Any gay/lesbian pre-meds?

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sit down lucy

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Anyone else?

And what are all of your thoughts about being out during the application process? I can't decide if it's a good idea or not.

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sit down lucy said:
Anyone else?

And what are all of your thoughts about being out during the application process? I can't decide if it's a good idea or not.

I actually posted a similar question on the allo board, but I only got one response. You can check it out here (it's a long thread, and my question was a little off-topic): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=3287084#post3287084

Basically my thoughts re: being out in the application process boiled down to 1) the fact that I have a number of LGBT-related ECs/other activities that imply that I, personally, put the L in LGBT (though I suppose an extremely progressive, straight uber-ally could have had similar ECs on his/her app), and 2) the fact that I feel many of the experiences I've had as a queer person (and specifically a queer person of color) will make me a better doctor, particularly in terms of my motivation and ability to provide culturally competent, non-judgmental medical care.

For me, #1 was a no-brainer. These ECs were important to me and hopefully help demonstrate my committment to working with minority communities to the adcoms. Unfortunately, while I feel #2 might be the more powerful and/or relevant consideration, I found my personal experiences and growth to be much more difficult to communicate -- and more often than not I just didn't do it.

I actually have a lot to say about this but I'm having trouble articulating it all clearly right now. To summarize, though, if you out yourself in a way that is relevant to your application (i.e. your experiences add depth to the kind of physician you see yourself becoming), I think it can be a positive asset to your application. I hope that adcoms are comprised of a large enough swath of people that even if your app comes into the hands of a less-than-receptive person, the adcom as a whole will be able to balance that individual out (I could be wrong here, and it's a risk you take). Given a reasonably enlightened adcom, I think the only way outing yourself could end up being a bad idea is if you end up looking like you're trying to play a "diversity card" to your advantage.

Hope that helps. I'd love to hear what you think the pros/cons are...
 
i think there's a sizable population of us. as for being out, i don't know what you mean. it never comes up in conversation with any interviewers or interviewees, cuz i really haven't had a chance to be involved much in the gay community. if anyone asks, though, yea i'm out. no biggie.
 
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this question is asked every week; there are almost as many gays (at least openly) as there are straight people here...so search the forums to find all the threads about it....
 
Psycho Doctor said:
this question is asked every week; there are almost as many gays (at least openly) as there are straight people here...so search the forums to find all the threads about it....

Err, not really. I've been here since January, and I don't check the boards every minute, but this is the first time I've seen a thread started on this topic. And if we made a blind poll (straight members v. GLBT members), I'm reasonably sure you'd still find at least twice as many straight as non.

Not picking on ya - just sayin'.
 
Psycho Doctor said:
this question is asked every week; there are almost as many gays (at least openly) as there are straight people here...so search the forums to find all the threads about it....

only in a perfect world...
 
Mateodaspy said:
only in a perfect world...
Why would there be straight people in a perfect world? (HAHAHAHA.. said in gest, so please let the only flames be from the flamers)
 
Rafa said:
Err, not really. I've been here since January, and I don't check the boards every minute, but this is the first time I've seen a thread started on this topic. And if we made a blind poll (straight members v. GLBT members), I'm reasonably sure you'd still find at least twice as many straight as non.

Not picking on ya - just sayin'.

There was a poll here in Dec (or sometime thereabouts), I think Flop started it. About 2/3 identified themselves as "exclusively straight." So pretty good guess.
 
I did search before starting this (for "gay," "homosexual," and "lesbian") and pretty much came up with nothing. There are threads started almost daily about plenty of other topics, as well... just fyi.

That thread you mentioned (2010MD) is huge, but unfortunately it strayed not only from the topic but from questions about applications as well. I agree with you in that I think that whole process of figuring myself out/coming out/being openly gay has made me a strong and compassionate person. I want to make that strength a part of my application, because I feel like it makes me different than a lot of other applicants... so there's a pro. I think that I might be able to work it into my personal statement in an ok way. Another pro is that, yeah, it kind of is playing the "diversity card" for schools that care about it (although I have different issues about getting in because of something like that...).

The cons are pretty obvious. Coming out is (at least for me) scary no matter how many times I do it. I risk being stereotyped, I risk an adcom that doesn't represent a broad swath of humanity, I risk it coming across the wrong way... basically it's the risks of coming out in general, just with med school on the line.

So, I'm trying to weigh those two in my mind and decide which matters more... I hated being in the closet, and would fight tooth and nail to keep from going back there... but is it worth risking an acceptance? I don't know. I'd have to out myself in either the personal statement or essay because I don't have lots of "pink flag" EC's (a few of my friends and I did start a biweekly LGBTQA house party, but that's not going on my application). I also generally "pass."

It's also complicated by the fact that I'm a Massachusetts resident... and Tufts, at least, has a question on their secondary about why you would be especially drawn to Massachusetts. I have family there, but equal rights sounds pretty good to me too - so should I make that part of my application? It's a tough call, and I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of other applicants/med students.
 
Here's my thoughts, having been through the interview process... Not gay, though, but heard a few anecdotes about this and talked to a few student interviewers. So take it as you will.

The whole interviewing thing is about who you are, what your interests are, and what you hope to bring to the table when you matriculate at medical school. They look at grades, MCAT, extracurriculars, etc, etc. If the GLBT/social progress thing has been a big part of your college life, and is a large part of how you define yourself, then list those activities on your apps and write something intelligent about how they have enriched your life and your understanding of yourself and others. If asked, speak passionately in the interview (but not argumentatively and confrontationally) about the challenges facing the GLBT communities in this country and abroad. Adcoms also want to see the ability to maintain positive relationships with different kinds of people, so if it were me, I would slip in a few sentences about how I have close friends of all orientations/genders/races, etc, etc, and that you realize that there's a spectrum of open-mindedness out there... and that's okay.

Physicians have to provide the best care they can to every patient that walks in the door--and I think most adcoms want to see that their applicants will be able to do that. Even if the patient has a radically different political ideology. If you make them see you're capable of that, I think you're golden.

The perception of the GLBT community from a scientific/medical standpoint is changing; most medical professionals will have read the more current literature from organizations like the American Psychiatric Association that endorse gay marriage and other ideals, etc, etc. Yes, there is still a long way to go, but many physicians are humanists--and many are pretty progressive in their personal beliefs, even if they aren't activists.

I think if *you* are comfortable with your identity, honest, mature, genuine, and passionate--and this is true whether you're gay or not--the adcoms are going to want you.
 
rpkall said:
The perception of the GLBT community from a scientific/medical standpoint is changing; most medical professionals will have read the more current literature from organizations like the American Psychiatric Association that endorse gay marriage and other ideals, etc, etc. Yes, there is still a long way to go, but many physicians are humanists--and many are pretty progressive in their personal beliefs, even if they aren't activists.


I agree with you, but I'm not worried about being rejected explicitly because I'm a lesbian... from what I've seen here and elsewhere, it seems like admissions can be kind of random, so they don't necessarily need to find an actual reason to not accept me, they just need to not like me. And what people say in terms of the science they believe in doesn't neccessarily correspond with what they feel.

idk.. I want to believe that people, especially physicians, are humanists, but part of me feels kind of like that would be like believing that no one goes to med school for the money and/or power.
 
Dakota said:
There was a poll here in Dec (or sometime thereabouts), I think Flop started it. About 2/3 identified themselves as "exclusively straight." So pretty good guess.

damn.... 2/3? i guess it won't be that impossible to meet a guy in med school. hell, why not start now if there's that many on SDN?

"down to earth GAM ISO GWM btwn 20-35!"
Name: Kirexhana
Location: LA
Occpation: Student
Field: Health Professional
Interests: Food, Working Out, checking my email, checking my snail mail, checking SDN, Food

just kidding, i'm not THAT desperate. although i really think that the 1/3 non-straight number is a lil skewed. no a separate note, i wonder what it'd be like if med schools put out personal ads...

"intensive, rigorous med school seeking talented individuals"
must have a high gpa and/or high mcat. must be well endowed with large amounts of clinical experiences and research. publications preferred.
 
Concerning being "out" on your applications, I think it's most important to see if mentioning your sexual orientation fits in the context what you are trying to get across. I think honestly, most schools don't necessarily care if you are gay/lesbian, but are more interested in seeing how this may have affected your life, experiences, etc. I know personally, I was not open about being gay on my AMCAS application, but did mention it in about 50% of my secondaries. I found it to be most appropriate when answering questions pertaining to what type of perspective I could bring to their particular school. Good luck, and don't stress over it too much. I definitely was worried about it, but talked to my pre-med advisor about it, and she said she'd be surprised if it were an issue at any of the schools I applied to (I applied primarily to schools in the Northeast, Upper Midwest, and California).
 
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kirexhana said:
damn.... 2/3? i guess it won't be that impossible to meet a guy in med school. hell, why not start now if there's that many on SDN?

"down to earth GAM ISO GWM btwn 20-35!"
Name: Kirexhana
Location: LA
Occpation: Student
Field: Health Professional
Interests: Food, Working Out, checking my email, checking my snail mail, checking SDN, Food

just kidding, i'm not THAT desperate. although i really think that the 1/3 non-straight number is a lil skewed. no a separate note, i wonder what it'd be like if med schools put out personal ads...

"intensive, rigorous med school seeking talented individuals"
must have a high gpa and/or high mcat. must be well endowed with large amounts of clinical experiences and research. publications preferred.

Hi Kirexhana,
How did u get the Brokeback Mountain avatar?
Peace. :)
P.S. Awesome film!
 
kirexhana said:
damn.... 2/3? i guess it won't be that impossible to meet a guy in med school. hell, why not start now if there's that many on SDN?

"down to earth GAM ISO GWM btwn 20-35!"
Name: Kirexhana
Location: LA
Occpation: Student
Field: Health Professional
Interests: Food, Working Out, checking my email, checking my snail mail, checking SDN, Food

just kidding, i'm not THAT desperate. although i really think that the 1/3 non-straight number is a lil skewed. no a separate note, i wonder what it'd be like if med schools put out personal ads...

"intensive, rigorous med school seeking talented individuals"
must have a high gpa and/or high mcat. must be well endowed with large amounts of clinical experiences and research. publications preferred.

Kirexhana, I am a lamea$$. I totally assumed that when we had the discussion about your avatar that you were female. (Sound of Niki smacking her head with her hand, Homer Simpson style). Doh! Wow. My 'dar is off. But, then again, I haven't had a gf for a long time.
I dont identify as a lesbian, but I don't identify as straight (I hate the term, Bi, but I guess that works?). I have some LGBT stuff on my app too. I would talk about it if the interviewer brought it up- just like any other piece of volunteer work, because it's definitely part of my community work, and I have no reason to hide it. :D
 
midwesternguy said:
Concerning being "out" on your applications, I think it's most important to see if mentioning your sexual orientation fits in the context what you are trying to get across. I think honestly, most schools don't necessarily care if you are gay/lesbian, but are more interested in seeing how this may have affected your life, experiences, etc. I know personally, I was not open about being gay on my AMCAS application, but did mention it in about 50% of my secondaries. I found it to be most appropriate when answering questions pertaining to what type of perspective I could bring to their particular school. Good luck, and don't stress over it too much. I definitely was worried about it, but talked to my pre-med advisor about it, and she said she'd be surprised if it were an issue at any of the schools I applied to (I applied primarily to schools in the Northeast, Upper Midwest, and California).


Yeah, I talked to my pre-med advisor today, and he said basically the same thing. Now it's just a matter of deciding what exactly I want my personal statement to be about, and it's not like I had decided on that yet anyway.

I'll probably end up doing the same thing you did, and I'll be applying to mostly schools in the Northeast as well. Gah. Coming out stresses me out. :(
 
kirexhana said:
damn.... 2/3? i guess it won't be that impossible to meet a guy in med school. hell, why not start now if there's that many on SDN?

"down to earth GAM ISO GWM btwn 20-35!"
Name: Kirexhana
Location: LA
Occpation: Student
Field: Health Professional
Interests: Food, Working Out, checking my email, checking my snail mail, checking SDN, Food

just kidding, i'm not THAT desperate. although i really think that the 1/3 non-straight number is a lil skewed. no a separate note, i wonder what it'd be like if med schools put out personal ads...

"intensive, rigorous med school seeking talented individuals"
must have a high gpa and/or high mcat. must be well endowed with large amounts of clinical experiences and research. publications preferred.

I know at least 3 (*cute*) gay pre-meds, just out of my close group of about 10 friends. Then again, I'm a certified hag so you might want to take those numbers with a grain of salt . . . most of my friends are gay.

Good luck in your man-hunt :thumbup:
 
Hey guys. Thanks for starting this forum :)

I've just "completed" the application process...and in terms of my sexuality, its something I'm still figuring out (I'm a girl in case people get confused by the SN). I'm like somebody mentioned above - I know I'm not straight, but I wouldn't necessarily consider myself gay either. For a multitude of reasons, this is something I'm just beginning to feel out, in terms of letting people know, etc. It never came up in any of my interviews, etc. because I don't have any "LGBT" ECs, but I must say I'm worried about it affecting how i'm perceived in med school - not necessarily by students, but by the administration, etc - especially since I want to be a surgeon, and I know that male surgeons have this stereotype of strong women who want to be surgeons, and write them all off as "lesbians". Plus, I'm going to a state school, where these people will probably end up being my colleagues - and if for some reason I have a same sex relationship in med school, and decide to have a heterosexual one later on, that will still remain my "reputation", so to speak. I'm not sure if I'm asking for advice here, or just voicing my concerns, but I wanted to put these very real anxieties I'm having out there, just to see what you guys might have to say about them. Thanks for listening.
 
I highly doubt that an openly homosexual would ever be admitted to a great medical school,well maybe UCSF or Stanford :laugh:
 
kirexhana said:
damn.... 2/3? i guess it won't be that impossible to meet a guy in med school. hell, why not start now if there's that many on SDN?

There was another big chunk (15ish percent) that were "nearly exclusively straight," that seemed to encompass the "Well that one time in college I'd had a lot to drink and . . ." crowd.
 
jurmanium said:
I highly doubt that an openly homosexual would ever be admitted to a great medical school,well maybe UCSF or Stanford :laugh:


Lol... :laugh: :laugh:
 
jurmanium said:
I highly doubt that an openly homosexual would ever be admitted to a great medical school,well maybe UCSF or Stanford :laugh:

and you're of authority to speak? well then, i guess i better quit while i'm ahead with my oh, 13 interviews, 5 of which i submitted secondaries discussing my sexuality. but if JURMANIUM says so, i guess i must be wrong. :) jeez, didn't you learn the first time when your account was suspended?
 
jurmanium - I *know* great medical schools would never admit someone who couldn't assemble a grammatical sentence. Especially UCSF or Stanford.

Go away, we know from your other posts you're a troll.
 
jurmanium said:
I highly doubt that an openly homosexual would ever be admitted to a great medical school,well maybe UCSF or Stanford :laugh:


Some people just do not know how to be nice, let alone civil! :(
I will take the opportunity to apologize for this idiot on his behalf - SORRY GUYS! Nobody should have to put up with this!
 
It's not necessary to reveal your sexual orientation unless your argument or thought process hinges on your experience in a LGBT community. Just blurting out that you're gay in the absence of any justifiable context might work against you in that some people might be mislead to view it as "playing the diversity card". Also, if you decide to be open about your sexual orientation, be willing to discuss it with confidence. If you are going to feel shy and intimidated, you might as well keep it to yourself because it will come through as your weakness rather than strength.

For me, it'll be almost impossible not to discuss my experiences in the context of many of my Ec's, my worldview/ethos, reason for wanting to go into medicine/particular specialization. I highly doubt that the adcom can unanimously argue against my app. because of their own prejudice against the gays. I'm more concerned for the unexpected circumstances that might be presented during an interview. If someone says hurtful and hateful things, where do I draw the line between showing the maturity to calmy express myself under criticism, and compromising my integrity?

I posted a thread (the same thread I posted here) on www.studentdoctors.net about whether I should take a year off or not and I had listed some of my Ec's that contained every letter of the alphabet. One guy responded:


Third of all, stop hanging around with the homos.

:mad:
 
Hey guys,
I know this might sound kind of cheezy, but I wanted to say that I really respect you all for dealing so well with all the crap that's thrown at you from ignorant people. The idea of not being able to tell adcoms or just people in general everything that helps define who you are seems completely ridiculous, but I can sort of understand where you're coming from. I for one had a bad semester academically due to personal reasons and my reasoning for the "one-semester long" depression and anxiety I dealt with has help up okay so far. But I've had to completely hide the fact that it wasn't just a one-semester long battle, even if everything I've dealt with for years has played a significant role in who I am today, out of fear I'll be stereotyped (incorrectly). I know that's not even close to what you all deal with on an everyday basis, but I can see the parallels. Anyway, this post had no point other than to say that I have a ton of respect for you guys and that I wish you all the best. The world will come around...someday.
 
MrBurns10 said:
Hey guys,
I know this might sound kind of cheezy, but I wanted to say that I really respect you all for dealing so well with all the crap that's thrown at you from ignorant people.


AMEN!!!
 
surgeon2b said:
Hey guys. Thanks for starting this forum :)

I've just "completed" the application process...and in terms of my sexuality, its something I'm still figuring out (I'm a girl in case people get confused by the SN). I'm like somebody mentioned above - I know I'm not straight, but I wouldn't necessarily consider myself gay either. For a multitude of reasons, this is something I'm just beginning to feel out, in terms of letting people know, etc. It never came up in any of my interviews, etc. because I don't have any "LGBT" ECs, but I must say I'm worried about it affecting how i'm perceived in med school - not necessarily by students, but by the administration, etc - especially since I want to be a surgeon, and I know that male surgeons have this stereotype of strong women who want to be surgeons, and write them all off as "lesbians". Plus, I'm going to a state school, where these people will probably end up being my colleagues - and if for some reason I have a same sex relationship in med school, and decide to have a heterosexual one later on, that will still remain my "reputation", so to speak. I'm not sure if I'm asking for advice here, or just voicing my concerns, but I wanted to put these very real anxieties I'm having out there, just to see what you guys might have to say about them. Thanks for listening.


I totally understand what you're saying - and the unfortunate part is that's going to apply whenever/if you decide to come out. You just have to learn to say screw 'em. Males who think all strong women are lesbians have issues. I'm a lesbian, and hopefully someday I'll be a surgeon (I suppose proving the stereotype) but my plan is to just be better at it than everyone who writes me off as a homo. :)

Also, anyone who brings up your sexual orientation as part of your professional reputation won't look like a shining star either.
 
That's awesome - I wish I could have as much confidence as you about all this. I just know that, especially given today's political climate, people - and this includes future patients of mine - are still far from being completely tolerant and accepting of us. I just think it sucks that we have these social "hoops" to jump through, when what we decide to do in our bedrooms has absolutely nothing to do with how we practice medicine. I mean, if your doctor is straight but is a sadomasochist in his or her sex life, would that affect his or her competence as a doctor? I think not - and it's nobody's business. I know I'm (hopefully) preaching to the choir, but this is just something that will never make any sense to me.
 
surgeon2b said:
That's awesome - I wish I could have as much confidence as you about all this. I just know that, especially given today's political climate, people - and this includes future patients of mine - are still far from being completely tolerant and accepting of us. I just think it sucks that we have these social "hoops" to jump through, when what we decide to do in our bedrooms has absolutely nothing to do with how we practice medicine. I mean, if your doctor is straight but is a sadomasochist in his or her sex life, would that affect his or her competence as a doctor? I think not - and it's nobody's business. I know I'm (hopefully) preaching to the choir, but this is just something that will never make any sense to me.

yea, but i think that because of such ignorance in today's society, i feel that i have to strive to be an excellent physician to prove them wrong. i'll risk losing some less tolerant patients and set an example for those borderline-tolerant patients that a gay guy can be talented in something other than hairdressing or acting (n/o at all to those professions). change in the image of homosexuality isn't going to happen unless people help dissolve the current image.

now, of course i'm not going to be coming out to every one of my patients cuz it really doesn't have bearing. but if my patient happens to strike up a conversation about having a wife and kids, i think it's good to let them know otherwise about my view as long as it doesn't interfere with their healthcare. hiding my sexuality or denying it can be construed as professional, i suppose, but it's not very humane, is it?
 
kirexhana said:
yea, but i think that because of such ignorance in today's society, i feel that i have to strive to be an excellent physician to prove them wrong. i'll risk losing some less tolerant patients and set an example for those borderline-tolerant patients that a gay guy can be talented in something other than hairdressing or acting (n/o at all to those professions). change in the image of homosexuality isn't going to happen unless people help dissolve the current image.

now, of course i'm not going to be coming out to every one of my patients cuz it really doesn't have bearing. but if my patient happens to strike up a conversation about having a wife and kids, i think it's good to let them know otherwise about my view as long as it doesn't interfere with their healthcare. hiding my sexuality or denying it can be construed as professional, i suppose, but it's not very humane, is it?

Ditto, especially about changing viewpoints. One of the main reasons I make sure people know I'm gay (whe appropriate) is because I'm not a stereotypical lesbian. I don't plan on telling everyone/patients just for the hell of it, but if it comes up, I'm going to identify myself.

I mean, I feel the same way about being a lesbian as I do being a woman in a traditionally male-dominated field (science, engineering in particular). I've definitely had my fair share of buttheads who thought that I wasn't as smart/good/whatever at math or science as they were simply because I'm a female. The only solution in that case is to show them that they're absolutely 100% wrong, and you can do that by beating them at everything. It's the only foolproof way to make sure that they don't dismiss you as some stereotype. Also, nothing beats the satisfaction you feel when you destroy someone on an exam (and tell them so) after they've been telling you to go bake them cookies all semester. :D

It's also not so much confidence as it is resignation. It was pretty much killing me to be in the closet, and if this is part of being out, then there isn't much I can do about it.
 
wow this is a pretty powerful thread. it's made me think a lot in just a few seconds about what i've made uber-important in my life, and just how not important it is. thanks, guys, i think i really needed that wake-up call.

i'm wondering...i know this will sound really ignorant of me, and i'm sorry, but how much crap and unfairness do LGBTs still get, at least on the East and West coasts? from reading your responses, it seems like a lot...is that what makes coming out hard? i guess i just have a hard time imagining sexuality being any kind of hindering issue at all, coming from the gay capital of the world and all...

as for med school, i definitely think you should share it, if it's at all important to you (which it probably is)...i wrote about something pretty damn personal (a kinda emotional disease, actually, that really could affect my ability to be a good doctor) in response to that "tell us about a difficult situation in your life and how you overcame it" question...and it turned out okay! that's the one school i got into! :)

anyways, good luck to everyone, whatever you decide.
 
sorry double post
 
sit down lucy said:
Ditto, especially about changing viewpoints. One of the main reasons I make sure people know I'm gay (whe appropriate) is because I'm not a stereotypical lesbian. I don't plan on telling everyone/patients just for the hell of it, but if it comes up, I'm going to identify myself.

I mean, I feel the same way about being a lesbian as I do being a woman in a traditionally male-dominated field (science, engineering in particular). I've definitely had my fair share of buttheads who thought that I wasn't as smart/good/whatever at math or science as they were simply because I'm a female. The only solution in that case is to show them that they're absolutely 100% wrong, and you can do that by beating them at everything. It's the only foolproof way to make sure that they don't dismiss you as some stereotype. Also, nothing beats the satisfaction you feel when you destroy someone on an exam (and tell them so) after they've been telling you to go bake them cookies all semester. :D

It's also not so much confidence as it is resignation. It was pretty much killing me to be in the closet, and if this is part of being out, then there isn't much I can do about it.


I wrote my college application essay on my responsibility of coming out :).
Being one of the handful of colored queers on campus, increasing visibility of this particular group has been an important "mission" for me during my time here. Nonetheless, as I tell my many gay friends who more or less take up social/government policy as their main area of study and future pursuit in addressing the LGBT community, "I can't be a professional lesbian." :luck: When I'm in the lab 24/7, I inevitably become de-sexualized, thus I have to go out of my way to make time to keep up with the LGBT-specific political/social acitvities. Same deal in medical school?


Note on breaking stereotype: there are pros/cons... being hard to peg means AGAIN, going out of my way to actively disclose my sexuality AND reduced chance of being approached AND having to fend off a few abnoxious boys who understands "I only date girls." = "I only date girls, but you can come to bed with us."

My favorite quote from a friend in an attempt to defend me against a guy at a hockey game who thought I was merely "exploring with my sexuality like all college girls": "No, she's gay. She's as gay as Richard Simmons is." :laugh:
 
Thank you all for your thoughts and discussion of this personal and difficult topic. As a fourth year med student, I recently finished my residency interview rounds and had many of the same thoughts you all had during the process. In my experience, it never came up during any of my interviews. I am not involved in any LGBT social rights groups or medical societies, coming out was not the most difficult thing I have had to do in my life (I hate that question - the answer is always something very personal), and it otherwise would have just been an awkward topic to bring up. I hope, though, that anyone that had it come up during an interview did not have a negative experience.

As far as discussing one's sexuality with patients and on the wards, I would really just say "advance with caution." You are right in thinking that it will almost never come up. The only times I can think of where it did was 1) with little old ladies or women that want to set you up with their daughter/niece/granddaughter/friend, 2) in psychiatry with gay patients. In the first scenario, I would say go for it if you feel the patient would react well to it. However, we all know there are many social perceptions associated with being queer, and HIV/AIDS is something I promise you some patients will think about when you wake them up the next morning to draw their blood. In my experiences with gay psych patients, I absolutely never thought it was appropriate for me to discuss my sexuality, for numerous reasons.

Discussing one's sexuality on the wards is going to be just like discussing it in any other job - you will just be changing jobs every month or so, and each of those climates are completely different. Some medical stereotypes (just for fun - no one get pissed at me, please): family medicine and emergency medicine - no one will care, as long as you're cool; psych - if you come out, be prepared to talk about how it makes you feel with residents/attendings for an hour; ob/gyn - no one will listen to you if you happen to come out; peds - they'll probably just smile and hug you and be exceedingly nice; medicine - they won't have time to care. Now, surgery. There was absolutely no way in a million years I would have come out during surgery. Examples of my surgery experience: During rounds, some residents would refer to male patients that were in post-op pain as "f*gg*ts" in earshot of the patient. Patients that were actually gay were treated with much more disrespect than the other patients. The one surgical attending that was openly gay was mocked by the residents and other attendings. The clerkship director once told one of the residents to "be careful, he probably has AIDS," when discussing one of the clinic patients who was a ballet dancer. The environment were I did surgery was the worst experience of medical school. Some people may argue that I was a wimp for not speaking up and saying something during my rotation. On some level, I agree. I guess my personality is such that in such an openly hostile environment, I just wanted to get my work done and get out of there to go study. I can let a lot of things slide, and in surgery I was pushed almost to the breaking point a number of times.

That's enough surgery-bashing for me today. By the way, another little warning to all of the women reading this thread. I am very sorry to say this, and I hate that it happens, but you will occasionally be called "nurse" probably for the rest of your careers - by patients, by doctors from other services, by unsuspecting medical students, etc. It's sad, but I have seen it happen a million times.

Good luck to everyone with the rest of the application season and deciding where you want to go.
 
To the OP and whomever else...

I know something that has really helped me with the whole process was getting in contact with the GLBT/whatever associations at some of the schools I've visited. And, to be perfectly honest, I never really was into the whole gay students group thing in college (most of my friends are straight guys), but I found contacting other gay medical students helpful in assessing what the climate is at each individual school. The AMSA has a website that lists all of the LGBTPM (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender People in Medicine) organizations on their website:

http://www.amsa.org/advocacy/lgbtpm/ntldir.cfm

On a seperate note, I think you'll find yourself surprised at which schools are really proactive in making GLBT students very welcome and accepted during the application process. Duke, for instance, offers students the opportunity to spend the night with other GLBT students, and Michigan notes that coming out on your application can only help your chances at admissions. Anyway, good luck, and feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. =
 
pattayapus said:
wow this is a pretty powerful thread. it's made me think a lot in just a few seconds about what i've made uber-important in my life, and just how not important it is. thanks, guys, i think i really needed that wake-up call.

i'm wondering...i know this will sound really ignorant of me, and i'm sorry, but how much crap and unfairness do LGBTs still get, at least on the East and West coasts? from reading your responses, it seems like a lot...is that what makes coming out hard? i guess i just have a hard time imagining sexuality being any kind of hindering issue at all, coming from the gay capital of the world and all...

First of all, I want to thank everyone for the respectful and supportive responses, and for helping to keep this thread civil and on-topic.

Pattayapus, your question isn't an ignorant one at all, and I'm really glad you asked it. Because overt homophobia and discrimination are (thankfully) becoming less common and less socially acceptable in a lot of places, I think a lot of non-LGBT people have a hard time fully understanding why LGBT people still feel like they face so many challenges.

What makes coming out hard is that it's never over. Sure, there's THE coming out when you build up the courage to tell your family and friends, but there are a lot of subtle, heteronormative assumptions people make every day that force queer people to make coming-out decisions constantly. These assumptions are often so subtle that only people excluded by the assumption (i.e. LGBT people) will notice them. For example, as a lesbian who often "passes" as straight (not intentionally), I am regularly asked if I have a boyfriend. I am asked this by friends of my parents, by my hairdresser, by my doctor, by coworkers, by patients with whom I'm making small talk when volunteering in the ER, etc. For a straight female, this question is so normal and innocuous you probably just answer it and move on without a second thought, but for a queer female you have a choice: do I say "no, I don't have a boyfriend" and leave it at that, or do I come out and say "no, I have a girlfriend?" (and if you don't have a girlfriend, the question is even more complicated because you wonder whether you should say "no, I don't have a boyfriend but I wouldn't have one anyway because I'm gay..." which is always an awkward thing to say.) Each time I decide how to answer this totally innocuous question, I have to try to gauge how receptive I think the person will be and whether it's an appropriate situation in which to come out (to touch on another issue raised on this thread, I don't necessarily think it's appropriate to come out to patients in a clinical setting).

I realize this may not sound like the most awful thing in the world -- and it generally isn't. But it is a daily challenge LGBT people face, and it's difficult because you really never know how the person you come out to is going to react. In my experience I've never had anyone react in a way that's outright hostile. But there are still a lot of people who hear the word "gay" and immediately think about what you do in the bedroom. Because they have made this cognitive leap, they assume you are trying to flaunt your private sex life in public, and think you're being inappropriate -- or if in a professional setting, unprofessional. They may also think that because you're gay, your life must be so incomprehensibly different from theirs that you can't possibly share common concerns about family, relationships, finding a work/life balance, etc. I think the fear of psychologically alienating a colleague, supervisor, or patient by coming out is particularly anxiety-inducing in medicine, where collegiality and professionalism are so critical to your career.

The reason I'm so glad you asked this question is that it's critically important to have straight allies who will actively contribute to making medicine as open and queer-friendly as possible. It's exhausting for queer people to be the ones who call colleagues out when they make homophobic comments (like Plank mentioned in this post above) or heteronormative assumptions. It also has the potential to look self-serving. Personally, I don't want my future colleagues to think they shouldn't refer to patients using gay slurs because they might offend me, I want them to think they shouldn't do it because it's categorically not an acceptable thing to do. Having straight allies who are equally willing to work to dispel these attitudes will go a long way.
 
midwesternguy said:
On a seperate note, I think you'll find yourself surprised at which schools are really proactive in making GLBT students very welcome and accepted during the application process. Duke, for instance, offers students the opportunity to spend the night with other GLBT students, and Michigan notes that coming out on your application can only help your chances at admissions. Anyway, good luck, and feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. =

DAMNIT! REALLY? Maybe if it stuck it on my secondary, I wouldn't be on deferred decision, like I am now... poop.

and as for plank, i'm so sorry you had to go through that rotation, it must have been awful. that kind of situation is kind of ironic, don't you think? we spend a lot of time thinking about whether or not coming out is 'professional' and yet there are ignorant sob doctors who think gay-bashing is alright in a professional setting. that's so sad.
 
plank, your post makes me so sad, as somebody who has wanted to be a surgeon for so long. I mean, I realized a long time ago that it's a boy's club, but I would hate to think it is as bad as you described. I want to tell myself that that's one isolated place, but that's probably denial talking. This is why we need more women in surgery - I just get the impression that they would be a little more sensitive to those sorts of issues. I mean, calling your colleagues names is one thing, that's just childish and stupid - it is downright despicable to do that to a gay patient. Those people would be fired if I had a say. Which brings me to my point - while we may have all this unnecessary and ignorant crap to deal with, we owe to ourselves as we become doctors, residents and attending physicians to make sure we create an environment that is open and accepting of everybody. I know as I've shadowed physicians I always keep a mental tab of the ones I want to be like, but I especially note the ones I want to make sure I never resemble.
 
surgeon2b said:
plank, This is why we need more women in surgery

Of course- that's why I'm hoping to be one!! :thumbup:

People are giong to insensitive anywhere, Surgeon2b. Speaking from personal experience, I don't advertise my sexuality and I held a job for six years that did not afford me the luxury of being out, so all of the friends that I made had no idea who I really was until about a year and a half ago. But you know what they told me?

They said 'thank you'. They thanked me for changing thier views on gay people and the gay lifestyle. Also for showing them that we are not horned aliens or something, or that all of us don't wear banana slings in big parades ;) Besides, I'm a girl... can't wear a banana sling...

It's not your job to change people's minds, but you can educate. I have found that even the most hardcore homophobe is willing to listen and even have thier minds changed if you just take the time and be patient with them- they have been raised by a homophobic society that is not comfortable with sexuality.

Good luck to you- maybe we'll be doing surgery together someday! :)
 
Now, I do not want to be a surgeon... I scored the lowest on this on http://www.med-ed.virginia.edu/specialties/

but, I'd love to do something in oncology. I hate to say that I'm afraid to pursue gynecologic oncology, for the obvious reasons. any thoughts?

edit: I swear I'm not hijacking, and it totally pertains to the original thread regarding coming out in interviews/applications. I just wonder if anyone else is tackling this as early as med school interviews (as I have), but my real concern is matching. I felt like a horned pixie-haired alien at one of my more conservative school interviews while discussing my interest in women's health, (which is demonstrative of my own comfort level.) but still... I'd love to hear other people's experiences.
 
wistarrat said:
Now, I do not want to be a surgeon... I scored the lowest on this on http://www.med-ed.virginia.edu/specialties/

but, I'd love to do something in oncology. i hate to say that I'm afraid to pursue gynecologic oncology, for the obvious reasons. any thoughts?

Fun... I'm going to try this test right now...
 
Hm. I scored highly for neurosurgery, which is scary, but also high on thoracic, which is good because that's what I want to do. Hm...
 
kimmcauliffe said:
Hm. I scored highly for neurosurgery, which is scary, but also high on thoracic, which is good because that's what I want to do. Hm...

Good match for you!!!! I have med onc, aerospace medicine, and psych topping mine. (I didn't know aerospace was a field!) ok, definitely not hijacking this thread. nope not me.
 
wistarrat said:
Good match for you!!!! I have med onc, aerospace medicine, and psych topping mine. (I didn't know aerospace was a field!) ok, definitely not hijacking this thread. nope not me.

lol, free speech, you can take it wherever you want! ;)

PM me if you want to- I know a little of aerospace med from the Air Force.
 
2010MD said:
First of all, I want to thank everyone for the respectful and supportive responses, and for helping to keep this thread civil and on-topic.

Pattayapus, your question isn't an ignorant one at all, and I'm really glad you asked it. Because overt homophobia and discrimination are (thankfully) becoming less common and less socially acceptable in a lot of places, I think a lot of non-LGBT people have a hard time fully understanding why LGBT people still feel like they face so many challenges.

What makes coming out hard is that it's never over. Sure, there's THE coming out when you build up the courage to tell your family and friends, but there are a lot of subtle, heteronormative assumptions people make every day that force queer people to make coming-out decisions constantly. These assumptions are often so subtle that only people excluded by the assumption (i.e. LGBT people) will notice them. For example, as a lesbian who often "passes" as straight (not intentionally), I am regularly asked if I have a boyfriend. I am asked this by friends of my parents, by my hairdresser, by my doctor, by coworkers, by patients with whom I'm making small talk when volunteering in the ER, etc. For a straight female, this question is so normal and innocuous you probably just answer it and move on without a second thought, but for a queer female you have a choice: do I say "no, I don't have a boyfriend" and leave it at that, or do I come out and say "no, I have a girlfriend?" (and if you don't have a girlfriend, the question is even more complicated because you wonder whether you should say "no, I don't have a boyfriend but I wouldn't have one anyway because I'm gay..." which is always an awkward thing to say.) Each time I decide how to answer this totally innocuous question, I have to try to gauge how receptive I think the person will be and whether it's an appropriate situation in which to come out (to touch on another issue raised on this thread, I don't necessarily think it's appropriate to come out to patients in a clinical setting).

I realize this may not sound like the most awful thing in the world -- and it generally isn't. But it is a daily challenge LGBT people face, and it's difficult because you really never know how the person you come out to is going to react. In my experience I've never had anyone react in a way that's outright hostile. But there are still a lot of people who hear the word "gay" and immediately think about what you do in the bedroom. Because they have made this cognitive leap, they assume you are trying to flaunt your private sex life in public, and think you're being inappropriate -- or if in a professional setting, unprofessional. They may also think that because you're gay, your life must be so incomprehensibly different from theirs that you can't possibly share common concerns about family, relationships, finding a work/life balance, etc. I think the fear of psychologically alienating a colleague, supervisor, or patient by coming out is particularly anxiety-inducing in medicine, where collegiality and professionalism are so critical to your career.

The reason I'm so glad you asked this question is that it's critically important to have straight allies who will actively contribute to making medicine as open and queer-friendly as possible. It's exhausting for queer people to be the ones who call colleagues out when they make homophobic comments (like Plank mentioned in this post above) or heteronormative assumptions. It also has the potential to look self-serving. Personally, I don't want my future colleagues to think they shouldn't refer to patients using gay slurs because they might offend me, I want them to think they shouldn't do it because it's categorically not an acceptable thing to do. Having straight allies who are equally willing to work to dispel these attitudes will go a long way.

As a married woman, my relationship with my husband has made a huge impact on my life and my motivation to go to medical school. I cannot imagine not being able to discuss that part of my life with pride! Throughout most of this thread, it has been said that if your sexual orientation is relevant to your application, then it can/should be discussed, and although I may not be an expert, I completely agree!
It is so unfortunate that bringing up or talking about your love life is looked at as "flaunting what you do in the bedroom". I feel like this attitude is really big in the south (where I am from). My undergraduate school, Emory, was supposed to be "gay friendly" but the attitude was it was ok as long as you didn't talk about it. Does anyone feel like talking about their LGBT experiences at medical schools in the south is hard (this may be a stupid question)?
Anyway, it's awesome that this kind of open discussion is happening on SDN (usually threads deteriorate towards some sort of bashing of someone or something)! Good luck to all of you and I really admire your ability to withstand all the crap thrown at you.
 
Tallulah said:
Does anyone feel like talking about their LGBT experiences at medical schools in the south is hard (this may be a stupid question)?

It's hard everywhere. Even in the most liberal of settings, it's enough to make some people squirm uncomfortably. Not that some dude talking about how many different ways he bent his girl over last night doesn't make a few people run. ;)

[QUOTE}Anyway, it's awesome that this kind of open discussion is happening on SDN (usually threads deteriorate towards some sort of bashing of someone or something)! Good luck to all of you and I really admire your ability to withstand all the crap thrown at you.[/QUOTE]

It did deteriorate... on the med school forums. Sad! You'd think after stepping foot in the professional door, some people would be able to grow up a little...

Thank you for your kind words!
 
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