Another case of Chiropractors overstepping their bounds

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mmmcdowe

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By Emily Kaiser and Corbett B. Daly

PHOENIX (Reuters) – A Phoenix physician was arrested today on the unusual assault charge of striking a chiropractor whilst assisting during an emergency situation. The man, whose name is being withheld by authorities, was reportedly driving home last night on the I-10 highway system when he spotted a collision with injuries. He arrived on the scene to find a licensed practitioner of chiropractic medicine and several uninjured passengers working to resuscitate the unconscious driver of one of the vehicles involved in the crash.

The two physicians engaged in a verbal argument over the propriety of rotating the victim onto his stomach to allow for easier access to the spine, which the recently arrived physician vehemently argued against due to the patient's unknown condition. The dispute culminated in the now arrested man striking the doctor of chiropractic, knocking him down and allegedly stunning him. The doctor of medicine then administered first aid until the arrival of paramedics and authorities.

After taking statements from several witnesses, police took the man into custody. The officers in question were unable to be reached for statements, but Dr. Michael Aprin, D.C., had much to say. "It is absolutely ludicrous that [the arrested physician] would bring up his grudge against chiropractors during such a critical situation. When lives are at stake, such petty things are inappropriate and dangerous. We are both equivalent practitioners of medicine, and his lack of professionalism was disappointing." Aprin also indicated that he intended to file a malpractice suit on behalf of the injured man that he was assisting.
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🙁 Whenever I read something like this the song "A beautiful world" goes through my head...
 
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It is absolutely ludicrous that [the arrested physician] would bring up his grudge against chiropractors during such a critical situation. When lives are at stake, such petty things are inappropriate and dangerous. We are both equivalent practitioners of medicine, and his lack of professionalism was disappointing.
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If anyone who thinks that chiropractors and physicians are not 'equivalent practitioners of medicine' has a 'grudge,' count me in.
 
Just to play devils advocate...

Who is to say that the chiropractor wasn't the person there with the most relevant experience? Having an MD doesn't make you an expert in everything. The article didn't say what the MDs specialty was. The chiropractor probably has tons of experience dealing with spinal issues which the MD may not and would then be the person best suited to determine whether moving the patient would be beneficial or harmful.


And say what you will about chiropractors but those dudes can make like $300k a year and work 4 days a week...
 
VanBrown said:
Just to play devils advocate...

Who is to say that the chiropractor wasn't the person there with the most relevant experience? Having an MD doesn't make you an expert in everything. The article didn't say what the MDs specialty was. The chiropractor probably has tons of experience dealing with spinal issues which the MD may not and would then be the person best suited to determine whether moving the patient would be beneficial or harmful.


And say what you will about chiropractors but those dudes can make like $300k a year and work 4 days a week...
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I think the big issue was the fact that the chiro wanted to move the guy. It doesn't give much detail, but I assume that the doc was afraid of injuring the guy further if he wasn't carefully handled.

I suppose it is possible that the chiro knew emergency first aid as well as the doc, but I can't think of any reason to flip him onto his stomach except for spinal manipulation....
 
VanBrown said:
Just to play devils advocate...

Who is to say that the chiropractor wasn't the person there with the most relevant experience? Having an MD doesn't make you an expert in everything. The article didn't say what the MDs specialty was. The chiropractor probably has tons of experience dealing with spinal issues which the MD may not and would then be the person best suited to determine whether moving the patient would be beneficial or harmful.


And say what you will about chiropractors but those dudes can make like $300k a year and work 4 days a week...
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What possible reason could there be for moving a patient with a traumatic injury for "easier access to the spine?" And to lay an unconscious person face down so that you can't monitor the airway at all?

And $300k a year for 4 days a week is part of what makes chiropractics seem so criminal.
 
"The two physicians engaged in a verbal argument over the propriety of rotating the victim onto his stomach to allow for easier access to the spine, which the recently arrived physician vehemently argued against due to the patient’s unknown condition."

Ok, so are chiropractors called physicians as well? Anyways, even if they are, they're not in my book.
 
what possible reasons might there be for rotating an unconcious patient with possible spinal damage when administering CPR? and this guy has the ignorant audacity of arguing with an Emergency medicine specialist!...🙄 wow...

The two physicians engaged in a verbal argument over the propriety of rotating the victim onto his stomach to allow for easier access to the spine, which the recently arrived physician vehemently argued against due to the patient’s unknown condition.


Besides the chiropractors' unprofessionalism, his response is what makes him a bigger tool:
"It is absolutely ludicrous that [the arrested physician] would bring up his grudge against chiropractors during such a critical situation. When lives are at stake, such petty things are inappropriate and dangerous"

I wonder what the legendary Panda Bear would have done in this situation?

The devildog in me would have probably done something similar... maybe not punch him, buy just slap the bejesus out of him. I hope the patient is doing alright...
 
well the article doesn't really say anything about the injured person's condition other than that they were unconcious...


and I am not saying that the chiropractor was right... I am just saying that given the limited information in the article it is pretty ridiculous for a group of pre-meds to be discounting the man just because he is a chiropractor.


Hooray for prejudice!!!
 
VanBrown said:
well the article doesn't really say anything about the injured person's condition other than that they were unconcious...
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a simple American red cross CPR/First Aid/AED course will help you understand why you might want to ensure spinal stabilization in an unconcious person involved in a vehicle accident.
 
The doctor did the right thing. If you see another practitioner doing something that could kill or seriously injure a patient, it is your duty to stop it. That includes verbal argument to stop it and striking the person in the face to stop it.

I am a current medical student, and a former EMT of many years, and I will tell you that it is absolutely not appropriate to turn a patient over to examine the spine on the scene of an accident. At most you do a quick check of the back for hemorrhaging injury. This is done while a team of rescuers stabilized the patient's back and rolls him onto a backboard, where his spine will be immobilized until he can be imaged in the ER. Manipulation (I'm not even talking chiropractic; I'm talking ANY movement) of the back is to be avoided at all costs until the extent of spinal injury can be determined in the ED. Last time I checked, chiropractic therapy is not indicated in any emergency situation, so regardless of whether you think chiro has value, those two were certainly not peers on the accident scene.
 
VanBrown said:
I am just saying that given the limited information in the article it is pretty ridiculous for a group of pre-meds to be discounting the man just because he is a chiropractor.


Hooray for prejudice!!!
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It is not prejudice to dismiss a chiropractor as unqualified to respond to a medical emergency, because in fact a chiropractor is not qualified to respond to a medical emergency. Chiropractors receive no training in emergency medicine and are not licensed to provide emergency medical care, where MD's have completed standardized emergency medicine courses and clinical programs regardless of their current medical specialty.

Maybe this individual chiropractor has taken a first responder course, but this would not make what the MD did less appropriate. A MD is at the pinnacle of medical care, and unless this chiropractor was also a doctor of emergency medicine, the MD had a moral obligation to provide the treatment he deemed appropriate. For a chiropractor to attempt to provide medical treatment based on the delusion that his scope of treatment is equal to a MD's is not just dangerous, its illegal.
 
This is what makes me think the chiro is a prima donna:

...allegedly stunning him...
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all chiropractors should be struck in the face on sight.

that is all.
 
Arjunsi said:
It is not prejudice to dismiss a chiropractor as unqualified to respond to a medical emergency, because in fact a chiropractor is not qualified to respond to a medical emergency. Chiropractors receive no training in emergency medicine and are not licensed to provide emergency medical care, where MD's have completed standardized emergency medicine courses and clinical programs regardless of their current medical specialty.

Maybe this individual chiropractor has taken a first responder course, but this would not make what the MD did less appropriate. A MD is at the pinnacle of medical care, and unless this chiropractor was also a doctor of emergency medicine, the MD had a moral obligation to provide the treatment he deemed appropriate. For a chiropractor to attempt to provide medical treatment based on the delusion that his scope of treatment is equal to a MD's is not just dangerous, its illegal.
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It's additionally possible that the MD had a legal duty to act. I wouldn't know about Arizona, but New York requires licensed physicians to stop at accidents and at least offer assistance.
 
Yea how dare the chiro question the unquestionable MD authority? I'm sure a DDS would have known his place and bolted as soon as the real doctor arrived. As a matter of fact, I think I'm overstepping my boundaries just by posting here. Forgive me almighty great ones. 🙄
 
NyCzPeter said:
Yea how dare the chiro question the unquestionable MD authority? I'm sure a DDS would have known his place and bolted as soon as the real doctor arrived. As a matter of fact, I think I'm overstepping my boundaries just by posting here. Forgive me almighty great ones. 🙄
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I hope you would get out of the way when a medical doctor arrives at a medical emergency. In turn, we will get out of your way when someone falls and knocks their teeth out.
 
you are all assuming a lot...

the article doesn't say anything about the person's condition other than them being unconcious.

maybe the person had an asthma attack or just fainted from the ordeal... you know nothing of the circumstances of what is going on but automatically assume that the chiropractor didn't know what he was doing because he is a chiropractor.
 
cpants said:
I hope you would get out of the way when a medical doctor arrives at a medical emergency. In turn, we will get out of your way when someone falls and knocks their teeth out.
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:laugh: seriously though, i'm only just entering med school this fall, and as a volunteer in the ER, one of the most common things you see is people coming in on backboards from car accidents until the MD checks them and can clear them of C-spine injuries. you don't try and crack the back of a guy who was just in a car accident :laugh:
 
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NyCzPeter said:
Yea how dare the chiro question the unquestionable MD authority? I'm sure a DDS would have known his place and bolted as soon as the real doctor arrived. As a matter of fact, I think I'm overstepping my boundaries just by posting here. Forgive me almighty great ones. 🙄
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you are wrong, face it and move on. All a chiropractor is good for in this situation is watching how real doctors work. As for a dentist they are good at what they do but in a medical situation they should stay out of the way and go back to cleaning/flossing teeth.

in medical cases the MD is the authority...thats why its called medical school and a medical degree. I know its a challenging concept but try to get you mind around it.
 
VanBrown said:
you are all assuming a lot...

the article doesn't say anything about the person's condition other than them being unconcious.

maybe the person had an asthma attack or just fainted from the ordeal... you know nothing of the circumstances of what is going on but automatically assume that the chiropractor didn't know what he was doing because he is a chiropractor.
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The article said there was a collision. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're supposed to assume that there's a spine injury in a car accident until they're cleared, in order to err on the side of caution.
 
As a patient who could potentially BE the victim of the accident, I would be very grateful to anyone who prevented this idiocy. The doctor is the good guy in this case, although obviously physical violence should be avoided at all costs. Even from what this rather slanted article says, it appears that the MD had no choice because the chiropractor wouldn't listen.
 
moving accident victims without a spine board? That dc should never be allowed to touch anyone again. 'course I maintain that any dc should not be allowed to touch anyone
 
Could you provide a link to the original article please? I can't find it on google at all. Even searching for the opening line in the article "phoenix physician was arrested" only brings up this exact thread. Is this a current article? I would like to find out more information on this if possible.
 
Am I a bad person for saying I wouldnt have stopped? There are just too many legal loopholes for treating patients in the field unless you are protected by law such as EMS.
 
ChubbyChaser said:
Am I a bad person for saying I wouldnt have stopped? There are just too many legal loopholes for treating patients in the field unless you are protected by law such as EMS.
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Some states have Good Samaritan statutes where you can be held accountable for failure to render assistance. Generally you are covered if you have no particular training but are trying to help due to lack of anyone qualified being present. I would say that you are not a bad person if someone else was already helping and you could not provide further assistance. I've passed up many accidents where people were already congregating on scene and I felt that I would only get in the way. When you have a medical license and decide to not help, then you are bad.
 
scottyT said:
Some states have Good Samaritan statutes where you can be held accountable for failure to render assistance. Generally you are covered if you have no particular training but are trying to help due to lack of anyone qualified being present. I would say that you are not a bad person if someone else was already helping and you could not provide further assistance. I've passed up many accidents where people were already congregating on scene and I felt that I would only get in the way. When you have a medical license and decide to not help, then you are bad.
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Contrary to what may have been propagated on Seinfeld, Good Samaritan laws protect you from lawsuit if you attempt to offer help *within your qualifications* and something goes amiss. For example if you know CPR and the person needs CPR and you give CPR and the person dies anyway, you're ok. If, however, you know CPR and the person needs CPR but you attempt to do a tracheotomy instead and it kills the person, then you're in trouble. Or, you know, if the person has a concussion or a broken leg and you attempt to manipulate their spine instead of monitoring their condition.
 
binko said:
Contrary to what may have been propagated on Seinfeld, Good Samaritan laws protect you from lawsuit if you attempt to offer help *within your qualifications* and something goes amiss. For example if you know CPR and the person needs CPR and you give CPR and the person dies anyway, you're ok. If, however, you know CPR and the person needs CPR but you attempt to do a tracheotomy instead and it kills the person, then you're in trouble. Or, you know, if the person has a concussion or a broken leg and you attempt to manipulate their spine instead of monitoring their condition.
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Ive heard a story about a nurse saving someones lives because of a tracheotomy and ended up getting sued....unless its mandated by my state, I wont be stopping at accidents when i graduate from Medical school or not.

Idk if its ethical or not, but o well.
 
scottyT said:
Could you provide a link to the original article please? I can't find it on google at all. Even searching for the opening line in the article "phoenix physician was arrested" only brings up this exact thread. Is this a current article? I would like to find out more information on this if possible.
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👍 now i'm suspicious...
 
ChubbyChaser said:
Ive heard a story about a nurse saving someones lives because of a tracheotomy and ended up getting sued....unless its mandated by my state, I wont be stopping at accidents when i graduate from Medical school or not.

Idk if its ethical or not, but o well.
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It depends on the state. But my point is that that's what the "Good Samaritan" laws are about.
 
binko said:
It depends on the state. But my point is that that's what the "Good Samaritan" laws are about.
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Good Samaritan laws protect people acting on good faith. I was pointing out that some states (Minnesota and Vermont according to Wikipedia) have provisions to hold a person accountable for not rendering reasonable aid. What was propagated on Seinfeld that you are talking about?
 
scottyT said:
Could you provide a link to the original article please? I can't find it on google at all. Even searching for the opening line in the article "phoenix physician was arrested" only brings up this exact thread.
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Weird...
 
Druggernaut said:
And $300k a year for 4 days a week is part of what makes chiropractics seem so criminal.
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That's the dumbest thing I've seen written on here in a long time. Maybe this was true in the 1970's, but now a days there is nothing more saturated that chiropractors. The average salary is like 80k, and you're never going to make 300k a year as a chiro anymore. Way too many clowns doing it. The chiro my whole family sees was the big dog in our town up until the late 90s ... now the guy personally calls houses to remind people to come in for back care and mails out pamphlets about his healthy system for living regiments.

The MD was right to get the guy the hell out of there. I also don't care what specialty the MD was ... he was way the **** more qualified. Unless the DC said 'I worked in EMS in the past 5 years,' which he clearly didn't after he flipped a trauma patient over onto his stomach, the DOCTOR was right to step in. The DC mine as well have said 'I'm not a doctor, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.'

I don't have an inherent beef with chiros who stay within their scope, but this is absurd. You don't see doctors showing up at a fire and ordering the firefighters around ... nor should you see a chiropractor trying to do what an MD/DO does with an MD standing right there.
 
scottyT said:
Could you provide a link to the original article please? I can't find it on google at all. Even searching for the opening line in the article "phoenix physician was arrested" only brings up this exact thread. Is this a current article? I would like to find out more information on this if possible.
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No results for "Michael Aprin"+chiropractic, either.
 
binko said:
Contrary to what may have been propagated on Seinfeld, Good Samaritan laws protect you from lawsuit if you attempt to offer help *within your qualifications* and something goes amiss. For example if you know CPR and the person needs CPR and you give CPR and the person dies anyway, you're ok. If, however, you know CPR and the person needs CPR but you attempt to do a tracheotomy instead and it kills the person, then you're in trouble. Or, you know, if the person has a concussion or a broken leg and you attempt to manipulate their spine instead of monitoring their condition.
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:laugh::laugh:

VanBrown: Granted I know nothing about medicine, but if someone is unconscious after a traffic collision I think that it is safe to say that the persons condition is serious. Sure a chiropractor is better than no one helping, however when a real doctor shows up the chiropractor needs to stop doing whatever they are doing.


Also: What the **** is up with the chiropractor filing a malpractice suit on behalf of the patient?
 
NotAndrew said:
:laugh::laugh:

VanBrown: Granted I know nothing about medicine, but if someone is unconscious after a traffic collision I think that it is safe to say that the persons condition is serious. Sure a chiropractor is better than no one helping, however when a real doctor shows up the chiropractor needs to stop doing whatever they are doing.


Also: What the **** is up with the chiropractor filing a malpractice suit on behalf of the patient?
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BUt they are "equivalent practicioners of medicine" haha
 
Like others have stated I have not been able to turn up anything close to an original article on this. It also seems the only thing the two alleged authors wrote together was a piece on AIG. I am also having trouble finding anything on a Dr. Michael Aprin D.C.
 
You guys caught me. This is an early April fools joke, because I knew you'd never fall for it if I posted it on April first. Hence Aprin/April 🙂. Sorry if this upsets anyone, I wasn't expecting people to take it this seriously. I guess it just shows you how sadly close this is to reality!

Happy early April fools!
 
this is why doctors order alcohol on long flights and why residents tell everyone they are grad students. the moral of the story is, don't try and help people or you will get your ass sued.
 
mmmcdowe said:
You guys caught me. This is an early April fools joke, because I knew you'd never fall for it if I posted it on April first. Hence Aprin/April 🙂. Sorry if this upsets anyone, I wasn't expecting people to take it this seriously. I guess it just shows you how sadly close this is to reality!

Happy early April fools!
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WOW, you got me...

Get him!

torchesandpitchforks.jpg
 
mmmcdowe said:
You guys caught me. This is an early April fools joke, because I knew you'd never fall for it if I posted it on April first. Hence Aprin/April 🙂. Sorry if this upsets anyone, I wasn't expecting people to take it this seriously. I guess it just shows you how sadly close this is to reality!

Happy early April fools!
Click to expand...

Wow you got me. I mean man, I am sure many people don't read until this far.
 
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