Any One else finding MCAT Rediculously hard And Impossible???

[Corpus Callosum]

I have never worked as hard in my life like this before, and never felt that stupid about myself, for me months are not breaking it, and I have 2 science bachelors, 1 science masters, aviation associate, I am just losing confidence in my school abilities, and I am a good student 4.0 graduate gpa, 3.5 undergraduate
sometimes I just feel you have to have a phd in every single area on the mcat to really bomb the test, to be honest sometimes even after reading the explanation of the question, I still would not understand, if fact I get more confused and the next time I answer things that I previously knew, wrong, I don't know, I am just so stunned at this test and what people do to do well????
I really do not believe in the logic and fairness of this test the least, and the first thing I am planning to do if I ever make it up there is to protest and change this stupid test, maybe get rid of it?
you guys with me on that?

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[morgenthau]

I don't understand how people do well on it either, especially after I get my scores back from a practise test.

But when I go over my tests, I see that all my mistakes were so stupid and just completely dumb mistakes on concepts I know well.....some people are just bad test-takers, especially on the MCAT, which is basically the mother of all tests. Anxiety + stress + panic = lower scores, at least for me.

I don't think it's a measure of intelligence at all.....more like just being able to get the style of the test, learn the concepts, and clear-headedness/stamina. But it sure would be awesome to know how people who get those 13's and 14's do it.

 

[SigurRos]

I would have to disagree with you O.P. I think that with very basic knowledge you can reason through most of the test. I have only taken the very basic sciences (i.e. 1 year bio, 1 year chem, 1 year orgo, 1 year physics, and stats) and found that most of the test can be deduced from the questions stems. It is definitely a hard test-- but everyone thinks it is, so you are not at a disadvantage. Remember, it's how you do compared to everyone else so you could get half the questions wrong and still score in the 80th percentile as in some of the Kaplan full lengths.

I'm a social science/ humanities major and I was able to score a 37R, I think you will be fine if you keep trying.

 

[innocentsin]

i know what you guys mean like verbal im stuggling...however i think physical sciences are doable same with bio but some of the passages are just as intense as verbal..... my mcat teacher for kaplan is a md phd who scored a 42 he was a triple major before med school.. man i felt like such an idiot in the class.

 

[NewKidin2block]

I feel like the score have something similar to +/- 4 points uncertainty. there's a huge different between a 38 and a 26, but I feel someone with 38 are just as likely to get a 35.

I have never worked as hard in my life like this before, and never felt that stupid about myself, for me months are not breaking it, and I have 2 science bachelors, 1 science masters, aviation associate, I am just losing confidence in my school abilities, and I am a good student 4.0 graduate gpa, 3.5 undergraduate
sometimes I just feel you have to have a phd in every single area on the mcat to really bomb the test, to be honest sometimes even after reading the explanation of the question, I still would not understand, if fact I get more confused and the next time I answer things that I previously knew, wrong, I don't know, I am just so stunned at this test and what people do to do well????
I really do not believe in the logic and fairness of this test the least, and the first thing I am planning to do if I ever make it up there is to protest and change this stupid test, maybe get rid of it?
you guys with me on that?

 

[medlover247]

You are not alone my friend. I haven't studied this hard for anything in my life, and I'm still struggling to get my scores up. Its very depressing and I think it depends a lot on your test taking abilities, which sucks for me...

 

[hferdjal]

Yea, I'm not a good "standarized test" taker too. I mean, you can count on me to get ATLEAST a 27-28 on the MCATs but I probably won't hit the 30's. I was the same way with the ACTs.

Right now I'm just hoping my medical schools see my 3.94 GPA in bcmb and clinical/research and see that I'm a very determined worker that will stick through medical school to the very end.

I mean, I think busting your ass for 4 straight years should mean SOMETHING ,just as long as you don't fail the MCATs.

Also, my med-school buddies tell me that the tests in medical school resemble college tests more than they do the MCAT anyway. Although I'm not dogging on you guys who are owning the MCAT. Scoring well on the MCAT shows that you have very good logical skills and can probably learn things faster. I'm not nearly as fast in understanding information at first glance, but if you give me a textbook and tell me to comprehend a concept, I can do it. It just takes me a bit more time heh, but I'll get there.

 

[Corpus Callosum]

I understand what you are saying, but I have verified with many sources that medical admission committees wieght more than 60% on the MCAT, WHICH IN MY OPINION IS PROPOSTRROUS AND INCOMPREHENSIBLE. Like you said, 4 years worth of hard work, projects, tests, and struggle (in my case 7 years college) and yet 1 EXAM on 1 SINGLE DAY gets to decide whether we are smart and deserve to go to graduate school. Logical reasoning here just does not add up and makes me sick in the stomach!!!!

Yea, I'm not a good "standarized test" taker too. I mean, you can count on me to get ATLEAST a 27-28 on the MCATs but I probably won't hit the 30's. I was the same way with the ACTs.

Right now I'm just hoping my medical schools see my 3.94 GPA in bcmb and clinical/research and see that I'm a very determined worker that will stick through medical school to the very end.

I mean, I think busting your ass for 4 straight years should mean SOMETHING ,just as long as you don't fail the MCATs.

Also, my med-school buddies tell me that the tests in medical school resemble college tests more than they do the MCAT anyway. Although I'm not dogging on you guys who are owning the MCAT. Scoring well on the MCAT shows that you have very good logical skills and can probably learn things faster. I'm not nearly as fast in understanding information at first glance, but if you give me a textbook and tell me to comprehend a concept, I can do it. It just takes me a bit more time heh, but I'll get there.

 

[drizzt3117]

I understand what you are saying, but I have verified with many sources that medical admission committees wieght more than 60% on the MCAT, WHICH IN MY OPINION IS PROPOSTRROUS AND INCOMPREHENSIBLE. Like you said, 4 years worth of hard work, projects, tests, and struggle (in my case 7 years college) and yet 1 EXAM on 1 SINGLE DAY gets to decide whether we are smart and deserve to go to graduate school. Logical reasoning here just does not add up and makes me sick in the stomach!!!!

Well the Step 1 is one day, and counts more towards residency placement than the MCAT does towards MS admissions.

 

[Ludacris]

I understand what you are saying, but I have verified with many sources that medical admission committees wieght more than 60% on the MCAT, WHICH IN MY OPINION IS PROPOSTRROUS AND INCOMPREHENSIBLE. Like you said, 4 years worth of hard work, projects, tests, and struggle (in my case 7 years college) and yet 1 EXAM on 1 SINGLE DAY gets to decide whether we are smart and deserve to go to graduate school. Logical reasoning here just does not add up and makes me sick in the stomach!!!!

You can say the same thing about any professional test... even the SAT.

I agree it's hard but you got to do what you got to do...

 

[BrainTeazer]

Ah yes!! I am in the same boat! Its rather annoying how after all the hard studying, the results still don't show up! I think the major factor in it being hard is that MCAT knows how to trick us well with questions, and after taking so many bio, chem, physics classes, we think more abt the choices than we normally should. At the end of the day we have to remember its still a standardized test.

Lot of times when I go over the test, I find out that when I read the question in the hurry, I missed out on the important info that couldve helped me in getting the answer right. So maybe staying calm through the test and answering the questions without deep thinking might be the way to go with it. Obviously if we know all the info upside down in our mind than moving fast through the questions should be fine. But then again, the problem is...theres so much freaking info to know!!

Thanks for making this thread. You know wat just hit me...maybe we should write an entry in journal after we go our practice test and see why we missed the questions lol...who knoz that might help the next time. lol just thot i throw it out there.

 

[gujuDoc]

I would have to disagree with you O.P. I think that with very basic knowledge you can reason through most of the test. I have only taken the very basic sciences (i.e. 1 year bio, 1 year chem, 1 year orgo, 1 year physics, and stats) and found that most of the test can be deduced from the questions stems. It is definitely a hard test-- but everyone thinks it is, so you are not at a disadvantage. Remember, it's how you do compared to everyone else so you could get half the questions wrong and still score in the 80th percentile as in some of the Kaplan full lengths.

I'm a social science/ humanities major and I was able to score a 37R, I think you will be fine if you keep trying.

I agree with the above post. I don't see what is so hard about getting a 9 or 10 on the sciences. The verbal is sometimes tough especially for those who are non native speakers and from countries where not an ounce of English is taught (i.e. many East Asian and Southeast Asian countries).

However, even my Viet roommate did well on the science sections of the MCAT this past time though her Verbal needs a great deal of improvement.

The science sections should be easily passable for anyone who studies and practices a lot if they really understood their sciences before. I always fail to understand those people who can't even pull an 8 on the PS or BS. I could see difficulty in VR because of the language issue and other issues, but the sciences??
I think those who can't seem to get past a certain point are people who are failing to recognize their mistakes and making the same mistakes repeatedly.

 

[gujuDoc]

Well the Step 1 is one day, and counts more towards residency placement than the MCAT does towards MS admissions.

Yes the thing is that standardized tests are not going to go away. There will be Step 1. Then step 2. Then step 3.

Not to mention board certification and recertifications after every few years.

It isn't like they magically disappear after the MCAT.

To the OP, my sincere advice is to review your practice tests and try to figure out what you are not getting. See if it is is content, timing and not being able to finish on time, anxiety causing stress leading to bad performance, etc.

Then work on improving those areas through many practice tests and the works.

 

[MedChic]

OP, while I agree that the MCAT is an annoying hurdle, I also think you have to really change your approach to do well.

I honestly don't think it's purpose is to test you on impossible problems, but rather to measure your ability to reason through these problems under a certain amount of time constraint without panic. Compare it to a difficult case: diagnosing a zebra (patient w/ rare disease) for example and then following through with treatment in a timely manner. You have a plethora of knowledge at your disposal but you're gonna have to reason your way to the right answer. If you're negative, panic, worry, and give up you just failed to help your patient.

Also, as Guju said this is only the first of many tests you'll be faced with so you need to get comfortable with them eventually.

You can do it, as cheesy as it sounds just be positive

 

[LadyLightning20]

I would have to disagree with you O.P. I think that with very basic knowledge you can reason through most of the test. I have only taken the very basic sciences (i.e. 1 year bio, 1 year chem, 1 year orgo, 1 year physics, and stats) and found that most of the test can be deduced from the questions stems. It is definitely a hard test-- but everyone thinks it is, so you are not at a disadvantage. Remember, it's how you do compared to everyone else so you could get half the questions wrong and still score in the 80th percentile as in some of the Kaplan full lengths.

I'm a social science/ humanities major and I was able to score a 37R, I think you will be fine if you keep trying.

I totally agree - doesn't mean I'm not scrambling trying to cram everything back into my head though. (my physics and gen chem were taken sophomore year of high school and I got Ap credit so I haven't looked at either since then...) *sigh*...eight more days...keep cramming.

by the way - I LOVE Sigur Ros's music!

 

[Corpus Callosum]

Okay, here is the deal, I am not having a problem with pulling 8 on the sciences, in fact I am doing 10 and 11's (Except the verbal reasoning where I am just sick and fed up from painting art, stone geology, femminism, chinese history zilion years ago..... my performance is still very poor after so much hard work, still doing 6, 7, 8 at the most) I might agree that the sciences are important to test your understanding as you become a physician, but the verbal reasoning for instance, what patient is going to benefit from geology and rocks, I am just not seeing any connection there, totally pointless.
as for the sciences, I am not disputing the principles themselves, to the contrary, I am a science person and believe in every aspect of it, but the approach to test those principles is what I have a problem with, very little time, so much information in the passage (90% which you don't need, never the full story anyways, but thats fine) nothing direct, as if they are intentionally trapping you, in my oppinion they want you to do bad. I just do not see the comparison and similarity between having 1 page passage, followed by 8 questions that you have to nail in 8 minutes or so, and treating a patient from a disease, where in the worst case sinario, you have days if not months, in addition that there are lots of hands assisting you on that you are not by yourself like the mcat. Now keep in mind, you have a very specific subspeciality in medicine then where you narrow and zoom in on 1 area and become extremely proficient in it, that I agree and possible. In the mcat case you have to be proficient in an overwhelming amount of fields and areas, to an extent that everytime you try to dig and nail down 1 aspect (out of 1000) you lose site of 999...
This is my problem with this test, thanks for all your comments.

I agree with the above post. I don't see what is so hard about getting a 9 or 10 on the sciences. The verbal is sometimes tough especially for those who are non native speakers and from countries where not an ounce of English is taught (i.e. many East Asian and Southeast Asian countries).

However, even my Viet roommate did well on the science sections of the MCAT this past time though her Verbal needs a great deal of improvement.

The science sections should be easily passable for anyone who studies and practices a lot if they really understood their sciences before. I always fail to understand those people who can't even pull an 8 on the PS or BS. I could see difficulty in VR because of the language issue and other issues, but the sciences??
I think those who can't seem to get past a certain point are people who are failing to recognize their mistakes and making the same mistakes repeatedly.

 

[axp107]

Okay, here is the deal, I am not having a problem with pulling 8 on the sciences, in fact I am doing 10 and 11's (Except the verbal reasoning where I am just sick and fed up from painting art, stone geology, femminism, chinese history zilion years ago..... my performance is still very poor after so much hard work, still doing 6, 7, 8 at the most) I might agree that the sciences are important to test your understanding as you become a physician, but the verbal reasoning for instance, what patient is going to benefit from geology and rocks, I am just not seeing any connection there, totally pointless.
as for the sciences, I am not disputing the principles themselves, to the contrary, I am a science person and believe in every aspect of it, but the approach to test those principles is what I have a problem with, very little time, so much information in the passage (90% which you don't need, never the full story anyways, but thats fine) nothing direct, as if they are intentionally trapping you, in my oppinion they want you to do bad. I just do not see the comparison and similarity between having 1 page passage, followed by 8 questions that you have to nail in 8 minutes or so, and treating a patient from a disease, where in the worst case sinario, you have days if not months, in addition that there are lots of hands assisting you on that you are not by yourself like the mcat. Now keep in mind, you have a very specific subspeciality in medicine then where you narrow and zoom in on 1 area and become extremely proficient in it, that I agree and possible. In the mcat case you have to be proficient in an overwhelming amount of fields and areas, to an extent that everytime you try to dig and nail down 1 aspect (out of 1000) you lose site of 999...
This is my problem with this test, thanks for all your comments.

Not true.. medicine is full of high-stress situations. Think about surgery.. you have to make decisions in a flash.

Regardless, no standardized test rewards pure memorization... if it did, we'd see a lot more people with higher scores. There has to be a way of separating those who purely memorize and those who can memorize and think critically. I think a doctor who is faced with an unfamiliar disease and can deduce things from it would benefit society more than a doctor who knows every possible disease in the world but can't do anything with newer information.

I personally think Verbal is crap.. but what can ya do about it... just do your best!

 

[crunchymilk]

corpus, is english your first language? Just wondering

anyway, verbal was the hardest part of my Mcat as well. It kept me from getting the elite 36+ score. That being said, I fully understand why it is there, even though at first I didn't. The point is being given access to a lot of information, and in a reasonable amount of time, picking out the important information and being able to apply it to a logical reasoning test. I now understand why it's there. It's nothing like the SAT where they are testing if you can read, it's more of a logical thought process. It's kind of like how O.Chem really isn't about the reactions or memorizations, it's really about being able to apply what you know to something you don't know.

 

[Corpus Callosum]

I just want to add one point. Testing basics is fundamental , but in my oppinion, and based on the tests I am practicing, kaplan, berkely, CBTs and others, the mcat goes much beyond basics. I do not believe that a general understanding of the basics will sail you through, it is too much in depth and intense with tricks and details. I am a flight instructor for 4 years, and a physiology instructor for 2 years, this is not how I test my students on basics, it is too cruel and unusual, at least that is my oppinion, but I do respect other people's oppinions too.
More on the subject..., let the war begin, just joking...

 

[Corpus Callosum]

Okay, I am doing my thesis project with an MD PHD plastic sergeon. you know what he tells me, surgery is a procedure, there is minimal art and creativity that goes in it (and so much of medicine today, we had a talk in the hospital a few day ago about this, it is becoming procedural than anything) I am talking about MD here not research and Phd, moreover my advisor tells me that the guy who did residency under him, would bring an anatomy book to the operating table to refer to where everything is, (I know hard to believe but true), I think a doctor who knows in one area and able to think it critically will be 100 more productive to his community than some1 who knows a whole lot, and trying to reason through all of it, it is just that our brain capabilities has not evolved to that extent as of yet,
maybe some day but not today, looking forward to it,
By the way my advisor tells me too that he does not believe in the merit of the mcat the least, and thinks its all about limiting the number of applicants to medical school, and MAKING MONEY (SOME1 {MAYBE A LOT MORE} HAS TO DRIVE A BENZ)
No english is not my first langauge, and I agree with you organic chemistry is testing the same objective and set of methods (and biology too,), so what is the need for a "compex void of reason" section on the mcat, extra garlic????

Not true.. medicine is full of high-stress situations. Think about surgery.. you have to make decisions in a flash.

Regardless, no standardized test rewards pure memorization... if it did, we'd see a lot more people with higher scores. There has to be a way of separating those who purely memorize and those who can memorize and think critically. I think a doctor who is faced with an unfamiliar disease and can deduce things from it would benefit society more than a doctor who knows every possible disease in the world but can't do anything with newer information.

I personally think Verbal is crap.. but what can ya do about it... just do your best!

 

[SigurRos]

I'd have to disagree with you all on the whole verbal is crap and irrelevant ideology. I think that verbal reasoning is very relevant. Out of the three sections, I think it most reveals a person's reasoning capabilities since you cannot really study any content for it beforehand. Also, lets not forget that a lot of a physician's job is making sense of totally new information and reasoning/making judgments based on said information. This is what verbal reasoning is testing. A physician without any verbal reasoning skills is an ineffective one indeed. I scored the lowest on my VR section (11), but I still believe it is an important gauge of a person's competency as a physician later on in life.

 

[littlealex]

i know what you guys mean like verbal im stuggling...however i think physical sciences are doable same with bio but some of the passages are just as intense as verbal..... my mcat teacher for kaplan is a md phd who scored a 42 he was a triple major before med school.. man i felt like such an idiot in the class.

Why is an Md/Phd making 18 bucks an hour?

To OP: The MCAT tests knowledge that are acquired through the 4 years. So while it is just ONE test, it is the cumulation of months of hard work. Verbal also falls in this category. Being a doctor is a life-time of learning, and the better your reading comprehension is, the faster and better you'll be able to learn. Verbal correlates well with the Step1 scores for that reason. Kids with high verbals tend to learn more in less time, and succeed in medical school.

I do agree that the MCAT doesn't seem to test how a physician will perform. It will help predict how a student does in medical school, and it'll probably predict that better then the undergraduate GPA since there are so many different schools with different calibers.

There are a lot of hoops to jump through, and the MCAT is just one of many. Work hard, do as well as you can and let your GPA carry you the rest of the way. Keep your eye on the prize.

 

[Corpus Callosum]

Sure you are right testing needs to assess person's understanding and learning for all those sciences however, you have been tested throughout those years, in fact intensly too, and you did fine (assuming u are applying to med school), the point of recalling and cramming all this information for 1 day test, and then being penalized for an unfortunate outcome, that could be the result of anything other than knowlege or intelligence (stress for instance and anxiety) is what I disagree with. give you an example to me its like your manager at work coming after 5 years of hard work and saying, quess what we will take you through a test, if you don't do exceptional, we will take all your pay that you made in the past 5 years away, additionally you might lose your job too, don't you think that is outrageous? you had worked hard and earned this pay, you don't need any1's approval anyfurther, or do we, I quess then we should have medical schools sign our bachelor degrees before being awarded,, infering from your logic don't you think?

Why is an Md/Phd making 18 bucks an hour?

To OP: The MCAT tests knowledge that are acquired through the 4 years. So while it is just ONE test, it is the cumulation of months of hard work. Verbal also falls in this category. Being a doctor is a life-time of learning, and the better your reading comprehension is, the faster and better you'll be able to learn. Verbal correlates well with the Step1 scores for that reason. Kids with high verbals tend to learn more in less time, and succeed in medical school.

I do agree that the MCAT doesn't seem to test how a physician will perform. It will help predict how a student does in medical school, and it'll probably predict that better then the undergraduate GPA since there are so many different schools with different calibers.

There are a lot of hoops to jump through, and the MCAT is just one of many. Work hard, do as well as you can and let your GPA carry you the rest of the way. Keep your eye on the prize.

 

[Corpus Callosum]

There is a very well known study that was done lately I think at harvard and NY Times had an article about it, that concluded the mcat does not predict how students do in medical school any better than 2%, the results were just devestating to the mcat people to an extent that they were trying to keep the research results from surfacing, now here is literature and true findings speaking, I thought we were science people and believed in numbers or not?

Why is an Md/Phd making 18 bucks an hour?

To OP: The MCAT tests knowledge that are acquired through the 4 years. So while it is just ONE test, it is the cumulation of months of hard work. Verbal also falls in this category. Being a doctor is a life-time of learning, and the better your reading comprehension is, the faster and better you'll be able to learn. Verbal correlates well with the Step1 scores for that reason. Kids with high verbals tend to learn more in less time, and succeed in medical school.

I do agree that the MCAT doesn't seem to test how a physician will perform. It will help predict how a student does in medical school, and it'll probably predict that better then the undergraduate GPA since there are so many different schools with different calibers.

There are a lot of hoops to jump through, and the MCAT is just one of many. Work hard, do as well as you can and let your GPA carry you the rest of the way. Keep your eye on the prize.

 

[estairella]

I just want to add one point. Testing basics is fundamental , but in my oppinion, and based on the tests I am practicing, kaplan, berkely, CBTs and others, the mcat goes much beyond basics. I do not believe that a general understanding of the basics will sail you through, it is too much in depth and intense with tricks and details. I am a flight instructor for 4 years, and a physiology instructor for 2 years, this is not how I test my students on basics, it is too cruel and unusual, at least that is my oppinion, but I do respect other people's oppinions too.
More on the subject..., let the war begin, just joking...

Of course a general understanding of the basics will not sail you through. That's like saying a general understanding of numbers, shapes and analogies will sail you through an IQ test.

What others have been trying to tell you is that in terms of pure content, the MCAT will only test basics (sure, they will obfuscate things here and there, but at the end of the day, it's still basics). But the MCAT, as a standardized test, cannot just test facts (that's why VR is there, for one thing!)

I agree that it's silly to base many years of education on one exam. My worst mark was in a biology lab course where I wrote the final paper and exam while experiencing a terrible flu (I got a stellar 60% on the paper but fortunately it wasn't worth too much of the course).

However it's really a logically meaningless argument since it could be used for any exam of any length. After all, why not just have a quiz a week in undergrad instead of final exams and midterms? Or better yet, just ask students questions in class after every lecture?

The answer is that it is not unreasonable for some people to retain information for more than an hour, a week, a couple of months or a couple of years. Having a single test is also reasonable if you are allowed to take at another time (which MCAT allows).

Edit: I'd totally like to see the reference of this recent article you mention. Yes, we are science people, which means we like cited sources (for example I can cite a source that says MCAT has a 0.5 correlation with USLME Step 1)

 

[Corpus Callosum]

You are saying that a 1DAY TEST predicts better than GPA and others how people will do in medical schools (in other words how good people are) more than 4 years of hard work stress, examinations, projects and strugle (in my case 7 YEARS), i am sorry but I find that extremely hard to believe and very unlikely, please just sit and think for a minute about what you are suggesting, your statement may in fact carry offense to some people who had struggled all those years to be where they are, and then you come and tell them they are not good enough for med school and won't do well if they don't perform on a test, THIS IS A HARSH JUDJMENT, no offense but this is my take on it.

Why is an Md/Phd making 18 bucks an hour?

To OP: The MCAT tests knowledge that are acquired through the 4 years. So while it is just ONE test, it is the cumulation of months of hard work. Verbal also falls in this category. Being a doctor is a life-time of learning, and the better your reading comprehension is, the faster and better you'll be able to learn. Verbal correlates well with the Step1 scores for that reason. Kids with high verbals tend to learn more in less time, and succeed in medical school.

I do agree that the MCAT doesn't seem to test how a physician will perform. It will help predict how a student does in medical school, and it'll probably predict that better then the undergraduate GPA since there are so many different schools with different calibers.

There are a lot of hoops to jump through, and the MCAT is just one of many. Work hard, do as well as you can and let your GPA carry you the rest of the way. Keep your eye on the prize.

 

[Corpus Callosum]

it has been a while since I read it. I will look it up and see if I can find the reference and journal, sure, maybe that will help shed some light and convince some people.

Of course a general understanding of the basics will not sail you through. That's like saying a general understanding of numbers, shapes and analogies will sail you through an IQ test.

What others have been trying to tell you is that in terms of pure content, the MCAT will only test basics (sure, they will obfuscate things here and there, but at the end of the day, it's still basics). But the MCAT, as a standardized test, cannot just test facts (that's why VR is there, for one thing!)

I agree that it's silly to base many years of education on one exam. My worst mark was in a biology lab course where I wrote the final paper and exam while experiencing a terrible flu (I got a stellar 60% on the paper but fortunately it wasn't worth too much of the course).

However it's really a logically meaningless argument since it could be used for any exam of any length. After all, why not just have a quiz a week in undergrad instead of final exams and midterms? Or better yet, just ask students questions in class after every lecture?

The answer is that it is not unreasonable for some people to retain information for more than an hour, a week, a couple of months or a couple of years. Having a single test is also reasonable if you are allowed to take at another time (which MCAT allows).

Edit: I'd totally like to see the reference of this recent article you mention. Yes, we are science people, which means we like cited sources (for example I can cite a source that says MCAT has a 0.5 correlation with USLME Step 1)

 

[cur]

but the verbal reasoning for instance, what patient is going to benefit from geology and rocks, I am just not seeing any connection there, totally pointless.

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't want a doctor who's able to easily evaluate and digest material they're not perfectly familiar and comfortable with.

I just do not see the comparison and similarity between having 1 page passage, followed by 8 questions that you have to nail in 8 minutes or so, and treating a patient from a disease, where in the worst case sinario, you have days if not months, in addition that there are lots of hands assisting you on that you are not by yourself like the mcat.

You have months to prepare for the MCAT, armed with a complete subject list. You have all the time in the world. The test itself is appropriately lengthy and can be tricky, but if you really know the material there are very few questions you can't answer and plenty of time to do it in.

4 years worth of hard work, projects, tests, and struggle (in my case 7 years college) and yet 1 EXAM on 1 SINGLE DAY gets to decide whether we are smart and deserve to go to graduate school. Logical reasoning here just does not add up and makes me sick in the stomach!!!!

One test on which you know exactly which subjects and topics will appear and have an unlimited window to prepare for, conditions which sound far more favorable than most medical situations

In the mcat case you have to be proficient in an overwhelming amount of fields and areas, to an extent that everytime you try to dig and nail down 1 aspect (out of 1000) you lose site of 999.

The MCAT covers a collection of basic science concepts, medicine covers an overwhelming array of fields. The admissions process, from my perspective, is an (imperfect) attempt to evaluate candidates on the basis of hard work (GPA) and scientific aptitude (MCAT) I'm sorry to hear that you're not enjoying the process, but no, I don't find the MCAT radically more difficult than any other step in the process. You're getting 10s and 11s on the sciences? If you can pull an 8 on VR you're inside the matriculated range, that's all you need if you want to let the rest of your application "do the talking" And with ~5 weeks left? You're doing fine, don't let the test get to you.

 

[littlealex]

you have been tested throughout those years, in fact intensly too, and you did fine (assuming u are applying to med school), the point of recalling and cramming all this information for 1 day test, and then being penalized for an unfortunate outcome, that could be the result of anything other than knowlege or intelligence (stress for instance and anxiety) is what I disagree with.

The problem here is that some form of standardized tests is needed given the number of undergraduate institutions. A 3.7 from a mediocre college is hardly the same thing as a 3.7 from a top 10 school. In fact, a student with a 3.5 from a top10 school is probably more competent then the first student just because of the level of competition he faced.

The MCAT helps even out this difference. A student who did all of his pre-reqs in a community college can get a 35 on the MCAT and show that despite where he took his pre-reqs, he knows the material extremely well. Another student in the same situation can end up with a 25 on the MCAT, partially reflecting his lack of basic knowledge.

You've mentioned earlier that you thought the sciences were very in depth. I don't think this is even remotely true. Sure, in every section there are 2-3 problems that just require knowledge that most people don't know. However, the rest of the 53 questions really are just testing the most basic concepts regarding the sciences. Get the ExamKracker books, and look at how thin each book is, and compare that to a typical chemistry textbook.

The MCAT really does not test you on a lot of things at all. You made it through 7 years of college with numerous different types of materials and final examinations to get to where you are. You can definitely kick the MCATs ass.

 

[littlealex]

You are saying that a 1DAY TEST predicts better than GPA and others how people will do in medical schools (in other words how good people are) more than 4 years of hard work stress, examinations, projects and strugle (in my case 7 YEARS), i am sorry but I find that extremely hard to believe and very unlikely, please just sit and think for a minute about what you are suggesting, your statement may in fact carry offense to some people who had struggled all those years to be where they are, and then you come and tell them they are not good enough for med school and won't do well if they don't perform on a test, THIS IS A HARSH JUDJMENT, no offense but this is my take on it.

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/research/bibliography/koeni008.htm


http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union/5092/valid.html


Read up a little on the MCAT, and you'll learn that while it is not a good predictor for the Step1 scores, it is a predictor. In fact, it predicts the board scores BETTER then GPA does. In fact, of all the predictors available, the MCAT verbal section is the best way we have right now of predicting if a student will excel in medical school.

Don't hate the player hate the game. I wish it isn't this way because I did not do well on verbal either, and I expect that I will have to work harder then my peers with 12+ verbal scores in medical school.

So YES, I'm suggesting that a 1 day test predicts better then your life-long GPA. However, I'm not saying that those who struggle on the MCAT are not good enough for medical school, or that they will not excel in medical school. I'm just saying that they will have to work a lot harder in medical school to match their peers.

Keep in mind that these are just statistics, and thus really rather meaningless. I personally hope to work very hard in medical school, do extremely well on Step 1 to add to the evidence that people with lower verbal scores can excel in medical school.

p.s. I didn't mean to pass a judgment on those who struggles with the MCAT. If you re-read my post, you'll see that all I said is 1) reading comprehension is important to excel in medical school, and 2) there are many road blocks to becoming a doctor, and the MCAT predicts who well you do in the subsequent road blocks (step1,2 ,3). This is not harsh judgment. This isn't a judgment at all.
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There is a very well known study that was done lately I think at harvard and NY Times had an article about it, that concluded the mcat does not predict how students do in medical school any better than 2%, the results were just devestating to the mcat people to an extent that they were trying to keep the research results from surfacing, now here is literature and true findings speaking, I thought we were science people and believed in numbers or not?

LOL I missed this post when I responded to your earlier posts. I actually laughed out loud when I read that. First time in months.

2%? I would carefully examine the methods of this study before I give it any weight. Now I'm actually interested in this study. I searched for it on NY Times archive but I couldn't find it. If it is a well conducted study, then I think it raises some very interesting questions.

 

[drizzt3117]

I think this is a topic where you're not going to get a lot of agreement. I think the MCAT does force you to draw from a huge pool of information into a fairly short (and now shorter) test in which you might be tested on 1% of all the information you've studied for this test. Sure, you might get unlucky and be tested on subjects that you aren't fully prepared for, and you might get lucky and get your dream MCAT and know everything on it like the back of your hand.

Guess what, that sounds like the Step 1 to me, except its less likely you'll know every topic on it like the MCAT since it has more questions.

There's going to be some people who are generally good at standardized tests and wonder what the big deal is, and some people who can't conquer the test format regardless of intelligence and amount of studying, and are going to complain about it. That's the nature of the MCAT and I doubt it will change regardless of how many review courses are in existence.

 

[Corpus Callosum]

You guys are tempting me to respond and write while I have to study for the mcat here, I am taking it in September. Very interesting arguments and I hope we keep it friendly, afterall this is just an educated debate, we are all college graduates. as for the article I read it about a month ago in newyork times but I do not remember the exact date. I am certain about the results however, and it made lots of noise since mcat officials were objecting and pulled some strings against its release I read (might be the reason why you can't find it) if I get the time I will try to look but this MCAT is really keeping me involved.
I have to say however, that I am stunned at people's reaction to this test, where you might think they would oppose it at times where most are in favor of it. Good opinions though keep it going

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/research/bibliography/koeni008.htm


http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union/5092/valid.html


Read up a little on the MCAT, and you'll learn that while it is not a good predictor for the Step1 scores, it is a predictor. In fact, it predicts the board scores BETTER then GPA does. In fact, of all the predictors available, the MCAT verbal section is the best way we have right now of predicting if a student will excel in medical school.

Don't hate the player hate the game. I wish it isn't this way because I did not do well on verbal either, and I expect that I will have to work harder then my peers with 12+ verbal scores in medical school.

So YES, I'm suggesting that a 1 day test predicts better then your life-long GPA. However, I'm not saying that those who struggle on the MCAT are not good enough for medical school, or that they will not excel in medical school. I'm just saying that they will have to work a lot harder in medical school to match their peers.

Keep in mind that these are just statistics, and thus really rather meaningless. I personally hope to work very hard in medical school, do extremely well on Step 1 to add to the evidence that people with lower verbal scores can excel in medical school.

p.s. I didn't mean to pass a judgment on those who struggles with the MCAT. If you re-read my post, you'll see that all I said is 1) reading comprehension is important to excel in medical school, and 2) there are many road blocks to becoming a doctor, and the MCAT predicts who well you do in the subsequent road blocks (step1,2 ,3). This is not harsh judgment. This isn't a judgment at all.
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LOL I missed this post when I responded to your earlier posts. I actually laughed out loud when I read that. First time in months.

2%? I would carefully examine the methods of this study before I give it any weight. Now I'm actually interested in this study. I searched for it on NY Times archive but I couldn't find it. If it is a well conducted study, then I think it raises some very interesting questions.

 

[Corpus Callosum]

I am glad I could make you laugh though, especially you say after months, I have been known to be a humerous person,

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/research/bibliography/koeni008.htm


http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union/5092/valid.html


Read up a little on the MCAT, and you'll learn that while it is not a good predictor for the Step1 scores, it is a predictor. In fact, it predicts the board scores BETTER then GPA does. In fact, of all the predictors available, the MCAT verbal section is the best way we have right now of predicting if a student will excel in medical school.

Don't hate the player hate the game. I wish it isn't this way because I did not do well on verbal either, and I expect that I will have to work harder then my peers with 12+ verbal scores in medical school.

So YES, I'm suggesting that a 1 day test predicts better then your life-long GPA. However, I'm not saying that those who struggle on the MCAT are not good enough for medical school, or that they will not excel in medical school. I'm just saying that they will have to work a lot harder in medical school to match their peers.

Keep in mind that these are just statistics, and thus really rather meaningless. I personally hope to work very hard in medical school, do extremely well on Step 1 to add to the evidence that people with lower verbal scores can excel in medical school.

p.s. I didn't mean to pass a judgment on those who struggles with the MCAT. If you re-read my post, you'll see that all I said is 1) reading comprehension is important to excel in medical school, and 2) there are many road blocks to becoming a doctor, and the MCAT predicts who well you do in the subsequent road blocks (step1,2 ,3). This is not harsh judgment. This isn't a judgment at all.
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LOL I missed this post when I responded to your earlier posts. I actually laughed out loud when I read that. First time in months.

2%? I would carefully examine the methods of this study before I give it any weight. Now I'm actually interested in this study. I searched for it on NY Times archive but I couldn't find it. If it is a well conducted study, then I think it raises some very interesting questions.

 

[atalkinghead]

Guess what, that sounds like the Step 1 to me, except its less likely you'll know every topic on it like the MCAT since it has more questions.

Exactly my thought! Whenever I start to get stressed out from studying for the MCAT, I think of how much harder it will be in medical school. In med. school, we will all probably miss studying for the MCAT!

However, some people are just gifted when it comes to retaining information. It is taking me a month to go over each section, and another 2-3 months of taking practice exams. I do this to help with feeling overwhelmed. The first 2 months of studying was overwhelming, but it gets a lot easier.

 

[gujuDoc]

Okay, here is the deal, I am not having a problem with pulling 8 on the sciences, in fact I am doing 10 and 11's (Except the verbal reasoning where I am just sick and fed up from painting art, stone geology, femminism, chinese history zilion years ago..... my performance is still very poor after so much hard work, still doing 6, 7, 8 at the most) I might agree that the sciences are important to test your understanding as you become a physician, but the verbal reasoning for instance, what patient is going to benefit from geology and rocks, I am just not seeing any connection there, totally pointless.
as for the sciences, I am not disputing the principles themselves, to the contrary, I am a science person and believe in every aspect of it, but the approach to test those principles is what I have a problem with, very little time, so much information in the passage (90% which you don't need, never the full story anyways, but thats fine) nothing direct, as if they are intentionally trapping you, in my oppinion they want you to do bad. I just do not see the comparison and similarity between having 1 page passage, followed by 8 questions that you have to nail in 8 minutes or so, and treating a patient from a disease, where in the worst case sinario, you have days if not months, in addition that there are lots of hands assisting you on that you are not by yourself like the mcat. Now keep in mind, you have a very specific subspeciality in medicine then where you narrow and zoom in on 1 area and become extremely proficient in it, that I agree and possible. In the mcat case you have to be proficient in an overwhelming amount of fields and areas, to an extent that everytime you try to dig and nail down 1 aspect (out of 1000) you lose site of 999...
This is my problem with this test, thanks for all your comments.

What you just described is the elements of critical/analytical thinking. They want you to use logic. It is a test of logic and critical thinking skills. What would be the sense in giving you every single piece of information. It isn't impossible and in the time you've wasted complaining I can assure you could get another few practice tests in and do what you need to do.

 

[gujuDoc]

OP:

You seriously need to stop sending so much time complaining. I swear if you spent half the time you've spent complaining on here to go out and practice your score will go up. If you are getting 10's and 11's in the sciences and can pull an 8 or so in Verbal, you'll be fine. Just concentrate on doing better because that's the important thing, not arguing about the test's validity ad nauseaum.

 

[littlealex]

You guys are tempting me to respond and write while I have to study for the mcat here, I am taking it in September. Very interesting arguments and I hope we keep it friendly, afterall this is just an educated debate, we are all college graduates. as for the article I read it about a month ago in newyork times but I do not remember the exact date. I am certain about the results however, and it made lots of noise since mcat officials were objecting and pulled some strings against its release I read (might be the reason why you can't find it) if I get the time I will try to look but this MCAT is really keeping me involved.
I have to say however, that I am stunned at people's reaction to this test, where you might think they would oppose it at times where most are in favor of it. Good opinions though keep it going

No, people on the forum aren't really Pro-MCAT. No one truly likes the MCAT, even those who had done well in it had to struggle and work to be where they are. However, we just recognize that it has some merits, and we HAVE to do it anyway, no matter what we think.

 

[drizzt3117]

No, people on the forum aren't really Pro-MCAT. No one truly likes the MCAT, even those who had done well in it had to struggle and work to be where they are. However, we just recognize that it has some merits, and we HAVE to do it anyway, no matter what we think.

Well, it could be worse, you could be pre-law, where your LSAT determines nearly 100% of what schools you're able to attend.

 

[littlealex]

Well, it could be worse, you could be pre-law, where your LSAT determines nearly 100% of what schools you're able to attend.

Actually I'm really good at standardized tests. All my life it has been my GPA dragging me down. That doesn't mean I don't prepare for the standardized tests though. I mean, it's hard work, but it is just one test that you have infinite time to prepare for.

 

[drizzt3117]

Actually I'm really good at standardized tests. All my life it has been my GPA dragging me down. That doesn't mean I don't prepare for the standardized tests though. I mean, it's hard work, but it is just one test that you have infinite time to prepare for.

Hehe, yeah I'm the same way. I probably could have spent more time preparing for the MCAT. All I did was do a full length every couple days in the summer prior to the August MCAT, but oh well.

 

[SigurRos]

ditto I did some basic content review and a practice full length every 2 or 3 days about 3 weeks before I sat for the test.

 

[DrReo]

Yes, because this test compares you to others. Maybe your 7 years were a cake walk at X college with a 4.0. And individual Y got murdered with a 3.2 and his institute is more rigorous.... The MCAT cuts out ambiguity of the GPA scale, I think

You are saying that a 1DAY TEST predicts better than GPA and others how people will do in medical schools (in other words how good people are) more than 4 years of hard work stress, examinations, projects and strugle (in my case 7 YEARS), i am sorry but I find that extremely hard to believe and very unlikely, please just sit and think for a minute about what you are suggesting, your statement may in fact carry offense to some people who had struggled all those years to be where they are, and then you come and tell them they are not good enough for med school and won't do well if they don't perform on a test, THIS IS A HARSH JUDJMENT, no offense but this is my take on it.

​

 

[Corpus Callosum]

That is very daring offensive rediculous step to call my 7 years or any1 else's years a cake walk. You don't even know me, or know my record. I would be very careful before making such comments and dragging peopl'e career and life through the mud.

Yes, because this test compares you to others. Maybe your 7 years were a cake walk at X college with a 4.0. And individual Y got murdered with a 3.2 and his institute is more rigorous.... The MCAT cuts out ambiguity of the GPA scale, I think

 

[Corpus Callosum]

Add 2 points, first community colleges do not offer bachelor degress and almost all MD applicants has a BS which means they have went to 1 college or another,
Second I think a 4.0 student (or humbly a good student the least) is hard working and achiever anywhere, and yes, they may not be 4.0 at yale versus X college, but maybe 3.5 and above, and I would imagine every 1 agrees that 3.5 at yale is as good or better than 4 somewhere, so things average out at the end. Ya schools might have varying standards, but commited students will always try anywhere, and good smart students are also smart anywhere, in fact I read in one study that students at top schools try much harder than being anywhere else, and the reaon other than being harder standards, was sincere commitment and and added challenge.

The problem here is that some form of standardized tests is needed given the number of undergraduate institutions. A 3.7 from a mediocre college is hardly the same thing as a 3.7 from a top 10 school. In fact, a student with a 3.5 from a top10 school is probably more competent then the first student just because of the level of competition he faced.

The MCAT helps even out this difference. A student who did all of his pre-reqs in a community college can get a 35 on the MCAT and show that despite where he took his pre-reqs, he knows the material extremely well. Another student in the same situation can end up with a 25 on the MCAT, partially reflecting his lack of basic knowledge.

You've mentioned earlier that you thought the sciences were very in depth. I don't think this is even remotely true. Sure, in every section there are 2-3 problems that just require knowledge that most people don't know. However, the rest of the 53 questions really are just testing the most basic concepts regarding the sciences. Get the ExamKracker books, and look at how thin each book is, and compare that to a typical chemistry textbook.

The MCAT really does not test you on a lot of things at all. You made it through 7 years of college with numerous different types of materials and final examinations to get to where you are. You can definitely kick the MCATs ass.

 

[littlealex]

That is very daring offensive rediculous step to call my 7 years or any1 else's years a cake walk. You don't even know me, or know my record. I would be very careful before making such comments and dragging peopl'e career and life through the mud.

I've resisted the urge but it really is bugging me a bit. It is ridiculous. The second letter is an "i."

And I agree that on one should assume that another's education is subpar or easy. However, the point he's trying to make is that not all colleges are equal. In fact, not every student at the same college with a 3.5 GPA had gotten the same amount of information out of the class.

MCAT aims to equalize that by providing some form of standardization. You're not competing against the test, you're competing against OTHER PEOPLE. Sure, a question may be impossible, and if everyone gets it wrong, it won't matter.

That being said, you may have gotten a hard question right while 90% of the test takers missed the problem, and that'll give you a higher score. So no, it is not a difficult test. You just have to do better then everyone else, and sometimes to do that we have to work harder then those who are naturally good at taking tests.

There's no reason anyone is magically "better" at test taking. Why is it that they got the question right? MCAT does measure something.

 

[atalkinghead]

Yes, because this test compares you to others. Maybe your 7 years were a cake walk at X college with a 4.0. And individual Y got murdered with a 3.2 and his institute is more rigorous.... The MCAT cuts out ambiguity of the GPA scale, I think

I agree with you. Even at my school, there's a BIG difference between the O. Chem professors. I had a professor who refused to curve any exam, no matter how low the average was. This made the class work extremely hard, and we actually understood the information. However, I had friends whose O.Chem exams had massive curves and did not have to understand the information completely. In the end, I feel that I learned the information way better, even though my friends got a better grade than me in the "easy" O. Chem classes. After O. Chem I and II, my GPA fell from a 3.7 to a 3.5!!

I recently talked with the former dean of admissions at my school, and he said of course the grade in the class matters because it shows hard work, but the MCAT demonstrates to him that you actually learned it. So, yes a good GPA shows you're a hard worker, but the MCAT shows you're competent in the subjects. That is why both are looked when determining cognitive skills (hard work + intelligence).

O.P: Do you feel ready for the MCAT? If not, can you take time off to study for it?

 

[NRAI2001]

I understand what you are saying, but I have verified with many sources that medical admission committees wieght more than 60% on the MCAT, WHICH IN MY OPINION IS PROPOSTRROUS AND INCOMPREHENSIBLE. Like you said, 4 years worth of hard work, projects, tests, and struggle (in my case 7 years college) and yet 1 EXAM on 1 SINGLE DAY gets to decide whether we are smart and deserve to go to graduate school. Logical reasoning here just does not add up and makes me sick in the stomach!!!!

Or one my think that after 7 years of studies...the mcat would be not too difficult.

THe mcat is not a difficult exam.

Med school is faaaaaaaar more difficult than the stupid mcat. Mcat is nothing compared to med school cirriculum. Basically imagine how much your studying now and extend it for the next 4 to 8 years.

 

[elektroshok]

Or one my think that after 7 years of studies...the mcat would be not too difficult.

THe mcat is not a difficult exam.

Med school is faaaaaaaar more difficult than the stupid mcat. Mcat is nothing compared to med school cirriculum. Basically imagine how much your studying now and extend it for the next 4 to 8 years.

No one is saying med school isnt hard.. but IMO the fact that you are learning things for your future profession is worth it.

And yes, there will be some dry, boring stuff in med school that you just have to suck it up and learn, but come on, who the hell likes studying translational motion and being able to apply it in novel situations?

 

[Corpus Callosum]

Thanks for your concern, and for reminding me of my reality: been jailed in my room for 5 months, 1 more to go, doing nothing more than studying, reframed from flight instructing making 45 $/hr, wow I am supposed to be happy, right!!!, prison would have offered me more freedom than the 1 i am in now, just hate organic chemistry and chemitry, but thanks for reminding me that I have to study). yes I will take the test and will do fine, (except for maybe VR) and I will make it to medical school, however that is all besides the point and hardly the issue here. does me doing all this make the process more or less just? in my oppinion no. See,this is an educated debate, conducted (the aim at least) in a friendly scientific manner to try to gather people's input and oppinion, there is no need for sensitivity and frustration, no 1 is trying to take the mcat away from you,
This is analogous to a patient who is trying to debate his diagnosis with you to further understand its roots, all you would say is: just shut up and go take what I am prescribing you and don't keep complaining!!!! I can't see that patient ever coming back to you(lets hope that never happens). See I think the attitude here is as critical as any other, (maybe more so) in becoming a physician, you know my organic chemitry professor told me once, premed students have the worst attitude of all (his oppinion, I am just citing). Do not prove him right!
and every once in a while responding and engaging in this debate and talking to you guys, no its not waste of time, my pleasure,

OP:

You seriously need to stop sending so much time complaining. I swear if you spent half the time you've spent complaining on here to go out and practice your score will go up. If you are getting 10's and 11's in the sciences and can pull an 8 or so in Verbal, you'll be fine. Just concentrate on doing better because that's the important thing, not arguing about the test's validity ad nauseaum.

 

[NRAI2001]

No one is saying med school isnt hard.. but IMO the fact that you are learning things for your future profession is worth it.

And yes, there will be some dry, boring stuff in med school that you just have to suck it up and learn, but come on, who the hell likes studying translational motion and being able to apply it in novel situations?

You ll be surprised how much of physics, g chem, o chem actually comes back and has application in med school. Acid/bases, solubility, fluids, potential energy, electrons, resistance, capacitors, circuits......are all studied and applied in medicine.