Another Adcom, ask me (almost) anything

[hushcom]

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@hushcom, how effective is an upward trend for students who had 'rough starts' academically? And is, let's say a 3.7-4.0 GPA in the last 3+ yrs of schooling enough to make up for a poor start that may have taken place 5-7 years ago?

If you survive the screen an upward trend is quite effective. We know that a lot of people have to adjust to college, and it's very common for people with decent freshman GPAs to struggle a bit during sophomore year. The key is that at some point you need to demonstrate that you can handle the academic rigor of med school. I have seen people get Bs and Cs in their prereqs during the first two years of college and load the last two years with fluff. That sort of upward trend is not very convincing.

 

[hushcom]

What is your opinion on EMS work?
Thanks!

It's very common to have gone through the training and put in a few shifts, but when I have an applicant who has done it for awhile I consider it a real positive.

 

[hushcom]

Have you ever given negative feedback about an applicant because their opinions (political, religious, etc.) differed from your own?

No, never.

 

[hushcom]

Most bizarre thing you can remember in someone's personal statement?

I cannot divulge. For all I know the person who wrote it is cruising this thread.

 

[Gauss44]

I am a practicing physician who serves on the admissions committee of an allopathic medical school in the United States. I am also not new to SDN, having seen the cast of characters evolve here over a number of years. Some recent threads in the pre-allo forum have compelled me to start this one. While I am not a longstanding and venerated member of the committee, perhaps someone will find my two cents useful and/or interesting.

So please, have at it.

How would accomplished adults applying to medical school be evaluated differently than recent college grads? Or would they be?

(What I mean by "accomplished adult" is someone who's been in a successful non-medical career with many impressive accomplishments, but has been out of college for a while. An example would be a 35 year old attorney who, among other things, played a role in successfully changing a few laws, founded a company, and an internationally recognized event that's been ongoing for over 10 years. Let's say, in summary, it's clear that the attorney has a strong commitment to medicine and his heart's been there all along, not in law.)

 

[hushcom]

When looking at an applicant, how would you rate these three in order of importance: cumulative gpa, science gpa, MCAT?

I don't formally rank them, as they are all necessary but not sufficient and none of them stand without some further scrutiny. If you have a low-ish GPA in a hard major at a tough school with some extenuating circumstances but kill the MCAT then that looks really good. If your sGPA is low but your cGPA is high that gives me pause. If your MCAT score is 5VR 14PS 15BS that give me serious pause. I say "it depends" a lot because it really does depend.

 

[hushcom]

How would accomplished adults applying to medical school be evaluated differently than recent college grads? Or would they be?

(What I mean by "accomplished adult" is someone who's been in a successful career with many impressive accomplishments, but has been out of college for a while. An example would be a 35 year old attorney who played a role in successfully changing a few laws, founding a company and internationally recognized event. Let's say, in summary, it's clear that the attorney has a strong commitment to medicine and his heart's been there all along, not in law.)

They are evaluated differently, because each is coming from a completely different context. Applicants who have been out of college for a couple of years usually have stronger apps because they have had more time to accrue experiences. There is nothing surprising about that, and I think we informally handicap our college student applicants a little because of it. A genuine career-changer, on the other hand, faces a different set of questions that center around the decision to make such a dramatic shift. It will benefit your chances if you have been successful as an attorney, and can sell the story as a dream deferred rather than a desperate attempt to exit a failing career.

 

[clocks123]

It's very common to have gone through the training and put in a few shifts, but when I have an applicant who has done it for awhile I consider it a real positive.

Would having an EMS job during junior year and senior year be considered a good amount of time?

 

[Youknowgo]

You mentioned an unbalanced score of 5vr 14ps and 15bs gives you a serious pause. Would a 9vr 12 ps 15bs give you the same pause and why????? (I feel like I know the answer but want to hear in words)

 

[Straw Hat]

Thanks for taking the time out to answer these questions.

Have you come across/interviewed applicants who were nurses?

How do you feel about these applicants and would switching from nursing to medicine after 2-3 years give you any pause?

In general, how have they performed in school and beyond?

Thanks!

 

[TheBatman]

So I'm almost done with my second year I have absolutely zero EC's. I've been working almost 45 hours a week so I haven't gotten much time to do so. Will this make me look uncommitted? Also I got off to a very good start my first year but stumbled a bit last two semesters, it's not about how you start it's how you finish right?

 

[capit]

Thanks so much for this opportunity!

What are some common interviewee mistakes or shortcomings that you come across regularly?

 

[VFL2013]

x

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Again thanks hushcom!

Suggestion, obviously you guys do not have to take it, but i think it would be cool if all you adcoms did these threads at regular spaced intervals, obviously LizzyM owns the month of december 😛 but now in feb is a good time, another ideal time would probably be april right before amcas opens. But like i said, just a suggestion.

 

[deleted526486]

Thanks for doing this!

What advise would you give people who find themselves on waitlists?

 

[clavicle]

@hushcom How do you view scribing experience?

Also, what would you think of an applicant with this scenario?
The applicant started at community college due to financial reasons, (and worked three jobs during that time), then transferred to a good public university. At said university, the applicant didn't do well junior year (3.3), due to family issues and other reasons, but recovered senior year to a 3.8 (with a cumulative college and science gpa's of 3.6). Even though the gpa was brought back up senior year, is that junior year drop a significant disadvantage for the applicant?

 

[sharkbyte]

Thanks for the insight!

I obviously don't know how many times you've come across this scenario but how do you view/deal with with an applicant who has suffered through the loss of a parent during college? I am asking this because I struggled with my pre-med courses freshman year and after my father passed away suddenly in sophomore year I have rebounded to do well, even in some tough science courses. What are your opinions of an applicant and/or interviewee who presents this scenario?

 

[gettheleadout]

Hey OP,

First I want to thank you for your time and generosity as others already have. Second, I wanted to make you aware of our doctor and faculty verification processes, which are optional but encouraged:

https://help.studentdoctor.net/entries/465337-doctor-verification

https://help.studentdoctor.net/entries/465336-faculty-and-administration-verification

Completing either or both of these will grant you special user badges and affirm your professional standing, plus give you some perks in using SDN. 😉

 

[hushcom]

How do you and your colleagues feel about an applicant that has enrolled or completed an SMP at a D.O. school? Would it ever possibly hurt the applicant applying to M.D. schools, even if the applicant has done well in the SMP?

Have not seen one of those yet. SMPs vary widely in terms of rigor and reputation, so how helpful it is may be difficult to predict. Sorry if this isn't very helpful.

 

[hushcom]

How do you decide on applicants post-interview?

We talk it out. The experienced members can advocate an appropriate outcome with relative ease. Occasionally things get contentious, but those times are the exception.

 

[hushcom]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. How does the committee decide which applicants to accept? It seems like most people do reasonably well at the interview.

I am going through the thread to try and catch up, so I apologize if this is piecemeal. It is difficult for anyone who has never served on an adcom to appreciate the sheer volume of qualified, appealing candidates that come through. People with strong academic records, compelling life stories, solid ECs, etc., they are in seemingly endless supply. But over time you begin to see the subtle differences that distinguish candidates a bit more clearly. Some of us prioritize different things, but when we put our heads together and parse and application we can usually render a decision that makes (almost) everyone comfortable. Experience certainly pays. I wish I had more of it.

 

[hushcom]

Given that med schools typically offer acceptances to about 30-50% of interviewees, and given that a majority of interviewees do reasonably well on interviews (is this a false assumption?), how does the admissions committee decide whom to ultimately accept, if interview performance is insufficiently determinant?

I may sound like a broken record, but we just look at everything. No single part of the application will save you, but blowing any individual piece can sink you.

To what extent does an applicant's familial connections strengthen his or her application?

It would not surprise me if they can help you land an interview, but if you are unqualified you will not get in, regardless of who your parents are.

 

[hushcom]

1- Do you look at an applicant's other acceptances in your decision process? (i.e. if they are accepted to a "better" school, are you less inclined to accept them?)
2-Is admissions school specific? Does your school have a higher acceptance rate/interview rate for certain schools?

1 - At this point we cannot see a candidate's other acceptances unless we accept him/her. Later we will see more, and yes, it can impact the order of the wait list.
2 - We do have some feeder schools that send us a disproportionate number of applicants. I'm not sure what that's about. I am not one of the screeners, so answering this one is a bit out of my depth.

 

[hushcom]

Hi! So unique q about my app. It seems that my statistics are such that I am in limbo (not reject but not the best candidate) at top (1-10 ranked) schools but also being considered as "will not realistically go here" at mid and low tier schools. This has been very frustrating for me this cycle, as schools have reached out to me (one sent a personalized rejection letter stating that I was a great applicant but it was important for them to interview and accept students who would seriously attend). I am wondering if you have any insight on this-if top schools put me in limbo and mid-low (purely based on ranking) put me in "will not go here let's not waste an interview on this person" pile, how the heck am I supposed to get in anywhere! I already contacted schools saying I would love to attend but they just don't believe me!!!

An odd situation. Most schools I am aware of are sophisticated enough to not interview a lot of people who are considered to have low probability of attending. If you have any more interviews coming up you may consider informing your interviewer up front about the disappointing season. Still being on the market in February/March may cajole somebody into snapping you up. Assuming, of course, that there is not some other reason you are having no luck.

 

[hushcom]

Would having an EMS job during junior year and senior year be considered a good amount of time?

Yes, assuming you aren't pulling one shift a quarter.

 

[hushcom]

You mentioned an unbalanced score of 5vr 14ps and 15bs gives you a serious pause. Would a 9vr 12 ps 15bs give you the same pause and why????? (I feel like I know the answer but want to hear in words)

Not really. A 9 in VR is not a bad score. I would just assume that you knew your bio up one side and down the other.

 

[hushcom]

Thanks for the insight!

I obviously don't know how many times you've come across this scenario but how do you view/deal with with an applicant who has suffered through the loss of a parent during college? I am asking this because I struggled with my pre-med courses freshman year and after my father passed away suddenly in sophomore year I have rebounded to do well, even in some tough science courses. What are your opinions of an applicant and/or interviewee who presents this scenario?

I have come across this scenario (or a similar one) more often than I thought I would. It is completely understandable for this to happen, especially if the timing of the grade drop and rebound fits with the event. It should obviously be explained somewhere in your app, and can demonstrate tenacity and coping skills.

Sorry about your father.

 

[chenzt]

1 - At this point we cannot see a candidate's other acceptances unless we accept him/her. Later we will see more, and yes, it can impact the order of the wait list.

Can you elaborate?

My understanding was that only schools that have accepted me can see where else I have been accepted to. Is this wrong/waitlisted schools can also see this info?

 

[hushcom]

Thanks for taking the time out to answer these questions.

Have you come across/interviewed applicants who were nurses?

How do you feel about these applicants and would switching from nursing to medicine after 2-3 years give you any pause?

In general, how have they performed in school and beyond?

Thanks!

I don't know about former nurse performance in our school (yet), but the ones I know in practice are almost all exceptional doctors. As with other career changers, you need to have and articulate a compelling case for wanting to switch. Whatever you do, don't trash nursing in the process.

 

[Chillywilly]

Is a 6 in verbal truly an app killer even if the science scores were above a 10, and the gpa is above 3.8?

 

[hushcom]

Can you elaborate?

My understanding was that only schools that have accepted me can see where else I have been accepted to. Is this wrong/waitlisted schools can also see this info?

Progressively more information is available to schools as the year progresses. By May 15 we can see where everyone who applied is accepted. I do not think we can ever find out about wait list status at other schools.

 

[hushcom]

Is a 6 in verbal truly an app killer even if the science scores were above a 10, and the gpa is above 3.8?

It certainly throws some cold water on things. If you get a 6 or below on the verbal you should retake the MCAT. If you cannot get above a 6 despite multiple takes that gives me a lot of concern. I can live with a 7, but prefer to see 8+.

 

[hushcom]

Thanks so much for this opportunity!

What are some common interviewee mistakes or shortcomings that you come across regularly?

I sometimes catch people who list research experience on their app but cannot explain what they allegedly did in the lab. That will get you sunk pretty quickly.

 

[hushcom]

Thank you so much for doing this, @hushcom!

For someone with a low GPA (let's just say, ~3.45) and an above average MCAT (~35), would you recommend an SMP to bring up the GPA? In your opinion, how much do SMPs really bolster one's application? (all other parts of the application being stellar- i.e. extracurriculars, LORs, etc.)

A 3.45 is not a bad GPA, and a 35 MCAT demonstrates that you can handle standardized tests. Offhand I would say an SMP is a waste of time and money for this scenario.

 

[snowflakes]

I am going through the thread to try and catch up, so I apologize if this is piecemeal. It is difficult for anyone who has never served on an adcom to appreciate the sheer volume of qualified, appealing candidates that come through. People with strong academic records, compelling life stories, solid ECs, etc., they are in seemingly endless supply. But over time you begin to see the subtle differences that distinguish candidates a bit more clearly. Some of us prioritize different things, but when we put our heads together and parse and application we can usually render a decision that makes (almost) everyone comfortable. Experience certainly pays. I wish I had more of it.

Could you elaborate on the bolded please? What would be some examples of these subtle difference? Thank again!

 

[Straw Hat]

I don't know about former nurse performance in our school (yet), but the ones I know in practice are almost all exceptional doctors. As with other career changers, you need to have and articulate a compelling case for wanting to switch. Whatever you do, don't trash nursing in the process.

Thank you. I know that will eventually be an interview question I'd have to be delicate about. I don't want to trash the NP route but I will without a doubt be asked why not NP. I don't know how compelling my case for switching would be though. It wasn't a single moment but really just a gradual process through thousands of hours of experience. I want more responsibility, knowledge, and medical skills that I can put it into practice. And I don't want the degree behind my name to limit how or what I can practice. So for me, training, knowledge, and scope of practice wise, MD is the way to go and nothing else compares.

How does that approach sound?

 

[pyrrion89]

1 - At this point we cannot see a candidate's other acceptances unless we accept him/her. Later we will see more, and yes, it can impact the order of the wait list.

So if you see a candidate has been accepted to really good schools, does that shift their order on your waitlist up or down? I mean, if they have a good list of accepted schools, then do you think, "Oh, why bother offering him an acceptance if he might go somewhere else?" and he moves down the waitlist, or do you think, "Wow, he must be good if he has these great acceptances?" and he moves up the list?

 

[hushcom]

So if you see a candidate has been accepted to really good schools, does that shift their order on your waitlist up or down? I mean, if they have a good list of accepted schools, then do you think, "Oh, why bother offering him an acceptance if he might go somewhere else?" and he moves down the waitlist, or do you think, "Wow, he must be good if he has these great acceptances?" and he moves up the list?

More the former. For example, if a student from another state is accepted at his/her state school, unless we want to expend a scholarship we pretty much know that he/she will not be coming.

 

[Jimsy]

What can one do to increase his/her chances of getting an acceptance off a waitlist? Or is it pretty much out of our control at that point?

 

[hushcom]

Could you elaborate on the bolded please? What would be some examples of these subtle difference? Thank again!

It is somewhat difficult to describe in detail, but you get better at seeing certain patterns in applications. You are essentially looking at a whole bunch of decisions made by someone: where and why they chose to go to college, why they picked their major(s), how they arranged their course schedule to meet achieve their goals, how hard they chose to study, what other things they decided to do with their time, how they handled significant life events, why the chose medicine, what sort of cues they gave during the interview, who they decided to get LORs from (and who they did not), and what those LORs truly say about them. At first glance almost everyone looks great, but eventually you start to pick out the chaff. Relatively speaking, that is.

 

[Command]

How much money is set aside each year for the interview process & how much do you get paid to interview kids? I like to rank schools based on their spread.

 

[hushcom]

@hushcom How do you view scribing experience?

Positively. It's a good way to get solid exposure to the daily practice of medicine. A good LOR from a physician is a bonus.

Also, what would you think of an applicant with this scenario?
The applicant started at community college due to financial reasons, (and worked three jobs during that time), then transferred to a good public university. At said university, the applicant didn't do well junior year (3.3), due to family issues and other reasons, but recovered senior year to a 3.8 (with a cumulative college and science gpa's of 3.6). Even though the gpa was brought back up senior year, is that junior year drop a significant disadvantage for the applicant?

It's somewhat difficult to say without seeing the course selection during junior and senior year. Quite a few people start out in community college, particularly in CA. With a solid MCAT I don't think it would hurt you too badly.

 

[hushcom]

How much money is set aside each year for the interview process & how much do you get paid to interview kids? I like to rank schools based on their spread.

I have no idea how much is spent on interviewing. The details of my compensation are a long story, but I can give you the strict monetary amount: $0.

 

[hushcom]

So I'm almost done with my second year I have absolutely zero EC's. I've been working almost 45 hours a week so I haven't gotten much time to do so. Will this make me look uncommitted? Also I got off to a very good start my first year but stumbled a bit last two semesters, it's not about how you start it's how you finish right?

The problem is you will have many competitors who both started and finished strong. Working that much is a huge extenuating circumstance, but you still need to get some clinical exposure (if you have not already) and find a solid EC or two. There is an impulse to be a box checker at this point in the game, but I would strongly advise you to find something you honestly enjoy and just do it.

 

[Laurenxxxx]

How much do you appreciate an upward trend in GPA? I did okay freshman year (B and B+ in general bio, B- and B in precalc then calc), mostly because studying was new to me since I was not motivated in high school. But since freshman year have I received nothing but A and A- in biology, chemistry, physics and calc 2. I got a 3.5 cumulative freshman year which is bogging down my 3.75-3.8 semesters since then (I'm currently a junior). My GPA is definitely my weakest spot right now because of freshman year. Thanks!!!!!!

 

[Command]

Do you dock points/give weaker feedback if a candidate is a cookie cutter applicant and has no unique EC or story? Also would you happen to be a mouth cancer surgeon?

 

[Spicegirl07]

Do admissions committees read letters of rec prior to inviting applicants or read them after a student already interviews, or both ?

 

[hushcom]

How much do you appreciate an upward trend in GPA? I did okay freshman year (B and B+ in general bio, B- and B in precalc then calc), mostly because studying was new to me since I was not motivated in high school. But since freshman year have I received nothing but A and A- in biology, chemistry, physics and calc 2. I got a 3.5 cumulative freshman year which is bogging down my 3.75-3.8 semesters since then (I'm currently a junior). My GPA is definitely my weakest spot right now because of freshman year. Thanks!!!!!!

You're fine, aside from a little neurotic premed behavior.😉

 

[Lya]

Thank you in advance for your time and comments.

1. Some committee members feel they can commune with the personal statement and divine a lot of information. Others say they are so often written by someone other than the applicant as to be useless. A committee member at another school once told me that she does not read them at all. So it could either be meaningless, your salvation, or something in between. Satisfied?

I read them with the intent of uncovering any serious mental pathology. Once or twice a year I get one that is truly moving. The rest are essentially interchangeable.

2. Too vague to answer in a reasonable fashion, and the answer would be too specific to me.

3. Not sure I understand this one.

Can you share more details about this? What has dazzled you? (Examples might be great if you are allowed to disclose.)

I am going through the thread to try and catch up, so I apologize if this is piecemeal. It is difficult for anyone who has never served on an adcom to appreciate the sheer volume of qualified, appealing candidates that come through. People with strong academic records, compelling life stories, solid ECs, etc., they are in seemingly endless supply. But over time you begin to see the subtle differences that distinguish candidates a bit more clearly. Some of us prioritize different things, but when we put our heads together and parse and application we can usually render a decision that makes (almost) everyone comfortable. Experience certainly pays. I wish I had more of it.

As you look back into your past, what did you learn about yourself, having seen how you prioritize different things and now being able to see the subtle differences?


My last question is: If you can change one thing about this whole medical school admission process, what would it be?



EDIT: I have one more question. You've said your strict monetary compensation is zero. What made you to be part of the admission committee in the first place? If you did so voluntarily, why?

 

[hushcom]

Do admissions committees read letters of rec prior to inviting applicants or read them after a student already interviews, or both ?

I do not know what happens at other schools, and I'm not sure our process is generalizable.