Antiquated curriculum?

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VelcroSky

U of MN Class of 2012
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  1. Veterinary Student
I'm curious as to what you all think about the curriculum. I'm still in my first semester and we are learning a whole lot of information that is regurgitated and flushed. I've gotten a peak at what the 2nd years have to do and the amount of sheer memorization is staggering. They're only going to maintain a small portion of this information. So what is the point of putting us through this torture. Surely there could be a less stressful curriculum that we would actually learn more useful stuff. I kind of feel like the schools are stuck in convention and only slowly evolving to see that this way of learning may not be the most efficient.
 
Ah the famous question.... why do we have to learn so much (many times seemingly pointless) stuff when we are going to forget to anyways!?!

As a 2nd year student who is doing a whole lot of the memorization/try not to flush thing; here is my opinion
first- you retain more than you think. i've come up with answers i never thought i'd remember... it's somewhere in your brain (usually) and if you study with the intent of learning and not just memorizing it makes a difference (yes- there is a lot of stuff i do just memorize... but that is not ideal)
second- i think the most important thing is that we learn it once so we can look it up later. that might sound weird but think about it.... you got a glimpse of it at some point in your schooling so 1) when a patient comes in you might remember something about some clinical sign they are showing and know to look it up and 2) once you do look it up all you have to do is glance at it and say 'oh yea- i remember that' also 3) how do you know what to look up if you've never even been exposed to it?

so it does kinda suck, especially when you are in the midst of it, but i think it is important and essential that we are taught as much as we can while we are in school. i also heard a rumor that US might be thinking of extending vet school to a 5 year program.??
 
I have a really hard time remembering things out of context. One subject I am having particular trouble with is Biochemistry.

I am good at Chemistry and before I got into vet school I was thinking of majoring in Chemistry. To me the way Biochemistry is taught at Melbourne University is pure regurgitation. A huge majority of what we are asked to remember is what specific enzymes do this, what drugs do this, without being properly taught the mechanisms behind why things do the things they do.

I find remembering a drug name stupid and useless (names change) rather we should be learning concepts.

Physiology also seems to require a lot of enzyme names etc.

I find about half of the course really enjoyable and come out feeling like I have learned something that I will remember, and the other half utter crap.

Sorry if my response is undecipherable, its exam time over here in Australia. :scared:
 
first- you retain more than you think. i've come up with answers i never thought i'd remember... it's somewhere in your brain (usually) and if you study with the intent of learning and not just memorizing it makes a difference (yes- there is a lot of stuff i do just memorize... but that is not ideal)
second- i think the most important thing is that we learn it once so we can look it up later. that might sound weird but think about it.... you got a glimpse of it at some point in your schooling so 1) when a patient comes in you might remember something about some clinical sign they are showing and know to look it up and 2) once you do look it up all you have to do is glance at it and say 'oh yea- i remember that' also 3) how do you know what to look up if you've never even been exposed to it?

Both good points. I'm often surprised at some of the stuff that I conjure out of my memory. "Oh, I thought I had forgotten that" and once I remember the first thing it often snow balls into an unlocking of a bunch of other buried memories.

And the second point is spot on. I can't tell you the enzymes of the pentose phosphate pathway but I know exactly where to find them in my Biochem book (assuming the internet vanished...). It's a time saver if nothing else: don't have to do as much perusing through books.
 
I think something we all need to remember is that the majority of us are not in clinics yet. It makes sense to me that I remember an inordinate amount of anatomy and usually forget it by the next test, but when I get to clinics there's a good chance it will come back to me pretty easily. Things are different when you start to apply your knowledge, not just regurgitate it in test format. These schools have been doing things this way for over 100 years, I'm inclined to think that maybe they have it figured out for the most part.
 
yes, yes. i complain mightily about this every time i have an exam.

sofficat makes some excellent points. i've discussed this with my 2nd year anatomy prof (i now work for him), and the idea is that you learn it now, so when you go back to it, you're just revising.

i've been struggling with this all year - pharmacology, pathology, nutrition, microbiology and parasitology. all are very heavy rote learning units. i decried the justice in memorising 195 species of bacteria, their staining and morphological characteristics, biochemical properties and metabolism, pathology, etc., etc. same with parasitology. too much!

but if i weren't "forced" to memorise it, i would prob'ly never look at it. and i remember way more than i think i will when it comes to the exam. i don't remember everything, and i know i won't, but i knew it and understood it at one point.

some things, however, i think are important to know off the top of your head, depending on circumstances. drugs are one of those things. in an emergency, you don't have time to "look it up." and you never quite know when you'll see an emergency. i hold onto the belief that i'll get a better understanding of the drugs as i see them in 4th and 5th year clinics, and i'll remember the ones that are most important because i've seen and used them in practice. i hope... by the way, isn't it only the trade names that change, while the chemical names remain consistent? we were advised to learn the chemical names eg amoxicillin-clavulanic acid vs. clavamox, or clavulox.

with the enzymes, i was lucky - we had a lot of rote learning, too, but the lecturer would always ask us, "why does that make sense." this was in my first year here, and i've carried it with me since. no matter what the subject is, i'm always asking, "why does that make sense." sometimes processes seem random, sometimes they don't know. but it helps me organise the material a bit better.

as for the schools having things figured out... maybe. maybe not. is there a better way of teaching things? prob'ly. a huge trade-off is lecturer time. we've gone to mostly multiple choice (mc) exams because the lecturers don't have time to mark 110 short answer/essay exams. but i find that i can skip through a mc exam without REALLY understanding the material. now, if i were expected to write out an essay about acute inflammation, you better believe i'd have a better understanding of the material.

i would like to see more practical hands-on things. i hate, hate, hate learning pathology from 2-dimensional photos. i can't change the view, i can't touch it, smell it, squeeze it, contort it. useless. especially if the photos are bad. get me into a post-mortem and have me cut some things up and see them first-hand. that's how i'll remember things. show me a video of the flare and wheal - i find explanations in textbooks lacking.

most importantly, give me a marking guide for my assignments and exams right after i submit them. there's so much learning lost here with a month delay between submission and feedback, and sometimes the feedback isn't that helpful. without a marking guide, i lose out on some of that learning (unless i'm willing to follow my lecturers around like a puppy dog asking question after question, which i'm not.)

one thing they like to do here is examine us on skills we haven't practised. for example, our path lecturer said on friday that the exam will push us to integrate all the concepts we've learned all semester. that's great. but we haven't had any pracs or assignments to practice this. exam time is a poor time to get assessed on something you haven't done.

i would put more emphasis on learning the material throughout the semester. it's important to know stuff at the end of the semester, but i think 80-100% final marks on the final exam is unnecessary.

all these things take time and planning. maybe they're realistic, maybe not. but they would all enhance my learning immensely.

but, yeah, rote learning sucks.
 
As stated above, you forget most of the information you learn, but you relearn it MUCH faster.

I've memorized (and forgotten) all the major biochem pathways at least 4-5 times. Right now, i could not give you more then 4-5 steps from either TCA, Glycolysis, Gluconeogenesis, Penthose 5, Cory, ect.

But having learned it so well 1 time, I can 'relearn' them all for an exam in less then 2 hours. But, in a lab setting (or clinical) im still going to open my Voet and Voet to make sure im right.
 
I am currently studying for our "bug parade" exam tomorrow so my opinion may be biased.

I agree that it seems rather useless to learn all the parasites, bacteria, and fungi that can infest any and all veterinary species as we aren't going to retain it. But I know that going back over this for boards will be faster and when I see a clincial presentation of it a little bell will go off somewhere and this information will be somewhere in my brain. Or at least enough of it to go look up the details.

So yes it sucks and I likely won't remember the pathogenesis for burkholderia malleri next week but if it comes up again there is at least hope of my recognizing it!

In case anyone really cares it was a bioterrorist agent in both world wars as it kills equines and is zoonotic (does that qualify it for "antiquated" information?).
 
I am currently studying for our "bug parade" exam tomorrow so my opinion may be biased.

Does anyone else have dreams where they hogtie their professor and carve "PARASITOLOGY SUCKS" into their forehead? Or is this just me? :laugh:

Honestly as a 2nd year, I have flipped back through my 1st year notes and saw that the 1st year profs were just trying to do us a favor by exposing us to stuff that we'd see later on in the curriculum - like, while learning about Cortisol in physiology, the prof said "...and that will show up as a stress leukogram, so remember that" and at the time i was like what the crap is a stress leukogram??!! Am I supposed to know this?? Is this going to be on the exam??!! Which I'd later find out nope, its not on the exam cuz that's Pathology. But at the time I just felt constantly swamped by little things to remember and then get all ticked off because they may/may not be on the exam.

I've decided that if its stuff that you REALLY need to know, you will be taught it 50 times. How many times do we have to go over white blood cells, seriously.

Then there was other random things that showed up on seemingly every exam from nearly every class and I only later on in 2nd year classes did having those memorized really help me. Like, T/F: protein in the CSF should be low. That was something that I had started off with just memorizing, but then later I found out why thats important.

Parasitology however...I just have so little empathy for this class right now. It feels like trying to learn global geography and the significance of various countries simply by memorizing all the names of the countries in the world over, and over again. Then the exam question is like: Compare the Textile industries of Burma and Romania and how religious minorities ages 18-24 in each country might be affected by that.

Except its with teeny tiny worms.
 
Rereading my post I realize I was unclear. We have (had it's over!) a seperate parasitology class and are now in micro doing bacteria and fungi and then viruses are next. I agree parasites are a pain--if only we could just use the common names life would be much better. No one calls whipworms trichuris vulgaris anyhow.
 
I kind of feel like the schools are stuck in convention and only slowly evolving to see that this way of learning may not be the most efficient.

What would you suggest?
 
Rereading my post I realize I was unclear. We have (had it's over!) a seperate parasitology class and are now in micro doing bacteria and fungi and then viruses are next. I agree parasites are a pain--if only we could just use the common names life would be much better. No one calls whipworms trichuris vulgaris anyhow.

You mean Trichuris vulpis? or S. vulgaris.. haha just had to dig ya. Believe it or not the techs have to learn all the scientific names too..total frustration until we got to Pharmacology and realized that the drug formulary list the parasites by the genus sp. under each antihelminthic...and suddenly...AHHHHH the lightbulb comes on.
Scarey to see now that the deworming bottles now read rounds, hooks, whips or tapes..makes me ponder...would I want a vet who didnt know what the names of the parasites were....Hummmmmm🙄
 
You mean Trichuris vulpis? or S. vulgaris.. haha just had to dig ya. Believe it or not the techs have to learn all the scientific names too..total frustration until we got to Pharmacology and realized that the drug formulary list the parasites by the genus sp. under each antihelminthic...and suddenly...AHHHHH the lightbulb comes on.
Scarey to see now that the deworming bottles now read rounds, hooks, whips or tapes..makes me ponder...would I want a vet who didnt know what the names of the parasites were....Hummmmmm🙄
Oops--good catch! That's what I get for writing posts when I am brain dead! Its nice to know that this info will be useful soon in pharmacology see if they would tell us that it wouldn't be so irritating.
 
I agree, I guess this is why some programs are using case-based teaching to integrate those principles in a way that students can see the "relationship" picture. What is that type of curriculum called again-I cant remember? But I heard that has its own problems...of course I have no personal frame of reference, but Im worried about how I will do in VS, bc I learn best by combining hands-on with instruction. For example...I can read how to do something 3-4 times and still not be able to perform it at 100%, but I can watch it demonstrated once and BAMM! I got it!

Im curious, for those who feel bombarded by all the extraneous BS, do you have student or faculty mentors available to give you advice?.. like for parasitology, I would tell a fellow student just concentrate on the most common ones, their lifecycles, mode of transmission, signs of infection,comparing those things that are the same for each species and then memorize those important differences like cats dont usually get whipworms and if you see whipworms in urine its capillaria...stuff like that. I would hope an upperclass buddy, mentor or somebody would be available to give you some heads up!
 
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What is that type of curriculum called again-I cant remember?

Are you thinking of problem-based-learning?

If so, I know individual schools sometimes have a small section of a class or just a minimum amount of exposure to this learning style while it is the predominant learning style for Western.
 
Are you thinking of problem-based-learning?

If so, I know individual schools sometimes have a small section of a class or just a minimum amount of exposure to this learning style while it is the predominant learning style for Western.

As well as at Cornell too, I think, if that's still the 'case'....
(no pun intended) 😀
 
Are you thinking of problem-based-learning?

If so, I know individual schools sometimes have a small section of a class or just a minimum amount of exposure to this learning style while it is the predominant learning style for Western.

We only get 1 week a semester at Melbourne.

Its a shame because I thought it was a really fun, and I learned heaps from the assignment we had to do afterwards.

The way my school did it meant that you were able to work at your own pace (some lecturers are sooo fast!) and that you could talk through things with other students until they made sense.
 
like for parasitology, I would tell a fellow student just concentrate on the most common ones, their lifecycles, mode of transmission, signs of infection,comparing those things that are the same for each species and then memorize those important differences like cats dont usually get whipworms and if you see whipworms in urine its capillaria...stuff like that. I would hope an upperclass buddy, mentor or somebody would be available to give you some heads up!

the problem with this approach is that you do need to know it all (or most) for boards. Even if you won't see it in practice, you won't get to practice without passing the boards! Even more maddening for classmates who have to learn all about liverflukes and other fun large animal bugs who have NO intention of ever getting near large animal practice!
 
Imagine how those of us who enjoy our pets but have no intention of touching small animals in any medical capacity post-graduation feel about learning all this small animal stuff... Kind of frustrating as you might imagine!!
 
Try not to get too frustrated. Clinical reasoning is a learned skill, not a set of species-specific facts. And a lot of the pathophysiology is similar across domestic species.

Finally, statistics show a large number of students will change their species focus during school or after graduation at some point in their career.
 
I've decided that if its stuff that you REALLY need to know, you will be taught it 50 times. How many times do we have to go over white blood cells, seriously.

Yep, the important stuff gets repeated in other classes. Stuff I saw last year in physiology and biochem popped up again this year in endocrine and pharmacology, and I'm sure it will show up again and again until we can all recite the locations of alpha and beta adrenergic receptors and the 6 diseases that cause hypercholesterolemia in our sleep. Most of the rest of it is just background information so we can intuitively understand it all. We might not ever actually need to know the Kreb's cycle in practice, but it's important that we learned it... somehow... or so I keep telling myself.

Besides--it builds character!
 
As well as at Cornell too, I think, if that's still the 'case'....
(no pun intended) 😀
Yep... we had 6 hours of tutor group each week for Block I (first 10 weeks of class) which consisted of anatomy, imaging, histo, and embryology... we didn't necessarily get taught during that time - we still had traditional lectures and labs - but it helped to reinforce the information we already learned and (sometimes) give a big confidence boost... it was great to be able to talk about it with other students... and I miss it... Block II isn't nearly as fun...
 
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