Any Advice Appreciated

[RobbingReality]

---

Members do not see this ad.

This is the scenario, I took the MCAT in april and scored in the low twenties, hoorible I know. The thing is I do not know if I can improve much more than that. The material is not hard it is just I have never been a good standardized test taker. I have high GPA and I even teach Anatomy and Physiology lab at my university, the only student who has ever been given permission to do so I am told. I am a co-author in a just published psychology journal and I work in the hospital. If any one out there could give me some advice on changing my science based mine set or words of encouragement on how I am still on the right track to becoming a doctor, I would appreciate it greatly.😕

 

[TMarkus]

How serious are you about wanting to become a physician? Did you take a prep course yet for the MCAT? If not, drop the $1200 or whatever it is they charge now and take a Kaplan or Princeton Review prep course. Use all the materials they have, take practice tests, get your timing down and learn strategies for taking the exam. You can become a good standardized test taker. Practice, practice, practice. You will increase your score. Good luck.

 

[jhug]

throw yourself into the application cycle. If you can convince yourself that this year is your year-- go for it!!!! in my personal opinion, an average (or slightly below average) mcat is easier to compensate for with a high GPA......more so than a good mcat and poor grades. Again, this imo, some may disagree. I got in with an average mcat, super grades, and tons of extra's....like you--minus the teaching anatomy (which is sure to turn some heads)
you are fighting a slightly uphill battle with a score in the low 20's.....but weirder things have happened. Best of luck to you and keep any questions coming!!

ps- if you don't apply this year/don't get in, i totally agree with tmarkus!!! kaplan is a great resource.

 

[NewAgeDO]

There is definitely a minimum standard a school looks for when viewing future candidates. One such standard is the MCAT. The MCAT as we all know is a standardized test. It is also a predictor of how well and individual will perform on the national boards. If one does not do terribly well on the MCATs, not all is lost, as many schools do look at other factors. But if one does not fulfill the minimum requirement on the MCATs (for the schools I applied to back in 2000 it was a 24), then it would be unjust for the school to accept an applicant. Why you ask? Well, that individual may be given the chance to attend medical school, but based on statistics, the likely result of the individual's future would either be a) attrition due to poor academic grades or b) the inability to pass the first part of the national boards. So my advice to you is to try your best, study your hardest, and re-take the MCAT (if you did not fulfill the minimum requirement, but if you did then give it a shot). We'll take it one step at a time. For now, don't worry about not doing better. If it's already in your head that you can't improve, then you've already failed. Sometimes a little confidence is all that's needed to get you over that hump. Good luck.

 

[doctorperez]

Originally posted by NewAgeDO
The MCAT as we all know is a standardized test. It is also a predictor of how well and individual will perform on the national boards.

Could you substantiate that claim please?

But if one does not fulfill the minimum requirement on the MCATs (for the schools I applied to back in 2000 it was a 24), then it would be unjust for the school to accept an applicant. Why you ask? Well, that individual may be given the chance to attend medical school, but based on statistics, the likely result of the individual's future would either be a) attrition due to poor academic grades or b) the inability to pass the first part of the national boards.

I think you are expressing a somewhat philosophical opinion, since when is an individual predestined to your choice A) or B) simply because of a score they obtained on a standardized test? do you mean to say you believe we are just statistics without the will to change our future performance because of a test score?

Yes statistics may show there is a high probability of a given student to perform a certain way given that student's grades or test score, but does that really determine how good a student will do? or how good a doctor that student may be?

I am sure the same can be argued about high school grades, I graduated HS with a 1.98 GPA (No it is not a typo) and pretty low SAT. I graduated college summa cum laude, got a good mcat score, am attending the medschool of my choice and I assure you I will be on the 5% of the national boards when I take it. Why? because I am not a statistic.

 

[apgar7]

I wouldn't be so sure that you cannot improve your MCAT score. In my opinion, the MCAT, and most other standardized tests, is not as much a test of one's knowledge as it is a test of one's a)immediate short-term memory (for example in verbal) and b) ability to recognize subtle patterns and styles of questions. Granted it is difficult to improve one's immediate short-term memory, but with much effort one can improve the ability to recognize the style of the MCAT. What you really need to do is get your hands on as many practice tests as you can. Take as many practice tests as possible so that you train your mind to eventually improve on its ability to recognize the styles and patterns of the MCAT. Board review courses can explicitly teach you some of these tricks of recognition, but trust me, most of these tricks are subtle and not consciously realized by your mind. That is, you can end up improving on your test performance and yet not really know why you are improving except to say that you've taken a many of practice tests. I truly believe what they say: "repetition is the mother of all learning."

 

[NewAgeDO]

My fault for not backing up my claims.

I have talked with certain faculty members and other staff that looks at "numbers". I'm not saying that if one does poorly on the MCAT, one will not do well in med school...because it is possible to do well. But statistically speaking (ie. making correlations), one can PREDICT (not 100%, of course) how one will perform. And you may be that one person who is the exception.

At our school we have something called the Academic Progress Committee who talks to those individuals who may be in danger of failing out of medical school. A faculty member told me regarding those who failed out, and I quote: "Well, it's no surprise to us, based on their MCAT scores it was just a matter of time until it caught up to them." I can easily understand their frustration for letting these individuals go. But if the adcoms did a better job of screening out the MUCH weaker applicants in the first place, then the faculty wouldn't have such a high attrition rate due to poor academic performance.

Another faculty member told me he already knows who will not pass the COMLEX, based on MCATs, grades, and class ranking. He actually wanted to bet me on this because I did not believe him at first, but since he mentioned he had the proof to back up his statements for the past 10 years or so, I refused the bet (plus the fact that I didn't want to know who would have been on that list). And yes, 80% of the time he is correct. That is a pretty high percentage. The remaining 20% are those who "beat the odds".

Running a medical school is a business...just check out Western University and its financial issues. Schools need to find a way to guarantee that a potential student will be able to complete all 4 years of medical school to get the most out of that student. If a school takes a student with subpar numbers, they are essentially taking a business chance too. It's unfortunate to hear, but it's reality. So where do schools look...the MCAT. Does this mean that if one has a low MCAT score they won't be a great physician? Absolutely not! It's just there needs to a bare minimum. If statistics show that someone with low 20's have a 10% chance of getting through the first years of med school (this is just an example, so please don't flame me on this), then as a business, this student is NOT a good investment.

Why do you think DO schools (or at least COMP) have a much higher attrition rate than say, UCLA or Harvard Medical? Because DO schools take that chance to accept a few more students who fall under that bare minimum provided they have many other strengths. But no matter how strong an individual may be elsewhere, that student must still have the capability to become a COMPETENT, KNOWLEDGABLE individual.

 

[LovelyRita]

Dear Robbing,

If I knew what admissions committees based their decisions on, I'd be rich and wouldn't have to take out another student loan! 😉

I say go for it (apply) AND in the meantime take Kaplan to see if they can help you improve your score. It worked for me.

Good luck!
M.

 

[jhug]

i had an interesting conversation with a bro-in-law (pre-med) about the mcat and how it "prepares" us for medical school.
How much gen chem, ochem, and physics do we ever have to study in med school??? i understand that biochem will utilize some ochem (obvious) but really, how much do we need to know gen chem and physics to "prepare" us for the rigors of medical school. And if those are topics that we never discuss in med school, how can they come close to "predicting" how we will perform IN medical school? (sorry robbingreality for the tangent....i still think you have a good shot and should go for it)

 

[ussdfiant]

Originally posted by jhug
but really, how much do we need to know gen chem and physics to "prepare" us for the rigors of medical school.

Having just finished my first year I would say that a good grasp of physics (especially flow dynamics) is essential in Physiology (especially cardio and respiratory).

 

[EUROdocMOM]

It is going to totally depend on the school as to whether or not they will look at you. With all of your other stuff you just may have a chance. Hard to say.
I disagree with the stats, too. I had a marginal MCAT (just enough to get in) and I have done very well my first year of med school.
HOWEVER... it's not up to us, it's up to admission committees.
If you truly want to pursue becoming a doc, I'd apply to just a few schools (if you have the resources to do so) and see what happens. If you don't get in, definetly do the Kaplan or TONS of practice tests... that will up your score more than anything. It's true that we as students and physicians will be taking standardized tests for many years to come, so it is worth it to learn "test taking" skills.
If this year doesn't work out , just keep on trying. It WILL happen if you want it bad enough!!!!
Don't give up!
By the way I've heard there are a few schools out there that don't ask for MCATs especially if you're a published researcher! Also, some schools have pre-enrollment programs that don't even require you to take it. Worth looking into!
Good luck!

 

[kristing]

Ok - last year or a few years ago, SuzieQ had the same issue and retook the MCAT and to tell you the truth I don't know what her scores were the second time around but she got an acceptance at the school she wanted to go to. You may want to do a search to look at what everyone said to her.

I'm at AZCOM (class of 2005) and our class average MCAT was 25. That's AVERAGE. I know people above and people below (I know one person WAY below). I think the last 2 years have been more competitive, though, but a low 20s might not completely keep you out of the initial round of rejects.

I retook the MCAT because the first one had lapsed as far as time goes - and I increased my score 2 points and my written essay thing by 5 (although does anyone give a rat's ass about the essay?). The first time around I took Kaplan, and serioulsy, the only thing it helped me with was making me sit down and study. Their methods, I think, were not helpful. They like to teach you over and above what you will do and hit you with harder example questions then you will ever see. I guess this works for some people. I found it inneffectual. Others like the method, and I am not saying this to bag on Kaplan, I just want to let you know how it's taught so you can make an informed choice.

When I took the MCAT again, I just did my own studying; I sat down with the topics and went through them methodically with my old (yes I kept them) class notes and books. Then I bought a bunch of old MCATS (they sold them at the university bookstore) and practiced. I spent about the same time as I did with Kaplan but I liked this way better. If you are good at self study, it may make more sense to get a bunch of review books and the old tests. Or... Princeton review may be a better choice. I would look into both Kaplan and Princeton review before shelling out the cash. Be ready for the hard sell. They will both really try to sell them to you.

If your grades are stellar and you have good interview skills and all that other stuff that looks good, I would recommend applying this year to the schools you would like to go to (no more than 5). Over 5, and you're spending a lot of money (unless you have loads of cash in which case, apply to them all).

This is what you have to remember when you apply: They need to be sure that you will be teachable, that you will not drop out, that you will be able to get through all of the material. The MCAT supposedly is a way to tell if you can do all of that crap and is some sort of predictor of your ability to get through the curriculum. (There's debate about this, again, not trying to get into an argument here.) Since your MCAT scores aren't great, then emphasize everything else that is! They need to know that you will get through.

Good luck!
kristin

 

[Ca$h MaNi]

It's funny, because I was reading some threads in the Pre-Allopathic forum and they were having a discussion about how ANYONE who scores in the mid-t-low 20's on the MCAT will NEVER become a competent physician or good physician....and there were even a couple pre-allo's who said they dont need a physician who can relate to them but a robot-type...where u enter a diagnosis and they spit out a treatment(WOW...I said to myself....how are we letting THESE people slip in??!?!?) . It is very sad to see this kind of debate and I think there are arguments for either side of the "low MCAT/low GPA = good predictor in medical school = being an excellent physician" issue.

I have a few thoughts regarding the low GPA issue...what if there were extenuating circumstances that was the cause of the low GPA(family death, problems in the family, financial difficulty causing you to work many hours at a job(s), etc...)...that was definitely my case for the first two years of my undergraduate career(1.78 gpa)....but then I transferred closer to home and turned it around and graduated with a (3.75 gpa).

And ofcourse in regards to the low MCAT issue....there is always the case of having a bad day, being distracted, etc....but we also think about just not being a good standardized test-taker. I know plenty of people, who can get 4.0's in challenging college classes....but when it comes to standardized tests.....two words: TEST ANXIETY sets in...psychological factors are HUGE when it comes to a test that, according to the test-taker with the anxiety.."determines the rest of their lives"..as they are seeking to get into medical school...for a lot of people there is TONS of pressure. For me it was the fact that I had worked so hard and that I was not going to depend on a "back-up" to medicine....medicine was my dream and I stayed in the race and was determined to fight through my GPA and low MCAT(took it 3 times mind you thinking I had to score 30+ to compensate for my low overall GPA). I never did score 30+...but I got into both DO and MD schools( I wish I had only done DO, because I would rather learn more out of my medical education than less....getting more "bang" for my medical buck).

The point of my story is that people have different reasons for getting low stats...ofcourse some are the party-animals who suffered low grades but then overcame later years and might be more disciplined now or at least know how to handle studying and partying...and there are those who had "significant issues" that caused them to be unsuccessful in the academic environment but later overcame that and learned how to cope better....all in all...I think it makes us better physicians in the long run. Life experiences can not be replaced by just "high numbers", in my opinion. That's what I love about DO schools, is that they look at the entire package(life experiences plus numbers)...ofcourse we have to set the bench-mark and minimum somewhere and I think DO schools are doing a decent job at that. You could say it is more of a "risk" to be accepting those with lower numbers but at the same time not all of them were "party-animals" and are just gonna blow in and waste an investment made by a medical school(this can happen at any school not just DO schools). Well this thread is getting long..so I'll just go on to say...Good luck to the this year's applicants and if you have further questions you can PM/IM me or post here.

Here I come NSUCOM!!!

Mani

 

[kristing]

bravo Mani. That was well said.

 

[smedly2]

robbingR,

I think you should apply with your score. Take them in april if the application process isn't going well.
My first go at the mcat was in aug a few years back. I got a 24 and thought I would never get in so chose not to apply that year. Took them again in april, got a 27 and applied with that. During all of my interviews I was asked why I hadn't applied that year. One school told me that I would have gotten in with the 24. I wasted an entire year thinking I wasn't good enough.

 

[Areitman]

If you go to this website ( http://www.mdapplicants.com/ ), you can enter your G.P.A. and MCAT score and find out if any student had gotten in with those numbers. It doesn allopath and osteopath schools. I saw someone with a 43 and got rejected from schools... Best of luck!


-Aaron

 

[Areitman]

If you go to this website ( http://www.mdapplicants.com/ ), you can enter your G.P.A. and MCAT score and find out if any student had an interview or acceptance with those numbers. It does allopath and osteopath schools. I saw someone with a 43 and got rejected from schools... Best of luck!


-Aaron

 

[maysqrd]

I always like to hear people argue whether or not the MCAT is a good predictor for medical school. I enjoy it even more when people actually do research on the subject:

http://www.aoa-net.org/Publications/JAOA/fulltext/baker1.PAGES.pdf

the summary of the article:

"This study found a surprisingly low
relationship between preadmissions vari-ables
and COMLEX?USA Level 1 per-formance,
and supplemental analysis
showed little relationship between MCAT
scores and performance in the WVSOM
academic program."


I say if you have anything over a 20 on the MCAT, GO FOR IT!!