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another criminal charge question

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by jason12345, Jul 26, 2011.

  1. jason12345

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    Sorry if I didn't make appropriate use of the search function, I apologize in advance. When I was fourteen I got arrested for having fireworks in city limits silly I know. But also about a year later I was also arrested for having marijuana paraphernalia. This was over a decade ago for me now, I dont even remember the specifics. Would those incidences have to be reported, I was pre-eighteen. Is there a way I can even check if I have a record?
     
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  3. FrkyBgStok

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    you could run a background check yourself.
     
  4. danzman

    danzman The Ace of Spades
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    Google "FBI criminal background check"
    Will cost you 18 bucks, and you need some fingerprints.
     
  5. zooboy827

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    #4 zooboy827, Jul 26, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  6. Kalamazoo

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    Call the court system where you received the charges and ask them if it's on your record. This will save you money and you will find out quickly. Good luck!
     
  7. 374018

    374018 Filet Mignon
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    It depends on the charge... If it's a felony it could be on your record still, misdemeanor and civil citations I don't know. Varies by state. I would check public records if I were you and make some calls.
     
  8. FutureDrB

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    As the police officer stated above, your juvenile record is not public and cannot be viewed by ANYONE except law enforcement agencies.

    Here in Texas, you can't even view your own juvenile record without a court order. I just went through all this myself a few weeks ago.
     
  9. danzman

    danzman The Ace of Spades
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    Your juvenile record is very much available via an FBI search. It just depends who is looking.

    A med school will not be able to see it.
    A residency program can see it only if they are affiliated with a VA system
    A medical board WILL see it.

    No amount of expunging or covering up will change this.
    If it is on an FBI search, it will stay there forever.
     
  10. FutureDrB

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    This is not correct. I have gotten my FBI file and it does not include/show any incidents that occurred when I was a minor. (And I have two.)

    As I stated in my previous post, your juvenile record is EXTREMELY protected and no one will be able to see it except law enforcement agencies.

    The only thing you need to ensure is that you were a minor at the time the incident occurred. States have different measures for what constitutes being a minor.

    If you want to PM and I can give you more information. Unfortunately, I have a ton of experience dealing with these matters.
     
  11. jason12345

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    Thanks for all the advice, I have three class c misdemeanors, all pre-18. I also live in Texas. I just called the courthouse and she read to me all my charges, does this mean people who run background checks on me will too?
     
  12. FutureDrB

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    She gave you that information over the phone?! Wow. :eek:

    When I wanted to find out my juvenile record I had to go through the entire legal process, which involved driving to the juvenile records department in downtown Dallas, sitting in court while the judge signed the court order releasing the records, taking that back to the records department, waiting 3 days for the records to be pulled, driving back up there and then finally seeing what was on there.

    She shouldn't have given you any information over the phone...and certainly is not legally allowed to give it out to anyone else.
     
  13. jason12345

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    Well what makes me nervous now is I've been on google, ( I know not credible) but some sites say that a minor is 17(in texas). So does that mean only texas and other states where minors is 17 will be able to see my charges? Will I be fine at applying to other states?
     
  14. FutureDrB

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    See private message.
     
  15. danzman

    danzman The Ace of Spades
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    Trouble is, this is a state to state thing. Here is my take; I was told by a member of the board of medicine that they can see every time you were arrested as a juvenile as long as you were fingerprinted (thus entered into the FBI database.) I have a juvenile record that is still on the FBI database and showed up on my FBI background check. (Are you sure you did the FBI one and not just a state?) They can see what you were charged with but not the outcome of those charges. So if you were arrested for attempted murder but all charges were dropped, they would only see the attempted murder. The only way to see the court cases is with a court order. I was told that most medical boards simply do not care about any juvenile crimes and will not hold it against you. In one particular state, I was told that they specifically will not question any juvenile charges no matter the severity. The head of my schools legal dept told us this and also added that the military will be able to see juvenile records (for those looking to join) and that any residency that is affiliated with a VA will automatically be able to see them also. The gray issue is what to do with the charges. Every state has something that essentially says, no felons can be physicians, and some state that no one who has ever been convicted/adjudicated of a crime of moral turpitude can be a physician. However, every state has a different definition of this. Basically, they leave it up to the board of medicine to decide.

    I have also spent a great deal of time/money looking into this and have come to one conclusion. No one can give you a straight answer. Even if the medical board denies your license you can still petition the state supreme court (I was told this actually happens). I believe that anytime you are fingerprinted after being arrested a permanent record is kept by the arresting party and available to the FBI. However it is quite possible that those records are lost or simply not made available due to age or administrative problems (again, I am told this is actually quite common).
     
  16. FutureDrB

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    I can only speak to my personal experiences navigating this legal mess in Texas.

    Yes, I have gotten both state and FBI background checks done and none of my minor arrests/final case dispositions appear anywhere. As you mentioned, the only time they have ever shown up is when I was joining the military.

    I'm not concerned at all with my minor arrests showing up on a medical background check, and I have no intention of disclosing them, because I'm certain juvenile records cannot be made public.

    Even if you have adult arrests, it's really not that big of a deal unless you have an actual conviction, since the med school application only asks if you've ever been "convicted" of a crime. Granted, your adult arrests are going to show up when the med school does the background check before you matriculate, but again, if it's not a conviction, who cares? They can't deny you based on an arrest alone. So, if they turn around after you get accepted and say you are no longer able to attend because of an arrest...lawsuit time.

    Although, God I hate people who sue. Haha.

    But to address what danzman said above, it is a state-by-state matter, but not really, because the medical school you get accepted to is going to run your FBI file. In short, PAY TO GET A COPY OF YOUR FBI FILE and see what's on there. That's all the medical board is going to see.
     
  17. zooboy827

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    #16 zooboy827, Jul 27, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  18. danzman

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    I agree with this. The issue of previous criminal records is blown a little out of proportion on here. However, there are some crimes which may very well prevent you from becoming a physician and its a shame that its so damn hard to get solid info about this. It was my understanding that the state medical boards did an FBI CJIS search on applicants and that was how they got their info (this comes from the head of my schools legal dept). I was told that anytime a person was fingerprinted, the FBI had access to this record but only to see the arrest and charges. I wonder if you or anyone else could offer up any information as to how medical boards get their info? It has already been stated that the military can see all of a persons arrests, and a member of the medical board told me they could see the same thing as the military, by what system do they use? I had assumed that this was all via a CJIS report. Is there another way to view these records?
     
  19. zooboy827

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    #18 zooboy827, Jul 27, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  20. JaggerPlate

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    medical school and residency programs won't see this and I believe AMCAS/AACOMAS specifically says something about not including juvie records (especially since they are sealed at 18).

    Having said that ... medical boards see EVERYTHING. No debate, no anecdotes, etc ... professional licensing boards, ESPECIALLY medical boards honest to god have free reign over anything that's happened in the past. Juvie, expunged, dropped, etc, they will see it. The good news is that you'll be fine to get a license, but you will have to tell the board during your application process and it could delay your license for a few weeks (not a big deal).
     
  21. JaggerPlate

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    Excellent post! Thank you for sharing your expertise.


     
  22. TriagePreMed

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    Do Osteopathic schools even require you to mention expunged records? I know Allopathic doesn't. If Osteopathic doesn't either, the OP could look into expunging his record.
     
  23. zooboy827

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    This is from page 14 of the AACOMAS instructions:

    Legal Actions

    [FONT=Utopia Std,Utopia Std][FONT=Utopia Std,Utopia Std]Osteopathic medical schools require you to answer this question honestly and provide all information. Full disclosure will avoid any delay and/or distressing situation. ..

    [FONT=Utopia Std,Utopia Std][FONT=Utopia Std,Utopia Std]If you answer yes to the legal action question, a new box will open for you to provide an explanation. Many colleges will require criminal background checks for matriculation and progression in your medical education. Failure to provide accurate information in answering this question will result in an investigation. While an untruthful answer may not be discovered immediately, if it is discovered, it may be grounds for dismissal from medical school even after completion of several years of study. ..
    [FONT=Utopia Std,Utopia Std]


    I don't want to find out what AACOMAS means by the term "distressing situation". Secondly, they make it clear that you can be dismissed even after completion of several years of study for an "untruthful statement".

    That being said, the actual application question asks "Have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor or felony? Do you have any pending cases? (exclude parking violations) *

    Finally, if you combine that with the legalese contained in the AACOMAS agreement, and school secondary agreements you sign stating that the information you provided in the application is true.

    [FONT=Utopia Std,Utopia Std]I don't think it's worth the risk of being found out, especially with the differences in juvenile disclosures depending on the state. Disclose and explain. .






    .
    [FONT=Utopia Std,Utopia Std].
    [FONT=Utopia Std,Utopia Std]
    .
     
  24. danzman

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    Thanks for the info. The boards are basically judge, jury and hangman when it comes to these things. As stated, because every board is different its imposable to tell the outcome without going through it. I do wonder how they and the military get their info though. Do you think it is solely from a CJIS? I understand that they can ask for anything they want and have heard of someone having to supply both high school and undergrad transcripts to prove that they had in fact taken all the pre reqs for med school.
     
  25. zooboy827

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    #24 zooboy827, Jul 27, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  26. zooboy827

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    #25 zooboy827, Jul 27, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  27. FutureDrB

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    Just to offer up some additional assistance...

    In Texas, we have the option of having our backgrounds checked BEFORE ever applying to medical school and or a state medical license. This is called a Criminal History Evaluation Letter.

    The cost is $100 (plus the $44.20 cost of fingerprints) and they will tell you straight up whether you can get licensed or not.

    http://www.tmb.state.tx.us/rules/criminalHistoryEvalLetters.php

    For those of you not from Texas, you might check with the state you are interested in becoming licensed in to see if they have a similar program.
     
  28. danzman

    danzman The Ace of Spades
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    That's interesting. I wonder if med boards routinely do the same? This is an example of the wording on one states statute


    "Has been finally adjudicated and found guilty, or entered a plea of
    guilty or nolo contendere in a criminal prosecution, for any offense
    reasonably related to the qualifications, functions or duties of an osteopathic
    physician, or for any offense involving moral turpitude, whether or not
    sentence is imposed, and regardless of the pendency of an appeal;"

    A crime of moral turpitude is a broad term and could include assault, adultery, bribery, theft, or petty larceny. What is hard to find out, is if these are held against an applicant if they are a juvenile. As read above I would say yes, but a member of the board told me no.
     
  29. danzman

    danzman The Ace of Spades
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    Now that's pretty neat. Thanks for the info!
     
  30. jason12345

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    I think I might create a thread called "Those who have Disclosed a Crime and matriculates". If no one posts, I think one can assume your application gets tossed aside.
     
  31. danzman

    danzman The Ace of Spades
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    Here is the state of Colorado's statute


    "

    • A conviction must be reported within thirty days even if an appeal is pending. If, however, an appeal results in the reversal of a conviction, the physician may update his or her Transparency Act profile accordingly.
    • Juvenile adjudications are not “convictions” as that term is used in the Transparency Act, and need not be reported.
    • A conviction that has been sealed or expunged by a court of competent jurisdiction need not be reported. If a conviction that has already been included in a physician’s Transparency Act profile is later sealed or expunged by a court of competent jurisdiction, the physician may update his or her Transparency Act profile accordingly.
    According to this, no juvenile adjudications or sealed/expunged records need to be reported.
     
  32. FutureDrB

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    Oh, and to really butter your biscuits, the doctor I shadow is a convicted felon, with two charges in his past. (He's a family friend, that's how I know.) The doctor who delivered my daughter also joked that he used to be a cocaine addict in his youth and had several arrests.

    When it comes to what is possible, the lines are often blurred. People with records think the world is over. Trust me, it's not.
     
  33. zooboy827

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    #32 zooboy827, Jul 27, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  34. FutureDrB

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    You hit the nail on the head. I think we/society doesn't hear about all the professionals out there with convictions, etc., because no one is going to divulge that information. I'm certainly not going to walk around with a shirt on advertising my arrests. Haha. So, it's just assumed that it isn't possible to become licensed.
     
  35. zooboy827

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    #34 zooboy827, Jul 27, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  36. danzman

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    I would agree. My guess is that a pretty large chink of med students have some sort of criminal record. I have yet to hear about someone not being able to get a license.
     
  37. FutureDrB

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    Here is Texas' statue as it applies to applying/obtaining a medical license:

    Sec. 155.008. CRIMINAL RECORD CHECK.
    (a) The board may submit to the Texas Department of Public Safety a complete set of fingerprints of each license applicant, and the department shall classify and check the fingerprints against those in the department's fingerprint records. The department shall certify to the board its findings regarding the criminal record of the applicant or the applicant's lack of a criminal record.
    (b) Each applicant shall submit information to the board detailing any conviction for a felony or a Class A or Class B misdemeanor or a deferred adjudication for a felony or Class A or Class B misdemeanor for a violation relating to:
    (1) Medicare, Medicaid or insurance fraud;
    (2) the Texas Controlled Substances Act or intoxication or alcoholic beverage offenses;
    (3) sexual or assaultive offenses; and
    (4) tax fraud or evasion.

    The Texas Occupations Code is a little less specific and states the following:

    § 164.051. GROUNDS FOR DENIAL OR DISCIPLINARY ACTION.
    (a) The board may refuse to admit a person to its
    examination or refuse to issue a license to practice medicine and
    may take disciplinary action against a person if the person:
    (1) commits an act prohibited under Section 164.052;
    (2) is convicted of, or is placed on deferred adjudication community supervision or deferred disposition for:
    (A) a felony; or
    (B) a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude;
     
  38. JaggerPlate

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    I agree 100%. Medicine isn't one of those areas where it's better to seek forgiveness opposed to asking permission. If you're open and explain to some PD that you have a charge that was dropped for getting caught with an MJ pipe when you were 17 ... you may get a stern talking to, miss out on a few potential interviews, etc. You sweep it under the rug and it comes up in a background check ... you'll be dismissed from your residency program and labeled a NMRP/ERAS match violator and essentially have 0 chance of obtaining a residency.

    Not worth it. Be honest when asked.





     
  39. jason12345

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    I will be disclosing everything. I just need to know what I need to disclose. I would assume everything that comes back on FBI background check? The reason I ask I don't mind explaining the mj pipe when I was 17, but is explaining the sparklers when I was 14 necessary? I will be 25 the time I apply.
     
  40. jason12345

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    Last post on the matter in hopes to help others in my situation that happen to google and end up reading this thread. My plan of attack is as follows.

    -Try my hardest to get to where I don't have to check the box that says have you been convicted of anything by either expungement or that non-exclusion.

    -If I cant get that done, I plan on somehow volunteering around here with at risk populations and try to inform them not to pop fireworks on 4th of July, or have any sort of paraphernalia, even at the age of 17, it will haunt you for LIFE.

    Hopefully if I have to go the second route I will write under the explain pull down that I was young, it was silly and I understand that Honest and Integrity are integral on becoming a good physician. And hopefully it will be a good story to tell the Adcoms, good story's are always good right? And now I shall sleep good tonight, and prepare for my Ecology final in a week.
     
  41. zooboy827

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    #40 zooboy827, Jul 28, 2011
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  42. kittywampus

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    Well what if you were not a minor, and have real charges against yourself, that DO show up on a criminal record? Where should someone draw the line and give up on the thought of becoming a doctor? I'm going to start a new thread, and perhaps people will post about what they know constitutes "moral turpitude."
     
  43. TriagePreMed

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    There's no need to start a new thread. You can look into your state or the federal laws for what crimes they define to be moral turpitude. The question then becomes what happens if you have an expunged record. Do you list as having a conviction even though legally you can say in non-government documents that you don't? What about expunged records of Moral Turpitude. Are those important anymore?
     

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