Any homosexuals in HPSP?

[Cartman80]

This might be a dumb question, and I might get attacked but I want some info. If you have a problem with gay men and women, please don't use this thread to express it.

My question is, are there any gay men or women around these forums who are in HPSP? I've been getting so much info lately about doing it. It seems like such a great opportunity and I really want to serve my country. I would be so proud to work as a physician in the military. But I hear all this horrible stuff about gays in the military. I understand the "don't ask don't tell" but I was wondering if anyone had any experience with it. The military seems so hostile toward homosexuals which is a shame. It really bothers me that people don't think I can control my "urges to jump other men in the shower" (I've never even considered it).

I have a feeling I know the answers to my questions. You can't be in the military if you don't want to lie about your sexuality. But I just thought I'd post anyway. I appreciate any comments from anyone.

Also, please PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

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[UseUrHeadFred]

From what I know, it is a very strict "Don't ask, Don't tell." Noone in the military should know your sexual preference. Noone in the military should ask you about your sexual preference.

If someone finds out that someone is a homosexual there are consequences. Thus it is not a true "non-discriminatory" environment in any way, shape or form.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Listen dude, I was in the military for over 12 years, as an officer and as an enlisted member. I served with 3 services, including the Army, the Navy, and the Marines. Trust me when I tell you that it is very rare for gay members to get flogged for being gay, and as a physician, you are seriously almost untouchable. I served with some incredible gay servicemen, and yes, some of them chose to live a pretend life at work but lived their real life at home. You will not be asked about your sexuality, and since the only real way to prove you are gay would be to watch you have sex, there is no way you are going to suffer for being gay in this day and age. With that said, if you are gay, you understand how the "free world" views gays, and by this I mean that not every person you meet is a supporter of your lifestyle. And like every job, there will always be people who talk about you. But you will get this in the civi world or the military world. And don't take this wrong, but as long as you are not "flaming" with your mannerisms, you are going to be fine. Just be lik everyone else and don't talk too much about your private life. People will ask if you are married, and you know how to answer this. Be as truthful as you can without coming out and saying you are gay, and people will get the message. But understand this, you can undoubtedly be a valuable gay servicemember physician. There are thousands of gay servicemembers and you never hear about anyone getting messed over for it.

 

[Idiopathic]

If someone finds out that someone is a homosexual there are consequences.

Believe this...it is a possibility. You probably need to worry most about this during training, when they will be trying to weed people out. Afterwards, its sort of a "dont throw it in our face" sort of thing, to the best of my understanding.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Believe this...it is a possibility. You probably need to worry most about this during training, when they will be trying to weed people out. Afterwards, its sort of a "dont throw it in our face" sort of thing, to the best of my understanding.

Don't kid yourself Idio, docs are worth way more than that. And docs are basically outside the military even when they are in it. What the hec are you talking about anyway in regard to weeding people out? There is no weeding out of physicians in the service dude. They are so happy to have someone make that committment that they would never "weed you out".

Docs are in essense, untouchable in the service.

 

[texdrake]

It really bothers me that people don't think I can control my "urges to jump other men in the shower" (I've never even considered it).

Also, please PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

Actually it has nothing to do with "urges" or at least very little. It has more to do with uniformity and comfort. Most barracks for recruits have open showers and toilets and men will occasionally walk around naked.

The military's mission for enlisted men is to break them down and rebuild them as one cohesive unit. This is exceedingly difficult for drill instructors to do addequately if recruits have fears/regrets/questions/concerns about the fellow recruits. The military looks for uniformity for ease of control.

I am not saying I support these reasons, but I do see their reasoning. It has little to do with some "homophobe" high in the chain of command as some might feel.

I have a good friend who is gay and we have discussed this at length several times, I doubt though it will change anytime soon. Consider how long it took the military to intigrate units based on race and gender. Those seperations were for the same reasons and integration had as much to do with the need for it as it did for the moral reasons unfortunately.

I would say this. It would be possible for you to persue a carreer but it may be difficult. I think you would have to factor the following three things.

1. Never mention it, not in the interview, not ever...otherwise they have grounds for dismissal.

2. Determine your outward expression. Are you like my friend (where most would never guess) or are you outwardly flamboyant? If you are the later, it isn't going to work.

3. Does you desire to serve you country, become a physician, and be a role model to the united states outweigh your concious decision to keep from others your real persona? This is a tough part for some, but remember it is a don't ask, don't tell. So they shouldn't be concerned anyways. Furthermore I think you will have considerably less resistance in the medical side of the military then you would if you were enlisted.

Good luck to you should you chose to come aboard.

 

[Whodathunkit]

Actually it has nothing to do with "urges" or at least very little. It has more to do with uniformity and comfort. Most barracks for recruits have open showers and toilets and men will occasionally walk around naked.

Am I the only one that finds this odd? For an organization to be so anti-gay...

What's so not gay about open showers and toilets? TOILETS!? What's wrong with partitions?

And why walk around naked? I wouldn't do that around my FRIENDS...let alone people I work with.

 

[Cartman80]

Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate hearing your points of view.

I am most likely not going to attempt a career in the military. I am not flamboyant at all. No one I have ever come out to has said they suspected it all along. Actually, for most it was a shock. But I don't want to have to lie about everything to everyone for four years

I can see the point of view that homophobia might disrupt unit cohesiveness. In fact, I think it can be well argued that openly gay servicemen might make others uneasy. But for me and so many others, being gay isn't a choice. It definitely isn't. I can't help what I am, and I just wish the government would stand up for us for once. I would love to serve my country as a physician. I think I could do such an awesome job of it too. I just wish the higher-ups in the military would say "to hell with it" and allow us to serve openly.

And if some idiots feel uncomfortable walking around naked in front of me...that's their problem.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Did you know that in ancient Greece, the army not only allowed homosexuality, it actually encouraged it? The belief was that soldiers would fight harder for each other, and demonstrate more loyalty for each other than a bunch of random straight guys thrown together would. The ancient Greeks at one point had the most powerful army on earth.

I'm not saying that I'm for open homosexuality in the military, but at least one great nation-state in history had immense military success, and it had a vastly different view on homosexuality. But we never learn from history anyway... lol.

 

[MoosePilot]

It would be pretty tough to hide your orientation for even 4 years. For instance, I'm going on a deployment to Germany for about 75 days. I'm going to spend almost every waking minute with my coworkers. If I were gay, the chance of me not revealing that in that amount of time is very, very low. You probably know better than I do. In my opinion, it wouldn't be worth hiding that part of myself. If the military endorsed homosexuality and I couldn't reveal I was hetero, I would probably fail within weeks.

PAC says docs are so valuable nobody would touch you. Maybe he has information I don't. In my service, line officers are ultimately in charge even of doctors. The Wing Commander is a pilot. Homosexuality is not accepted. If it was known, you'd be processed out of the service. The fact that you're a doctor wouldn't matter, because the military is very serious about not letting people break the rules, even if they're sometimes inconsistent about it.

Serve your country as an excellent civilian doctor. Currently I'd say the military is not the right track for you. Good luck.

 

[MoosePilot]

And if some idiots feel uncomfortable walking around naked in front of me...that's their problem.

You said very clearly you don't want this thread to turn into an expression of opinion about homosexuality. I would ask you to please reread your sentence above. When you're asking for tolerance, you shouldn't be intolerant. I would feel uncomfortable walking around naked in front of you. I'd feel uncomfortable getting a rectal or a testicular exam from you (which isn't voluntary, I can't refuse if you're my flight doctor). I don't believe I'm an idiot. Tolerance is a good thing and if you want it you should give it to others.

 

[Cartman80]

You said very clearly you don't want this thread to turn into an expression of opinion about homosexuality. I would ask you to please reread your sentence above. When you're asking for tolerance, you shouldn't be intolerant. I would feel uncomfortable walking around naked in front of you. I'd feel uncomfortable getting a rectal or a testicular exam from you (which isn't voluntary, I can't refuse if you're my flight doctor). I don't believe I'm an idiot. Tolerance is a good thing and if you want it you should give it to others.

Very true, tolerance is a good thing. But I wasn't asking for tolerance in my original post. I just wanted to get some responses without getting flamed. And I don't believe you can conclude that I am an intolerant person from that one line. I don't agree with you at all about the exam. I don't care how "hot" a guy is, there is no way I would find a rectal or testicular exam "arousing". But that's neither here nor there. Just because I think some people are idiots for how they feel doesn't mean I am intolerant of them. Intolerance is when you will not accept someone for whom he or she is (read: the military). I accept that there are opinions that I can't change. But I still think they are idiotic. I'm sorry you feel uncomfortable around homosexuals in a locker room or in a doctor's office. I don't think you are a bad person, or even intolerant. But I don't agree with your opinions or your feelings about gays.

Perhaps I shouldn't have called them idiots, but I do get angry about this. I have a right to. And the next time you ask a gay man or woman to just accept that certain people will never approve of him or her, or feel comfortable around them, please try to remember how hard it is for us. How would you like to be told that you will be discriminated against and denied certain priviliges because of something you had no control over?

OK, that's all.

 

[MoosePilot]

Very true, tolerance is a good thing. But I wasn't asking for tolerance in my original post. I just wanted to get some responses without getting flamed. And I don't believe you can conclude that I am an intolerant person from that one line. I don't agree with you at all about the exam. I don't care how "hot" a guy is, there is no way I would find a rectal or testicular exam "arousing". But that's neither here nor there. Just because I think some people are idiots for how they feel doesn't mean I am intolerant of them. Intolerance is when you will not accept someone for whom he or she is (read: the military). I accept that there are opinions that I can't change. But I still think they are idiotic. I'm sorry you feel uncomfortable around homosexuals in a locker room or in a doctor's office. I don't think you are a bad person, or even intolerant. But I don't agree with your opinions or your feelings about gays.

Perhaps I shouldn't have called them idiots, but I do get angry about this. I have a right to. And the next time you ask a gay man or woman to just accept that certain people will never approve of him or her, or feel comfortable around them, please try to remember how hard it is for us. How would you like to be told that you will be discriminated against and denied certain priviliges because of something you had no control over?

OK, that's all.

I want to keep your thread on topic, so I won't go much into this, but I find being called an idiot kind of intolerant. Maybe I'm misusing the word, because I guess you can tolerate idiots, most of us do every day. If I were to say a man who wants to have sex with another man is a deviant, would I be tolerant or intolerant?

I never thought you might find a rectal, testicular exam or me in the shower a "turn-on". Me being uncomfortable isn't about what you're actually thinking, because I can't know that unless you make the huge mistake of actually saying something or acting on it. My discomfort would be due to what I know about your orientation. The potential for unknown feelings and actions that are not needed in a military/involuntary setting.

All I'm trying to say is that the military atmosphere is not as open to homosexuals as the outside world. I say it's not welcoming at all, but that's my opinion. I think you'll be happier outside and I think you can serve your country just as well as a civilian.

Again, I wish you luck and don't mean to be hostile.

 

[dyk33]

why would you feel uncomfortable getting rectal exam by a gay doctor? would you feel uncomfortable getting a rectal exam by a female doctor? do women feel uncomfortable getting pelvic exams by male doctors?

 

[dyk33]

then again, some do. never mind.

 

[texdrake]

Am I the only one that finds this odd? For an organization to be so anti-gay...

What's so not gay about open showers and toilets? TOILETS!? What's wrong with partitions?

And why walk around naked? I wouldn't do that around my FRIENDS...let alone people I work with.

AMEN brother.

 

[Spang]

My random thoughts:

It's way too hard to be a straight person in the military, forget about the added "burden" of being homosexual. If I were you I would direct my patriotism elsewhere. If I recall you sign a piece of paper regarding the don't ask/don't tell policy similar to the one you sign regarding drug use policy. So you'd have to start out your career by lying. I doubt you want that.

I don't care much for rectal or testicular exams from either sex. Also I really don't care if the female doc thinks I'm hot while she's estimating the size of my prostate. I also don't really care if the male doc is thinking the same thing. Get it over with already.

I don't mind showering in front of other guys, gay or straight. I like to be alone with my thoughts on the ****ter though.

The military is conservative, by and large, and always will be. I think they've made great strides in race and gender equality, but still have a ways to go. I don't think any progress has been made in the area of sexual orientation, the Greeks aside, and doubt any real change will occur anytime soon.

I for one serve my country with pride, and I mean I serve the entire nation; black, white, gay, straight, rich, poor, etc. Not everyone is that way though.

Just because one person's orientation, politics, or religion makes another person "uncomfortable" doesn't make them a bigot. We all have some innate biases and some acquired levels of comfort based on our cumulative experiences. It's not any fairer to jump to judgement of "intolerant ignoramous" than it is to call someone "***" or any other derisive term. Frankly I for one don't care what a person's orientation is, but that doesn't mean their actions, whether they are gay or straight, might not make me "uncomfortable."

It's not going to be easy to homosexual in this country, Key West, SF and maybe the Vineyard aside, anytime soon. I'm sorry about that.

I applaud you for asking the right questions before making such a big decision. Feel free to bounce any other thoughts off the folks on this board. I for one will tell you what I think, if you ask!!

Uncle Spang

 

[MoosePilot]

why would you feel uncomfortable getting rectal exam by a gay doctor? would you feel uncomfortable getting a rectal exam by a female doctor? do women feel uncomfortable getting pelvic exams by male doctors?

I actually prefer those exams from females. Smaller hands and tend to be gentler with the nads IMHO.

I don't know why I would feel more uncomfortable with a openly homosexual flight surgeon's digit in my rectum. It's not necessarily a totally rational thing. Like Spang said, it's bad enough to start, but unlike him I think it can get worse.

 

[MustafaMond]

This is a great thread.

Cartman, I don't have military experience, but I would say to go ahead and serve.

It really sounds like homosexuality wouldn't be an issue as long as you didn't openly flame.

 

[denali]

Perhaps the OP should look into the NHSC, the VA, the nonuniformed positions in the PHS, DOD civilian contract positions, etc. as other ways to "serve [his] country as a physician".

FWIW,

 

[r90t]

Female Doctor=Smaller Finger (on average)

I have known a very small handful of gay military physicians. They don't broadcast their preference and they don't wave it in anyone's face. They keep their private life, well, private. I would suspect that their colleagues know their preferences and accept them as they are.

In a military ethics/law class, it was taught that you could be "gay" as long as you were not actively gay while on active duty. This was right after big Bill's Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy implementaion.

I would tell a gay med student to avoid the military. He is going to have to live a lie order to stay in. Too much emotional/physical strain. There is enough of that going on with our recent op tempo. Public Health is a great way to serve one's country.

 

[thenavysurgeon]

there are a number of gay and lesbian folks at my command...docs, RNs, PAs...we know who they are, and frankly, no one cares. the military will take just about anyone right now (MD, DO, whatever) and pay little attention to your personal life. Still can't smoke pot yet, however...

 

[JMC_MarineCorps]

Am I the only one that finds this odd? For an organization to be so anti-gay...

What's so not gay about open showers and toilets? TOILETS!? What's wrong with partitions?

And why walk around naked? I wouldn't do that around my FRIENDS...let alone people I work with.

Tell me about it...the head (bathroom) at Bridgeport (cold weather training facility in CA) not only had open toilets w/o partitions...but I could see the swinging d*ick of my fellow brethren as he squatted 2 feet opposite of me (not just side by side, but opposite as well) WTFO?

This was a little too gay for me and I am not even homophobic.


There was a Marine in my unit that was really under the gun for his preference...they were trying to kick him out, but this was an E-3 in a Marine Corps Infantry Unit and I am not sure why or how his preference was leaked.

I tend to agree that military docs are in a league of their own...by your very nature you are a little soft in that you are there to heal while everyone is there to kill or to directly support the killers on the front lines. If you are gay, it just means you might be a little softer, but no one will notice/care/speak out if you don't make an effort to increase awareness and tolerance

 

[Echinoidea]

The military can be an extremely conservative, intolerant, and just plain ignorant place to spend years of your life. Do yourself a favor and stay away. I spent 4 years in the Infantry, and I have absolutely no problem with homosexuals in the military, but I have seen viscious and even violent responses from my former peers towards those they suspected might be gay.

There was a kid a few years ago named PFC Barry Winchell(sp?) who was killed on Ft. Campbell as he slept, by two guys in his company. I was in the Army at the time, and the thought of that poor guy being beaten to death with a baseball bat for being gay still horrifies and disgusts me.

 

[Homunculus]

Which brings me to the next question: Are people tolerant of Jews in the military?

yes.

--your friendly neighborhood hope you aren't trolling caveman

 

[Spang]

yes.

--your friendly neighborhood hope you aren't trolling caveman

We know what to do about trolls, don't we Homunculus!

Ironically (well, it's not really irony, but people over use that word and few people know what it means anyway) so, ironically the flight surgeon in my first squadron, the one who got me interested in medicine in the first place and led me down a 7-year road to medical school admission, was a lesbian. She ended up getting out by, I think, claiming conscietious objector status, but I liked her a lot nonetheless.

Spang

 

[OH58D]

Like many on this forum, I also served 12+ years as an officer in the Army. Oddly enough, the female soldiers/officers who were "known" (not openly) to be gay seemed to do pretty well in the military. The males did not.... no, I don't have a journal/study to ref.... but after 12 years, even aviators can notice a trend!! None of the pilots (almost all male), enlisted or flight surgeons were gay (as far as I know).... but w/ rank, I got farther and farther away from the flight line and got to see other branches w/i the Army. I would agree that military physicians are a bit removed (really, they are far removed) from the "real" Army..... would being gay keep you from providing outstanding service as a military doc? No, not at all...... but is the military above holding it against you in other ways? No. you may receive a poor evalutaion (OER) which in turn may hinder your future promotions, crummy rez, crummy duty station, etc. No, these evaluation can't say they give you a poor rating 'cause you are gay.... but they can write subtle things that sound fine but are "red flag words" (that have nothing to do w/ your life style) that on promotion boards will lead to your file ending up in the non-select pile. Then again, you could serve as a very successful physician and retire as an O-6 w/ 20+ years..... but I do think it would be at times, a difficult way to live your life..... for while no one is allowed to ask you if you are a homosexual, you would live your life in a fish bowl. If you are stationed at Walter Reed.... not a big deal (a huge fish bowl). If you serve somewhere like, Korea (very small fish bowl).... everyone knows everything about everybody. Good luck.

 

[militarymd]

....but is the military above holding it against you in other ways? No. you may receive a poor evalutaion (OER) which in turn may hinder your future promotions, crummy rez, crummy duty station, etc. No, these evaluation can't say they give you a poor rating 'cause you are gay.... but they can write subtle things that sound fine but are "red flag words" (that have nothing to do w/ your life style) that on promotion boards will lead to your file ending up in the non-select pile.

Example of what I've been saying about how the military can apply "pressure" to get what they want from you without actually giving an order.

 

[MoosePilot]

Example of what I've been saying about how the military can apply "pressure" to get what they want from you without actually giving an order.

Oh, yeah. I have to be extremely careful when writing/editing OPRs (our officer performance reports) to avoid the words which are subtly damning. It's tough, because something that sounds perfectly strong might be a signal that someone isn't up for promotion. The Air Force is great at sounding like it loves you, while it secretly thinks you're barely average.

 

[WillowRose]

Boy, those military presentations can sound convincing sometimes, huh, Cartman? I almost got sucked in myself. Then I realized that I'm a fat, asthmatic, middle-aged mom. The military does NOT want me!

Seriously, though, some great options have mentioned here. The National Health Service Corps is a great way to get your school paid for (either on scholarship in loan repayment) while providing valuable care to people who desperately need it. And the bonus is that you don't have to pretend to be something you're not. Well...in some of those towns, you probably don't want to flaunt your sexuality, but still....

I keep coming back to the fact that the only reason the military is allowed to do on-campus interviews at law schools and to openly recruit at other professional schools is because of government extortion. Most law schools will not allow *any* employer that is known to discriminate to do an OCI. That meant no JAG interviews. Until Congress decreed that no interviews meant NO federal financial aid for anyone at the school--undergrad or grad. That's a pretty high price tag. And so here we are.....no matter where you go, the military is there, not telling you the whole story. Might be worth it to do your 4 yrs and then resign your commission as soon as you're discharged so there's no chance of being called up years down the road when we're off in the desert somewhere "liberating" someone else.