, I care about the strength of your application. Speculating the timing of it is just that: speculation.

 

[Leuk]

Hi hushcom, thank you for being active in this thread for so long and answering so many questions!

What do you recommend for an applicant to do when their GPA is their only major flaw but they can not afford an SMP or post-bac?

My cGPA is 3.18 and sGPA is hovering around 3.00, but I managed to have a positive trend raising my GPA from 2.7 (cumulative) and 2.3 (science) my freshman year. I did ok on the MCAT with a 31 (11 BS, 11 VR, and 9 PS), though not particularly great. I will also likely be an author on a publication by early fall and possibly an author on 2 more publications by next summer. The only thing my advisors have advised me to do to better my application is raise my GPA, but I have not been able to find any programs that I can afford.

 

[johnnytest]

Hello, Thank You for doing this.

How detrimental is it that I am applying as an undocumented student who has lived almost their whole life in USA and graduated with Bachelor's from U.S. accredited university but has no US citizenship or green card? But, I do have Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA). I know you mentioned your institution does not accept international applications hence, my school list consists of schools which do accept international students (which I most likely will be deemed, correct?) or residency is not a factor in their admissions process. Even at these institutions, will I be at a disadvantage regardless of the strength of my application? I was hoping you could give an insider's thought on this. Thank You.

 

[jj2015]

Hello, thank you for doing this. Would it be a bad thing if on the AMCAS primary application I indicated that I would like to apply to the MSTP program but later change my mind while completing the secondary and only apply for the MD program? Should also change my AMCAS designation?

 

[jagster92]

I don't recall any 6 year PharmD applicants in my tenure, but if the individual had a good interview and could make a case for pursuing medicine over pharmacy it would probably be a net positive.

Thanks for the help! And I'm glad to hear.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

Who's Who comes to mind. And pretty much any isolated, short-term community service engagements. I won't begrudge anyone who spends 4 hours/year working in a soup kitchen, but it's usually pretty transparent box checking.

I once had an applicant who was in some type of student ambassador program. As far as I could tell she flew to several locales around the world with other students and they just sort of hung out. Was not impressed.

Aside: There is a dirty secret in all this, one which is probably wasted on most college freshmen who are considering pre-med. If they actually went out and looked for community service opportunities that they found interesting, most of them would probably find things they could sink their teeth into. Then volunteering wouldn't be a chore or a box to check, it would be something positive they want to engage in even if they don't have to. Those sorts of experiences help people mature and stand out in this process.

I so totally agree with your last point. I was one of those people during college. Chose to do community service with APO instead of doing research because I truly love the former and have zero passion for the latter.

How much would it hurt a candidate if they attended a top 20 undergrad that was well-known for being a research powerhouse but chose not to do any research? I've grown a lot during my 4 years as an undergrad, had my fair share of ups and downs, and cherish most of those experiences. They just didn't include research.