Any 38+ MCAT with NO interviews?

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Dr Peper

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Hi.

So I would like your opinions on what's going on here. First off, 38/3.4. MS in Biology. Standard ECs. Published research (2nd author).

This year I applied to 9 schools. Given my financial situation as a grad student, that was my absolute limit. Some upper-tier, some middle, and some near the bottom but which I have a special interest in. My primary was sent within the first week, and my secondaries were all sent within two weeks of receiving them.

To date, I have received 4 rejections and no response whatsoever from the other 5.

What is the usual deadline for interview invites?
Doesn't a 38 and an MS mean something in this absurd game?
IS THIS NORMAL?
 
Depends on which schools you applied to. Probably all upper-tier?
 
In the event that you have to reapply, you can use credit cards to pay for applications. I had to pay for my entire application cycle with a credit card because I had no other option. Obviously it's a bit of a gamble, but as long as you don't have any red flags on your app it's probably a bet worth making (for you in particular, obviously not for everyone).
 
For 38/3.4 going 0/9 seems with only a few mid and bottom tiers seems within the range of normal. I'd be surprised if you don't get an interview with an MS in bio. I've been told that with a lowish GPA the difference between a 33 and a 37 is negligible (either MCAT shows you are smart enough for med school, but GPA raises issues either way). Goodluck, with this stuff sometimes you just gotta spend the cash or apply for aid (I think you can send up to 14 apps for free with aid right?). There are still plenty of interviewees walking through my med school now.

edit to add: did you apply to out of state for your low tier or mid tier schools that focus on a particular demographic that you don't fit? That, a poor MS GPA, something weird written on your app, or just really bad luck is all I can think of.
 
Your GPA and possibly standard ECs might have been issues. Have you looked into FAP to help pay for the cost of applications?
 
Your GPA and possibly standard ECs might have been issues.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll grant his gpa is a little low, but 3.4 is still within acceptable limits, isnt it?

As for the "standard" ECs.... are you implying that everyone (even those with an MS and a 38) need EXCEPTIONAL ECs just to get an interview?

All I can say is wow.
 
^ 3.4 is borderline workable, but not with 9 schools. Also, I wonder aloud whether 3.4 applies to only certain categories like URMs, Ivy applicants, or low-tier MD schools combined with some extra wow factor.
 
That's tough man. Last cycle (2012-2013) I had no interviews either and I was applying with a 37. But I just chalked it up to being international.
 
Spinach Dip said:
Okay, I'll grant his gpa is a little low, but 3.4 is still within acceptable limits, isnt it?

As for the "standard" ECs.... are you implying that everyone (even those with an MS and a 38) need EXCEPTIONAL ECs just to get an interview?

All I can say is wow.
Click to expand...


Well, I see where you are coming from.

The average GPA is around 3.7-3.8 so I would say 3.4 is definitely on the low side. People do get in with 3.4 GPA but I doubt that having a MS in biology compensates for low undergraduate GPA. (It is not post-bacc or SMP.)

I said "possibly" standard ECs. I didn't state this was a definite reason for zero interview. Again, people do get in with cookie-cutter ECs. However, a high MCAT score and a MS in biology only get you so far. They are not necessarily wow factors. Considering the whole application holistically, it is possible that admission committees perceived OP as someone who doesn't bring enough to the table.
 
Dr Peper said:
Hi.

So I would like your opinions on what's going on here. First off, 38/3.4. MS in Biology. Standard ECs. Published research (2nd author).

This year I applied to 9 schools. Given my financial situation as a grad student, that was my absolute limit. Some upper-tier, some middle, and some near the bottom but which I have a special interest in. My primary was sent within the first week, and my secondaries were all sent within two weeks of receiving them.

To date, I have received 4 rejections and no response whatsoever from the other 5.

What is the usual deadline for interview invites?
Doesn't a 38 and an MS mean something in this absurd game?
IS THIS NORMAL?
Click to expand...
You didn't mention your undergrad BCPM GPA. If too low, you might have been autoscreened out. And a too-low grad GPA wouldn't help matters.

And, do you have the MS in hand or is it still pending? If you are still in the program, and didn't submit a commonly-asked-for LOR from your grad advisor assuring you are on track to graduate by summer 2014, there might have been concerns.
 
Dr Peper said:
Hi.

So I would like your opinions on what's going on here. First off, 38/3.4. MS in Biology. Standard ECs. Published research (2nd author).

This year I applied to 9 schools. Given my financial situation as a grad student, that was my absolute limit. Some upper-tier, some middle, and some near the bottom but which I have a special interest in. My primary was sent within the first week, and my secondaries were all sent within two weeks of receiving them.

To date, I have received 4 rejections and no response whatsoever from the other 5.

What is the usual deadline for interview invites?
Doesn't a 38 and an MS mean something in this absurd game?
IS THIS NORMAL?
Click to expand...
Should've applied to 20 or so schools if you were looking to go MD. Your stats are more geared toward lower to mid tier schools, so the higher tier ones really were just reaches that shouldn't even be counted toward your 9 total schools. Realistically, you likely applied to probably 5 or 6 schools to which you stood a decent chance of admission.

Think about it this way- most med schools have an average admit rate of 5%. Apply to 20 schools, and your chances are pretty damn good.
 
To get more helpful feedback it would be useful to know the schools to which you applied as well as more thorough description of your ECs and GPA. Are you confident your letters were strong? Did you have other people read your essays?
 
Knew someone with 3.9 and 36+ on the mcat and not get any interviews from 15 schools. Had no volunteering or shadowing to attribute to it.
 
Considering 0.1 GPA roughly equals 1 MCAT point according to the LizzyM scoring system, you basically are just as well off as someone with a 3.8 and a 34. Arbitrarily take off a point due to the disparity between the high MCAT and low GPA and you get a 3.8/33. Those stats are somewhat above average, but not enough to only apply to 9 schools.
 
Try for FAP and really don't limit yourself to 9 schools. It might cost 100 bucks or more per school, but when you think about it...you're going to be paying 300k for your medical education without any scholarships. It's just a drop in the bucket
 
Let's be serious with our discussion OP
I will list the possibilities.

1) International
2) GPA: If your overall and BCPM are under 3.5 without strong upward trend in upper level classes AND a strong masters performance.
3) Nine schools: Depending on state.
4) California: You're in a rough state. If you were in NY you would be good.
 
I cannot comment on application details but I think that touches on your issues.
 
There is no deadline, other than the end of the interview cycle in Mar/Apr. I don't want to appear blunt, but are you asking " My numbers are great? Why haven't they fallen over themselves to interview me?"

What is the usual deadline for interview invites?

Depends upon where you apply. It also depend upon the MS degree program. Was it SMP-like with coursework that mimics medical school (anatomy, physiology, micro, pharm etc)? or was it "DNA methods. Research Seminar. Survey of Molecular Biology Techniques?" The 3.4 might be a tad low for an MS. Based upon posts I've seen in these forums from successful applicants, the trends i high MCAT and high grad GPA.

There are schools that reward reinvention, but they tend to be among the state schools and the low tiers. Where did you apply? And when?

Also, what is your cGPA? It still might be too low to escape auto-rejects

Doesn't a 38 and an MS mean something in this absurd game?
IS THIS NORMAL?[/quote]

One doesn't have to win the Nobel Peace Prize, but one should at least do better than giving the appearence of checking boxes. Don't know what the OP did.

As for the "standard" ECs.... are you implying that everyone (even those with an MS and a 38) need EXCEPTIONAL ECs just to get an interview?

To OP, apply more broadly and strategically next cycle. Include some DO programs as well.
 
37/3.0 cummulative. Two October acceptances, waitlisted at one, and I cancelled four interviews because the locations weren't good for my family. I also didn't hear back from a good number (I applied to 15 total I believe).

That said, if you're applying with a low gpa I think you really need to bring something special to the table. "Standard ECs" and an MS in Biology might not be what it takes.

So really the question still stands, what are you bringing to the table besides that 38?
 
Atticum said:
37/3.0 cummulative. Two October acceptances, waitlisted at one, and I cancelled four interviews because the locations weren't good for my family. I also didn't hear back from a good number (I applied to 15 total I believe).
Click to expand...

Now I'm confused. A 3.0 would generally get a "you're screwed" reaction from this forum, yet you have been accepted multiple places... Congrats, and excuse me if I compare this whole process to shooting craps.

@OP: Here's a couple more things you may want to consider:
-Check the average gpa/mcat of the schools you are thinking of applying to. Some weight gpa > mcat or vice versa.
-Your personal statement. I know it seems like the least important part of your app, but some schools actually read it.
-Shadow more. It doesn't matter how many hours you have, more will only look better.
 
I applied with a cGPA 3.4 and a 36 this cycle. I've had 3 interviews from 30+ secondaries completed, you can see my MDApps for more details.
 
I agree with the others that you applied to too few schools. You should apply to 20+ schools.
 
Niemi said:
The whole apply to 20+ schools advice just makes me Saddy McSadface. Why is that considered good practice?, I will never understand... but on the other hand, I think 9 schools is a bit low... *shrug*
Click to expand...

The odds of you being rejected to every school you apply to would be (probability rejection school 1) x (probability rejection school 2) x ... (probability rejection to school X)! , where X is the total number of schools. Let's assume you have average everything for every school you apply to and each has an acceptance rate of 4% (this is a flawed assumption I know, but it illustrates the power of numbers). Your odds of rejection would be 96% at each school and your odds of rejection everywhere would be:

9 schools: (0.96)^9 = 69.26%
15 schools: (0.96)^15 = 54.21%
20 schools: (0.96)^20 = 44.20%
30 schools: (0.96)^30 = 29.39%

Now I realize that this is oversimplified (and it assumes the process is random); however, despite the limitations, it demonstrates nicely how quickly the odds of being rejected everywhere decrease with applying to additional schools. If you selectively target the schools you apply to, obviously the odds of universal rejection should be lower. If your stats are higher than the school's average, then again, that alters the math (obviously), etc.

For a MD program, I would apply to a minimum of 15 schools and would aim for 20 or so. There is also a tradeoff in the quality of secondary applications if you apply to too many programs.
 
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Did you apply late? I was in a similar situation with a 3.7/37 and in the middle of leaving a graduate program. I applied late, so I definitely handicapped myself, but I was able to get some interviews in March/April (and a DO interview in January). Just have some patience.

That said, I did spend all of 2011 and 2012 shoring up my application in order to apply for admission in 2013. Luckily I was accepted to an MD school in mid June (off the waitlist), but you never take anything for granted unless you've been accepted or have a high probability of being accepted (eg >4 interviews in Oct-Dec).
 
I applied with a 3.5/35 this cycle and have gotten 8 interviews (6 MD, 2 DO). I got accepted at one, waitlisted at 4 and waiting on another. I withdrew from the DO interviews. You can check out my mdapps with the link on the left. My ECs were fairly standard other than my teaching experience. I did write a nice personal statement, which received very positive comments from a couple interviewers, and I'm assuming my LORs were strong. The only potential red flags was an F in a foreign language course, a W in some gen ed course sophomore year, and a couple Cs. I easily made up for the F by becoming fluent (at least according to the JLPT) a couple years later. My post-bacc GPA was 3.7. I also, of course, applied to over 20 schools. It put quite a financial strain on me, but I got an acceptance (and fortunately got one early). I can't imagine having to pour money into this process all over again next year. I think the biggest thing holding you back is the small number of schools you're applying to.
 
Putting aside the possibility that you may still interview and become accepted in this cycle (and you may):

1) Don't reapply next year
2) During next year, do things that merit an incredible LOR
3) Get incredible LORs
4) Rewrite your PS
5) Reapply to 20 schools using whatever means necessary
6) Matriculate

With your current #'s, the MCAT/GPA grid shows 76.1% of acceptance (assuming non-URM). Don't worry about/focus on your numbers. Nail down the soft stuff, interview well, and you'll have a seat in the class of 2016.

Good luck.
 
Niemi said:
The whole apply to 20+ schools advice just makes me Saddy McSadface. Why is that considered good practice?, I will never understand... but on the other hand, I think 9 schools is a bit low... *shrug*
Click to expand...

What's confusing about it? If you want to get in somewhere in one cycle then you apply to as many as you can reasonably afford/would consider attending.
 
Niemi said:
The whole apply to 20+ schools advice just makes me Saddy McSadface. Why is that considered good practice?, I will never understand... but on the other hand, I think 9 schools is a bit low... *shrug*
Click to expand...
It's just common sense. If each school has, say, a 5% admission rate, then if you apply to 20, you've got yourself 100%. This is, as was said above, obviously an oversimplification, but it's a pretty sound way to approach admissions. If you've got curve busting stats and great ECs you might prune it down to 10 or 15, but for someone who has either an average GPA or MCAT, 20 is the minimum number to shoot for for the maximum chance of getting in per dollar spent and hour invested. If you're really hurting, you could apply to 30 or so schools to get in, but beyond this, unless you're picking top notch places, you're really going to see diminishing returns, because if 30 places don't accept you, there is probably something on your app that is holding you back.
 
Niemi said:
In my opinion - applying to 20+ schools is not great advice - there are way better ways to improve your chances than spamming every school out there. I am an advocate of a more thoughtful and targeted approach to the application process. Especially in the the case of this person's thread: he didn't get a single II & if the stats he mentioned are true, I find it very unlikely that applying to 20+ schools would have made a difference... It is more likely he applied to too many reach schools or came off badly in his LORs or PS because w/ his stats his application was picked up and read by ADCOMs.
Click to expand...

It just depends on how risk averse you are. Things are unpredictable enough that even with the most carefully curated list of schools you could well not get in anywhere. If you have the money you certainly aren't hurting yourself by applying to more schools.
 
Let's say someone gets admitted to three schools after applying to 20. Wouldn't the results have been the same if they had applied to just those 3? How did those other 17 help. Could we have cut that 17 down to 9 and gotten the same results? Except for going on interviews that are nothing but practice for the big event, I can't see how more applications assures you to be admitted. Now, it is correct that we can't predict which 3 schools will be "the three" but I do believe that most people can narrow their list to 15 and get in somewhere if they target the list well (and woe to those who have stats so low that they can't find 15 schools in their target range -- frankly, applying up the chain is about as likely to pay off as a lottery ticket).
 
You are making the common error that the process is random. It's not.

Mad Jack said:
It's just common sense. If each school has, say, a 5% admission rate, then if you apply to 20, you've got yourself 100%. This is, as was said above, obviously an oversimplification, but it's a pretty sound way to approach admissions. If you've got curve busting stats and great ECs you might prune it down to 10 or 15, but for someone who has either an average GPA or MCAT, 20 is the minimum number to shoot for for the maximum chance of getting in per dollar spent and hour invested. If you're really hurting, you could apply to 30 or so schools to get in, but beyond this, unless you're picking top notch places, you're really going to see diminishing returns, because if 30 places don't accept you, there is probably something on your app that is holding you back.
Click to expand...
 
Wait until residency, applying to 75+ programs in competitive specialties is not abnormal.
 
Dr Peper said:
IS THIS NORMAL?
Click to expand...

The conversation has changed direction slightly, but just wanted to address the OP:
According to the infamous Table 24 (aka Table 25 for by-race breakdown): https://www.aamc.org/...table24.pdf
a 38/3.4 and 0 acceptances is normal for about 28% of applicants with those stats.

Of course there are various factors that play into why those 28% didn't make it into a single school, but no level of scores guarantees acceptance. Not even a 39-45/3.8-4.0. Figured I'd bring some actual numbers to the battle of made-up statistics people keep throwing around. Otherwise you'll hear similar advice from me as from @repititionition :

repititionition said:
Putting aside the possibility that you may still interview and become accepted in this cycle (and you may):

1) Don't reapply next year
2) During next year, do things that merit an incredible LOR
3) Get incredible LORs
4) Rewrite your PS
5) Reapply to 20 schools using whatever means necessary
6) Matriculate

With your current #'s, the MCAT/GPA grid shows 76.1% of acceptance (assuming non-URM). Don't worry about/focus on your numbers. Nail down the soft stuff, interview well, and you'll have a seat in the class of 2016 2019.

Good luck.
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
You are making the common error that the process is random. It's not.
Click to expand...

From the perspective of adcoms, the process is not random. But it might as well be random from the perspective of the applicant.
 
Mad Jack said:
It's just common sense. If each school has, say, a 5% admission rate, then if you apply to 20, you've got yourself 100%. This is, as was said above, obviously an oversimplification, but it's a pretty sound way to approach admissions. If you've got curve busting stats and great ECs you might prune it down to 10 or 15, but for someone who has either an average GPA or MCAT, 20 is the minimum number to shoot for for the maximum chance of getting in per dollar spent and hour invested. If you're really hurting, you could apply to 30 or so schools to get in, but beyond this, unless you're picking top notch places, you're really going to see diminishing returns, because if 30 places don't accept you, there is probably something on your app that is holding you back.
Click to expand...
Actually, that's not how the math works.
 
sniderwes said:
Actually, that's not how the math works.
Click to expand...
It was an obvious (albeit poorly crafted) oversimplification meant to illustrate that your chances of success increase with more applications. If a school accepts 80 of 4000 (2% will be accepted)students, your chance of being one of those 80 is slim. So you apply to the med school next door. They accept 100 people and receive 5000 apps (2% will be accepted). The two schools have largely similar applicant pools, such that 3000 of the applicants to each have applied to both. So you are now in a pool of 6000 total people competing for 180 seats (3% will be accepted). You just went from having to be better than 98 other guys to having to be better than 97 other guys to get the job. You've put yourself in a slightly more favorable position by applying to both schools. Applying more broadly helps your chances, but at a certain point you start to see diminishing returns- a lot of people seem to think that point is roughly 20 apps.

Each school that sees your app is another chance that your essay or ECs will do it for the adcom and be what they were looking for. Since you don't know any of the adcom members personally (probably) and thus do not know if you have what they are looking for, you send it to as many as you can in the hopes that it falls into the right hands.
 
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What you're describing in your last paragraph is essentially equivalent to rolling a die. Let's say we're rolling a six sided die, and that a roll of 6 will get us an interview/acceptance. We know that in rolling a six sided die, our chances of hitting 6 is roughly 17%. Applying to 20 medical schools is like rolling the die 20 times. Each roll is independent of the others and additional rolls do not increase the chances that any one roll will be 6. I'll leave it to you to calculate the odds of rolling at least one 6 out of 20 rolls.

The complication with med school apps is that when you apply it to the dice, it's like you become blind to the number of sides on each die. You wouldn't necessarily know how many sides each die has when you roll it (30 sided die = competitive school). This is where the non-random part of the admissions process manifests, because your app could be competitive or not for any particular school, and being selective with your school choices simply reduces (hopefully) the number of sides on the die.
 
Since it has been proven that the weather the day of the interview will affect your acceptance rate (fewer acceptances on rainy days, equivalent to a 2 or 3 point drop on the MCAT), applying to more schools and going to more interviews increases the chances of landing a favorable interview on a sunny day.

It would suck to be efficient and apply / interview at the minimum necessary schools and then get knocked out due to the randomness of inclement weather.
 
sazerac said:
Since it has been proven that the weather the day of the interview will affect your acceptance rate (fewer acceptances on rainy days, equivalent to a 2 or 3 point drop on the MCAT), applying to more schools and going to more interviews increases the chances of landing a favorable interview on a sunny day.

It would suck to be efficient and apply / interview at the minimum necessary schools and then get knocked out due to the randomness of inclement weather.
Click to expand...

If you're applying to the Rochester, Case, Buffalo, Albany, etc, you are basically SOL. Those places are overcast/rainy/snowy from October to April hahaha. Gotta hope for the early September interview.
 
sazerac said:
Since it has been proven that the weather the day of the interview will affect your acceptance rate (fewer acceptances on rainy days, equivalent to a 2 or 3 point drop on the MCAT), applying to more schools and going to more interviews increases the chances of landing a favorable interview on a sunny day.

It would suck to be efficient and apply / interview at the minimum necessary schools and then get knocked out due to the randomness of inclement weather.
Click to expand...

n=2, both interviews I attended this cycle resulted in waitlists. Both interviews were on days where it was POURING. Thanks for bringing this to my attention haha
 
sazerac said:
Since it has been proven that the weather the day of the interview will affect your acceptance rate (fewer acceptances on rainy days, equivalent to a 2 or 3 point drop on the MCAT), applying to more schools and going to more interviews increases the chances of landing a favorable interview on a sunny day.

It would suck to be efficient and apply / interview at the minimum necessary schools and then get knocked out due to the randomness of inclement weather.
Click to expand...

Im gonna go stand in a corner and cry now.....
 
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