Another HPSP Decision Thread

[Dr.RickSanchez]

Hello SDN,

I apologize because I know that you hate these types of threads, but I have spent a few hours researching the downsides of HPSP and it has started to give me some second thoughts.

I have been accepted to PCOM this year and am interested in Neurology as a specialty, though one never knows before they start clinicals. Do you suppose I will have some difficulty with this in the military? It looks like, by going off of the presentation here, that the Army has only a few spots for this area. https://education.mods.army.mil/MedEd/HPSP/Powerpoint/GMESlideshow2016.pdf
I do want to serve my country, and help people who are putting their life on the line... But I also don't want to get screwed over professionally. It seems like people on this forum are saying that the scholarship is financially and professionally disadvantageous what with residency match and pay. Also, I don't have substantial undergrad debt (some, but not a ton) and am not planning on getting married any time soon - so I am a bit of a free-bird right now.

I'm already in the middle of applying and after doing some research I am now feeling extremely conflicted. Yeah, it was really stupid to start without doing this research first, but I am sorta late to the process so I wanted to get as much done as possible quickly.

Can anyone offer some advice? Is the military just trying to screw me over like they do everyone else?

Thanks!

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[no0dles]

Hey,

I was in the same boat as you, but I still decided to move forward with the HPSP. SDN tends to have more negative discussions/concerns surrounding the HPSP so don't think everything is all bad. There are people that I've spoken with outside of SDN that are fine with their decision and are making good out of everything.

The military doesn't outright try to screw someone over. They allow you to choose your residency & location. However, you screw yourself over if you pursue a competitive residency with low GPA and board scores. In that case you might subject yourself to doing GMO tours or going into a residency that you're not interested in. In the military, this is considered to many "the worse case scenario." However, you still get paid fairly well w/o paying many expenses and don't have to be worried about debt. You can also choose to pursue a residency after you complete your GMO tours and serve your time. As long as you are a competitive applicant and you do extremely well on your rotations, you should be in a good position to match into the residency of your choice. Be realistic with who you are as an applicant and the residency you're looking to match into. This is similar in the civilian sector -- if you're not competitive and don't do well in your rotations, you won't get matched to your top choices. In addition, you will have amassed a great amount of debt and you'll be forced to work in a specialty you hate just to pay off your debt (for me this was more miserable than the Military worse case scenario).

I, too, have no undergrad debt and am single so I didn't decide to do the HPSP for financial reasons. I'm going into this to be able to serve my country and make an invaluable POSITIVE experience regardless of all the risks of joining the Military. There's also great benefits for serving your country. You can take advantage of the Post 9/11 GI Bill to go back to school. I'm planning on obtaining an MBA in Health Care Management to diversify my career as a physician after my service is over.

Given the pros/cons, risks/benefits of HPSP, I still decided to join the Army. In the end, it's what YOU make out of this experience and your opportunities.

I don't know if my post will help, but I hope I can provide you a perspective of someone who pushed through despite reading everything you are reading.

 

[68PGunner]

For all three branches, the needs of the service come first, which dictate the # of training spots for each specialty. It's the luck of the drawn in that sense.

 

[68PGunner]

Hey,

I was in the same boat as you, but I still decided to move forward with the HPSP. SDN tends to have more negative discussions/concerns surrounding the HPSP so don't think everything is all bad. There are people that I've spoken with outside of SDN that are fine with their decision and are making good out of everything.

The military doesn't outright try to screw someone over. They allow you to choose your residency & location. However, you screw yourself over if you pursue a competitive residency with low GPA and board scores. In that case you might subject yourself to doing GMO tours or going into a residency that you're not interested in. In the military, this is considered to many "the worse case scenario." However, you still get paid fairly well w/o paying many expenses and don't have to be worried about debt. You can also choose to pursue a residency after you complete your GMO tours and serve your time. As long as you are a competitive applicant and you do extremely well on your rotations, you should be in a good position to match into the residency of your choice. Be realistic with who you are as an applicant and the residency you're looking to match into. This is similar in the civilian sector -- if you're not competitive and don't do well in your rotations, you won't get matched to your top choices. In addition, you will have amassed a great amount of debt and you'll be forced to work in a specialty you hate just to pay off your debt (for me this was more miserable than the Military worse case scenario).

I, too, have no undergrad debt and am single so I didn't decide to do the HPSP for financial reasons. I'm going into this to be able to serve my country and make an invaluable POSITIVE experience regardless of all the risks of joining the Military. There's also great benefits for serving your country. You can take advantage of the Post 9/11 GI Bill to go back to school. I'm planning on obtaining an MBA in Health Care Management to diversify my career as a physician after my service is over.

Given the pros/cons, risks/benefits of HPSP, I still decided to join the Army. In the end, it's what YOU make out of this experience and your opportunities.

I don't know if my post will help, but I hope I can provide you a perspective of someone who pushed through despite reading everything you are reading.

This is certainly not the worst case scenario. Since you're going to be in the Army, the worst case scenario is you serving 15-18 months in the sandbox while missing the birth of your first daughter and son while having the boom box blowing at your ear every morning, causing a loss of hearing and mild PTSD after your tour.

Another possible worse scenario is your vehicle being hit by an IED as your unit is a conducting a convoy mission to a different location.

 

[WernickeDO]

Hello SDN,

I apologize because I know that you hate these types of threads, but I have spent a few hours researching the downsides of HPSP and it has started to give me some second thoughts.

I have been accepted to PCOM this year and am interested in Neurology as a specialty, though one never knows before they start clinicals. Do you suppose I will have some difficulty with this in the military? It looks like, by going off of the presentation here, that the Army has only a few spots for this area. https://education.mods.army.mil/MedEd/HPSP/Powerpoint/GMESlideshow2016.pdf
I do want to serve my country, and help people who are putting their life on the line... But I also don't want to get screwed over professionally. It seems like people on this forum are saying that the scholarship is financially and professionally disadvantageous what with residency match and pay. Also, I don't have substantial undergrad debt (some, but not a ton) and am not planning on getting married any time soon - so I am a bit of a free-bird right now.

I'm already in the middle of applying and after doing some research I am now feeling extremely conflicted. Yeah, it was really stupid to start without doing this research first, but I am sorta late to the process so I wanted to get as much done as possible quickly.

Can anyone offer some advice? Is the military just trying to screw me over like they do everyone else?

Thanks!

There have been some good discussions as of late regarding GME in the Army. This thread here: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/civilian-med-school-vs-usu.1242430/ discusses the whole small numbers thing. Neuro is a really good example. The GME slideshow that you looked at shows that interest was very low for several years, then all of a sudden they had a surplus of applicants. That means that people got pushed into TY's and are likely headed for a GMO tour.

I am going to have to go ahead and sort of disagree with no0dles' post regarding self selection. I do agree that you should punch your weight and make realistic choices, but in the Army it is entirely possible to be realistic and still not get selected. Let's say you are within the range of board scores and you do a couple of audition rotations, making good impressions at the training sites. You would be justified in applying to those specialties/locations. But Big Army may decide that they are giving 4 slots to the Air Force and 2 to people with family connections. It may be a year where a lot of more qualified/connected students are applying. You may find yourself of the losing end of this scenario. Nothing is guaranteed in the civilian world either but the higher numbers of available training spots insulate you somewhat.

The Army is not looking to screw anyone. In fact, the Army is under the impression that us docs are all fighting over who gets to do brigade surgeon tours. To the Army, placing you in a GMO spot is just as good as matching to urology. There is a mission to complete and we are all just tiny, insignificant molecules that make up a small portion of a cog that will likely be replaced anyway. If your goal is to become a board certified physician and to practice medicine, then avoid the military. There are just too many pitfalls and detours to prevent you from that goal.

 

[Dr.RickSanchez]

Thanks for the replies everyo

There have been some good discussions as of late regarding GME in the Army. This thread here: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/civilian-med-school-vs-usu.1242430/ discusses the whole small numbers thing. Neuro is a really good example. The GME slideshow that you looked at shows that interest was very low for several years, then all of a sudden they had a surplus of applicants. That means that people got pushed into TY's and are likely headed for a GMO tour.

I am going to have to go ahead and sort of disagree with no0dles' post regarding self selection. I do agree that you should punch your weight and make realistic choices, but in the Army it is entirely possible to be realistic and still not get selected. Let's say you are within the range of board scores and you do a couple of audition rotations, making good impressions at the training sites. You would be justified in applying to those specialties/locations. But Big Army may decide that they are giving 4 slots to the Air Force and 2 to people with family connections. It may be a year where a lot of more qualified/connected students are applying. You may find yourself of the losing end of this scenario. Nothing is guaranteed in the civilian world either but the higher numbers of available training spots insulate you somewhat.

The Army is not looking to screw anyone. In fact, the Army is under the impression that us docs are all fighting over who gets to do brigade surgeon tours. To the Army, placing you in a GMO spot is just as good as matching to urology. There is a mission to complete and we are all just tiny, insignificant molecules that make up a small portion of a cog that will likely be replaced anyway. If your goal is to become a board certified physician and to practice medicine, then avoid the military. There are just too many pitfalls and detours to prevent you from that goal.

Thank you for the replies everyone. By board certified you mean joining fellowships, correct? That is appealing to me, as well as academia. Are these very difficult in the military? What if I joined, served my time and then just got out?

 

[WernickeDO]

Thanks for the replies everyo

Thank you for the replies everyone. By board certified you mean joining fellowships, correct? That is appealing to me, as well as academia. Are these very difficult in the military? What if I joined, served my time and then just got out?

By board certified I mean having completed a residency and passed your board exam, allowing you to practice medicine in a given specialty, like IM, FM, EM, OB, etc. Fellowships in the military are another beast all together and I won't comment on them as I know nothing. Joining and serving your time as a GMO is an option. That's what I'm doing, but that is not what I would have preferred.

My comment reflects that you have a much higher chance of being pushed into a GMO tour and not completing residency in the military than if you just stay civilian. You said in your original post that you didn't want to get screwed over professionally by your military service. There is a chance that you will match, complete residency, and practice as a happy doc in the mil (although watch out for brigade surgeon tours), and there is a chance you won't. It's up to you to decide if you want to take the risk.

 

[Dr.RickSanchez]

By board certified I mean having completed a residency and passed your board exam, allowing you to practice medicine in a given specialty, like IM, FM, EM, OB, etc. Fellowships in the military are another beast all together and I won't comment on them as I know nothing. Joining and serving your time as a GMO is an option. That's what I'm doing, but that is not what I would have preferred.

My comment reflects that you have a much higher chance of being pushed into a GMO tour and not completing residency in the military than if you just stay civilian. You said in your original post that you didn't want to get screwed over professionally by your military service. There is a chance that you will match, complete residency, and practice as a happy doc in the mil (although watch out for brigade surgeon tours), and there is a chance you won't. It's up to you to decide if you want to take the risk.

I have done a bit more research and thinking on this decision. If I could get some more feedback I would really appreciate it.

1. After some research I am still unclear on how the skills learned in your residency could be unused in your repayment service - this "skill deterioration". Let's say I go to a residency in Neurology. Are you saying the military would then post me as a GMO or have me do things that aren't in my specialty? My recruiter (who you obviously take with a grain of salt) tells me there is not a chance of this.

2. Are there any circumstances where the military would have the authority to pull me out of civilian practice after my repayment is up, say 15 years down the road?

3. Can I just do 4 years of GMO and then get out without adding more time to my service? Obviously from a financial point of view this is a dumb idea, but it gives me some leeway when hedging my bets on matching in residency. Furthermore, if I don't match after the first tour, and end up serving 4 years of GMO would it be more worthwhile to just go do a civilian residency or try again for the military match?

 

[SirGecko]

I have done a bit more research and thinking on this decision. If I could get some more feedback I would really appreciate it.

1. After some research I am still unclear on how the skills learned in your residency could be unused in your repayment service - this "skill deterioration". Let's say I go to a residency in Neurology. Are you saying the military would then post me as a GMO or have me do things that aren't in my specialty? My recruiter (who you obviously take with a grain of salt) tells me there is not a chance of this.

2. Are there any circumstances where the military would have the authority to pull me out of civilian practice after my repayment is up, say 15 years down the road?

3. Can I just do 4 years of GMO and then get out without adding more time to my service? Obviously from a financial point of view this is a dumb idea, but it gives me some leeway when hedging my bets on matching in residency. Furthermore, if I don't match after the first tour, and end up serving 4 years of GMO would it be more worthwhile to just go do a civilian residency or try again for the military match?

1. Yes they can have you do things outside of your specialty. (My understanding is that the army battalion surgeon role is particularly bad about this) The other way this happens is you get assigned somewhere without the full scope of practice for your specialty and you wind up not seeing the cases you need to keep up your skills.

2. If you are still in the IRR because you never resigned from it they could do that.

3. Yes you can do four years as a gmo after internship and get out. Lots of people take that route. Whether that would be preferable to applying to return to the military match depends on your specific circumstances and values.

 

[WernickeDO]

I have done a bit more research and thinking on this decision. If I could get some more feedback I would really appreciate it.

1. After some research I am still unclear on how the skills learned in your residency could be unused in your repayment service - this "skill deterioration". Let's say I go to a residency in Neurology. Are you saying the military would then post me as a GMO or have me do things that aren't in my specialty? My recruiter (who you obviously take with a grain of salt) tells me there is not a chance of this.

2. Are there any circumstances where the military would have the authority to pull me out of civilian practice after my repayment is up, say 15 years down the road?

3. Can I just do 4 years of GMO and then get out without adding more time to my service? Obviously from a financial point of view this is a dumb idea, but it gives me some leeway when hedging my bets on matching in residency. Furthermore, if I don't match after the first tour, and end up serving 4 years of GMO would it be more worthwhile to just go do a civilian residency or try again for the military match?

1: Your recruiter is incorrect. To define things, a "GMO", or general medical officer, is an intern trained doc. A residency trained doc is not a GMO, and is unlikely to be assigned at the battalion level. If you train in neurology, your most likely assignment will be as a neurologist, with 2 caveats. The first being that you can still get tabbed for a brigade surgeon tour, and the second being stationed in a low acuity spot that does not have sufficient volume to maintain relevant clinical skills. The brigade surgeon job is admin and not medical, so this is less than desirable to those that want to practice medicine.

2: When you accept the HPSP you accrue 1 year active and 1 year reserve per year of scholarship, usually 4 years of each. Most HPSP students pay back reserve time while in residency. If you GMO and get out, you will pay back reserve time on the inactive ready reserve, or IRR. You will be a civilian during your IRR time, but if WWIII occurs then there is still a chance you get pulled back in. It's exceedingly rare to get pulled in from IRR but it is absolutely possible. Once your active and reserve is paid back, you're free.

3: If you GMO and GTFO you will do 4 years AD and 3 years IRR (1 year of reserve will be paid back during internship). If you return to the military for residency training it is possible to owe more time depending on how many years of training you do and how much time you owe at the beginning of your training. It's up to you to decide to go for the civilian match or try for the military match again. There are many pros and cons at that point but if you don't like being in the military no amount of money or vacation time will make it worth it.

 

[Armyhealth]

This is certainly not the worst case scenario. Since you're going to be in the Army, the worst case scenario is you serving 15-18 months in the sandbox while missing the birth of your first daughter and son while having the boom box blowing at your ear every morning, causing a loss of hearing and mild PTSD after your tour.

Another possible worse scenario is your vehicle being hit by an IED as your unit is a conducting a convoy mission to a different location.

Ha...what kind of doctor is in a convoy...as a 68W who has been in three combat tours I have only seen a couple doctors outside the wire and those are the ones that wanted to be there (usually a ortho surgeon who loves that kind of stuff)

 

[68PGunner]

Ha...what kind of doctor is in a convoy...as a 68W who has been in three combat tours I have only seen a couple doctors outside the wire and those are the ones that wanted to be there (usually a ortho surgeon who loves that kind of stuff)

You were not in Hoola enough unit. I have seen it.

 

[backrow]

Ha...what kind of doctor is in a convoy...as a 68W who has been in three combat tours I have only seen a couple doctors outside the wire and those are the ones that wanted to be there (usually a ortho surgeon who loves that kind of stuff)

I know of more than a couple Navy docs who spent a lot of their deployment traveling between multiple places in various vehicles.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[j4pac]

HPSP was made for idiots like me who wanted to serve without any thought of career motivations. I wanted to be in the Navy and I would have done it if they didn't give me a scholarship to do it. I'm glad I did it and would have regret not doing it...but understand that I'm probably not your typical HPSPer.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Armyhealth]

You were not in Hoola enough unit. I have seen it.

Critical Care Nurses, PA's....maybe a field surgeon without a specialty....we have helicopters to get our doctors from place to place...we try and keep our best assets out of harms way.

 

[HighPriest]

Rick Sanchez has a felony record and is on a terrorist watch list. I think that makes you ineligible.

 

[pgg]

Ha...what kind of doctor is in a convoy...as a 68W who has been in three combat tours I have only seen a couple doctors outside the wire and those are the ones that wanted to be there (usually a ortho surgeon who loves that kind of stuff)

Please stop, and apply palm to forehead:



Here, let me help you with that:




I don't know where you were, or what you were doing, or when you were doing it, but please don't confuse what you saw (or think you saw) with the totality of what has, is, or will be required of deployed physicians.

Most of us on this forum (in particular those of us who've been around since the early 2000s) have been deployed and have spent significant time "outside the wire" ...


Stay in your lane.

 

[Armyhealth]

Please stop, and apply palm to forehead:



Here, let me help you with that:




I don't know where you were, or what you were doing, or when you were doing it, but please don't confuse what you saw (or think you saw) with the totality of what has, is, or will be required of deployed physicians.

Most of us on this forum (in particular those of us who've been around since the early 2000s) have been deployed and have spent significant time "outside the wire" ...


Stay in your lane.

Fair enough! Though pre-2000 looks much different then now. Pre-2000 you didn't even have up armored vehicles and the fear of IED's going off on every convoy.

 

[colbgw02]

Ha...what kind of doctor is in a convoy...as a 68W who has been in three combat tours I have only seen a couple doctors outside the wire and those are the ones that wanted to be there (usually a ortho surgeon who loves that kind of stuff)

Critical Care Nurses, PA's....maybe a field surgeon without a specialty....we have helicopters to get our doctors from place to place...we try and keep our best assets out of harms way.

Fair enough! Though pre-2000 looks much different then now. Pre-2000 you didn't even have up armored vehicles and the fear of IED's going off on every convoy.

Did you really reply not once, but twice, about physician deployments based solely on pre-9/11 experience before admitting you didn't really know?

 

[pgg]

Fair enough! Though pre-2000 looks much different then now. Pre-2000 you didn't even have up armored vehicles and the fear of IED's going off on every convoy.

If I had a dollar for every Afghan mile I logged in post-2000 model Humvees that were hastily "uparmored" by a 1/4" thick half-height, no/open-window, bolted on door plate ...

And I spent less time in the field than most. It's too bad usnavdoc isn't around the forum these days. He could tell you a story or two about where his battalion commander thought his "best assets" should be.

 

[dr zaius]

2 of my attendings (now O-6 urologists) were deployed multiple times at the beginning/middle of the war (as urologists) and were a part of multiple convoys. Last year another attending from my department (O-6) was tapped for an admin type deployment and also was on numerous convoys. I don't think docs are being ferried around in cocoons of safety based on their experiences. It's obviously not as dangerous as some sort of offensive mission as the goal is to go from one place to another, but it's not exactly moving through completely controlled airspace in a helicopter either.

 

[Armyhealth]

Did you really reply not once, but twice, about physician deployments based solely on pre-9/11 experience before admitting you didn't really know?

What are you talking about...I talked about my deployment experience and said nothing about pre 9/11 before PGG brought up pre 9/11. When I deployed in 2003 we rolled around in soft shell vehicles with no doors and flak vests so I can only assume that it was similar before that deployment. However I am Army and they are Navy so it could be very different...

 

[colbgw02]

Please stop, and apply palm to forehead:



Here, let me help you with that:




I don't know where you were, or what you were doing, or when you were doing it, but please don't confuse what you saw (or think you saw) with the totality of what has, is, or will be required of deployed physicians.

Most of us on this forum (in particular those of us who've been around since the early 2000s) have been deployed and have spent significant time "outside the wire" ...


Stay in your lane.

Fair enough! Though pre-2000 looks much different then now. Pre-2000 you didn't even have up armored vehicles and the fear of IED's going off on every convoy.

What are you talking about...I talked about my deployment experience and said nothing about pre 9/11 before PGG brought up pre 9/11. When I deployed in 2003 we rolled around in soft shell vehicles with no doors and flak vests so I can only assume that it was similar before that deployment. However I am Army and they are Navy so it could be very different...

Yeah, but you talked about "pre-2000" in response to pgg pointing out that you were wrong. It was just confusing to me is all, which is why I asked. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[faheyra9]

Army HPSP applicant here, my packet is going to the April 4th boards. I have an acceptance to a DO school already. Does anyone have any knowledge of spots left this application cycle for the 4yr scholarships? How long has it been taking this year to hear back with a yes/no/waitlist?

 

[Gastrapathy]

I don't know.

 

[deleted480308]

Army HPSP applicant here, my packet is going to the April 4th boards. I have an acceptance to a DO school already. Does anyone have any knowledge of spots left this application cycle for the 4yr scholarships? How long has it been taking this year to hear back with a yes/no/waitlist?

Dude/ma'am,

3 times is overkill. If someone knows, they'll answer with 1 question

 

[Armyhealth]

Army HPSP applicant here, my packet is going to the April 4th boards. I have an acceptance to a DO school already. Does anyone have any knowledge of spots left this application cycle for the 4yr scholarships? How long has it been taking this year to hear back with a yes/no/waitlist?

There are 255 slots, about 115 have been taken so far. Most often it is about 1-2 weeks after the board date is when you will get your results.

 

[faheyra9]

There are 255 slots, about 115 have been taken so far. Most often it is about 1-2 weeks after the board date is when you will get your results.

Thank you

 

[DOArmy]

Army HPSP applicant here, my packet is going to the April 4th boards. I have an acceptance to a DO school already. Does anyone have any knowledge of spots left this application cycle for the 4yr scholarships? How long has it been taking this year to hear back with a yes/no/waitlist?

Have you heard back yet about being selected or your scroll? I applied this cycle as well.

 

[AvrgPreMedKid]

You can take advantage of the Post 9/11 GI Bill to go back to school

How does the GI Bill work with HPSP? Are you entitled to this benefit after serving your ADSO, or do you do additional time to earn this?

 

[MusicDOc124]

Hello SDN,

I apologize because I know that you hate these types of threads, but I have spent a few hours researching the downsides of HPSP and it has started to give me some second thoughts.

I have been accepted to PCOM this year and am interested in Neurology as a specialty, though one never knows before they start clinicals. Do you suppose I will have some difficulty with this in the military? It looks like, by going off of the presentation here, that the Army has only a few spots for this area. https://education.mods.army.mil/MedEd/HPSP/Powerpoint/GMESlideshow2016.pdf
I do want to serve my country, and help people who are putting their life on the line... But I also don't want to get screwed over professionally. It seems like people on this forum are saying that the scholarship is financially and professionally disadvantageous what with residency match and pay. Also, I don't have substantial undergrad debt (some, but not a ton) and am not planning on getting married any time soon - so I am a bit of a free-bird right now.

I'm already in the middle of applying and after doing some research I am now feeling extremely conflicted. Yeah, it was really stupid to start without doing this research first, but I am sorta late to the process so I wanted to get as much done as possible quickly.

Can anyone offer some advice? Is the military just trying to screw me over like they do everyone else?

Thanks!

This may have been mentioned, but I only read your post. If you want to serve, but 100% want to go into neuro which has such few spots, you can consider a couple of things: 1) do HPSP and apply to neuro, if you don't get it, do you intern year and a GMO, then reapply (if this doesn't obligate you if you don't match into it), and then continue on in neuro or get out (if you don't match into it) and go civilian. You served and get neuro. 2) don't do HPSP, apply civilian, and once you match, do FAP (Navy and Air Force have this, not sure about the army, but they probably have something at least similar), and then you get to serve and ensures you can apply to neuro with better chances of matching first time through.

 

[faheyra9]

Have you heard back yet about being selected or your scroll? I applied this cycle as well.

I got a call from my recruiter on 4/12 saying I was selected for scholarship. He did not have any info at the time about scroll and went on vacation two days later so I have no clue what to expect for a timeline

 

[SurgDoc95]

I got a call from my recruiter on 4/12 saying I was selected for scholarship. He did not have any info at the time about scroll and went on vacation two days later so I have no clue what to expect for a timeline

Same here (minus the vacation part)! According to mine there's not much we can do but sit back and wait for scroll approval which apparently is taking forever this year.